Was this too harsh?

[Halcyon]

I have been trying for over a year to get my older son to be more organized with his work, particularly his completed work. He often doesn't date it, doesn't place it in the binder without reminding, leaves looseleaf sheets of math or Latin around the house. 

 

This morning I found his Thursday science assignment under his bed, unlabelled, undated and obviously not put in his completed works binder. I told him again that he was old enough to know to put his work in his binder when he was done with it (this had also happened Friday when he left his Latin work on the dining room table, and I reminded him he must put it away, labelled, dated etc or  it would not be considered complete) and told him that he gets an F for this work. (really, we don't keep grades, but he knows what an F means and he was upset),

 

DH considered this to be too harsh. "He finished the work, right?" is what he said. But in my book, the work isn't finished if it's under his bed, undated and unmarked. I told him that if he was in "regular" school and his teacher asked him for his assignment on the due date and he realized he had left it under his bed (or realized, at least, that it wasn't in his binder) he would get a failing grade. But DH thought i went overboard.

 

Truly, I think an 11 year old should be able to remember to put his work in the binder when it's completed, without being reminded every single day. I am trying to get him to take more ownership over his work, be more responsible. He does get his work done, but the fact that he is disorganized is a real problem. Oh, and this follows on the heels of him losing his piano piece for this week because he didn't put it in his piano binder, so we have no idea where it is and he can't practice the piece this week.

 

Are you moms of 11 year olds still CONSTANTLY reminding your child to file their work properly, and are they constantly losing work? Am i being too harsh? 

[Desert Strawberry]

My kid is 10. He is very good about putting everything away. However, all school stuff lives in the dining room. We have no loose papers. Notebooks only. The lesson isn't over until everything is neatly back on the shelf. My 7yo is still getting the hang of it, but it's his job to make sure the table is cleaned and cleared after every lesson and meal. We don't move on until everything is put away. 

 

Why are his papers loose? I would bind them in some way. 

Why are they in his room? Designate a specific area for all school work to live. The bedroom is an organizational wasteland. Don't allow anything in there. All schoolwork should be done and stored in a public area. 

 

Name and date should be on the paper BEFORE he begins, not after. This is part of preparation, not part of the assignment. However, if papers are bound, there is no need to label every single sheet of paper. 

 

It sounds like he needs some organizational training. Create a system that eliminates confusion, and enforce it. He will catch on quickly. 

[Coco_Clark]

I don't have an 11 year old but I don't consider that harsh. Not that home educators should style themselves after public schools but you are right, a public 6th grade would require a student to turn in his work in order to get credit. And they do that for good reason. Later when he is in college and in the workplace no one will care how perfectly he executes his assignments if he's so disorganized that he loses them. It's an important life skill. I would even argue that it's more important than the Science and Latin that he's losing.

[fraidycat]

I don't think it's too harsh.

 

My 11 year old is disorganized (read: a complete slob) as well. BUT, it is her personality because my 7 year old is very different (more organized).

 

So yes, I need to constantly remind my 11 year old, but I truly believe that this is something she needs to learn, sometimes with harsh consequences as her "teacher". There are endless books/websites/conferences that cost big money for adults to learn this stuff because they didn't as children. I'd much rather she learn it now. It is a necessary Life Skill, IMO.

 

As a matter of fact, since I'm still waiting for our actual school books to arrive - but we start school on Tuesday, my focus next week is on Organization, Character, and Math. In that order.

[quark]

Sorry...I know it can be frustrating. :grouphug:  I agree with the pp about having a designated area for studies and to try to avoid the bedroom but I'm speaking from the PoV of a mom with an only child who prefers to work in the family room anyway. We keep the bedroom for downtime only.

 

Perhaps you've already tried several things. Here are some ideas anyway.

 

Son forgets to date his papers sometimes too (but I forgot to add, getting much better at it...this year has been easier so far...executive function skills definitely improving here). Depending on the class, some of his work is looseleaf, some of it in notebooks. He has one 2-inch binder per subject (larger ones for subjects with lots of paper) so there isn't a complete work binder but several binders with clearly marked spines. For the looseleaf stuff he is working on every single day, I give him pocket folders and these are kept on his desk using a wooden desk organizer. Each pocket folder can hold up to about 1-2 months worth of work. This way he's not handling unwieldy binders all the time. Once the chapters are completed, they are filed away in the subject binder. It's just a little easier to handle it this way.

 

Again like the pp said, all work is cleared from the desk before he is done for the day. In fact he does it subject to subject. Physics done, desk cleared, logic done, desk cleared and so on. The only time he doesn't use his desk is when we are reading together. For note-taking, I am using 5x8-inch size post-it pads with post-its stuck to the pages of the book. It helps keep everything in one place (in the book we are using itself). Once done, we unstick the post-its and either recycle them or stick them to a piece of letter sized printer paper which is then filed in the appropriate binder.

 

I have to run but I'll add more later if I think of anything.

 

FWIW, maybe the F was a little harsh but I totally get the frustration and also the lack of support from DH. Lol, my DH is not here most days to see the disorganization so he always takes son's side. But when DH is the one doing the leading/ facilitating he gets frustrated by lack of organization too. I have to bite my tongue from saying "I told you so". :D

[Desert Strawberry]

To answer the original question, no, I don't think it's harsh.

However, it isn't effective either. You haven't taught him anything. You have only punished him, which is satisfying in the moment, but doesn't improve his odds of being able to follow through in the future. The system still doesn't work. He will have the same problems next week, and he will continue to make the same errors. 

If you want him to develop better skills, you have to give him a better framework. 

 

[Carrie12345]

I have an 11yo and 10yo. Binders were a disaster for us.

 

We haven't started our year yet, so I can't claim this works, BUT... I've taken all their papers (including filler and graph paper) for several days and Proclicked them. Nothing to take out, nothing to put in, completely portable. You loose one page, you loose it all, and then we can talk about Fs, lol.

[Annie Laurie]

My 11 yr old never files things like she's supposed to, she's very disorganized in general. She shrugged it off when she didn't have a paper to show me last week, because she did do it, it was just lost. She lost a privilege as a result, because it seemed logical that if she hadn't fulfilled her responsibilites for the day, then she hadn't earned the privliege. I guess that's one negative about hsing, there is no motivation to meet deadlines and turn in work like there is in school, where you'd earn a bad grade or face embarrasment in front of your peers when you didn't have your assignment ready.

 

I do try to set her up for success in the first place though. There is a place for everything and all she has to do is put it under the correct tab in her file box. I do remind her and try to manage my expectations.

[briansmama]

I'd look at the overall organization of lesson work and where lessons take place. My oldest is only 9 1/2 yrs, but so far he does his work in the designated lesson place, not his room, so I can't see this being an issue for us for that reason alone. Is there a table he works at? Do you make it a point to review his work after he's worked on it?

 

I don't see how giving him an F helps him learn organizational skills, which is all this is about. I think it's great that he actually cares what grade you give him. I'd start a binder of some sort or even a tray where he goes to hand in his work after each lesson, even if it's unfinished. I'd explain that after each lesson period he needs to file his work there, even if he plans to continue working on it the next day.

[Chrysalis Academy]

:grouphug: My dd10 forgets to date, label, and put papers where they go, despite constant reminders.  It's frustrating for me, but I am trying to just kindly yet firmly remind her each time.  I figure eventually it's gotta sink in, right?  

 

I'm reading a really excellent book right now, Surviving Your Child's Adolescence by Carl Pickhardt.  He writes that early adolescence (which he defines as ~9-13) is a stage characterized by personal disorganization, a negative mind-set, and early experimentation.  The encouraging bit is that he sees each of these phases as serving a function in the adolescent's growth.  So he says that this phase of personal disorganization serves to loosen the grip of childhood functioning & habits, which creates the opportunity for a more complex system of self-management to develop.  We'll see!  :001_rolleyes: Hope springs eternal, I guess.

[TracyP]

I don't think you were too harsh. This is a really important organizational skill.

 

But I think you need to back up and teach him how to do this. I don't know how you want to do that but it will probably involve saying "and what did you do with your completed ______" several times through the day. My dd is good at puttting her loose papers where they belong in the binder, but it started with me walking her through it every time until it was automatic.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ds16 has organizational problems that I think are part of a bigger executive function problem.  He is only now at age 16 being consistent about getting things turned into the correct place.  It wasn't a matter for him of not wanting to comply before, he just could not keep his mind organized enough to follow through with physical organization of his materials.  

[Chrysalis Academy]

I don't think you were too harsh. This is a really important organizational skill.

 

But I think you need to back up and teach him how to do this. I don't know how you want to do that but it will probably involve saying "and what did you do with your completed ______" several times through the day. My dd is good at puttting her loose papers where they belong in the binder, but it started with me walking her through it every time until it was automatic.

 

 

I think this is it - you have to help them develop the habit you want them to have by reminding them EVERY TIME for awhile.  It's excruciating.

 

Is there a prominent place you can put a reminder note?  My girls used to always forget to replace the toilet paper roll, and it drove my dh crazy.  Finally I put a note above the roll.  It says "Remember: when you finish a roll, recycle the old on and put on a new roll.  Love, the Management"  and since then, they hardly ever forget.  It was so simple, yet surprisingly effective.

 

It shows me that they aren't doing it on purpose, or to make me mad, or because they are slobs, or any of the other frustrating things that pop into my head.  They just forget.  They don't mean to, but they do.  So, they have to be reminded until the new behavior becomes a habit.

[quark]

I'm back...mulling about this while prepping food. Have you spoken to your son about the importance of keeping his work organized? This was one of the things I did (out of sheer frustration at the time actually, but in as calm a voice as possible) that I think really helped it all click for my son, hence why he's better at it this year. I gave him concrete examples/ role playing/ situations where showing his organized work vs disorganization would be highly beneficial...not to me, but for him. And I had to do it several times throughout the years.

 

We set the system in place quite young, when he was 8 years old and started needing dedicated notebooks and started using looseleaf paper for outsourced classes. I made sure we had the right tools and from your recent homeschool room posts I realize you probably have some of those tools in place already. In our situation: designated areas for keeping work, where pocket folders should go, availability of folders and other materials if he runs out of them or a clearly marked temporary holding place to put things. Explaining WHY dating his work is important, keeping it all neat and tidy is important, not just for my record-keeping but for his own future needs, when he needs to refer to something. Most of his subject from 8 years old are the type that really and directly build upon each other so it was important for that purpose at least that he write the date to go back and refer to something from an earlier date. It took 2+ years really to really help it all sink in and now this year, for it to actually go much more smoothly.

 

About the F again, it would break my son's heart and that's why I think it's a little harsh. He isn't doing anything at instructional level atm, all are at various challenge levels and he works very hard at them. So if the work graded F was something your DS put a lot of his heart into then I think it might be too harsh.

 

ETA: A huge yes to Rose's toilet paper reminder idea. For years, I've been drawing little illustrations and posting them on the bathroom door, on his chest of drawers, above his study desk etc. E.g. happy face with a "close the door" thought bubble coming out. And stuck to his bathroom mirror protected in a clear plastic sheet: a series of cartoons showing a stick figure boy staying in one spot and brushing his teeth above the sink so drops of blue toothpaste don't stain his carpeted bathroom, then same boy with bushy hair combing his hair neatly before coming down for breakfast...

[AimeeM]

Well, we do have to constantly remind, but dd12 is dyslexic (and with it, disorganized).

She's attending a special private school this year and they have a binder system because of this common issue (common at least among dyslexics - not sure about neurotypical children that age). The binder for each subject ensures that the child never needs to take anything out of the binder. For items passed out in class, all sheets are already hole punched by the teacher and they oversee the placing in the binder.

Autumn's social studies binder, for example, is divided into sections (they did this at the school; we didn't do it at home) - vocabulary, notes, assignment/syllabus, maps, worksheets, etc. I have to sign next to the date on the calendar tracker to show that I saw any homework.

For assignments done on notebook paper, there is a visual aid in all classrooms that prompt the children with what to write on their papers and what to do with it when they finish the assignment.

 

I'm not sure if you can take anything from that, but thought I'd put it out there.

[Jen500]

I would switch to notebooks. It will make keeping his work organized much easier.

I also think it's a bit harder when you homeschool to keep loose papers together--home life blends in with school work. Binders did not work at our house. :001_smile:

[Mandy in TN]

Well, huh, I don't give grades. I don't care if anything is dated. I hardly save anything. I have myself been known to explain things on napkins, receipts, random scraps of paper from my purse, and even by writing on my own hand if I am in a hurry. We don't have loose scraps of paper of school work that i plan to save. If I see a loose scrap of paper, I throw it away. I do glance at it and holler to someone if it looks important, but I wouldn't consider yesterday's math work important. I would toss it in the garbage. If it was important, then I guess he would need to do it again.

 

So, I guess I am saying that I would go for the natural consequence, but I would never give an F to an 11yo for forgetting to file a piece of paper. Why in the world would you send an 11yo boy to his bedroom with loose sheets of paper unless you planned for him to not leave the room without handing them directly to you. lol That just sounds like setting him up and then saying neener-neener-neener for doing exactly what you would expect an 11yo boy to do. Jeez, even if I were going to work on a loose sheet of paper that I wanted to save (I can't imagine doing so, but if I did), then I would work right beside where I wanted to place it. I wouldn't traipse all over the house with it, so I can't imagine requiring a child to do so. If for some reason he needs to work away from where you want things kept, then why don't you give him a pocket folder to carry around. Then, at the end of the school day, he can just turn in the pocket folder. Instead of punishing him, you could reward him for every day that he turns in his folder without being reminded. Every day he turns it in he puts a marble in a jar. When the jar is full, he gets to select a movie from redbox or go get an ice cream or something.

 

Yeah, agreeing with your dh, too harsh-

Mandy

[Coco_Clark]

I love all the suggestions about how to better facilitate organization. And while I stand by my previous statement that the F wasn't harsh I'm totally hearing how it also wasn't helpful. I wonder if a more "natural consequences" punishment would be better in the future. A calm, " well, I need that assignment from you so I suppose you can either find it or start over." Wasting valuable time searching for papers or rewriting things you've already done is a quick motivator. Especially if you are right beside him setting up systems and giving tips to prevent it from happening again.

 

My 5 year old (4 at the time) had several weeks of missing play dates, park excursions, ect because he could NEVER find his shoes. They would be in the craziest places and with two other kids i could not spend all morning searching for them. So, Whenever possible it was a calm "well, we can't leave without shoes so I suppose we are staying home." Often my husband was at work so it meant we ALL had to stay. It was a rough time but you know the kid always puts his shoes next to the front door now.

[...................]

I think that if a student doesn't bring a paper in in school, that student would probably not get an F on the first day.  In 6th grade, a student probably would get five points off per day that it is late.  In high school it was usually ten points off per day that the paper or assignment was late.  

 

Secondly, I think that what you did was too arbitrary.  FIrst off, you don't give grades.  So, saying that he gets an F does nothing but make him feel bad. Which, you know, isn't the greatest parenting method.  

 

I am more inclined to take your gut instinct (this kid really needs to learn organization) and combine it with some clearly defined...something.  Either consequences, or grades plus consequences, etc.

 

So, it's not a big deal, but from now on, I would look at the completed work folder at 3:00 every day and if the work is not in there, the child either cannot play, or can't go to sports, or can't whatever until the work is in there.  By 8th grade, he could lose the priviledge completely for the day, rather than just running and getting it, and then going out to play.  

 

My son is the same age, and I have had to really work with him this year to remind him to learn to keep dates, keep everything in one spot, etc.  Our evaluator in our old state was very concerned because she was totally unable to check his math last year, except the tests, because it was so disorderly.  She explained to him the importance of orderliness, dates, etc.  NOw he is doing great!  One thing that has helped my son is that he really doesn't have any loose papers.  Another thing which helped is that each subject has its own individual notebook.  So all his work is still in the workbooks or written in the notebooks, and then the notebooks get put away throughout the day.  

[...................]

I just wanted to add, that my kids don't go to their rooms with loose individual papers.  They would lose them too.  

[happypamama]

I agree that it wasn't too harsh, but it also didn't necessarily teach him a way to avoid it in the future. My kids know that their work isn't considered to be done if they haven't dated it and put it in the appropriate place (books back in the workboxes, anything written on in my one specific inbox). It took some time to train them, and they still sometimes need reminders, at 8 and 11.

 

I look at it this way: it doesn't matter if my DH does a bang-up amazing job on a proposal for a job, if he doesn't then send the proposal to the client, and he doesn't get paid if the job isn't completed. And it isnt helpful if I buy groceries but forget to make sure that they get put away. Following through with all parts of a job is an important skill, and this is a good place for your son to have a minor failure that makes him more conscientious in the long run. But I would also do what I could to help him succeed - reminders for a while, clearly visible spot to put his work, whatever.

[jenn-]

If this was an ongoing issue with my DD, I would have balled up the assignment and made her redo it. So your son got off easy in my opinion.

[texasmama]

Haven't read the other replies.

 

I don't think it is too harsh, and I am loosey goosey.  ;)  There are no "real" consequences to the F, just emotional ones so I think it is a "cheap" lesson.

 

I just had to ask my 10 year old son to put his co-op bag away instead of in the big middle of the walkway of the living area where it has sat for over 24 hours.  My sons (10 and 12) are sharing assigned independent readers this year, and they managed to lose The King's Fifth, their current assigned reader.  They are less than halfway through.  Organization is a problem here.  They do mostly keep their co-op assignments together and turn them in, as required, though, so I have hope that they are capable of being responsible when it involves a party other than mom.

[Candid]

Since you don't keep grades, I'm not sure how this can be too harsh. 

[boscopup]

When I was in school, if we turned in a paper late, we just got points off, not an F.

 

I agree that you need to change the system so he can succeed. Also, some things really do take constant reminders from us parents before they sink in. I can't count how many times my parents reminded me to turn the light off when leaving a room, but you know what? I'm pretty good about it now. ;)

[Tenaj]

If this was an ongoing issue with my DD, I would have balled up the assignment and made her redo it. So your son got off easy in my opinion.

This is what I was going to say so I was glad someone else said it first.  In fact, this week, my 9yods had a writing assignment that he was having an attitude about (one paragraph) and did it very sloppily and was being very disrespectful when proofreading it with me.  I reminded him as I sent him off to make the final copy that he needed to double-space the writing.  In fact, I said it three times but he was so busy being obnoxious that he ignored it.  I am really mean, because I was at the table and saw him doing it single-spaced but didn't say anything.

 

He handed it into our grading box and I immediately picked it up and pointed out his error, crumpled the paper and he had to sit and redo it.  Harsh, yes, but I'm guessing it will be a long time before he purposefully ignores instructions again.   Since this has been an ongoing problem, I have no regrets and am hopeful that next week we won't have the same problem.

[Ellie]

I have been trying for over a year to get my older son to be more organized with his work, particularly his completed work. He often doesn't date it, doesn't place it in the binder without reminding, leaves looseleaf sheets of math or Latin around the house. 

 

This morning I found his Thursday science assignment under his bed, unlabelled, undated and obviously not put in his completed works binder. I told him again that he was old enough to know to put his work in his binder when he was done with it (this had also happened Friday when he left his Latin work on the dining room table, and I reminded him he must put it away, labelled, dated etc or  it would not be considered complete) and told him that he gets an F for this work. (really, we don't keep grades, but he knows what an F means and he was upset),

 

DH considered this to be too harsh. "He finished the work, right?" is what he said. But in my book, the work isn't finished if it's under his bed, undated and unmarked. I told him that if he was in "regular" school and his teacher asked him for his assignment on the due date and he realized he had left it under his bed (or realized, at least, that it wasn't in his binder) he would get a failing grade. But DH thought i went overboard.

 

Truly, I think an 11 year old should be able to remember to put his work in the binder when it's completed, without being reminded every single day. I am trying to get him to take more ownership over his work, be more responsible. He does get his work done, but the fact that he is disorganized is a real problem. Oh, and this follows on the heels of him losing his piano piece for this week because he didn't put it in his piano binder, so we have no idea where it is and he can't practice the piece this week.

 

Are you moms of 11 year olds still CONSTANTLY reminding your child to file their work properly, and are they constantly losing work? Am i being too harsh? 

 

No, I don't think it was too harsh. And I say this as a died-in-the-wool unschooler. :D

 

You have been working with him *for over a year.* You are not asking him to do anything difficult or complicated. He *is* old enough to remember to date his completed assignments and put them in a notebook. It is *not* complete if you don't have it in your hand (i.e., in the notebook).

 

You're probably doing this already, but I would make sure that you are providing guidance and not relying on his memory. Goodness knows that people of all ages, not just those who are 11yo, have problems with remembering to do things they should, lol.  That might look like "constant reminders," but maybe in the form of allowing specific times of the day to take care of paperwork to be filed and whatnot, KWIM?

[EKS]

My 11yo son needs constant help with organization.  And when my now 17yo was 11, he also needed constant help.  Some kids are naturally organized and some...aren't.  The ones who aren't need major help for several years.

[...................]

This is what I was going to say so I was glad someone else said it first.  In fact, this week, my 9yods had a writing assignment that he was having an attitude about (one paragraph) and did it very sloppily and was being very disrespectful when proofreading it with me.  I reminded him as I sent him off to make the final copy that he needed to double-space the writing.  In fact, I said it three times but he was so busy being obnoxious that he ignored it.  I am really mean, because I was at the table and saw him doing it single-spaced but didn't say anything.

 

He handed it into our grading box and I immediately picked it up and pointed out his error, crumpled the paper and he had to sit and redo it.  Harsh, yes, but I'm guessing it will be a long time before he purposefully ignores instructions again.   Since this has been an ongoing problem, I have no regrets and am hopeful that next week we won't have the same problem.

 

I see this as totally different than Halcyon's son, because your son was having a nasty attitude and needed an adjustment.

 

Her son is forgetting follow through.  

 

Both are serious, but in a completely different way.

[Halcyon]

Thanks all for your responses!

 

Just to clarify, we have a system in place. Papers are to be placed in the three ring binder, most work is done in comp books but some is not, so it needs to be filed. There is a very specific basket that books are to be placed in at the end of the day, and 3 ring binders are placed beside it. Each child has only two binders:one for coop, and one for home.

 

Ds11 knows what he is supposed to do. Nonetheless I remind him DAILY what to do "do not forget the date and label the section you are working on at the top of the page" and if it is a topic that is being completed on a loose sheet, such as a printed lab report, or something he has typed and printed, it is to go directly into the binder. We have been working on this for a long time, and I think it's a combo of absent mindedness, thinking "when I finish the last question i am done" mindset...I have to continue to drill home the idea that "done" is when the books are put away, supplies are back in the cubbies, loose sheets are placed in the folder. This also happens when books are removed from the house. He will forget and leave them in the car, or at my husbands office, or my office, or at afterschool, simply because he isnt really thinking about it, which seems to me that he doesn't want to or isn't able to take responsibility for his belongings. We had this problem with hockey gear too, until the coach reminded him that washing, organizing and collecting his gear after games was HIS repsonsibility, not his mothers. So I know he is capable..his coach was clear with the team that they needed to be responsible for their gear, making sure it was in their bag after games, and voila, he hasn't forgotten a piece of gear since.

 

I just don't want anyone to think that I haven't given him a simple system to work with, or that I haven't been guiding him for over a year on how to store, track and organize his school stuff.

[Halcyon]

Oh, and he was in his room doing his assignment because he wanted quiet and younger was working with me on some challenging math problems. Normally he doesn't do school work in his room, though.

[Mom0012]

I don't think it's too harsh.  Honestly, maybe being a little strict about something like this once may get him to actually do what he needs to do.  I often have to remind myself of that.  I am with my kids all day and don't want them to be upset and I sure don't want to be the one to upset them.  But, when they don't do what I ask, then I wind up being the one upset, especially if it is a repeated problem.  I have found it is easiest on us all when I can just suck it up and "stand tough" on whatever the issue is that I think is important.  Unfortunately, sometimes that is so much more effective than just being sweet and letting things slide.

 

And I agree some kids probably aren't ready to be organized at this age.  Only you know your child, but I have to say my children sometimes surprise me when they know I'm not going to let something slide.  And then there are other times when it just becomes clear that they are not ready for a particular skill or responsibility.

[goldberry]

DD14 has always been disorganized.  We have been working on it for the last several years (constant reminders, very structured systems, etc.)  I explained to her before this year started that I will be cracking down on it, and if a paper cannot be found it is going to be done again. I also will not be assisting in looking for any lost papers.  She can find it, or she does it again.  (So I guess that's more of a natural consequence type thing.)

 

In many areas, DD has not found a way to remember something UNTIL there was a consequence, and often a serious consequence, attached to it.  Example, she kept 'forgetting" to do her chores in the morning of feeding and watering the cats.  This was ridiculously inconsistent for over a year.  When I would realize she had not done it, I made her come back and do it, every single time.  Finally, I just said ok, if this is not done by 10 am, you are grounded from all electronics for two days.  She forgot one more time, then that was it.  Miraculously, she now remembers every day.

 

So, I don't think "punishment" doesn't teach them anything..for some kids, who aren't good at self-motivating, it just gives them a motivation.  Maybe it's true they aren't doing it "out of the goodness of their heart' at that point, but at least they are learning a habit of responsibility.

[Ellie]

Thanks all for your responses!

 

Just to clarify, we have a system in place. Papers are to be placed in the three ring binder, most work is done in comp books but some is not, so it needs to be filed. There is a very specific basket that books are to be placed in at the end of the day, and 3 ring binders are placed beside it. Each child has only two binders:one for coop, and one for home.

 

Ds11 knows what he is supposed to do. Nonetheless I remind him DAILY what to do "do not forget the date and label the section you are working on at the top of the page" and if it is a topic that is being completed on a loose sheet, such as a printed lab report, or something he has typed and printed, it is to go directly into the binder. We have been working on this for a long time, and I think it's a combo of absent mindedness, thinking "when I finish the last question i am done" mindset...I have to continue to drill home the idea that "done" is when the books are put away, supplies are back in the cubbies, loose sheets are placed in the folder. This also happens when books are removed from the house. He will forget and leave them in the car, or at my husbands office, or my office, or at afterschool, simply because he isnt really thinking about it, which seems to me that he doesn't want to or isn't able to take responsibility for his belongings. We had this problem with hockey gear too, until the coach reminded him that washing, organizing and collecting his gear after games was HIS repsonsibility, not his mothers. So I know he is capable..his coach was clear with the team that they needed to be responsible for their gear, making sure it was in their bag after games, and voila, he hasn't forgotten a piece of gear since.

 

I just don't want anyone to think that I haven't given him a simple system to work with, or that I haven't been guiding him for over a year on how to store, track and organize his school stuff.

 

I knew you were working with him. :-)

[lmrich]

I think throwing it away would be harsh, but effective. Saying it is an F is no biggie. No name; it is a zero. You are good.

[Mena]

I don't think you're being too harsh. I expect my kids to keep track of their own assignments and papers by age 9 or so. 

 

I don't give my middle schoolers reminders throughout the day. Instead, we have a quick "check-in" at the end of the day, where I glance over their daily work and take in any assignments that need to be graded. They know they're not finished until they've checked in with me and I've told them to go play. If an assignment is missing, they aren't finished for the day until it's in my hand - either because they found it or did it again. For missing dates or sloppy work, I tell them what to fix, then walk away to do something else. They sit there until I'm ready to check their work again (I take my time ;)). They do go through phases of being more forgetful and disorganized than usual, but this seems to keep the phases from lasting too long. 

[BoZeeCo's Mom]

I don't think it was too harsh.  My kids have to keep their stuff organized and cleaned up all the time.  I agree with finding one place in one room where everything can live.  Maybe having just a file folder he can dump all his papers in together, and on Friday he can have a filing moment?  

[Desert Strawberry]

Oh, and he was in his room doing his assignment because he wanted quiet and younger was working with me on some challenging math problems. Normally he doesn't do school work in his room, though.

You have a system. That is good :) but it is breaking down somewhere. He needs training and accountability. A system doesn't do any good if he isn't using it. 

What I would do : 

All work is done at the table. If your work doesn't  consistently make it out of your room ,you may not take it in there. Or anywhere else.

Every assignment has to be checked by me. It's not finished until I say it's finished and I see it inside the binder. 

We do not move on until everything is cleaned up and put away properly . No lunch , no breaks, no reading , maybe no potty. You need something? Sure. Put everything away first.

Appropriate consequences are necessary. You can repeat yourself till you turn blue. If he doesn't have relevant motivation , it's just your preference. My oldest uses a token economy to earn electronics time.  My second is wholly unmotivated by this. He responds better to natural consequences . You can have lunch when everything is put away.

Training is hard work and time consuming. You will have to put some energy into it. It will pay off. 

My last bit of advice - it is his responsibility to prove himself. It is not your job to lead him through this. Avoid telling. Ask. "Is your work done ? Did you show it to me ? Is it where it belongs? What do you need to do next ?" Let him think through the steps. They will become part of his thought process.

[Mukmuk]

Urb, so I'm not alone? I too have cute cartoons stuck all over the house, particularly in his room. And laminated reminders on popsicle sticks for when there isn't a nearby wall. 

 

We don't give grades, but frankly, an F is better than when I've lost my cool and said more than I wanted! 

 

We have a filing system too, so this is no help to you.

 

Ds and I just had a chat about this last Friday evening (no dating, no filing, no clearing up after each subject, no capital letters too, which I hoped had internalized despite the fact that he's dysgraphic). I'm asking him to come up with his own solution. He knows why he should do it, because he's very proud of his work and likes to look at his bulging portfolio (using lots of paper helps!), but the flesh is weak. He's proposing a sticker reward system which we've had before because he really loves cute stickers. I had stopped it when he seemingly improved, but eh well, I've learnt for a while now that kids slide back and forth all the time.

 

I do think from reading this thread that I shall stop saying "you're old enough now... ". I've used that since he turned 9 and it hasn't work at all. The words sound grating to me even as I say it *cringing at my most recent memory*. I also now recall I have a laminated cue card that tells him what to check off for each piece of work (dates, capital letters, fullstops etc) that I should have him run through daily. 

 

This thread is a great reminder to me. Thank you!!

[PeterPan]

You've probably already resolved this, as there are 40 posts in the thread that I'm not bothering to read, but have you thought about eliminating loose paper?  Get the book Smart But Scattered.  It seems you have a Mom/organization problem.  

[Alte Veste Academy]

(Perhaps as a means of self-comfort :tongue_smilie:) I vote that this is perfectly normal for the age. Frustrating but normal. As DH reassures me about half of the wackadoodle things my boys do, "Yeah, we have to fix it, but it's normal." That said, I know firsthand how even normal kid behavior can make you want to pull your hair out and scream. Personally, while I understand your frustration (since, as you say, you have been working on this for a year), your post actually makes me sigh a bit in relief. Becoming organized and responsible certainly isn't something that has been happening anything close to "overnight" here. It is a (LONG!) process. Longer even than a year. :D I think baby-stepping kids to personal management is to be expected, even while it gets really old. :lol:

 

I would absolutely let him continue to work in the quiet of his room since he actually is doing his work. Seriously, kudos to him for not getting distracted by Legos, books, his toenails... LOL That would be normal too, I think, so really, I rank your DS superior in the focus department. An A to balance out his F! :tongue_smilie:

 

Sounds like you have a good system except that he is forgetting to actually use it when he finishes his work. Have you considered a daily checklist with "put x, y, z in basket" as the last check box for the day? That is what works best for my oldest now. My kids are color-coded and DS's daily checklist is printed off on bright green paper. He can't miss it, and he loves checking off boxes as much as I do. Your checklist could include a box for checking that all work is dated/labeled. I have also considered getting him one of those storage clipboards so that all loose papers can be contained when he works outside of the schoolroom. (And DS is a perfectionist so no way would bound notebooks be a good move for him.)

 

Anyway, I think it's like manners as far as life skills go. Teaching it is a years long process, and half the time you think you have utterly and completely failed. (Or is that just me? LOL) But really, I bet you've come a long way; you probably just don't see it because you are so distracted by what still needs work. Just like a mom...

[PeterPan]

 (And DS is a perfectionist so no way would bound notebooks be a good move for him.)

 

 

Bottles of whiteout?  

[MerryAtHope]

Ds11 knows what he is supposed to do. Nonetheless I remind him DAILY what to do "do not forget the date and label the section you are working on at the top of the page" and if it is a topic that is being completed on a loose sheet, such as a printed lab report, or something he has typed and printed, it is to go directly into the binder.

 

 

One thing I have found helpful as an intermediary step when I have given instructions on something for a long time: Stop reminding and start asking. At first be more detailed:  What do you need to put on your paper? (or even, what goes at the top of your paper?" when he turns it in. Have him tell you.

 

Then get more vague: Is your paper complete? (if he says yes, say, "what makes it complete?") If he says something like, "I answered all the questions," then say, "anything else?"

 

Get him to the point where he can verbalize to you each time.

 

Another thing that I find helpful is to pre-coach.  "Today, what will you put on all of your papers?"

 

Another helpful thing is to put the responsibility in their lap: "What are you going to do to help you remember to do xyz?"

 

Part of this is meta-cognition--learning about how we learn. You want to help your child learn to recognize what helps and what doesn't. Recognizing it in this situation allows your child to start transferring the concept to other situations.  "Oh, I helped myself remember xyz in this one situation. I can use a similar strategy to help myself learn/remember abc in this new situation." 

 

But at young ages, they still need us to talk them through and see how to begin this kind of transference.

 

Lots and lots of adults struggle with organization and remembering things, so I think it's more helpful to recognize that this isn't just an "age" thing (he/she is "old enough...") but to recognize that it's more difficult for some and work harder on training. A year at age 10-11 seems like a lot but in the vast scope--it may not be.

 

I think a helpful consequence can be useful too, but if it's something I've been training on for awhile, I think it's better to let the child know ahead of time that it's coming.  "Starting next week, if you don't do xyz, abc will happen." I think an "F" in this case (surprise, don't keep grades) could make a child feel overly negatively about himself (some take any failure and internalize it to "I'm a failure")--which may be why your husband viewed it as too harsh. Perhaps talk through with your husband what WOULD be a helpful and appropriate consequence to use alongside training methods to guide your child into greater responsibility. Something you can both agree on.

 

I think freedoms are also helpful as a training method.  For example...a child who doesn't regularly turn assignments in correctly might not have the freedom to decide "I'm done with school, I can do a freetime activity." That child might have to go to mom to say he's done and then sit & wait until she has time to check things before he has those freedoms.  A child who regularly shows that responsibility DOES have the freedom to go on to freetime activities (whatever you typically allow). 

 

Something like this worked well when my dd wanted to pierce her ears at age 10.  I said no, because I didn't think she would remember to clean them--she didn't remember to brush her hair daily at that age and had to be reminded. I figured she would either remember to brush her hair, thus showing she could be responsible for her ears...or not.  I told her she could ask again at 13.  She came to me about a year later & said she agreed--she wasn't responsible enough yet because she still struggled to remember to brush her hair. 

 

So...freedoms can be helpful with training as well.

 

Anyway, hang in there! It's worth investing time in this!

 

Merry :-)

[Alte Veste Academy]

Bottles of whiteout?

Good heavens, no! Nothing makes a mistake more obvious than white-out! We do not conceal our mistakes! Rather, we take pains to ensure that others believe we never make them in the first place. Zero evidence!

 

;)

 

Kidding, of course. (But I do despise white-out.)

 

On a more serious note (or not...LOL), it seems to me that having all assignments completed in bound notebooks does not so much teach organization and independence as it helps to prevent kids from making organizational mistakes in the first place. That's fine, I guess. But at some point, papers will be free and the student will have to cope with that. Somehow, I am reminded of potty-training, where bound notebooks are the diapers and loose-leaf papers are the undies. So, maybe a storage clipboard would be pull-ups? :lol: There will be oopsies, but most kids are fully potty-trained by the time they go to college.

[Free]

I agree with previous posters who said that a system is only good as long as it actually works.

 

For my ds12 who has serious EF deficiencies, daily reminders would just not work in instilling a long term habit and would only end up in causing me stress. Instead I now try to tweak my systems so that the responsibility for remembering all that needs to be done is shifted to him. Either by setting up consequences, or by assigning points, or by using a checklist.

 

I also second the recommendation of Smart but Scattered. It has really helped me a lot.

[Mommy22alyns]

I have a hanging pocket system where the girls put every loose page they do for school.  Before that, papers were everywhere.  We file the papers in their binders every few weeks.  I don't think it's too harsh, but I also agree that a good framework should be set in place.

[happypamama]

I agree with other posters who suggest asking him what he needs to do, rather than telling him. I do this with my kids a lot. "I finished my math, Mom!" "Are you? What more do you need to do?" This gets them thinking and scripting in their heads what they need to do, in a way that me simply reminding them doesn't do.

[Pen]

I have been trying for over a year to get my older son to be more organized with his work, particularly his completed work. He often doesn't date it, doesn't place it in the binder without reminding, leaves looseleaf sheets of math or Latin around the house. 

 

This morning I found his Thursday science assignment under his bed, unlabelled, undated and obviously not put in his completed works binder. I told him again that he was old enough to know to put his work in his binder when he was done with it (this had also happened Friday when he left his Latin work on the dining room table, and I reminded him he must put it away, labelled, dated etc or  it would not be considered complete) and told him that he gets an F for this work. (really, we don't keep grades, but he knows what an F means and he was upset),

 

DH considered this to be too harsh. "He finished the work, right?" is what he said. But in my book, the work isn't finished if it's under his bed, undated and unmarked. I told him that if he was in "regular" school and his teacher asked him for his assignment on the due date and he realized he had left it under his bed (or realized, at least, that it wasn't in his binder) he would get a failing grade. But DH thought i went overboard.

 

Truly, I think an 11 year old should be able to remember to put his work in the binder when it's completed, without being reminded every single day. I am trying to get him to take more ownership over his work, be more responsible. He does get his work done, but the fact that he is disorganized is a real problem. Oh, and this follows on the heels of him losing his piano piece for this week because he didn't put it in his piano binder, so we have no idea where it is and he can't practice the piece this week.

 

Are you moms of 11 year olds still CONSTANTLY reminding your child to file their work properly, and are they constantly losing work? Am i being too harsh? 

 

 

My recollection from schools that gave grades is that the grade went down some for each late day--but not immediately to failing for one day late.  So, yes, I think that is too harsh, and harsher than a regular school would be.

 

We also found binders not very workable.   Currently a checklist  is helping, at least to some degree, get done whatever is put on the checklist.

We have not yet lost schoolwork this year, but just lost bike helmet, which when not worn is supposed to be on bike handlebars.   Mystery.   Yes, it does seem to still be a work in progress.

[Tracy]

I think it depends entirely on whether you have taught him how to be organized.  For some children, a binder and instructions are not enough.  Some kids need to have a routine where they do this at various times during the day.  Only after it has become very routine can you leave it up to them.  I have one kid that adopts routines almost automatically and another that needs months and even years before it becomes automatic.  

[bobbeym]

I think it was too harsh, but I admit that I've done the same thing out of sheer frustration.

 

My 15yo has the same problems, although so far this past week we've at least managed to keep things in binders or in the check-work-now folders.  But I can tell just glancing at the folders that not everything is in them, and I have no idea if that means the work is still in the binders, is lost and missing, or was never done to start with.