CyndiLJ Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 We are a blue collar family, a self-educated one with reasonably intelligent parents and children. One of our goals for homeschooling was to intentionally get off the college bandwagon. You know what I mean, and for many this is entirely wrong (I realize that), but we didn't want our kids losing their teen years to what we feel is needless fretting over SAT's, extracurricular activities maxed out, ridiculous AP classes, etc. We also are really looking at the huge shift our country is undergoing and realizing that the old way of ensuring "success" may indeed not work so well anymore. We are not against college, if one of our kids has a goal that requires it, and we are absolutely going to guide toward post high school training of some sort, be it trade/technical, military, or other options out there. However, we decided long ago that our system works backwards, that we push for college and then try and figure out careers rather than trying to establish what career is desired then working toward the necessary education for that career. College for the sake of college is great for some folks, but for those who are unwilling to go into debt for personal exploration, it is not a good idea. A couple of days ago, our 6th grade children were asked if they were going to college and where they wanted to go. 6th grade...really? My kids responded that they were not sure they were going to college, that they did not want to go needlessly into debt unless they were certain what they wanted to do...and that too many college graduates were in the unemployment line and so they might look in other directions like self-employment, or trades of some sort. The woman asking them looked at them as if they were nuts, and told them they needed to seriously rethink that, implying college was the only way to go. I heard about this after the fact, and was dismayed. We have warned our kids that as they grow older they are going to be faced with this question, and that others will think it is irresponsible of us, as their parents, to not insist they go to college. While I totally respect those that feel strongly about college for their kids, I think we are all going to see a radical paradigm shift in what higher ed looks like in the coming years. We also want our kids to understand on a very deep level that college and Big Careers simply do not equate to happiness, that happiness comes from a variety of sources, many of which have nothing to do with a college degree. Again, not negating college, but trying to place it in a more appropriate place rather than high up on the mantle. It CAN mean happiness if you are pursuing the career of your dreams, and we'd support that all the way! So I am wondering how others feel about this, about what an appropriate response should be to those who vehemently try to persuade our kids that there is only "one way". We are an out of the box sort of family, entrepreneurial in nature, and because 3 of our children came home as older adopted kids we simply do not need to place the sort of pressure on them that the traditional route causes. We feel there is always community college to fill in gaps or begin to explore college, no need for SAT's there nor all that pressure about "getting in", and we'd much prefer that. So Hive, am I all screwed up? If so, slap me up side the head! Or are there others out there who are seeing things change, questioning the traditional model, or flat out refusing to buy into the norm when there are other ways to achieve the same goal (CLEP tests, etc.). I need to hear from you! Cindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Michelle* Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Or are there others out there who are seeing things change, questioning the traditional model, or flat out refusing to buy into the norm when there are other ways to achieve the same goal (CLEP tests, etc.). I need to hear from you! :iagree: Our oldest is almost five. Thirteen years from now, I truly believe the higher education landscape will be unrecognizable compared to what it looks like today. I completely agree with you on helping your kids figure out what they want to be and then figuring out the best way to get there. As for other people asking questions, well, I think we'll teach our kids to respond with a simple "I'm keeping my options open." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Can't there be something in between? We are realists and don't see any of our kids as being full academic scholarship to the school of their dreams types, but we do value education. Dh and I both have advanced degrees and we both feel it is important for the kids to go if they can. We are perfectly fine with the local 4 year college and/or a combo of community college and the local 4 year college UNLESS they have a burning reason/need to go to a specialized college. Living at home and attuning the local schools is a doable expense for us so that is what we will be encouraging. Anything more than that and they will have to pay the difference. We personally feel convicted that this is the way to go for US and our kids, but it may not be the same for you. So, my answer is that we WILL be encouraging college but we won't play into the whole, "Oh, your children aren't going to Stanford on a scholarship? You really need to rethink that" route. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 My kids will do post secondary for sure whether that be college, trade school or whatever. They will not however go itno debt for it. I do not see the benefit of doing that. My goal for my kids regardless of the route they chose, and ultimately it is up to them, is to be able to pay for it themselves without working themselves tot eh bone. To do that all my kids are going to do apprenticeship starting at age 16 as high school students. They will be training in a trade and getting paid to do it and making better money then their friend that is flipping burgers at the A&W. Jobs in the trades will be there for them every summer they are in post secondary and they can easily make enough in those 4months to cover tuition and books for college. I don't want to steer my kids to or away from college. My goal is to give them enough skills and knowledge that there is no closed doors due to MY choices that will negatively affect THEIR lives. Once they are done high school their choices will be that, their choices. They will be adults so it would be wrong of me not to make sure they are able to follow those decisions. I am not in a financial situation to pay for their college or other post secondary choices so instead it is up to me to be sure they will be in a good situation to pay for it themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Girls' Mom Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 We hold the same position as you. We get funny looks, but we are kind of used to that :lol: Our girls are being provided with a decent high school education. One that will enable them to go to college *if they so choose*. But we are against them going just to go. We have many people in our family who have no degrees but have had a comfortable life. They have found alternate routes to earning a living that usually involve something they are good at or enjoy. We also have a family FULL of stay at home moms that are very content with being there for their kids. We are raising our girls to gain a useful skill that can support themselves or help support their families. We do NOT want them to be career driven. We want them to be driven to have a good LIFE. We have one that wants to be a teacher...so that will entail higher education. She will start at a CC, and go from that point. The oldest wants to be a writer, but doesn't know what she wants to do for her "day job". She doesn't particularly like school, and at this time doesn't have the drive to do well in college. It would be much better for her to wait until she KNOWS what she wants to do before she wasted a dime on college. We will be encouraging her to find a job of some sort before long, and go from there. My third wants to be a chef or own a bakery. She may attend a culinary school, but has absolutely no desire to go to college. So, our end goal? To educate them to the point that they can go down the path God chooses for them. Hopefully we can do that while imparting the knowledge that there is as much worth in the stay at home mom, or blue collar mechanic, as there is in a degreed professional working in an office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 For the most part, I agree with your perspective. The goal is to keep as many doors open for them as possible, so that college - even a four-year university - is a possibility for them if that's what they want to shoot for. That does not always have to mean mountains and mountains of debt. You have an open mind, so my advice would be continue that open mind when it comes to different possible paths, and avoid going so far outside-the-box as to reject the traditional route out-of-hand. As for the odd questions, I'd teach the kids about passing the bean dip :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 You can play the game without it overtaking your life. There's a lot out there between a $57K per year, impossible-to-get-in Ivy and no college at all. Some colleges are super-expensive, some less so. Some colleges can offer lots of financial aid; some not so much. Some are super-hard to get into; some take anyone who can pay (or who is willing to sign up for loans). And things will be different based on your kids' interests and talents. A "keep your options open" approach is a sane way to go about it. As they get older, start to visit colleges, talk to kids you know who are attending colleges, send off for brochures, take a standardized test just for fun. See where their interests lie. Talk to folks who work in that area. If your kids are STEM-oriented, or otherwise may enjoy a profession where a degree is a huge asset, then I'd lean a little more towards "might go" than "might not go". You *and* the kids need to learn more than you pick up from the press, so you can make an informed decision. Almost every college offers free tours - check the web site of a local one and take a Saturday afternoon and visit. There's usually a one-hour info session and a one-hour tour of campus, plus they usually spring for lunch in the cafeteria. Talk about what you liked and didn't like. Talk about the majors they offer. Then visit another. There's no commitment, but you'll learn a lot by visiting several and comparing what they say (and what they don't say). Ask questions! Ask about CLEP, and on-line things, and dual enrollment, and commuter options. Ask about what classes someone with a certain major would take. Ask if they have any all-day events where you could get a closer look at the majors you're interested in. (Most schools have these in spring and fall.) These days usually include sessions on financial aid, on specific departments, on campus life, and so on. Yes, your kids are young, but if you do it a little tiny bit at a time (and include a friend or two to make it fun), you'll learn a lot and won't feel crunched to make decisions before you understand the playing field. If college is not for you and yours, that's fine; there are many other respectable paths. But don't cross it off the list without investigating further, as it can open doors for your kids in some professions that otherwise would be slammed right shut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) I don't want to steer my kids to or away from college. My goal is to give them enough skills and knowledge that there is no closed doors due to MY choices that will negatively affect THEIR lives. Once they are done high school their choices will be that, their choices. They will be adults so it would be wrong of me not to make sure they are able to follow those decisions. :iagree: I'm doing a college prep path for my kids. If they have solid plans that do not include college we'll talk. Honestly, I have every intention of them going. But I'm opposed to deep debt for school. We are poised to help our kids do post secondary. My husband and I both have multiple degrees and I do think the college years were very important for both of us in terms of career and in terms of coming onto our own. But we both graduated with zero debt. I have kids that could academically shoot high in theory. Especially my oldest. But if they want to shoot for an ivy league for undergrad, they will have to take the reigns. Edited July 7, 2012 by kck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I have to say that if I were that questioner, I would have been blown away at the maturity of your kids' answers at such a young age. I feel that if your kids' basic education is solid, they will have many options open when they become adults, and that includes college. When I was growing up, "college-bound" kids didn't really do things much differently from other responsible students. A little more classical literature, longer essays, maybe a couple more years of math and science (I did biology, geometry and 2 years of algebra - no big whoop). If the material is learned well, the bells and whistles that schools add today don't make much difference. (I always thought those "resume enhancers" were for people who had mediocre test scores.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 My goal was always to prep my kids for whatever goals they choose, whether that be college, trade school, or whatever. I don't want to limit their choices. I want them to honestly be free to choose the life they want for themselves. I will NOT have them going into debt for it though. We have started funds for college or trade school and will recommend that they start setting aside money for it when they are getting close to high school years. 4 of the 7 kids in my family growing up received post secondary education, 3 chose various other routes, and we are all happy with where we are, I want that for my kids too. Only one of the kids in my family growing up went into debt for their schooling, and that was out of choice, not necessity. One of my brothers took a year off in the middle to work as he hadn't saved enough money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 My kids will do post secondary for sure whether that be college, trade school or whatever. They will not however go itno debt for it. I do not see the benefit of doing that. I know a couple of kids who just graduated from a college that cost about $45K a year, sticker price. (These kids, being bright, probably got merit scholarships and paid less.) They got jobs, right out of school, that are paying six figures. Now, these kids are passionate about their major, and good at it, and it's one that pays well in general. For these kids, any debt that they may have taken on to pay for their education was *well* worth the investment. I would be careful about debt for majors like dance, or art history, or philosophy, but for many STEM majors a bit of debt to pay for school can set their future family up for a more comfortable life for many years to come, as those with good grades and some intern/co-op experience can expect starting salaries of $50K+. This path is not for everyone. But don't discount the possibility, either. So, our end goal? To educate them to the point that they can go down the path God chooses for them. Hopefully we can do that while imparting the knowledge that there is as much worth in the stay at home mom, or blue collar mechanic, as there is in a degreed professional working in an office. :iagree: The path will be different for every child, which is as it should be. For the most part, I agree with your perspective. The goal is to keep as many doors open for them as possible, so that college - even a four-year university - is a possibility for them if that's what they want to shoot for. That does not always have to mean mountains and mountains of debt. You have an open mind, so my advice would be continue that open mind when it comes to different possible paths, and avoid going so far outside-the-box as to reject the traditional route out-of-hand.As for the odd questions, I'd teach the kids about passing the bean dip :) :iagree:, especially about the bean dip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 For me, I feel like I have a middle of the road approach, but the fact that everyone else says things like, "your life will be over if you don't go to college," means I sometimes feel I need to overstate the downside of college. Bu my kids are young and I also think it will be different a decade from now, though how exactly I'm unsure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 We are a blue collar family, a self-educated one with reasonably intelligent parents and children. One of our goals for homeschooling was to intentionally get off the college bandwagon. You know what I mean, and for many this is entirely wrong (I realize that), but we didn't want our kids losing their teen years to what we feel is needless fretting over SAT's, extracurricular activities maxed out, ridiculous AP classes, etc. We also are really looking at the huge shift our country is undergoing and realizing that the old way of ensuring "success" may indeed not work so well anymore. My husband and I have talked about this a lot lately. Even in 4 years, when our first will be college age, I think things will change a lot. We both have undergrad degrees, and he just got his Master's last year for a career change (engineer to ministry). I have an English degree but have been a sahm since my kids were born. We never had student debt and we expect our kids not to have any either. Our definition of success is changing over time. It started with my husband's career change. So many people questioned us when we said he was leaving his nice engineering job to go to seminary, we were moving to a smaller house on the other side of the country, didn't know the future, etc. Our kids are getting some of those questions now, mostly from family members whose kids followed very traditional route and now are enjoying various degrees of success in their lives. My son, in particular, gets it a lot - he is in Boy Scouts, and he is constantly asked what his Eagle project is going to be, which military academy he's going to try for (Congressional appointment, of course), blah blah blah. They just say they don't know what they're doing yet. They are polite but don't encourage the interaction. I do want my kids childhoods/teen years to be productive yet enjoyable. I see so much pressure on kids to prepare for adulthood. But what about their lives now? It's true that adulthood lasts a lot longer, and we don't want to promote extended adolescence, but we do want our kids to have good memories of their lives now. Sorry I'm a bit rambly. Your post hit really close to home for me.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I'm in two minds about it all. On one hand, I totally agree about debt and the need to be careful; debt can ruin a future! I do steer mine toward college, tho. While I appreciate your post and the sentiments behind it, I think deciding what you want to be when you grow up, when you are NOT grown up, is very, very limiting and difficult. I would rather my kids get a broader education, and THEN specialize. I don't think a BS or BA is the place to totally specialize, frankly. I would rather they go for a liberal arts degree that includes some specialization, and then go for a Master's that really hones in on the career. I know, that's out of the box in the opposite direction as you! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyof4ks Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 We are preparing our kids to enter the working world and use their strengths. For dd that will likely be college for some sort of degree, because she is very academically inclined. She is 12, and she does not yet k ow what she wants to do for a career, but it will likely be something that needs a college degree. My middle son is not academically inclined, but he will make a great engineer or something of that nature. A technical school with a focus on that might be best for him. My youngest is not yet to a point where I can see his real strengths, because he shadows his brother so much. He seems like some sort of humanitarian work is in his future though, so I do not know how that will translate into a living yet. I get where you are coming from, but I do not want to put off playing the game only to discover that my kids are too far behind the 8 ball to play effectively. It will not take over their lives, and thanks to homeschooling they have time to play the game and still figure out their plan in life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) We are currently of the same mindset. Neither dh or myself attended college, and we are very entrepreneurial by nature, as well. While we want to encourage and prepare the kids for whichever path they choose, college will not be THE focus. As they get older, we will be emphasizing the things that your kids responded with. So, :grouphug: I am not really looking forward to the outside pressure. Edited July 7, 2012 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I know a couple of kids who just graduated from a college that cost about $45K a year, sticker price. See to me that price is nuts. My kids can go to the University of Alberta, live with family for free, and lets say they go into engineering they would have to pay around $4K per term plus books, So about $10 per year. Now if they have worked at a trade for 2 years in high school saving up they will have there first year covered. After that will have 4 months each summer to work in the same trade making good money having so much experience behind them and be able to pay each year out in cash with no debt following them. Lets say they go into law They would be closer to $12 per year Plus books. 1st year medicine $15K per year Plus books. So even if they went to become a doctor they would end up paying less than what you have experienced with those students that you knew. For us living here going into massive debt for college is not worth it, I am still dealing with student loans and my last program ended 10 years ago. I do not want that for my kids. I think you can promote college, or any other post secondary route without promoting debt kwim. Now obviously college in the states appears to be very different as far as cost, and there seems to be a push for kids to live on campus whereas that is the exception among those I know, everyone goes to college/university fairly close to home for the most part. With the big city having a major university, a few smaller universities, and then multiple colleges, bible school, and trade schools etc there is no reason to spend a ton to live on campus if you can avoid it. You have ever choice of post secondary available right there. And if all of that doesn't suit them, the town 10 minutes from me houses the fire training school, and an agricultural college, the military base is only 45 minutes away. Take your pick :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lea1 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I don't want to steer my kids to or away from college. My goal is to give them enough skills and knowledge that there is no closed doors due to MY choices that will negatively affect THEIR lives. Once they are done high school their choices will be that, their choices. They will be adults so it would be wrong of me not to make sure they are able to follow those decisions. :iagree: Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny_Weatherwax Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 This may not be helpful but.... I was a first gen college student. My father had a GED (earned in the military which he entered at 16) and my mom had a high school diploma. After watching them struggle for most of their adult lives I decided college was not an option but a necessity. Everything I did in high school was geared toward getting into college. Not just any college but a top tier school. I worked for four years to get great SAT scores (no one in CO took the ACT back then) and to pad my academic transcript with extracurriculars and every honors class I could take. When I was accepted into college (and yes, I was accepted into those top tier schools with merit scholarships) everything I did was about graduating from college; earning that diploma. I threw myself into my studies and spent my four years in college much the same as I did in high school. I participated in sports, clubs and took as many classes as I could. I received grants to remain on campus doing summer research projects. I thought I was doing everything I could to be successful. The problem was...as a first gen student I had no idea how to prepare for a career. Yes, I was a great college student (still am) but I did not do myself any favors by not being prepared for life after college. I remember the day after commencement when everything hit me -without the goal of the degree I was lost. Some how I missed something important along the way - career counseling. I am happy to see many colleges including career advancement and internship information during freshman orientation. It appears to me that colleges are placing a greater emphasis on gaining education for a career and not education for the sake of earning a diploma. -- With that being said what DH and I are doing with our kids is talking about possible career choices and finding the path that will get them to where they want to be as independent, content, contributing adults. We are not making college or a college degree the 'end game' but a step in the process toward a fulfilling career and adult life. For DD that means beginning a 4 year degree at a liberal arts school. With her little tag-along it will be difficult for her but she wants to give it a try. She has two career interests and both of those will require at least a BA. For DS ..well...he keeps changing his mind about a career. One day he wants to be in Military Intelligence /Special Ops the next a marine biologist. Either way he needs a college degree and/or a specific skill set. We are helping him find activities and interests that will help him gain those skills. Our hope is that he will develop a passion for something and foster that passion into a career. Does any of that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I know a couple of kids who just graduated from a college that cost about $45K a year, sticker price. (These kids, being bright, probably got merit scholarships and paid less.) They got jobs, right out of school, that are paying six figures. Now, these kids are passionate about their major, and good at it, and it's one that pays well in general. For these kids, any debt that they may have taken on to pay for their education was *well* worth the investment. See to me that price is nuts. My kids can go to the University of Alberta, live with family for free, and lets say they go into engineering they would have to pay around $4K per term plus books, So about $10 per year. Oh, I totally agree that if you can find the major you want at a local, state school, and especially if you can live at home, you can cut college costs/debt significantly. I'm also a fan of co-op programs, that build your resume while helping pay for college. And I'm all for keeping debt as low as possible. My point was just that a "absolutely no debt at all, for any reason, ever" policy might not always be the most fiscally wise approach in the long run, big picture. I'd hate to see a passionate, talented kid miss out on an opportunity to get the credentials needed to enter a career field that would provide well for their family for some time to come. (Those kids I mentioned are now in the top 15% of US household earnings, right out of school. Hopefully, they're making wise choices with it.) Even when the sticker price looks crazy, under some circumstances it may be worth it, even if it involves some debt. Is it always worth it? Clearly not. But sometimes, it can be. Understanding what career prospects a particular school/major might be likely to lead to, and typical starting salaries in that field, should be a basic part of college planning. Also, being realistic about how your particular student's potential grades, work experience, and other resume material might measure up in the post-college job market in their field is wise. And of course, how likely they are to actually finish with a degree. College isn't for everyone. College isn't the right path to every career. Money doesn't equal success. Everyone has gifts to develop and share. In some cases, college might actually be the best path, and it might require some up-front investment. Just don't rule it out without learning more about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I didn't go to college, but I am raising my dds to pursue college. They're both quite capable. One of my reasons is that the entry level jobs I was able to obtain that allowed me to advance to a point that I didn't need to go to college now require at least an A.A., many require a Bachelor's. We've also talked about going to state universities due to cost, but the talk is still about the expectation of attending college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I didn't go to college, but I am raising my dds to pursue college. They're both quite capable. One of my reasons is that the entry level jobs I was able to obtain that allowed me to advance to a point that I didn't need to go to college now require at least an A.A., many require a Bachelor's. We've also talked about going to state universities due to cost, but the talk is still about the expectation of attending college. This is our position as well. At this point ds is not aiming for chasing the college train, but it's going to be a part of the package of his education. We've seen too many doors closed to us in this economy simply because we don't hold degrees. My dh had a successful business for many years. Yet when he needed to change careers he had zero options because of no degree. AT this point ds's career interests will require at least a BA/BS. College doesn't automatically create a work ethic, but many companies would never see my ds's ability if doesn't even qualify for an interview. So I think it could be a valid question, even for a 6th grader. However, I would never presume to jump on the parents or child because of their answer. I think there are a lot of great educational options on the horizon. At least for us, I don't think the direction of education is going to change that much in the next four years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I think 'keeping your options open' means that you prepare for college. If a child doesn't wish to go, fine. But, to not take the necessary steps to ensure admission if college is desired isn't keeping options open. I see college as keeping options open. Very often people cannot advance or change jobs because they don't have more than a semester or two at a community college. Now that they are in their 40s, they are very vulnerable and have few choices. They want to advance in their jobs but are passed over for younger people with more education. One friend's husband was told people don't like working under someone with less education than they have. His wife, who does have a college degree, was able to find a better paying job than him in a matter of weeks. She had been out of the job market for over 10 years. I should also say that I live in the NE, and it is highly unlikely you are going to have a white collar job without a degree of some kind. I worked for a not-for profit human service agency and the only person in the office without a 4 year degree was the administrative assistant, and that wasn't a job that would support a family. My husband was able to go back to school 10 years ago and get a Master's. It opened up a whole different life for us. We own a home. He is earning more than twice what the two of us earned combined before he had that degree. I'd say that was an excellent investment. If he didn't have that degree I would not be homeschooling. It would have been really difficult if he hadn't already had that 4 year degree to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soonermomma Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I personally had never heard that prospective, however, I have to say that it makes sense to me. You gave me some food for thought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I say to each his own, and others shouldnt be second guessing you or yr kids. It is none of tgeir business! For us though, college is an expectation. A marketable degree is an expectation. Being in a top % graduating GPA is an expectation. As adults my children will be of course free to make their own choices, but as the adult and parent now, it is my duty to guide them toward success within the parameters of their talents. I have noticed that the majority of struggling graduates were not top of the class in a competitive field. I have a touch of Tiger Mom in me, and believe excelling /mastery can = happiness. I am not as pushy as I sound here. I am teaching the kids that this is my belief, but no one will be disowned for following a different path. We will have their college accts fully funded, a TOP priority. Many would disagree and I would shut them down just like you should shut down people who drill yr kids abt college. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 So I am wondering how others feel about this, about what an appropriate response should be to those who vehemently try to persuade our kids that there is only "one way". We are an out of the box sort of family, entrepreneurial in nature, and because 3 of our children came home as older adopted kids we simply do not need to place the sort of pressure on them that the traditional route causes. We feel there is always community college to fill in gaps or begin to explore college, no need for SAT's there nor all that pressure about "getting in", and we'd much prefer that. I think your reasoning makes perfect sense, and I think that in the next couple of decades there will be a whole lot of under-employed adults with college degrees and huge debt, and an alarming lack of competent, well-trained tradespeople. When most young people consider trades "beneath" them, yet think little of borrowing huge sums of money for college on the assumption that somehow they're going to make $50K/yr w/a Philosophy degree, where will that leave us? With a lot of unhappy, debt-ridden adults and a lot of leaky roofs, broken plumbing, and cars that won't run. I have a friend who's a hairdresser: at 26 she owns her own salon, loves what she does, just bought her first house, and makes more money than either her mother or father, both of whom have Master's degrees, or her sister (BA, working as a temp). Pursuing a trade or technical career instead of a 4yr degree is not "2nd best" or a sign of failure, and for many kids it really is the smartest choice. My kids will probably go to college, because the careers they're interested in require it, but if either of them chose something else, I would be absolutely fine with it. My brother was a mechanic; he owned his own business, traveled all over the world (even worked in Antarctica), and had a fabulous life. My other brother is a commercial fisherman who wouldn't trade his job for anything. I have a niece who recently graduated from college and works as a salesgirl at Claire's. I know a woman who quit teaching and became a welder, and now makes considerably more money as a welder. There are all kinds of interesting and enjoyable jobs out there that don't require a 4 yr degree. As for what the kids should tell people who question them... I'd just have them smile and say something noncommittal like "Oh, I have plenty of time to think about that, I don't need to decide those kinds of things in [insert grade]." Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyndiLJ Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 I think your reasoning makes perfect sense, and I think that in the next couple of decades there will be a whole lot of under-employed adults with college degrees and huge debt, and an alarming lack of competent, well-trained tradespeople. When most young people consider trades "beneath" them, yet think little of borrowing huge sums of money for college on the assumption that somehow they're going to make $50K/yr w/a Philosophy degree, where will that leave us? With a lot of unhappy, debt-ridden adults and a lot of leaky roofs, broken plumbing, and cars that won't run. I have a friend who's a hairdresser: at 26 she owns her own salon, loves what she does, just bought her first house, and makes more money than either her mother or father, both of whom have Master's degrees, or her sister (BA, working as a temp). Pursuing a trade or technical career instead of a 4yr degree is not "2nd best" or a sign of failure, and for many kids it really is the smartest choice. My kids will probably go to college, because the careers they're interested in require it, but if either of them chose something else, I would be absolutely fine with it. My brother was a mechanic; he owned his own business, traveled all over the world (even worked in Antarctica), and had a fabulous life. My other brother is a commercial fisherman who wouldn't trade his job for anything. I have a niece who recently graduated from college and works as a salesgirl at Claire's. I know a woman who quit teaching and became a welder, and now makes considerably more money as a welder. There are all kinds of interesting and enjoyable jobs out there that don't require a 4 yr degree. As for what the kids should tell people who question them... I'd just have them smile and say something noncommittal like "Oh, I have plenty of time to think about that, I don't need to decide those kinds of things in [insert grade]." Jackie I so appreciate this response, Jackie, for you put into words much of what I have been witnessing lately. We attend a church with a very well educated congregation, in fact there are only 4 or 5 of us who do not have a college education, but all that don't are business owners (web designer, restaurant owner, etc.) But when we talked about all of this recently, we realized that the vast majority are not working at what they spent all that money going to school for, let alone a job that required a degree at all! Some are in sales, one is a bar tender, one works in an MD office, etc. Daily, all around us, we see folks with degrees that are useless or unused, and that makes us hesitate to call college a "must". Sadly, it is as if our entire culture has become "college crazy", and it makes me wonder when all of this changed. When I was in school, college was a goal for many students but it was not at all emphasized as something you must do for a solid future and success. There was a thriving trades segment as well. It was recognized that really, about the top 3rd of kids were truly college material, the middle third could go both ways, and the bottom third would likely fail at college because they didn't have those gifts. The difference from then to now is that middle and bottom third didn't feel like losers if they didn't elect to go the college route, and instead were often shown other careers to explore. I guess what I am saying is exactly what you are saying above, that there are a ton of options out there and it feels specifically within the homeschooling arena that we are going the route of public ed and emphasizing college to the detriment of the exploration of a zillion other possibilities. I had hoped to find a more fully developed apprentice/trades/technical field with homeschooling for guidance to those options. I can find tons of info about college prep, CLEPS, etc. but very little direction for non-college routes. That saddens me, for I think it is limiting...and I think it equates degrees and dollars to happiness, which is definitely not always what leads to it. Cindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyndiLJ Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 As the original poster, I think some may have misinterpreted what I was saying or read more into it than was there. We actually are teaching toward basic college prep....foreign language will be out of the way, we will meet all the basic subject requirements/credits for our state university, etc. We are not at all against college, and actually have a couple who will likely go that route. But we are intentionally not going to make this life or death for our kids, and turn their love of learning into a competition. I also am of the belief that many of us today (and studies show this to be true) that our first career will not be our last, and we will find ourselves changing careers over the course of our lifetime. Things have changed drastically since we were in high school 25 years ago, and not for the better. There was a much more realistic perspective about college and careers, there were average classes in high school and Honors classes, but AP classes and all the pressure of the SAT's were not at all what they are today. I think we harm our children in numerous ways by pushing them to essentially be college students before they actually are college students. I know that may be a very unpopular opinion, particularly on these boards:ack2: We also have a very different situation which colors everything for us, and I recognize this. When you adopt children who have been institutionalized half their childhood, you are in no rush to push them to begin adult life before they have even had a taste of the life they missed out on. But there is more than that. When I think back on generations even before mine, it was filled with successful men and women (OK,. a few women if we go back that far!), and they didn't have this sort of overkill hanging over their heads. What accounts for their success if they didn't have to think about scoring super high on SAT's or getting into the "right" college filled with activities that were meaningiess to them but made them "look good"? I guess what I am saying is, not that we won't be "in the game", but that I think there is more than one way to "play", and we are likely going to take the road less traveled and see what we find there. We won't be limiting options, but perhaps simply emphasizing more of them than is currently being pushed by our culture. And I know I just may not know a single thing! Hahaha! Cindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I so appreciate this response, Jackie, for you put into words much of what I have been witnessing lately. We attend a church with a very well educated congregation, in fact there are only 4 or 5 of us who do not have a college education, but all that don't are business owners (web designer, restaurant owner, etc.) But when we talked about all of this recently, we realized that the vast majority are not working at what they spent all that money going to school for, let alone a job that required a degree at all! Some are in sales, one is a bar tender, one works in an MD office, etc. Daily, all around us, we see folks with degrees that are useless or unused, and that makes us hesitate to call college a "must". Sadly, it is as if our entire culture has become "college crazy", and it makes me wonder when all of this changed. When I was in school, college was a goal for many students but it was not at all emphasized as something you must do for a solid future and success. There was a thriving trades segment as well. It was recognized that really, about the top 3rd of kids were truly college material, the middle third could go both ways, and the bottom third would likely fail at college because they didn't have those gifts. The difference from then to now is that middle and bottom third didn't feel like losers if they didn't elect to go the college route, and instead were often shown other careers to explore. I guess what I am saying is exactly what you are saying above, that there are a ton of options out there and it feels specifically within the homeschooling arena that we are going the route of public ed and emphasizing college to the detriment of the exploration of a zillion other possibilities. I had hoped to find a more fully developed apprentice/trades/technical field with homeschooling for guidance to those options. I can find tons of info about college prep, CLEPS, etc. but very little direction for non-college routes. That saddens me, for I think it is limiting...and I think it equates degrees and dollars to happiness, which is definitely not always what leads to it. Cindy But, see, it sounds to me like you're approaching college as a vocational and/or economic decision. And that always bothers me. Education isn't -- or shouldn't be, anyway -- about a return on investment. It's about broadening your horizons and bettering your understanding of the world and so many other things that have nothing to do with whether you're still working in the same job a decade or two after graduation. Having said that, I'll admit that I'm usually one of the few people in the room who doesn't insist on my kids going to college. My husband and I agree that we want both of ours to have some kind of post-secondary education or training, but we don't demand a four-year degree. I actually think the trend toward pushing every student into college is a lot of what's wrong with university-level education in this country. It's kind of like No Child Left Behind: if we insist that everyone go to college, we have to make college easy enough for everyone to go. I think university degrees mean less than they did a few decades ago, because we keep making it easier to get them. And I also think that many, many good jobs and worthwhile careers don't require college. Employers can set the requirement, but I think it's silly. So, while I agree with you that not everyone needs college, I don't agree that college is "useless" just because you don't see it as a permanent employment solution. And I also agree that I'm disturbed by the mania I see in some families for accumulating credits and awards and all of the little pieces of paper they perceive as necessary in order to "get into a good school," but I think that assuming college is off the table or refusing to put any thought or effort into making sure it is at least an option for our kids is doing them a serious disservice. So, my son just pretty much lives his life. He's an active, interested and interesting kid. He keeps up with a fairly rigorous academic load, which still mostly fits neatly into less time than his schooled friends spend on campus. He volunteers with a few organizations mostly because he enjoys being there and being useful. He takes the ACT or SAT once a year for practice but doesn't stress about prepping or getting any particular score. He participates in extracurriculars he loves. We're covering all the bases for future college applications without really thinking about it much on most days. He still has lots of time to watch too much TV and send countless texts to his friends. He sleeps late on weekends and has plenty of time to build things in the backyard and to read lots of books for fun. Some days, he even has time to be bored. I expect he will go to college, probably to a moderately selective school after doing a couple of years at the community college. He'll likely stay in state after that and claim the partial scholarship available on the basis of the ACT scores he's already earned. He may even live at home for all four years. Since I will by then be available to get a part-time job, we should be able to handle paying the remainder of his tuition and fees and other expenses without loans. Enjoying life as a teen doesn't have to mean crossing college off the list. Going to college doesn't have to mean piling up crushing debt. None of this has to be an either-or proposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 This is our position as well. At this point ds is not aiming for chasing the college train, but it's going to be a part of the package of his education. We've seen too many doors closed to us in this economy simply because we don't hold degrees. My dh had a successful business for many years. Yet when he needed to change careers he had zero options because of no degree. AT this point ds's career interests will require at least a BA/BS. College doesn't automatically create a work ethic, but many companies would never see my ds's ability if doesn't even qualify for an interview. So I think it could be a valid question, even for a 6th grader. However, I would never presume to jump on the parents or child because of their answer. I think there are a lot of great educational options on the horizon. At least for us, I don't think the direction of education is going to change that much in the next four years. :iagree: A friend of our family is now in his fifties and has to get a college degree in order to continue in his job. He sells medical equipment. Big, expensive medical equipment used in surgery. He has done this job...and excelled in it...for thirty years. If he does not get a BA or BS degree...he will lose it. The company doesn't even care what the degree is. Seriously, he could major in Art History if he wanted to. But a degree is now required for his position. And that is what I think the job market is going to look like in the future. Employers won't care what your child learned through life or on the job experience...if you don't have a Bachelor's degree, don't bother applying for the position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I am really impressed by your kid's answer. I think you are spot-on. There's definitely a college bubble. It's interesting that the most successful people tend to be be business people unless they got professional or STEM degrees. I also think college will change a lot and become more online-friendly in the next 6 years, maybe even less expensive as online instruction can cost much less in overhead costs. However, I think there might have been a social dynamic going on there that you missed: I suspect the person who asked them that was trying to suss out your family's social and intellectual standing, not actually find out anything personal about your kids. In her mind, some people homeschool for academic reasons, they have kids that go to MIT instead of 9th grade, for example, and the public school system just can't serve them. She was trying to determine how to assess your family (and probably judge you against her own). If you want your kids to be nice about it, I would probably tell them not to argue with adults, asking about college is the equivalent to asking what grade you're in, and just to say you haven't decided yet. If you want them to play the social ranking game, you could have them give a slight sneer and say they're planning on starting a business like Bill Gates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Education isn't -- or shouldn't be, anyway -- about a return on investment. It's about broadening your horizons and bettering your understanding of the world and so many other things that have nothing to do with whether you're still working in the same job a decade or two after graduation. Of course — but a 4 yr college is not the only way to broaden your horizons and understanding of the world. (And, having read Cindy's blog, I think her five very remarkable children already have broader horizons and a better understanding of how the world works than most college kids I've met.) I think that assuming college is off the table or refusing to put any thought or effort into making sure it is at least an option for our kids is doing them a serious disservice. Enjoying life as a teen doesn't have to mean crossing college off the list. But no one has suggested this. :confused: I'm puzzled by all the replies that seem to suggest Cindy is eliminating college as a possibility. She's repeatedly stated that she is not against college and will wholeheartedly support her kids if they want to go. E.g.: We actually are teaching toward basic college prep....foreign language will be out of the way, we will meet all the basic subject requirements/credits for our state university, etc. We are not at all against college, and actually have a couple who will likely go that route...<snip> I guess what I am saying is, not that we won't be "in the game", but that I think there is more than one way to "play", and we are likely going to take the road less traveled and see what we find there. We won't be limiting options, but perhaps simply emphasizing more of them than is currently being pushed by our culture. She's not forbidding her kids from going to college, she's just trying to avoid the hamster wheel of multiple APs, cramming for SAT's, adding lots of extra-curriculars just to "look good," and the whole mindset that a 4yr degree is the only way to be successful in life. She's said that she will totally support the kids who want to go to college, but also considers trade/technical training, the military, and CC as valid options (she specifically mentioned those in the OP). Basically she is saying that she thinks college should be a well-considered choice, rather than an automatic default simply because kids don't know what the other options are. I wholeheartedly agree with that. I guess I don't understand what people are arguing against here. :confused: Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in OH Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I actually think the entrepreneurial scenario that you describe is extremely healthy and one that will ultimately pull our country out of recession. I do believe that it is helpful for a tradesperson to have some business knowledge beyond high school (although that may be part of a standard trades education these days, I don't know.) If a person isn't going to pursue a trade or create a business, but will simply be someone's employee, I strongly believe that post high school education/training of some sort is critical. I work in job development, and employers are extremely unwilling in this economy to train employees. They expect, and can demand, some sort of training. Only when available jobs outnumber available job seekers, will this approach change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 :iagree: A friend of our family is now in his fifties and has to get a college degree in order to continue in his job. He sells medical equipment. Big, expensive medical equipment used in surgery. He has done this job...and excelled in it...for thirty years. If he does not get a BA or BS degree...he will lose it. The company doesn't even care what the degree is. Seriously, he could major in Art History if he wanted to. But a degree is now required for his position. And that is what I think the job market is going to look like in the future. Employers won't care what your child learned through life or on the job experience...if you don't have a Bachelor's degree, don't bother applying for the position. My husband has run into similar issues. Seriously, he's the smartest guy I know, amazingly good at his job. In fact, the position he's in at the moment was basically created for him, the second time this has happened in his career. Nonetheless, he almost didn't get it, because he doesn't have a degree. And, because he doesn't have a degree, they couldn't justify paying as much once they did create the job description. Is this right? Is is sensible? Nope. But it is what it is. His parents didn't have college degrees and did "just fine." So, they didn't push their kids to go to college. They had no way of knowing the job market was going to go this direction. But it's my husband who's paying the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I guess what I am saying is, not that we won't be "in the game", but that I think there is more than one way to "play", and we are likely going to take the road less traveled and see what we find there. We won't be limiting options, but perhaps simply emphasizing more of them than is currently being pushed by our culture. Our approach was "be yourself, but be your best self". Our feeling was that if we followed this philosophy, then the kiddos would land at colleges (or other paths) that were a good fit for them, and this is how it has played out so far. We didn't do extracurriculars or classes just for college aps, we did those things that made sense for the child's interests and paths. There is some hype to the game, and there is some truth. If you're not aiming at the Ivys, you can live a sane life and still do college if that's the route you prefer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
********* Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 The number one priority to us is that they pursue whatever the Lord has for them. Missionary to a third world country, garbage man, or brain surgeon; I don't care. Whatever they feel the Lord wants them to do, they should do. We'd like them to pursue what the Lord has for them while acquiring as little debt as possible. Ideally, they'd acquire NO debt; but dh and I realize that's not always possible. For example, dsd decided she wants to study journalism. She also decided she didn't want to live at home and take as many classes as possible at community college before transfering to university. Dh and I don't agree with that decision, but she's grown and can do what she wants; on her own dime. And she is. Had she decided to take the more sensible route, we would have helped her financially. But she was not interested. I'm praying my boys are more sensible financially. But we can only do what we can do, right? Once they're 18, it's on them to be wise with their money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I agree with all you've said, Cindy. I wanted to pull out two of your statements. Sadly, it is as if our entire culture has become "college crazy", and it makes me wonder when all of this changed. When I was in school, college was a goal for many students but it was not at all emphasized as something you must do for a solid future and success. There was a thriving trades segment as well. It was recognized that really, about the top 3rd of kids were truly college material, the middle third could go both ways, and the bottom third would likely fail at college because they didn't have those gifts. The difference from then to now is that middle and bottom third didn't feel like losers if they didn't elect to go the college route, and instead were often shown other careers to explore. Cindy :iagree: Remember vocational school?! I graduated 10th in my public high school class. Even by those standards, 22 years ago, I didn't follow the "standard college route." I took one year of science and three years of math (Alg. 1 &2 and Geo), all the honors English I could, and all the business courses offered. I was still accepted into the liberal arts college of my choice without the huge load of maths and sciences. I would never have pursued a degree in math or science and felt they were not needed. I feel the push for all of these college prep courses for every child is detrimental. FWIW, I didn't end up attending college but married instead. A decision I don't regret. Things have changed drastically since we were in high school 25 years ago, and not for the better. There was a much more realistic perspective about college and careers, there were average classes in high school and Honors classes, but AP classes and all the pressure of the SAT's were not at all what they are today. I think we harm our children in numerous ways by pushing them to essentially be college students before they actually are college students. I know that may be a very unpopular opinion, particularly on these boards:ack2: Cindy :iagree: Two of my dd's friends began community college at 14 along with their homeschooling. Without going into details, I think it did them no favors. Academically they were fine, but it is not all about academics. Their mom is more than thrilled and extremely proud. Though they will all say that they missed out on nothing by doing this, as the mom of their friend who was trying to find time to just hang out and be a teen with them, I can say that they did. My dd17 just graduated. She desires not to go to college. She desires to pursue photography, something I know she can do without a degree. Dd 11 is too young to be thinking about this yet. I will see where her passions are as she goes through high school and steer her the right direction. If that is college, great. If not, great. My dad and his brothers owned a successful building company for over 25 years. Not one had a degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 The number one priority to us is that they pursue whatever the Lord has for them. Missionary to a third world country, garbage man, or brain surgeon; I don't care. Whatever they feel the Lord wants them to do, they should do. :iagree: Oops forgot to include this with my other post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyndiLJ Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 A friend passes on her old magazines, and I just literally stumbled upon this article today in the Christian Science Monitor for June, which speaks clearly to some of my concerns: http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/2012/0617/Bachelor-s-degree-Has-it-lost-its-edge-and-its-value There can be no doubt that our ideas of education are evolving, the value of education is evolving, and the path to success is no longer clear cut. Would things be different if our economy were in different shape? I am sure it would, but we are not the America of the 90's or 2000's any longer, and I think we need to recognize just how much education is changing...and we can not stop that recognition at the high school door. Why do we think numbers have drastically increased for homeschooling? Because people are not longer willing to "settle" for a low quality education, because families no longer wish to be held hostage to a public entity which has too much control over their family life, and because we think we can do it better. Why then do we stop thinking that way when it comes to college? Frankly, there is something totally wrong with me, as a parent, if I can't guide my children to better suited choices for their future...which may or may not include traditional college. A high school guidance counselor has no clue about my kids, no idea what might fit them best, and no vested interest in their success. That makes me better for the job, period. For our family, we feel it is extremely important to keep our eye on this whole situation. It might very well be that trades lead to a solid paycheck faster and more reliably than college will. Or it may be that my kid's dream of being a pilot will require more college...or that we can find a workaround for it through other avenues that are less expensive. The times ARE changing, and i fear that keeping old models as the standard might just leave some of us startled a few years from now. If public school at lower levels doesn't work, why do we suddenly think upper level education in America isn't also broken? The statistics in this article are what make me hesitate to tell my kids, as some do, "College is a must, or you will not get a decent job.". When they point out exactly what we are seeing (and what I think we might see grow to even higher numbers) that 16% of bartenders, 12 % of taxi drivers, and 11% of parking attendants all have a bachelor's degree...and presumably the debt that came with it, it begins to make me question the standard wisdom of "Gotta get the college degree.)...and when you think about it, that is only for those 3 professions...what about all the other professions that would surprise you to find well educated folks doing work that didn't at all require a degree. For us, part of it might also be financial prudence. Simply weighing whether we are at a place in our history where something is changing that we are just at the cusp of and beginning to collectively discern or not. I am sorry, but if my child is going to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a degree, only to end up a taxi driver, I'd rather buy him the taxi, pat him on the back and say "good luck, you can make it!" than have them waste time and oodles more money for an education that will go unused. THEN I would feel we made a good investment in their future! It is a very tough thing to wrap our minds around, and the great discussions here signal just how divided we as a country might eventually be about this whole concept of "higher education"! Thank you SO much for giving me a lot to think about here with your responses! You are the brightest bunch of people :grouphug: Cindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyndiLJ Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 I actually think the entrepreneurial scenario that you describe is extremely healthy and one that will ultimately pull our country out of recession. I do believe that it is helpful for a tradesperson to have some business knowledge beyond high school (although that may be part of a standard trades education these days, I don't know.) If a person isn't going to pursue a trade or create a business, but will simply be someone's employee, I strongly believe that post high school education/training of some sort is critical. I work in job development, and employers are extremely unwilling in this economy to train employees. They expect, and can demand, some sort of training. Only when available jobs outnumber available job seekers, will this approach change. I 100% agree with you on this one! We have made a nice living for ourselves as mere high school graduates, but we each have some post-high school training with my hubby taking a handful of business courses in community college, both of us at one time holding additional licenses in pest management when working for a large exterminator firm (this bumped both of us up the ladder), and some ministry training. The truth is, if we were not self-employed...and willing to accept the risks that go with that choice, we would not be anywhere near where we are today without additional education. We have carved out a life for us that works quite well, but it took years of sweat equity and risk. The life of the self-employed is not easy, but it can be far more rewarding for those for whom it is well suited. One thing that bothers me is the lack of business training available in high school or through less expensive means. I am surprised there isn't more and better homeschooling curriculum out there geared toward the homeschool population! Cindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyndiLJ Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 Of course — but a 4 yr college is not the only way to broaden your horizons and understanding of the world. (And, having read Cindy's blog, I think her five very remarkable children already have broader horizons and a better understanding of how the world works than most college kids I've met.) But no one has suggested this. :confused: I'm puzzled by all the replies that seem to suggest Cindy is eliminating college as a possibility. She's repeatedly stated that she is not against college and will wholeheartedly support her kids if they want to go. E.g.: She's not forbidding her kids from going to college, she's just trying to avoid the hamster wheel of multiple APs, cramming for SAT's, adding lots of extra-curriculars just to "look good," and the whole mindset that a 4yr degree is the only way to be successful in life. She's said that she will totally support the kids who want to go to college, but also considers trade/technical training, the military, and CC as valid options (she specifically mentioned those in the OP). Basically she is saying that she thinks college should be a well-considered choice, rather than an automatic default simply because kids don't know what the other options are. I wholeheartedly agree with that. I guess I don't understand what people are arguing against here. :confused: Jackie Thanks so much for understanding what I am trying to say here, Jackie! i have been a little confused at some of the responses as well, as I thought I couldn't have made it any clearer that i am not anti-college nor am I limited our kids options...OK, maybe I am limiting them from consideration at Harvard...hahaha! I am betting that won't be much of an issue for ours though :-) Cindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyndiLJ Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 But, see, it sounds to me like you're approaching college as a vocational and/or economic decision. And that always bothers me. Education isn't -- or shouldn't be, anyway -- about a return on investment. It's about broadening your horizons and bettering your understanding of the world and so many other things that have nothing to do with whether you're still working in the same job a decade or two after graduation. Having said that, I'll admit that I'm usually one of the few people in the room who doesn't insist on my kids going to college. My husband and I agree that we want both of ours to have some kind of post-secondary education or training, but we don't demand a four-year degree. I actually think the trend toward pushing every student into college is a lot of what's wrong with university-level education in this country. It's kind of like No Child Left Behind: if we insist that everyone go to college, we have to make college easy enough for everyone to go. I think university degrees mean less than they did a few decades ago, because we keep making it easier to get them. And I also think that many, many good jobs and worthwhile careers don't require college. Employers can set the requirement, but I think it's silly. So, while I agree with you that not everyone needs college, I don't agree that college is "useless" just because you don't see it as a permanent employment solution. And I also agree that I'm disturbed by the mania I see in some families for accumulating credits and awards and all of the little pieces of paper they perceive as necessary in order to "get into a good school," but I think that assuming college is off the table or refusing to put any thought or effort into making sure it is at least an option for our kids is doing them a serious disservice. So, my son just pretty much lives his life. He's an active, interested and interesting kid. He keeps up with a fairly rigorous academic load, which still mostly fits neatly into less time than his schooled friends spend on campus. He volunteers with a few organizations mostly because he enjoys being there and being useful. He takes the ACT or SAT once a year for practice but doesn't stress about prepping or getting any particular score. He participates in extracurriculars he loves. We're covering all the bases for future college applications without really thinking about it much on most days. He still has lots of time to watch too much TV and send countless texts to his friends. He sleeps late on weekends and has plenty of time to build things in the backyard and to read lots of books for fun. Some days, he even has time to be bored. I expect he will go to college, probably to a moderately selective school after doing a couple of years at the community college. He'll likely stay in state after that and claim the partial scholarship available on the basis of the ACT scores he's already earned. He may even live at home for all four years. Since I will by then be available to get a part-time job, we should be able to handle paying the remainder of his tuition and fees and other expenses without loans. Enjoying life as a teen doesn't have to mean crossing college off the list. Going to college doesn't have to mean piling up crushing debt. None of this has to be an either-or proposition. jenny, I actually think you and I are kindred spirits! Hahaha! Your first couple of sentences actually DO sum up how I feel about education, that it is not all about economics and ROI. I guess I just don't see that broadening my kids' horizons necessarily has to come at a cost of tens of thousands, nor do I think that exposure to the college environment itself is the Holy Grail of horizon broadening. Actually, for that, I'd prefer our kids went out into the real world through work study, gap year experiences, mission work, etc. I also don't want to relegate learning, and a love of it, to a dollar figure. But seriously, you give me an Amtrak rail pass, a library card, and a job at Walmart (where people's lives actually ARE different than our own) and I think there alone would be a heck of a lot of horizon broadening! Haha! I don't think it has to come from a professor, a wide student body, etc. Growing happens in all environments, many of which are a lot less costly! that library card is free, after all :D But the fact is, if one has no money toward college for kids, and if one has five children they are trying to steer, and if one is concerned about using their resources to the best of their ability then one simply can not ignore the Return on Investment for college. It is what will cause a young person to carefully consider their major, it is what will help them think carefully about whether they need that Big Name University on their diploma or the smaller one, it is what will help their future post-college. I mean, it is all wonderful and good to learn for learning's sake, but the real goal we need to keep in mind is that our children grow to adults who can support themselves with, hopefully, careers they don't despise! Otherwise, if we really don't need to worry about ROI, then send 'em where they want, let 'em get that degree in underwater basketweaving, and celebrate when they graduate and live with you forever on unemployment!! In most ways, it IS about ROI, whether or not most of us would prefer that it didn't necessarily have to be. And maybe...just maybe...if we weren't so concerned about pre-college perfection in high school, high school could be where our kids learn and develop the love of learning we so desire for them rather than forcing them to worry about ROI when they are 14 years old. Again, I am just throwing this stuff out here to learn from you all if anyone else is confused by where we are at as a country with all of this, and to maybe play devil's advocate a bit as well:cheers2: Don't hate me, OK??? Cindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I mean, it is all wonderful and good to learn for learning's sake, but the real goal we need to keep in mind is that our children grow to adults who can support themselves with, hopefully, careers they don't despise! Otherwise, if we really don't need to worry about ROI, then send 'em where they want, let 'em get that degree in underwater basketweaving, and celebrate when they graduate and live with you forever on unemployment!! In most ways, it IS about ROI, whether or not most of us would prefer that it didn't necessarily have to be. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then. My degree is in English. My daughter has a degree in theatre with a minor in music. See, I really do put my money where my mouth is. But, no, I absolutely do not consider it my primary goal to raise adults who can support themselves "hopefully" not hating their jobs. I consider it my goal to raise thoughtful, compassionate, well-educated adults who find a way to support themselves while also hopefully making the world a better place. Honestly, money is the least of my concerns. So, I think the education one gets in college IS the return on investment. Is college the only way to get an education? No. But it is the primary gateway to the kind of education I value. And it is also the admission ticket to the kinds of jobs and, more importantly, social groups in which my kids will be happiest. From a purely personal perspective: I got what many people perceive as a "useless" degree, and I've never regretted it one tiny bit for one single day of my life. My only regrets are not getting more education and/or attending a more challenging school. Meanwhile, my husband did not go to college and has regretted it his entire adult life. If my kids chose not to go to college, I'll respect that decision. However, I never, ever want to risk looking either of them in the eye when they hit 40 and having them tell me they resent me not making education a priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollyh Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Some extra quick thoughts- Just b/c your child wants to do some sort of trade doesn't mean they don't need college. I'm a photographer. That is a trade. However I really wish I would have had a business or marketing major in hand to help my business! (I have a teaching degree and used it until I had kids). A hair dresser while maybe only needing to go to trade school would probably benefit greatly from knowing how to manage a business, etc. Also, I don't think *most* kids know what they want to do when they grow up. Most college students don't. I think a large amount of people change jobs completely by 30 (don't remember the statistic). I think having at least a BA in SOMETHING helps them 1. have a leg up in getting a job if they need one 2. be able to get into a grad program of choice where they can specialize (without having to start school from the beginning). Personally, I would rather my kids get that schooling done immediately (even if they are not completely sure what they are going to do) rather than them start a family and try to get it done then while missing out on their kids childhood! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) IThe truth is, if we were not self-employed...and willing to accept the risks that go with that choice, we would not be anywhere near where we are today without additional education. We have carved out a life for us that works quite well, but it took years of sweat equity and risk. The life of the self-employed is not easy, but it can be far more rewarding for those for whom it is well suited. Cindy Just to add to the discussion from the other side of self-employment: We were a self-employed family for many years. It was really good when it was good. Dh's health tanked about the same time the economy took a nosedive for our industry. He's in his 50s. He doesn't have the stamina or health to go back to school. He wasn't even able to apply for jobs he could do well because of lack of a degree. It's taken a year and 3 jobs and a minor heart attack to find one that barely pays the bills and one he can physically do. Not quite the vision that we had in mind when he worked his butt off all these years. Self-employment is good and well when all is good and well. But his job is not something someone could go in and do and provide us income, he was the one doing the work. He's kicking himself for not finishing a degree years ago or even going to night school in his 20s or 30s when he had the ability. I abhor hoop-jumping and ds won't be padded a resume with a bunch of stuff that doesn't reflect who he is, but dh is adamant he finish a degree of some sort. It won't be with a lot of debt either, so that affects how I'm preparing the upcoming high school years. It's a challenge as I plan this year, do I fly with what he wants and what I know will be him? Do I bend the traditional subjects just enough to be him? Part of our issue is that we built a good ladder and when it crumbled, no one would even let us step on anything but a stepstool. A BA/BS as a certification that you can work hard does seem silly for some jobs (like the admin secretary at dh's last job!), but it's a common reality. In my own working years I topped out at two jobs because I lacked a degree. My dad spent his years with some college. Shortly before he retired they started requiring his position to be degreed. My dad would get mad because he'd be training "entitled jerks" (his words) who didn't know diddly about the job but were educated. I don't regret not having a degree. I regret no pursuing some passions that required one, however. I love to learn, I feel like I have a masters in the school of hard knocks. However, I'm raising a son that I hope will be in a position to support his family someday. He may want to change careers between his 20s and 50s. I truly believe there are industries not yet created that will be viable options for him. I don't want him to get pigeon-holed like we are. Even if he decides self-employment of any sort is right for him, he'll have a degree as a layer of security. If he were in elementary still I'd feel a little less adamant about college. I hope to see some of these individual certifications being used in industries more often. But it's a gamble with only four years left in school. I don't think the Titanic of education is going to turn around that quickly. I don't see college as the big bad money hungry bad guy. It's just a tool we'll use to make sure ds does get to have the life he wants, one he is willing to work towards. I am watching closely, and it's interesting to see how the changes will affect education long-term. Edited July 8, 2012 by elegantlion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarreymere Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I have five adult children. We always stressed the importance of education while they were growing up, and both dh and I are college graduates. Oddly our kids have always had a strong entrepreneurial streak and had developed some creative little businesses as they were growing up and consequently were not especially interested in applying to college. They had other ideas. I've learned a lot from them. Three of them have attended college, one is a nurse, one is in nursing school (after being a medic in Iraq), and one simply took a few classes to see what the big deal was. One is simply not 'college material' intellectually. All five are happy with their choices, the four who are not attending school right now are working or self-employed and making a good amount of money for our area. They are not in an unemployment line or on the verge of one, they are not stressed over bills, three own their own homes, all of them are pretty happy with their lives. Four are either married with children or have children. Sure, just like everyone else in the world they could use more cash, but none have trouble putting food on the table, putting gas in the car, and all have enough discretionary income to eat out fairly often, indulge in things like Ipods and Ipads, and have a little fun. For those who know me and my children, even my sociopath daughter who is often on the wrong side of the law and is actually currently in jail is on work release to continue working as a bartender and assistant club manager. Even from jail she makes more than my social worker dh! We do love learning for the sake of learning, and not going to college hasn't changed that for my kids. They are all aware that college was and is an option for them if they are interested. My younger ones (16,13,8, &5) are being carefully educated so that if college is something they are interested in they will be prepared. Heck, they are the sort of kids who might end up offered a scholarship or two, but it isn't something we stress over. We have no community college but we do have three state universities within a 45 minute drive, and one has a satellite campus in our small town. I have had it demonstrated for me that college is not necessary for a happy, financially comfortable life. I understand that not every kid is capable of starting or sustaining a small business, finding a good job with a high school diploma, or successful in finding and exploiting a service niche in a given community, but then again not every kid who invests in a college education is going to walk out with a good job either. I think so much depends on the kid and the kid's maturity, common sense, and initiative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 So I am wondering how others feel about this, about what an appropriate response should be to those who vehemently try to persuade our kids that there is only "one way". I know that this is probably outside the scope of what you're asking, but I will say that I see a lot of threads here about appropriate responses to this, that, or the other thing that was said to someone or their kids. I don't really think you need one. Your kids stated their opinion, and the woman asking the question stated hers. No one has to be right, and no one has to prove the other person wrong. People have differing opinions, and we don't have to have a "response" to every differing opinion we encounter. Nor do we have to protect our kids from differing opinions. Again, I know this probably isn't what you were looking for, but it's something that crosses my mind frequently when I read these types of threads. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyontheFarm Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 My kids will do post secondary for sure whether that be college, trade school or whatever. They will not however go itno debt for it. I don't want to steer my kids to or away from college. My goal is to give them enough skills and knowledge that there is no closed doors due to MY choices that will negatively affect THEIR lives. We hold the same position as you. But we are against them going just to go. My goal was always to prep my kids for whatever goals they choose, whether that be college, trade school, or whatever. I don't want to limit their choices. I want them to honestly be free to choose the life they want for themselves. I will NOT have them going into debt for it though. We have started funds for college or trade school and will recommend that they start setting aside money for it when they are getting close to high school years. College - go debt free, with the realistic understanding of what career will make you happy, knowing that happiness doesn't come in a pay cheque, but with your faith and who you are in your faith. Live a Purpose Driven Life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) . Edited July 9, 2012 by Danestress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) I would expect my kids to take college prep courses (which they have done/do) so either they have the best possible high school education they can get - and are in good stead to go on to cc, trade school, no school, etc. OR apply to and go to a four-year college with out any time off. But the choice is not there is they do not prepare for college in the first place. College as a possibility does not have to mean AP courses and lots of extra curricula and sweating SAT/ACT scores etc unless the kid wants to do all that and/or is aiming for a merit scholarship. CollegeMan, a rising junior majoring in chemistry at a LAC, is there on a top merit scholarship due to his seven high AP scores, high ACT score, high GPA etc. He is already talking about graduate school. I think he plans to be a Mad Scientist ;-) CollegeMiss is starting cc to get a certificate (not a AA degree) in retail marketing as that is what she is interested in. She has found that a mere high school diploma alone won't get her a good job - heck, ANY job, around here. She is not interested as much as her older brother in academics, so a certificate program seems to fit her better. She already worked a year at Sears (age 16) and is more interested in getting a job than studying anything. The youngest, a rising 10th grader, is still plugging away at college track, although she does not have any idea what she wants to do yet. IF she does decide on a career track that needs college, she will be able to go that way since she will have prepared herself. I see no reason to expect a kid to know as a young teen what career they want to follow as an adult. I think it is important to not close any doors when they are young so they can go to college - or not - when they are adults. I do think it wise to talk about and explore all sorts of trades and professions when they are young, to help them see that college is not the be-all and end-all. You know - I need to add my sister's tale. She married young, to a slightly older guy who had a BA but had HATED college. He did not support my sister- a potential MENSA member (IQ over 160 I kid you not!) going to college when they could live nicer when they BOTH had jobs, so she worked a a bank teller and slowly, via night school, got her AA degree at local CC. Then she stopped. Years, two kids, time flies - so does BIL, as he is a pilot. Then he has heart trouble and the FAA grounds him permanently. In fact, he is permanently disabled and can not work much of any job (no one wants to hire him). Sister, with only a two-year degree, is now the sole breadwinner. At the bank where she works she has advanced as far as she can go without a four-year degree. She pretty much runs a department yet answers to younger people who make more money and are positioned over her since they have that bit of paper with a BA on it. Edited July 8, 2012 by JFSinIL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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