k2bdeutmeyer Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 So, a woman just came to my door saying she had just moved into the neighborhood (the only house for sale on the street is still for sale) and she was wanting help to get "just one can of baby formula". She said the church next door told her they would take up a collection, but basically she didn't have time to wait. She said something about paying me back, seeing her ID, etc.....but she needed "just one can of baby formula". I don't carry cash, so I really didn't have anything to give her anyway, but I attempted to give her a few ideas of places to try, but she kinda cut me off saying she had been to a lot of places and they all told her that they have food, but that the baby formula always goes fast. I apologized and she went on her way. What would you have done? I really was put on the spot and felt a bit flustered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 If this happened in my neighborhood I'd probably call the police to report it...probably up to no good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Exactly what you did. I strongly suspect a scam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I would not believe a word she said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I'd strongly consider calling the police. She sounds like a scammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I would have given her something out of my larder. I don't keep baby formula around but I would have given her something else. And I would have offered to take her to the local Community Pregnancy Center, and would have called a cab to do this, and paid for it. They give formula away there. I would rather pay for a cab than get skammed by just giving out money, but I would rather get skammed sometimes than turn down someone in real need out of fear. Also, if I connected her directly with the CPC, she would be linked in and get ongoing support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I would not believe a word she said. :iagree: A tad brazen! Did you ask her which house? I would suggest she return to the church to use their phone to call some food banks. I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen in PA Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I'd strongly consider calling the police. She sounds like a scammer. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom28kds Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Something similar happened to me one time in a parking lot. I can't remember what the man said but when I read what you put it sounded like the same kind of thing. It had something to do with his pregnant wife and family. He needed money. We tried to help in other ways but it was only the money he was interested in. If someone really needs help they will take and appreciate anything. I believe mine was a scam and I believe yours was the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Check your perimeter. She's the advance person on the thief squad - she's to see that no one is home and find out what the dog situation is, or she's to distract you while they go in through the back. Call the police and give the best description you can, including vehicle. :iagree:There are places that she can get formula if there were an emergency (most people that need something from a neighbour don't have a mile long list of why they can['t get it from somewhere else. They generally ask a neighbour first out of convenience). She didn't "just move" to the neighborhood as you noted. She's after something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssavings Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I probably would have offered to buy her the can of formula and drop it off at the church for her. I assume she'd turn down that offer, but at least I'd have tried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenL Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Definitely call the police with a clear description of her. She is either an individual scammer or she is part of a group of thieves and she is scouting out the area for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I'd have told her what I tell the girl scouts, "Sorry I don't keep cash in the house." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2denj Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Check your perimeter. She's the advance person on the thief squad - she's to see that no one is home and find out what the dog situation is, or she's to distract you while they go in through the back. Call the police and give the best description you can, including vehicle. :iagree::iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nono Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Check your perimeter. She's the advance person on the thief squad - she's to see that no one is home and find out what the dog situation is, or she's to distract you while they go in through the back. Call the police and give the best description you can, including vehicle. EXACTLY my thoughts. Lock your back door and check all your first floor windows to be sure they are locked. Keep an eye on your storage shed/garage/etc. I don't mean to frighten you, but you may have already been hit. Do you keep loose items out back, like a bike? Verify that all that type of stuff is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 My imagination running away with me here...but I wonder if she was scoping out houses for later robbery. If she could identify the homes with small infants (and barking dogs, too), wouldn't the moms be easier targets because they would be protecting their babies while allowing the thieves to take anything they wanted? I would certainly lock all my doors and keep them locked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I'd strongly consider calling the police. She sounds like a scammer. This, EXCEPT I don't answer the door for strangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenaj Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Lock everything up and be careful for a few days/weeks! Honestly, one of our former neighbors actually did this to us and we felt bad for her and helped her out two times. Our house was broken into and robbed a few weeks later . . police felt that she had used the information she gained from living in the neighborhood and from those two other trips to our house to case the "Joint". We knew immediately who had done it . . . have found out since that she was desperate for drugs and stole from several people the same weekend. It's terrible to always have to be suspicious but that's the way I am now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) If she actually had the baby with her, I probably would have offered to leave my dd with dh and to drive her to the store and buy her a can of formula. If she turned that down, I'd have given her the address to the WIC office. They'll give her vouchers for all the formula she needs. It would all depend on what my creepdar was telling me, though. If it was extremely obvious she was trying to scam me, I would have just offered her a ride to the WIC office with a big smile. ETA: I wouldn't worry about it being a robbery in our case, because ours isn't the neighborhood most people typically target. Lots of broke college students and poor old people in subsidized apartments. Plus, we're a couple blocks from the police station. Edited March 15, 2012 by Mergath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) Check your perimeter. She's the advance person on the thief squad - she's to see that no one is home and find out what the dog situation is, or she's to distract you while they go in through the back. Call the police and give the best description you can, including vehicle. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: Do not take this lightly. Call the police!!! She could have been scoping out your house, or hoping to be invited inside so she (and possibly some friends you didn't see) could harm you or your family.) Her request was incredibly odd, and you know she was lying about being new in the neighborhood. So call the police NOW, and don't offer to go to the station to file a report -- have them come to your house and look around the yard, etc., so if this woman is casing the neighborhood, she will know that the police have been alerted. For all you know, she could be breaking into a neighbor's house right now. And stop opening the door for strangers. Edited March 15, 2012 by Catwoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 That's a common and established scam. She either wanted money or to see if you're a good mark for a burglary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k2bdeutmeyer Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 You guys are amazing. I would NEVER have thought of the whole "casing the joint" thing. Apparently, I am very naive, lol. I did call the police. The took me/my story very seriously and were going to send a patrol car out to see if she was still in the area. I feel very uncomfortable now. Our neighborhood is filled with mostly people of retirement age. VERY modest homes, but in a good/middle class area of town. A typical neighborhood with houses from the 50's and 60's. So, it wouldn't be one I would think would be a big target for thieves, but clearly, I don't know that much about thieves, lol! Thanks for all the advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nono Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I feel very uncomfortable now. Our neighborhood is filled with mostly people of retirement age. VERY modest homes, but in a good/middle class area of town. A typical neighborhood with houses from the 50's and 60's. So, it wouldn't be one I would think would be a big target for thieves, but clearly, I don't know that much about thieves, lol! Thanks for all the advice! NO, you are right. She's a dumb thief (if she is one)! Retirees see things. And, they call the police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k2bdeutmeyer Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 NO, you are right. She's a dumb thief (if she is one)! Retirees see things. And, they call the police. So do 30-somethings with the Hive to back them up :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I am very relieved that the police are coming over to investigate. Depending on the thieves, they may view some of your elderly neighbors as being easy targets (the "old and weak" stereotype.) There's also the possibility that they didn't know the first thing about the neighborhood, and that's why they sent the woman door-to-door, so they could see how many people were at home, and whether or not anyone threatened to call the police on her. If you get a chance, definitely mention this to your neighbors so they will all know to keep their eyes open for anything suspicious, like a strange car or van parked in the area, anyone walking around with a backpack, unfamiliar joggers, etc. It's better to be a little paranoid than to be a victim when you've probably already met a potential criminal at your own front door today. Doublecheck to be sure your doors and windows are locked, and if you hear any strange noises or see anyone in or near your yard, do not go outside and check it out. Call the police and let them handle it. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 It's not just upper-crust neighborhoods that get hit anymore. Thieves are everywhere. That's why I always tell people (esp around Christmas time) that if they make a big-ticket purchase to break the box up and put it in a trash bag, don't just leave it out to advertise that you just got a 65" tv or a new Bose surround system. Thieves want easy and they usually don't want to encounter people in their way. I'm glad the cops took it seriously. Be safe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k2bdeutmeyer Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 My kids were in the backyard playing, so I know nothing was taken from there. My garage was also open with my van in it, so I just went out and checked that out, and everything looks fine in there too. I was, however, sitting here on the couch on my laptop when she walked up. She saw me clearly through the window as she spoke to me through the open window before I even came to the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Education Explorers Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I am very relieved that the police are coming over to investigate. Depending on the thieves, they may view some of your elderly neighbors as being easy targets (the "old and weak" stereotype.) There's also the possibility that they didn't know the first thing about the neighborhood, and that's why they sent the woman door-to-door, so they could see how many people were at home, and whether or not anyone threatened to call the police on her. If you get a chance, definitely mention this to your neighbors so they will all know to keep their eyes open for anything suspicious, like a strange car or van parked in the area, anyone walking around with a backpack, unfamiliar joggers, etc. It's better to be a little paranoid than to be a victim when you've probably already met a potential criminal at your own front door today. Doublecheck to be sure your doors and windows are locked, and if you hear any strange noises or see anyone in or near your yard, do not go outside and check it out. Call the police and let them handle it. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: These women are NOT being paranoid, but are giving you very sound advice. I was a prosecutor for seven years here in Atlanta. This is an extremely typical scenario for the beginnings of burglaries and home invasions. A "scam" would be the best post possible scenario--much less dangerous to you and your family. Do NOT open the doors to any strangers-- little old ladies included. Do not open the door with a chain attached at the top to talk to someone. A strong shoulder will bust through that in seconds. However, if your doorbell is rung, go to the door. Do NOT open it. You want the person at the door to know that the home is occupied. Just shout through the door that you are "not interested" or that if they need assistance, you'd be happy to call the police for them. Manners should never come before your safety. Better to be safe and perceived as rude if the person's intentions are honorable than becoming a victim. Keep all doors and windows locked and report anything out of the ordinary to the police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Yep, here's another vote for not opening doors for anyone you don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k2bdeutmeyer Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 Oh, close and lock that garage door, especially if it is an attached garage. You don't need pop up visitors in the vehicle or in the bldg. Ask the officer to do a quick look see in there. It is attached. **shudder** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnificent_baby Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Did you specifically check to make sure your keys are in the vehicle (if you left them in there) OR that the garage door opener was not missing?? How scary! So glad you called the police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Did you specifically check to make sure your keys are in the vehicle (if you left them in there) OR that the garage door opener was not missing?? How scary! So glad you called the police. Definitely check on the garage door opener -- so many people lock up their homes, yet leave their garage door openers inside unlocked cars all day long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k2bdeutmeyer Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 Did you specifically check to make sure your keys are in the vehicle (if you left them in there) OR that the garage door opener was not missing?? How scary! So glad you called the police. No, I didn't. I'll go do that right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 These women are NOT being paranoid, but are giving you very sound advice. I was a prosecutor for seven years here in Atlanta. This is an extremely typical scenario for the beginnings of burglaries and home invasions. A "scam" would be the best post possible scenario--much less dangerous to you and your family. Do NOT open the doors to any strangers-- little old ladies included. Do not open the door with a chain attached at the top to talk to someone. A strong shoulder will bust through that in seconds. However, if your doorbell is rung, go to the door. Do NOT open it. You want the person at the door to know that the home is occupied. Just shout through the door that you are "not interested" or that if they need assistance, you'd be happy to call the police for them. Manners should never come before your safety. Better to be safe and perceived as rude if the person's intentions are honorable than becoming a victim. Keep all doors and windows locked and report anything out of the ordinary to the police. :iagree: Excellent advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Well said. And I would also suggest that you start closing the garage door when you're home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Check your perimeter. She's the advance person on the thief squad - she's to see that no one is home and find out what the dog situation is, or she's to distract you while they go in through the back. Call the police and give the best description you can, including vehicle. agree. The thieves know folks are not likely to slam the door shut on a sob story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhomemaker25 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Turned around and grabbed one of the three cans of baby formula I have ready to go to the crisis pregnancy center by the door and handed it to her. :tongue_smilie: Then laughed at the expression on her face, because I'm bettin' she did not need money for baby formula. Sorry. We've handed people who said the were hungry food from our grocery bags and had them get ticked off and throw it back at us. It's really given me trust issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k2bdeutmeyer Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 Turned around and grabbed one of the three cans of baby formula I have ready to go to the crisis pregnancy center by the door and handed it to her. :tongue_smilie: Then laughed at the expression on her face, because I'm bettin' she did not need money for baby formula. Sorry. We've handed people who said the were hungry food from our grocery bags and had them get ticked off and throw it back at us. It's really given me trust issues. I've never had anyone come to my door asking for anything before. Only door to door salesmen (which are pretty rare too) and political campaigners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
july19 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 This scam has been happening around my area, too! It hasn't happened in my specific neighborhood yet, but the local news has even started talking about it and my mother in law said it was in the paper. Same exact scenario, too. Baby formula, just one can would help, etc. Several houses have since been robbed. Please be careful and I am so glad that you called the police and that they took you seriously. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k2bdeutmeyer Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 This scam has been happening around my area, too! It hasn't happened in my specific neighborhood yet, but the local news has even started talking about it and my mother in law said it was in the paper. Same exact scenario, too. Baby formula, just one can would help, etc. Several houses have since been robbed. Please be careful and I am so glad that you called the police and that they took you seriously. =) I only wish I could know if they found her..... I checked the garage, keys, door opener, etc....all is where it should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoughCollie Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) I only wish I could know if they found her..... You can call the administrative number (not 911) of your police department and ask. While you are at it, find out if solicitors have to get a permit from the police. They did in my former town. When I saw door-to-door poll takers, salespeople, and strangers, I'd call the administrative number to see if they had a permit. They never did, so the police would come by immediately. I lived in a town where the crime rate was miniscule. Part of that was due to the police department's attention to detail. I had five scammers/potential criminals come by in 15 years, and I called the police about each of them. Now I live out in the country and it takes the state police an hour or more to get here. I have a dog who is a great watchdog who has developed a deep bark and growl since he reached maturity, and looks very scary when he is leaping around sounding the alarm. I also have two mature, retired, male neighbors who will hoof it right over with their guns if I call them about any problems. So far, we have avoided gunfights here at the Okay Corral. :-) Edited March 15, 2012 by RoughCollie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.Balaban Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Another thing is that formula is one of the most shoplifted items because of it's high resale value AND it is often used to mix heroine and cocaine. This is what I was thinking of too. But given what everyone else's input is on the issue, I would be very worried about her being a potential criminal. I am so glad you called the police. :grouphug: I hope that the police catch up to her before she robs anyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brehon Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 <snip> Do NOT open the doors to any strangers-- little old ladies included. Do not open the door with a chain attached at the top to talk to someone. A strong shoulder will bust through that in seconds. However, if your doorbell is rung, go to the door. Do NOT open it. You want the person at the door to know that the home is occupied. Just shout through the door that you are "not interested" or that if they need assistance, you'd be happy to call the police for them. Manners should never come before your safety. Better to be safe and perceived as rude if the person's intentions are honorable than becoming a victim. Keep all doors and windows locked and report anything out of the ordinary to the police. All of this post is good and the bolded bears repeating. So many women are victims of assaults, robberies, rapes, etc because they don't want anyone to think they're rude or without manners or whatever. Criminals count on that "conditioning". So, always listen to your gut and to hell with what anyone thinks, especially when your/your family's safety might be on the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Having been in that situation not too long ago... Many food pantries give people who qualify food the day they apply. Even if they do not qualify -- people can get 1 or 2 bags of food. And many food banks have lots of diapers and formula as the core demographic are young families. :confused: Something seems amiss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillian Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 agree. The thieves know folks are not likely to slam the door shut on a sob story I did this the other day....someone came to the door, clearly one of those "buy my magazines so I can get home" or some other cr*p. I had just heard a big truck and we were expecting something from UPS/FedEx so when the doorbell rang I went down to grab the package (I don't like it sitting on the porch if I'm home). It wasn't UPS it was the folks trying to sell stuff. They got into the "Hi I'm wondering if you'd like to buy some magazines to help me get home" I said "no soliciting, come back and I'll call the police" and shut the door in their faces and deadbolted it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindyz Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I have read several reports of this lately and it appears to be a scam. Someone will knock on the door and say they are a neighbor and they locked their keys in the house and his wife was in an accident and will you take him to the hospital and btw, he needs $60 for the locksmith and will pay you back as soon as he gets home from the hospital that night, etc. I guess it's an easy scam to take advantage of since people don't know their neighbors anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 You guys are amazing. I would NEVER have thought of the whole "casing the joint" thing. Apparently, I am very naive, lol. I did call the police. The took me/my story very seriously and were going to send a patrol car out to see if she was still in the area. I feel very uncomfortable now. Our neighborhood is filled with mostly people of retirement age. VERY modest homes, but in a good/middle class area of town. A typical neighborhood with houses from the 50's and 60's. So, it wouldn't be one I would think would be a big target for thieves, but clearly, I don't know that much about thieves, lol! Thanks for all the advice! I live in a similar area and we're a HUGE target because 1) older people are often naive, 2) older people often keep prescription meds out in the open and 3) older people often keeps lots of cash at home. My elderly neighbor was robbed by a young man she had been "helping". He gave her a big story about needing food for his 6 brothers and sisters so she gave him $5 every now and then. When she decided to not give him anymore, he followed her into her house and stole her purse. He could have EASILY killed her. Her kids made her move to a better neighborhood a few months later. All the posts from people who would give this woman a ride really scare me! Please don't be so naive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 All the posts from people who would give this woman a ride really scare me! Please don't be so naive! :iagree: Maybe it's a regional thing or something, because no one I know would ever offer a ride to a stranger. I guess people in different areas are more trusting of others, but not here. I am of the opinion that most lunatics do not look like lunatics. They do not act like lunatics. They are nice, polite, "normal-looking" people... until you let them into your car or your home. Then they let you know that they are lunatics. But by then, it's too late. :eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Scam. And, as someone noted, baby formula is very easy to sell, so they're not too disappointed even if you give them that. I can't imagine any church or crisis center refusing to give her a single can of formula, and she said she had been to several places, so definitely not believable, imo. Someone mentioned bringing her to the store to buy formula - please don't, that's very dangerous! You are not safe simply because she is a woman holding a baby. Really, I cannot overly emphasize how dangerous that is; it would be MUCH better to simply hand over some cash. Or, if you truly feel the person may be genuine, ask them to point out which house they just moved into, so you can have your dh drop some formula by later. No one wants to turn away someone in need, but remember, she has supposedly just moved into a single family home - that requires a certain amount of resources. No one with a baby moves into a house and then realizes they not only have no formula, but also not a bit of cash, no credit card, AND not a single person they actually know to ask for help, AND the baby is so young that she can't get by with baby food and/or milk for a single day. Even if all those weird things occurred, who the heck asks the new neighbors for cash? You would ask if anyone on the street has a baby, so maybe you can borrow a can of formula. Someone else mentioned a person in the parking lot saying something about their pregnant wife and asking for money. The usual story for this one is that the wife is in labor RIGHT NOW, and wouldn't you know, he ran out of gas on the way there. Tell these people that you can't help, but you'll be glad to call the police when you get home, and they'll send a patrol car to give him a ride. Don't offer to call right then; you don't want to be distracted by pulling your phone out of your purse, etc. Again, who does that? If you ran out of gas on the way to the hospital, even in a strange town where you know no one, would you start walking up to people and asking for money? I certainly wouldn't. I'd call or flag down a police car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuirkyKapers Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 :grouphug: I am glad you called the police. I agree with others, the whole situation seems very strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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