I finally saw the movie, "The Help". Have a ?

[mcconnellboys]

And this goes on in Saudi Arabia, I've read, as well as in many other metropolitan areas around the world. There will always be an immigrant class coming in for work who will be at risk; an ethnic minority or different cultural group who are discriminated against. We still have similar problems today occurring with illegals here, many of them Mexican. There have been numerous allegations over the past decade of employers keeping women as virtual slaves to clean their houses, etc....

[Renee in NC]

Well, of course I think it's exaggerated. I don't have a maid now, but we did growing up, she was the boss and she brought her baby to work with her, not all the time but sometimes. When she told us to do something we all jumped, and I mean mom and dad too.

 

My brother and sil's maid brings her boys to work, they swim in the pool and play with my nephews. My youngest nephew thinks they are his cousins. I think they pay for her car. She is treated with huge respect and love.

 

This was true with my grandparents. I posted recently about a man I had known my whole life dying. He and his wife went to work for my grandparents in Alabama in the 1950s. He moved here to NC with them. Later, he moved to OH with my dad and then back to NC again. My father spoke at his funeral. He was *family* not just "the help."

 

My grandmother had a maid that was with her for 30 years or more. Bea was the boss. You did NOT walk on Bea's clean floor. You just didn't. She was family, too. She worked for my grandmother long past the time that my grandmother needed her. She kept paying her to come once a week (and picking her up at her home in addition) because they were friends and they enjoyed each other's company. Bea still did the ironing, though.;)

 

Last week, when my aunt was here, she took my grandmother and Bea out to dinner. They don't get to see each other much now that my grandmother doesn't drive.

 

As for socioeconomic class, I think my grandparent's would have fallen into the upper middle class, but things are very different now than they were then. My grandfather was a scientist for Monsanto and then worked for the EPA. Looking at today's GS salary scales, he would have been in the $120K range today.

[Jennifer3141]

I come from a long line of northerners and East Coast liberals and actually, I have family that partcipated in the Underground Railroad. So there's my perspective... But I've always wondered about southerners who claim that the help was "family."

 

Did you celebrate holidays with them? Did you ever go to their homes? Because that's what MY family does during holidays.

 

 

This was true with my grandparents. I posted recently about a man I had known my whole life dying. He and his wife went to work for my grandparents in Alabama in the 1950s. He moved here to NC with them. Later, he moved to OH with my dad and then back to NC again. My father spoke at his funeral. He was *family* not just "the help."

 

My grandmother had a maid that was with her for 30 years or more. Bea was the boss. You did NOT walk on Bea's clean floor. You just didn't. She was family, too. She worked for my grandmother long past the time that my grandmother needed her. She kept paying her to come once a week (and picking her up at her home in addition) because they were friends and they enjoyed each other's company. Bea still did the ironing, though.;)

 

Last week, when my aunt was here, she took my grandmother and Bea out to dinner. They don't get to see each other much now that my grandmother doesn't drive.

 

As for socioeconomic class, I think my grandparent's would have fallen into the upper middle class, but things are very different now than they were then. My grandfather was a scientist for Monsanto and then worked for the EPA. Looking at today's GS salary scales, he would have been in the $120K range today.

[mommaduck]

"the truth is always somewhere in the middle"

 

To be honest, I liked the book. Yes, there were some things that were exaggerated (including That Horrible, Awful Thing). However, I liked that the book showed that treatment of others ranged the gamut. This included treatment of the help, treatment of other people (Cecilia), treatment of those within their own social spheres (Skeeter), etc. There were the good, the bad, the ugly, and those that were willingly blinded (Mama). We read about it in the black community in The Help as well. The way the help viewed and treated others varied...both in and outside of their own community. The book attempted to touch on all of this, in ONE book. They had to cram it in. And given the context of the era it was placed in, I think the era was the perfect catalyst in and of itself. The author did the best she could. There were good families to work for, there were those that were tolerated, and those that were awful. The viewpoint from the employers will vary, but by how much will depend upon the relationship, personal views of those involved, and how they all treated one another.

 

Maybe that's just my view from being a Southerner, but first a Third Culture Kid, and one that is Native American/White/ and possibly even with some Black (six of my siblings, that is definite for...three of them are part Mexican...and two of them are entirely white). And I've been *the help* (sometimes it was good, sometimes it was tolerated, and sometimes it was ugly). The only family where it was more "like family" was for one family that was military and another where the dad was white and the mom was Mexican.

Edited January 7, 2012 by mommaduck

[Susan in TN]

and how real/true was The Help ?

 

I read the book recently, and my BIL saw the movie. He said that it was an "exact" picture of my in-law's home growing up, except that they lived on Long Island, NY, and they weren't aware of a black community like the one described in The Help. My dh was raised by a black Jamaican woman, who until her recent death, called dh her son (she had no children of her own). Dh actually had a Jamaican accent when he was young.:D They also had a black housekeeper, Pearl, who came every day to clean.

 

When she needed living assistance, dh's nanny went to live in FL with her relatives - neices and nephew, and their children. We went to visit every year or so, but always felt this strange vibe in the house - they would make us a nice lunch or dinner, but the family would never eat with us - not even dh's nanny. It never occurred to me, until I read The Help, that that may have been what they believed what was expected around "white folks"?

 

ETA: Dh's family would say that they loved their "help" like family and treated them as such, but that's really not true and probably a good thing since they are fairly disfunctional.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Susan in TN

[mommaduck]

Whenever a system is set up in which one group has power over another, there will be abuses. I cannot comment on the veracity of The Help, but I could imagine every incident in it being transposed to Hong Kong in the 1990s and the treatment of Filipina maids by middle class families there. The Filipinas' visas were dependent on their contracts with a particular family: if the contract was cancelled for any reason, then they had no right to remain in Hong Kong. The salary that they were paid often supported a large extended family, or was putting children through university. The power was all with the employers and abuse was common; there is also a racial aspect to this relationship.

 

Laura

I know of a Filipina that was contracted with a Saudi Arabian family. It reminded me very much of the South (if we were to broadbrush rather than take in the spectrum). They thought of her as family on one hand, but she was still "the help". They did try to control what she did, where she went, who she saw, when she could leave to see her family, etc (okay, some of that is beyond the South). She finally married an American (kinda a mail ordered bride deal).

[Renee in NC]

I come from a long line of northerners and East Coast liberals and actually, I have family that partcipated in the Underground Railroad. So there's my perspective... But I've always wondered about southerners who claim that the help was "family."

 

Did you celebrate holidays with them? Did you ever go to their homes? Because that's what MY family does during holidays.

 

:001_huh:

 

My grandparents aren't from the south - they grew up in Missouri and lived all over the place, so your generalizations don't apply here. Would you have made the same insinuations had I posted that they met him when they lived on Long Island?

 

I keep typing things out and erasing them - that is a sign to me that I need to stop posting. I don't get emotional over threads anymore.;) Maybe I am just ultra-sensitive because Arbie died right before Thanksgiving, but either way, I will bow out here.

[Pink Fairy]

I've wondered that same thing. I wish someone really would write a nonfiction book like The Help.

[mommaduck]

I've wondered that same thing. I wish someone really would write a nonfiction book like The Help.

Look up the Slave Narratives. I believe some of them tell stories about working for families even after slavery was abolished.

[Pink Fairy]

I'll look into that, but since The Help was set 100 years after slavery I'd like to believe conditions had changed for the better by then.

[mommaduck]

I'll look into that, but since The Help was set 100 years after slavery I'd like to believe conditions had changed for the better by then.

Sometimes yes and sometimes no.

 

I will say, that I found the Midwest to worse irt racial issues than I found the Southern Coastal region to be. I took a train home to see my siblings and meet my dad (hadn't seen him since I was two...another story) a few years ago to Charleston. Two elderly ladies, one black and one white, were both on their way to Georgia. They were having a wonderful conversation, had both been to visit family in New York, and both were talking about how happy they were to be coming back south "where people were nicer to each other". It might all be a matter of POV (DH and I kinda like the Mid-Atlantic states...but maybe it's because we get some of the humor, don't fit in a box, etc?)?

[BMW]

I went to school for one year (9th grade) in southern Arkansas. This was early 80's... slavery had been abolished for quite a while, right? You'd think that people had come a long way by then, right?

 

Well... there was still a "black side of the road" several places...

 

I didn't know better than to be friendly with the blacks and whites, so the whites didn't like me much... (I was raised in California)...

 

I saw a white girl give a high five to a black girl and then wipe her hands on her jeans, with a grimace...

 

I had black girls like me because I seemed poor, but then when I had more than she originally thought, I suddenly lost that friend...

 

It's terribly sad.

 

I am ashamed of that town and the people. Very ashamed.

 

Anyway, that's part of my life story. Just adding it in... because it was the 80's!!!

[Carol in Cal.]

Read the stories of the Arkansas Nine sometime.

 

There is a lot that was too dangerous to say openly in the south, and although CA is and was not perfect (read "Not a Genuine Black Man" sometime for some more detail on that) it was far safer than Arkansas for African-Americans in the middle part of the last century.

 

Also remember in "The Help" when the maids are talking and someone asks them how they feel about some race issue and they disavow any interest in it? It's clear in the movie AND the book that they are lying. It's also clear in both that the white questioner is deceived by this. That is a very typical pattern in an extremely unequal power structure. It should not be a surprise that people sometimes think that things are better than they really are, in those kinds of circumstances.

[Beetkvass]

I saw it as grossly exaggerated. Every family I knew in my parents' hometown in Mississippi had a maid, and they were treated very well. No one would have dreamed of speaking unkindly to a maid. Maids stayed with families for years, and sometimes generations (my grandmother's maid stayed with her for over 50 years). Families didn't become "best buddies" with their maids, but these were employer-employee relationships.

 

I was horrified at the cake incident. I simply cannot envision something like that happening among the people I knew. The maids (and most of the employing families) I knew were all Christians, and they treated each other with kindness.

 

My family lived in Mississippi during that time period as well. My father was basically raised by their black maid Gwen. My grandmother was shockingly at the time divorced and a single parent. Gwen was family. They loved her and she loved them. She worked for them for many years till my grandmother was remarried with two more children and they had to move out of state. I went in my early teens to meet Gwen when she was in her 90's and in a nursing home. This was nearly 50 years after she'd stopped working for my grandmother. I found out at that time that my grandmother had been sending a check to Gwen every month all that time. You don't just do that for someone who is nothing more than "help".

 

My mil is from Charleston and she was raised by a black maid as well, whose name I do not know. Yes, mil kept in touch with her till she died. And she viewed her as more of a mother than her own mother. Her own mother was very cold and unfeeling and very distant to her children. This woman might have been paid to take care of my mil but they had a much greater bond than just hired help and she loved her very much. True it was a different time and place and culture. But I do know in these instances in my family's experience they were people they loved and bonded with and cared for long after they left their employment.

[Guest]

Look at Hilly. She was a b!tch to everyone. She didn't care what color they were. Look at how she treated her own momma. Then look at Skeeter. She treated everyone with kindness, except that jerk date, and she even gave him a second chance.

 

What played a part in how the women were treated were the people doing the treating. They either treated people well or they didn't.

 

Treating people badly does not make you a racist. It makes you an @ss. Generalizations about a race make you a racist.

 

Sure, but the Hilly character does make generalizations about race. She wants a separate bathroom because "they carry different diseases." She wants the "health initiative" because she believes the black help will give her a disease. I agree the Hilly character is also a world class @ss, but she is a racist and that is the conflict that is the point of the story.

 

Whenever a system is set up in which one group has power over another, there will be abuses. I cannot comment on the veracity of The Help, but I could imagine every incident in it being transposed to Hong Kong in the 1990s and the treatment of Filipina maids by middle class families there. The Filipinas' visas were dependent on their contracts with a particular family: if the contract was cancelled for any reason, then they had no right to remain in Hong Kong. The salary that they were paid often supported a large extended family, or was putting children through university. The power was all with the employers and abuse was common; there is also a racial aspect to this relationship.

 

Laura

 

That's a good analogy and an astute point.

 

FWIW, I loved the book and I just watched the movie and cried a multitude of tears. I have never lived in the south, but I am sure it is a good depiction. Without a doubt, there were sure to be employers who were fair and others who were not. It would not surprise me if many employers who thought they were fair and providing a decent job actually did not treat them as well as they believed. Sort of with still an air of superiority that communicated, "...but you're just the help."

[jamajo]

Seriously!!!!???? This is why more truth is needed when it comes to subjects like this. I was raised in Jackson, Mississippi. With a looong line domestics throughout my family and community. This book and movie did not even tell the half of the mistreatment that they endured. Just because servants and nannies may walk around with a smile and things may seem delightful to the families that employ them, it is usually not so.

 

These people who endured mistreated did so because they needed to feed and edicate their families, not because they were bosom buddies with their employees.

 

I would almost compare your statement to when someone says that slavery wasn't all that bad!

 

I knew the conversation was going to go here I was just waiting. . . hoping it wasn't going to get ugly. Honestly, when I read the OP comment that the quoter above is referring to I felt something hit the pit of my stomach but I recovered b/c I have to remind myself that we all see the world from our own perspective which is deeply rooted in our own experiences. So that is to be expected.

 

These subjects should HELP (no pun intended) us have a conversation and bring understanding. None of us witnessed these things but we all fully know that the worst of things happened and the best of things happened during this time. The women who have personally had maids and witnessed "family" like treatment of their help - of course that was your family's wonderful experience so its hard to believe the horror stories. The poster who is quoted above and I have personal stories from the other side of things that our grandmothers and great aunts experienced (I will spare you the details). The emotions still run deep on both sides of the fence (which is amazing to me) but that is just the reality of our American story. One poster hit the nail on the head when commenting about being the minority in any group can possibly set you up for abuses or mistreatment every time no matter your race.

 

You know what is interesting to me - I live in a very diverse group area with homeschoolers from all races and walks of life but white homeschoolers are still the majority. I can feel the wall go up when I enter a homeschool function where people don't quite know me yet so I do the song and dance to make everyone feel comfortable that hey I'm here for the same reason you are here for and its OKAY.... it's funny but it is what it is. We still do have a RACE issue in this country - it's subtle but we have it and it runs really deep. We will never understand fully the other guy's experience and emotions but we can be cordial, kind, and respectful.

 

Can we go back to talking about something we all can agree on - homeschooling? Oh...that's right we have divisions there as well - classical, unschooling, school at home, charlotte mason .... :lol:

[Heather in Neverland]

But I've always wondered about southerners who claim that the help was "family." Did you celebrate holidays with them? Did you ever go to their homes? Because that's what MY family does during holidays.

 

 

We have "help". We have a nanny/maid that lives with our family Mon-Fri and goes home on the weekends. She has been with us for two years ever since we adopted our baby girl. She is absolutely "family". She AND her extended family (her kids, her mom, her sisters, nieces, nephews, etc) come to our holiday gatherings, birthday parties AND we go to theirs.

 

In fact, at most of our gatherings there are more of her Indian family there than there are of our "white" friends. And we went to her church for Christmas Eve service even though the whole thing was in Tamil and we didn't understand a word of it. We LOVE her and her daughters and we are paying for her oldest daughter's college tuition. They are our family.

 

There are many, many maids here who are mistreated. It is awful to see and truly, it is more the norm than our relationship with Prema (we refer to her by her name typically when speaking about her... I don't call her our "maid" IRL... or we call her Natalie's amah which means "grandma"). She eats dinner at the table every night with our family and I usually make HER plate and hand it to her just as I do for all the members of our family. We go shopping at the mall together, have tea every afternoon together, talk about our family, our life, our hopes and dreams. In our home, she is FAMILY.

 

The book and the movie hurt my heart because I know that people were and are treated that way and I know that Prema was treated that way in the past by other employers. It makes me want to cry that someone could treat her that way. She is like a surrogate mother to me and I cant imagine her not in our lives.

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Heather in NC

[littleWMN]

I went to school for one year (9th grade) in southern Arkansas. This was early 80's... slavery had been abolished for quite a while, right? You'd think that people had come a long way by then, right?

 

Well... there was still a "black side of the road" several places...

 

I didn't know better than to be friendly with the blacks and whites, so the whites didn't like me much... (I was raised in California)...

 

I saw a white girl give a high five to a black girl and then wipe her hands on her jeans, with a grimace...

 

I grew up in Arkansas too (central) and have lived in several places. It's still pretty segregated today.

 

When I was in high school, a black family moved into our neighborhood. Soon after, a terrible racial slur was spray painted on the street in front of their house, as well as their cars. My dad and I cleaned up the street as they cleaned their cars. They were very stand-off-ish the whole time they lived there. It was awful. They had two elementary sons. This was a nice neighborhood - large houses with pools, etc.

[tex-mex]

The women who have personally had maids and witnessed "family" like treatment of their help - of course that was your family's wonderful experience so its hard to believe the horror stories. The poster who is quoted above and I have personal stories from the other side of things that our grandmothers and great aunts experienced (I will spare you the details). The emotions still run deep on both sides of the fence (which is amazing to me) but that is just the reality of our American story.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

My mother's people are native to Texas. Many stories of what they have experienced were not so delightful.

 

 

 

I was horrified at the cake incident. I simply cannot envision something like that happening among the people I knew. The maids (and most of the employing families) I knew were all Christians, and they treated each other with kindness.

One such story from my grandmother who worked as a cook in the 1940's -- and her employer (family) were not that great to work for as they were mean spirited. One day, my granny was making a pie. She set the pie down in a pie safe (wooden/tin furniture) out on the summer porch (where one cooked when it was hot in the south).

 

Hours later, she was horrified to see the pie nibbled on by a mouse. Her employer was calling out for dessert (not too nicely, I must add) by that time. Granny I guess just lost her temper at that moment -- it was like the straw that broke the camel's back. She looked around the pie safe and floor for mouse droppings. Added some to the pie slice (it was the portion the mouse nibbled on) and covered her wicked deed with lots of whipped cream. And she served it with a smile. :lol: Granny said it was the best revenge she had in her life.

 

And yes, I do believe folks do that to rude or nasty folk. Haven't you heard of waitresses or cooks spitting in food that is sent back? I recall one person spitting in a customer's plate -- Aaaaaauuuggh. :001_huh:

[Catwoman]

You know what is interesting to me - I live in a very diverse group area with homeschoolers from all races and walks of life but white homeschoolers are still the majority. I can feel the wall go up when I enter a homeschool function where people don't quite know me yet so I do the song and dance to make everyone feel comfortable that hey I'm here for the same reason you are here for and its OKAY.... it's funny but it is what it is.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

 

Are you sure there's really a "wall going up" and that you're not projecting your assumptions on the people you meet at the homeschool functions? I'm not saying that's the case, but if you assume that the people will be uncomfortable with you (for whatever reason,) and do a "song and dance to make everyone feel comfortable," maybe you're doing more than is necessary to be accepted.

 

Also, some groups aren't that excited about new members, no matter what race they may be, and some will have issues with new people because they seem too rich, too poor, too loud, too shy, or any number of other silly reasons. It honestly may not be a racial thing.

 

Many people feel a little awkward when they join a new group or attend a function where they don't know anyone, and they worry that they'll say something stupid, or that they look fat, or that they look too old or too young, or whatever -- when none of those concerns may be at all valid in terms of what they people they meet may think of them.

 

I'm sorry if you've had issues as a result of your race. In our area, I don't think it would make a difference. I'm not saying that everyone would rush over to welcome you, but they probably wouldn't rush over to meet me any more quickly, either.

[GWOB]

I grew up in south Louisiana in the 80s. My family was "poor white trash". I thought The Help was spot-on.

 

There are still quite definite class distinctions in the South. Those in the upper classes will never admit to their mistreatment of lower classes, both white and black lower classes. The whites in the lower classes mistreat blacks. Someone has to be lower than them, right?

 

Racism is alive and real everywhere. Now our collective hatred is shifting to Hispanic population. One racial group will always hate another racial group. It stinks, but it's reality.

[Heather in Neverland]

 

Racism is alive and real everywhere. Now our collective hatred is shifting to Hispanic population. One racial group will always hate another racial group. It stinks, but it's reality.

 

 

:iagree:

 

"Begrudging someone else's existence just happens to be the most convenient way of validating your own." ~Dennis Miller

 

 

 

 

 

.

[bettyandbob]

I read an interview with one of the actresses who played one of the maids in the movie. one thing that struck me was it took her a while to consider the role, she concerned about how her family would feel bout even acting as a maid. It was bad to even pretend to go back to that environment. Clearly the cultural effect of being a servant and having no/very limited opportunities to do anything else and know that your dc will likely have no options has an effect on a race put in that position.

 

I know that it was common for most white families o have help in the south. Why was it common? Because it was cheap and the people who worked as domestics had no opportunity to do anything else. Even if jobs were available education wasn't. How do you think being in that position affect the outlook of either race on the other?

[kahlanne]

I believe it goes both ways same as there are great employers and bad employers. The difference is opportunity to leave one job for another, better one. I don't believe domestics could do that easily and had to take what they got. Honestly, I see that happen today as well. It isn't necessarily a race issue. Many people keep or take a job with an employer that is a jerk and end up being very mistreated because they need the job and can't find anything else.

 

As for my knowledge on the subject. I was born in the seventies in MS to what would easily be considered poor, lowest class white family. My mom was born in 54 but didn't have indoor plumbing until 74 when she married. Her family home and younger sisters didn't get it until a few years later. However I realize this isn't typical as my Dh's dad got it years earlier and he is twenty yrs older than my mom. To speak of my own "class", I was actually raised in a converted milk barn once our home burned when I was about 8. I lived there until the user before I married on the nineties. My grandfather worked hard and was able to purchase 200 acres of farmland which he split between his kids, which I worked. In the summer I had a job starting at age 8 with a middle class couple. I did whatever they and their maid, LaMott, needed doing, mostly yardwork. LaMott was well respected by all. Mr Simpson would pick her up and take her home every day. He did the same for me. She worked hard and wasn't considered family but a valued employee and friend. Fact was, she wasnt family. However many times I saw them go out of their way to help her when she needed something like driving her kid to doctor. LaMott and I worked side by side many times but I knew my place was much lower on the chopping block than her. Mr Simpson wasone of the greatest men I knew but Mrs. Scared me some. I knew I was beneath hee class and even below LaMott in her mind. I had to "watch my step" around her. I have no doubt that LaMott felt the same. However, neither of us were ever mistreated. We both appreciated our job and loved the Simpsons, especially Mr. Even though Mrs Simpson gave off the feel of "upper class", I know she would help me if I needed and especially LaMott. I worked with them for about 6-7 years. LaMott was there until her retirement. I saw them weekly until their death years later. I would say I was very fortunate to know all three. The their was a class delineation, I don't really see a problem with it. Fact was, the Simpson's were good people that were more educated and richer than either of us. I was able to continue my education and improve my life while LaMott was older with kids and less opportunity or time. Never should she hang her head for being a maid though. She was a hard worker with a job that she diid well.

[kahlanne]

Sorry if I rambled. Call it sleep deprivation. I have been up 3 nights with a sick 8 mo old. My 2 yr old was sick off and on since Christmas and just when I thought things were better, he shared his cold with lil sister. He still has it but mild. Then yesterday my 10 yr old broke her tibia, large shin bone, in judo. There was 20 seconds left after full day of class. They were only doing rondori which is lite drills similar to walk-thrus. I saw it and can't figure out how it broke. Nothing out of ordinary, hard, or even difficult was done but it is a full break. Ended up just having it put in splint, after xray, until we can see our pediatrician today. The urgent care clinic said no ortho open until Mon and ER won't do anything with swelling. They could admit her but said she could go home to wait if we wanted. We hope our ped has some pull and can get her seen today. According to urgent care doc, she will need pins and a rod. They gave her loratab for pain but has been a long, stressful, worrisome night. She is scared and does't like that she is missing her big judo match later this month. Habent mentioned to her that she will be out of tournament soccer this season too. She lives and breathes soccer. Three of her Christmas gifts were soccer relayed. Uggh...I am so upset. With 6 kids you would think I would have seen it all but not one broken bone until now. We have only had one cut that required stitches. Have only need ed antibiotics three times total between all 6. Guess I should be counting my blessings but it is hard right now. Sorry

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

Sorry if I rambled. Call it sleep deprivation. I have been up 3 nights with a sick 8 mo old. My 2 yr old was sick off and on since Christmas and just when I thought things were better, he shared his cold with lil sister. He still has it but mild. Then yesterday my 10 yr old broke her tibia, large shin bone, in judo. There was 20 seconds left after full day of class. They were only doing rondori which is lite drills similar to walk-thrus. I saw it and can't figure out how it broke. Nothing out of ordinary, hard, or even difficult was done but it is a full break. Ended up just having it put in splint, after xray, until we can see our pediatrician today. The urgent care clinic said no ortho open until Mon and ER won't do anything with swelling. They could admit her but said she could go home to wait if we wanted. We hope our ped has some pull and can get her seen today. According to urgent care doc, she will need pins and a rod. They gave her loratab for pain but has been a long, stressful, worrisome night. She is scared and does't like that she is missing her big judo match later this month. Habent mentioned to her that she will be out of tournament soccer this season too. She lives and breathes soccer. Three of her Christmas gifts were soccer relayed. Uggh...I am so upset. With 6 kids you would think I would have seen it all but not one broken bone until now. We have only had one cut that required stitches. Have only need ed antibiotics three times total between all 6. Guess I should be counting my blessings but it is hard right now. Sorry

 

:grouphug: You poor mama! I hope your daughter's leg heals quickly and that everyone gets better soon!

[Mothersweets]

I found this book on Amazon, but I haven't read it yet; I requested it from my library, so I should have it in hand sometime next week. The author worked as a domestic starting at age 9.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Age-Mississippi-Anne-Moody/dp/0385337817/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325966599&sr=8-1

 

Thank you! I'm going to look for it at my library.

[emzhengjiu]

I haven't seen "The Help" yet, but hope to soon. Until last year, I worked as a professional doing contract work for a company from a home office. It was great. Unfortunately, the company went out of busy unexpectedly and I was tossed head first into a bad economy.

 

Today, I'm working multiple part-time jobs while searching for a full time one. One of my jobs is working as a home health aide. I have been shocked at how differently I'm treated now by some people. Recently, I accompanied a lovely elderly lady to get her hair styled. The owner of the salon treated me as if I were dirt. She wouldn't make eye contact or respond to any comments I made.

 

I've had a number of such experiences working as an aide over the past year. It has made me much more aware of how people in "lower positions" are treated my some. To be fair, most people treat me well but the others hurt. When friends ask me why I put up with this kind of treatment, I point to my two beautiful daughters! The only money coming into our household is what I can earn. Quitting isn't an option! I can't imagine how bad it may have been for "help" years ago when there were even fewer options for people.

 

Ann

[Jane in NC]

... I've always wondered about southerners who claim that the help was "family."

 

Did you celebrate holidays with them? Did you ever go to their homes? Because that's what MY family does during holidays.

 

One of my friends was telling me about how "the help" was family when she was growing up. To back this up, she said that it was her job to bring plates of food and Mason jars of iced tea outside to "the help". In her eyes, this was a generous gesture. To mine, I found it peculiar that people confined to the back porch were labeled "family". Why not say employees? If that were the case, then I would agree that providing meals was generous. It is the use of the term "family" that strikes me as disingenuous.

[Mothersweets]

kahlanne, hope your dd heals quickly!

 

I appreciate everyone's responses. And yes, I agree with several posters who have said that how you view the treatment of maids all depends on your viewpoint.

 

We never had a maid (I grew up in the 70's in a military family;my folks were from west Texas) and find it so interesting to hear of pp's experiences with having help.

 

My great aunts/uncles and even my grandparents for a while had a maid that would come in once or twice a week but as they lived in El Paso, Texas, the help was Mexican, not black. I remember hearing my dad saying that at that time (40's-60's) it was better to be black in El Paso than Mexican. "Better" meaning "easier"; a person would experience less racism.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Mothersweets

[ThisIsTheDay]

Were maids really that common in that time period, even in middle class families? I don't know anyone who had a maid. Even in my parent's generation, maids were not common and my mom talks about how her mother worked night and day to keep up with the house standards of the day while raising five children.

 

I'm sure it's more of a geographical thing. It seems like a completely different lifestyle to me also, but I grew up in California. We knew a couple of people (and I'm talking in total, throughout my childhood) who a cleaning woman, but even then, they would only come in a few times a month.

 

It's hard for me to imagine too!

[kahlanne]

One of my friends was telling me about how "the help" was family when she was growing up. To back this up, she said that it was her job to bring plates of food and Mason jars of iced tea outside to "the help". In her eyes, this was a generous gesture. To mine, I found it peculiar that people confined to the back porch were labeled "family". Why not say employees? If that were the case, then I would agree that providing meals was generous. It is the use of the term "family" that strikes me as disingenuous.

 

I understand your point and agree in part. While they may not be "family" in the true sense of the word, they are closer than regular employees. To call them employees only is actually a drop in status.

[Remudamom]

Sure, but the Hilly character does make generalizations about race. She wants a separate bathroom because "they carry different diseases." She wants the "health initiative" because she believes the black help will give her a disease. I agree the Hilly character is also a world class @ss, but she is a racist and that is the conflict that is the point of the story.

 

I never said Hilly wasn't both. I was referring to someone else.

[Jennifer3141]

:001_huh:

 

My grandparents aren't from the south - they grew up in Missouri and lived all over the place, so your generalizations don't apply here. Would you have made the same insinuations had I posted that they met him when they lived on Long Island?

 

I keep typing things out and erasing them - that is a sign to me that I need to stop posting. I don't get emotional over threads anymore.;) Maybe I am just ultra-sensitive because Arbie died right before Thanksgiving, but either way, I will bow out here.

 

 

Renee, I'm not trying to attack you. I'm trying to understand this POV. I truly do not understand how anyone could think of this kind of relationship as "family." It strikes me as so bizarre.

 

We had cleaning people all my life growing up. Heck, I'm looking for one now. But I don't and never will be able to pretend they are family. I don't want to go to their Christmas Eve party and I won't be inviting them to mine.

 

We've had the same babysitter since my kids were 1 and 2. And we love her and invite her to birthday parties, etc. I bonus her out for Xmas and all but she's not family either. She's simply, "L - the world's best babysitter." :001_smile:

Edited January 8, 2012 by Jennifer3141

[Heather in Neverland]

We had cleaning people all my life growing up. Heck, I'm looking for one now. But I don't and never will be able to pretend they are family. I don't want to go to their Christmas Eve party and I won't be inviting them to mine.

 

 

That's too bad. Our lives are so much richer having Prema and her family in our lives and as part of our family. I never thought we would have experienced this and it didn't start that way but I am so glad it is this way. And I am happy that my kids are growing up with Prema as family and not as our "maid". It has been such a life-enriching experience.

[ma23peas]

Renee, I'm not trying to attack you. I'm trying to understand this POV. I truly do not understand how anyone could think of this kind of relationship as "family." It strikes me as so bizarre.

 

We had cleaning people all my life growing up. Heck, I'm looking for one now. But I don't and never will be able to pretend they are family. I don't want to go to their Christmas Eve party and I won't be inviting them to mine.

 

We've had the same babysitter since my kids were 1 and 2. And we love her and invite her to birthday parties, etc. I bonus her out for Xmas and all but she's not family either. she's simply, "L - the world's best babysitter." :001_smile:

 

 

Easy, faith and lots of it...My family has been in the deep south since they came off the boats from the 1600s through the 1800s...one side of my family were sharecroppers picking cotton for a living...the other side had more schooling and some had 'help'...I remember Miss Annie when I was young, the way my mom would speak about her was with deep affection and endearment...she loved us and cared for my mom when she had children or surgery like a sister. We are all sisters in Christ...I remember how she would tell us about God and thank Him often...that was our deep bond...many have a different view of the South and perceive it as something it always was not....too many generalizations...for those of us who lived it...a much different picture...just bc I did not see abuse does not mean it did not happen, just bc one did not share in the experience we had does not mean it did not happen....both sides should be told...

 

Just like in To Kill a Mockingbird, Atticus treated his help with respect and she loved and was loved by his family...others were not so loving, but it does not refute the existence of both...I think those of us who only see the South portrayed by one stereotype wish the other side would be as well understood..

Places in the Heart and Driving Miss Daisy come close..

[yellowperch]

I haven't read the thread beyond the first page, and then a bit to see the interesting tangent it went off on.

 

I do have a book suggestion:

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Labor-Love-Sorrow-Slavery-Present/dp/0465018815/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326037182&sr=8-1

 

I took a college class with the author. I read excerpts from the book 100 years ago when I was a student and she was finishing it. I don't know what I'd think of it now, but I bet it is interesting.....

[Mona100]

I think to some extent is was a Southern thing. My mother was raised at the same time in San Francisco but her family did not have a maid even though they prolly could have afforded it. If they lived in the South, they would have had a maid. A lot of the people who I work with who lived during that time had maids. Also, a friend (who is Black) that I work with now, when she was younger she was a maid/nanny to two boys. The grown boys have families now and beg for my friend to come and help raise their children.

 

I used to work at a hospital that is very close to the richest part of town. We don't have really good bus transportation here and I never would have thought the rich part of town would need bus service but there is several bus stops on the edge of town and the only people you would see is Black women. I am for sure that they are maids who work in that part of town.

 

 

I didn't see the movie and I'm not from the South, so please excuse my ignorance. Were maids really that common in that time period, even in middle class families? I don't know anyone who had a maid. Even in my parent's generation, maids were not common and my mom talks about how her mother worked night and day to keep up with the house standards of the day while raising five children.

[zenjenn]

I really think part of what makes the book so good, is that it really showed the multiple facets of these relationships. Nothing was universal. These relationships were complicated. There were good people, selfish people, racist people, and basically good people who struggled to do the right thing in the face of social pressure and a transitioning, volatile social strata and attitudes of the time.

 

My grandmother had live-in hired help. She lived in Pennsylvania and and hired a Jamaican woman who was with her for years.

 

She was no longer employed by my grandparents by time I was born, but she was present at all family functions and I grew up calling her "aunt". I remember as a child I did not notice she was black. One particular trip, we were in Florida with my uncle and Carmelita was there. My young cousins and I were swimming with her and comparing tans and how long they had been out in the sun, and Caremlita got this mischievous grin and asked, "How long do you think *I've* been in the sun?" It was the first time I had taken note of how much darker she was, and my eyes widened as I thought to myself 'She must play in the sun all year long!' :lol:

[In2why]

I understand your point and agree in part. While they may not be "family" in the true sense of the word, they are closer than regular employees. To call them employees only is actually a drop in status.

 

 

I get your point completely but to expand on it. Isn't it a bit arrogant to think that the "help" would be honored to be part of the family? They are employees, they aren't doing the job because they love you, they are doing it so that they get a paycheck to take home to their family. Any employee should be treated with respect and dignity. I think the "like family" label is patronizing, and infantalizing. As if they need you in an emotional way, rather than a financial contract.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I've read through a lot, but not all of the posts on this thread, and I've posted on this topic a little before, but when I read The Help, I immediately thought of my MIL, who has lived in the north her entire life. So, it's not a regional thing. She always had "Help", i.e. black women as a housekeeper and nanny. I asked her once if dh and his brother had trouble learning to tie their shoes. Her answer was, "Oh, I don't know. The "Help" taught them how to do those things, like brush their teeth and button their shirts." She's constantly telling me I need to hire some "Help". She has never referred to any of them by name, just as "The Help". On the first major family holiday gathering that we had at our home as a married couple, someone rang the doorbell as I was getting everything prepared. A middle aged black woman was standing at my door. I knew MIL had invited some people I didn't know, but I was totally confused, as we were celebrating Passover, and I didn't know of any black Jews in our town :001_huh: :lol:. I invited her in and told her to have a seat and asked her if she would like something to drink. She told me she was there to wash the dishes. :confused::eek::svengo::angry:

I was livid! MIL had hired "The Help" to wash my dishes without even consulting me. I felt terrible. This woman remained in the kitchen the whole time we were eating. I almost got up and left my own house. I should have, but I was a newlywed and really just didn't know what to do. Afterward, I told dh that this was never to happen again, and he'd better explain it to his mother, or I would explain it in not so nice language. I was in a long term relationship with a black man several years before I met dh, and had to deal with so many racial issues and prejudices and other things that I never wanted to ever have to deal with in my life. But, I have to say, I never expected to have to deal with this one. I don't understand why people throughout the world and throughout history can't treat each other decently. Really.

[Heather in Neverland]

I get your point completely but to expand on it. Isn't it a bit arrogant to think that the "help" would be honored to be part of the family? They are employees, they aren't doing the job because they love you, they are doing it so that they get a paycheck to take home to their family. Any employee should be treated with respect and dignity. I think the "like family" label is patronizing, and infantalizing. As if they need you in an emotional way, rather than a financial contract.

 

Wow. How sad. It's quite the opposite. I am the one who is lucky to be part of HER family. I feel honored to be invited to HER family gatherings and to HER church. It is possible you know for an employer and an employee to become very, very close and for it to be a mutually beneficial friendship. One of my best friends is a teacher and I am her principal, her boss. And yet the friendship is real.

 

I am closer to Prema than I am the majority of people in my family.

 

It is so sad that people seemed determined to keep such a wall up that they can't conceive of a world where two woman could become like sisters even though they have other roles that are different. I guess I am even luckier than I thought!

 

 

 

 

.

[Jennifer3141]

That's too bad. Our lives are so much richer having Prema and her family in our lives and as part of our family. I never thought we would have experienced this and it didn't start that way but I am so glad it is this way. And I am happy that my kids are growing up with Prema as family and not as our "maid". It has been such a life-enriching experience.

 

 

I'm happy my kids have our babysitter too. The fact that they love her is icing on the cake. But she's still not family. She's not here Xmas morning. I don't worry about her driving during a blizzard. I don't have a say in who she dates or moves in with. I do consider her a friend - I've known her since she was a hard partying kid.

 

But she's got her family and her holidays with them. And I have mine. I don't delude myself into thinking she's family. I don't pay my family to watch my kids. :001_smile:

 

Same with the cleaning lady. I don't have her over Xmas Eve because she's got her own family and I've got mine. (That and we hate beer. They are beer people. We're wine people. It's hard to coordinate gatherings up here with the alcohol wars up here. :D )

[Word Nerd]

I paid my sister her regular rate to care for my kids at her in-home day care before they were school age. I can't imagine not paying her for her time, and she most certainly is family. Granted, it's not the same thing we're talking about here, but I think it's relevant to the discussion. It's presumptuous to say that if you pay someone for a service of some kind, it's delusional or insulting to consider them "like family." Just because it isn't true for you doesn't mean others' experiences and feelings are not genuine or legitimate.

Edited January 8, 2012 by WordGirl

[Hoggirl]

I grew up in Arkansas too (central) and have lived in several places. It's still pretty segregated today.

 

When I was in high school, a black family moved into our neighborhood. Soon after, a terrible racial slur was spray painted on the street in front of their house, as well as their cars. My dad and I cleaned up the street as they cleaned their cars. They were very stand-off-ish the whole time they lived there. It was awful. They had two elementary sons. This was a nice neighborhood - large houses with pools, etc.

 

Two or three posts make reference to Arkansas. I have a couple of doozeys (no idea how to spell that) to share.

 

I moved to northeast Arkansas from Florida my senior year in high school. My senior yearbook from 1982 has the "N word" printed in it. I kid you not. I dragged it out during our book club discussion about The Help. Not too many southerners in our book group and they really felt like a lot of the story was fabricated/exaggerated, etc. To say they were shocked would be a gross understatement. Outraged would be a lot closer to accurate though still not forceful enough.

 

Later in life I lived in southern Arkansas. In the spring of 1993 a town about 30 miles away from the town we lived in was having its first integrated prom. In all prior years the parents had put on proms so there had always been a "white prom" and a "black prom" prior to that.

 

It was well into the 1990s - maybe later before the Little Rock school desegregation case was no longer monitored by the court system.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Hoggirl

[eternalknot]

I haven't read the book, nor have I seen the movie. I don't even really know what it's about other than what I've seen from posts on this thread. That alone should stop me from posting now, but ... well, I have another ten minutes to kill, and none of the other threads interest me LOL.

 

What I do know, though, are dynamics: what people likely feel, why they feel that way, and how they inevitably act on those feelings. It was interesting to read through this thread about how differently each family's dynamics understood their respective situations to be. It was heart-breaking to read of "the help" as an unappreciated, taken-for-granted servant class in some families; it was uplifting to read of employers who long visited with or contributed to the financial lives of their help, even long after the professional relationship had expired.

 

In the case of the latter, I firmly believe that these people view/ed the help as family. Particularly the kids, if the help played a large role in raising them. Even the wives, if the help played an important 'personal assistant' type role by today's standards (someone the wife could count upon as a confidante, privy to personal family information and trustworthy to not gossip about it or even acknowledge certain family faults). I have no doubt in my mind that these individuals feel that the help is their family.

 

But as much as the help loves these people, s/he will never become completely vulnerable to them; though her employers may blur the line between Help and Family, she's usually aware that she shouldn't do the same. The help always remains more vigilant -and sometimes comfortable- keeping the line between being an employee and being family crystal clear. She never forgets that it's a precarious relationship guaranteed only by terminable contract. And that expectation and warning come from her own BTDT people, not from her employers - necessarily.

 

She may love the kids like her own, she may respect the family she works for, but she's warned and smart to maintain some emotional distance, and not to fall too comfortable with the family. She may request or receive help with personal problems or issues, but that's still a benevolent courtesy of her employer (maybe even one who considers her family) and not for her to consider the unconditional act of a friend or relative. At the end of the day, she's an employee. The same could be said true of hiring a blood relative for any given job; it changes the dynamics of the relationship, and there is always a boss. The boss may love you, but you are no longer just family - employment always changes things, even between family.

 

I've seen this played out in other cultures, and can only imagine it to be as or more true given the sociohistory between Black and White Americans, particularly in the South, during the era in question.

[Scarlett]

Two or three posts make reference to Arkansas. I have a couple of doozeys (no idea how to spell that) to share.

 

I moved to northeast Arkansas from Florida my senior year in high school. My senior yearbook from 1982 has the "N word" printed in it. I kid you not. I dragged it out during our book club discussion about The Help. Not too many southerners in our book group and they really felt like a lot of the story was fabricated/exaggerated, etc. To say they were shocked would be a gross understatement. Outraged would be a lot closer to accurate though still not forceful enough.

 

Later in life I lived in southern Arkansas. In the spring of 1993 a town about 30 miles away from the town we lived in was having its first integrated prom. In all prior years the parents had put on proms so there had always been a "white prom" and a "black prom" prior to that.

 

It was well into the 1990s - maybe later before the Little Rock school desegregation case was no longer monitored by the court system.

 

I was raised in AR and still live here. The county I was raised in had NO blacks at all. And people in general were quite proud of that. I have been gone from that county for almost 30 years...my niece and nephew have been raised up in that school system and I hear there are now a few blacks in town. Racism in that town was alive and well when I was growing up and not much better now.

[Julie Smith]

I haven't read the book, nor have I seen the movie. I don't even really know what it's about other than what I've seen from posts on this thread. That alone should stop me from posting now, but ... well, I have another ten minutes to kill, and none of the other threads interest me LOL.

 

What I do know, though, are dynamics: what people likely feel, why they feel that way, and how they inevitably act on those feelings. It was interesting to read through this thread about how differently each family's dynamics understood their respective situations to be. It was heart-breaking to read of "the help" as an unappreciated, taken-for-granted servant class in some families; it was uplifting to read of employers who long visited with or contributed to the financial lives of their help, even long after the professional relationship had expired.

 

In the case of the latter, I firmly believe that these people view/ed the help as family. Particularly the kids, if the help played a large role in raising them. Even the wives, if the help played an important 'personal assistant' type role by today's standards (someone the wife could count upon as a confidante, privy to personal family information and trustworthy to not gossip about it or even acknowledge certain family faults). I have no doubt in my mind that these individuals feel that the help is their family.

 

But as much as the help loves these people, s/he will never become completely vulnerable to them; though her employers may blur the line between Help and Family, she's usually aware that she shouldn't do the same. The help always remains more vigilant -and sometimes comfortable- keeping the line between being an employee and being family crystal clear. She never forgets that it's a precarious relationship guaranteed only by terminable contract. And that expectation and warning come from her own BTDT people, not from her employers - necessarily.

 

She may love the kids like her own, she may respect the family she works for, but she's warned and smart to maintain some emotional distance, and not to fall too comfortable with the family. She may request or receive help with personal problems or issues, but that's still a benevolent courtesy of her employer (maybe even one who considers her family) and not for her to consider the unconditional act of a friend or relative. At the end of the day, she's an employee. The same could be said true of hiring a blood relative for any given job; it changes the dynamics of the relationship, and there is always a boss. The boss may love you, but you are no longer just family - employment always changes things, even between family.

 

I've seen this played out in other cultures, and can only imagine it to be as or more true given the sociohistory between Black and White Americans, particularly in the South, during the era in question.

 

What a wonderful post. :)

[Beetkvass]

I'm happy my kids have our babysitter too. The fact that they love her is icing on the cake. But she's still not family. She's not here Xmas morning. I don't worry about her driving during a blizzard. I don't have a say in who she dates or moves in with. I do consider her a friend - I've known her since she was a hard partying kid.

 

But she's got her family and her holidays with them. And I have mine. I don't delude myself into thinking she's family. I don't pay my family to watch my kids. :001_smile:

 

Same with the cleaning lady. I don't have her over Xmas Eve because she's got her own family and I've got mine. (That and we hate beer. They are beer people. We're wine people. It's hard to coordinate gatherings up here with the alcohol wars up here. :D )

 

My cousin was in an accident and ended up severely brain damaged and needing full time care. His family basically fell in love with one of the sweet nurses that was being paid to take care of him. She and her husband became good friends with all of our family. They ended up spending almost every single holiday with us for over a decade even if G wasn't being paid to work and take care of my cousin at the time. My parents also frequently got together with them and , yes, went to each other's homes for dinner. My mom and G talked on the phone all the time. It was devastating to everyone when G died.

[TravelingChris]

I'd like to point out that racism isn't just whites acting racist against blacks and others. I myself was a victim of racism a few times- and yes, I was the minority white in the situation. In one, I was on a bus and the only white on the bus. I rang the bell for the bus to stop but the black bus driver refused. I was a young teenager going to my dentist appointment at a university which had a dental school. A kind elderly woman rang the bell for me after it became apparent that the bus driver wouldn't stop for me. I was two stops away from my stop when the bus stopped. The lady didn't get off, she just saw that I wasn't being allowed off and did the right thing. The second time was when I was living in Chicago and I saw a postal official picking up the mail from a mail box. I was carrying a letter I wanted to mail and I asked him if I could give it to him to take. He went off on me accusing me of racism and classism and just yelling and yelling at me. I hadn't done anything weird and he could have told me politely, sorry, I can't- you need to go to the post office or another mailbox or something.

 

I have also witnessed black on black racism. I was in a movie theater watching a James Bond movie. In the movie, James Bond kisses Grace Jones. Even before the kiss, the black women in the audience were calling out comments about her being too black, etc. I also heard such comments when I worked at an office with almost an entirely black staff. Not about Grace Jones but about so and so being too black because she was wearing her hair naturally.