sahm99 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I need to make a difficult decision. My mind is clouded by all kind of emotions, so please help me get a perspective on this situation. I had a very, very good friend for three years. Best friend. Soulmates. We became close almost instantly, our husbands really liked each other. Their two sons the same age as our daughters... Everything just perfect! I will try to make a very long story short...: My friend started a relationship with another man, himself the father of three very young children at the time. She managed to coax the man into transferring her enormous amounts of money. (about 2 million dollars) He made those transactions because she kept him in the believe that she was going to leave her husband, once their personal debts (house, etc.) were all payed off... Well, she never had the intention of leaving her husband, and, worse than that, hubby was involved in the scheme (investing the money abroad, etc). When dh and I found out about this whole thing, we were shocked, hurt, we just couldn't believe! We thought we had known those people! ...actually, I think we have not recovered, and maybe never will, from the blow our confidence in other people has taken. At the time (which was two years ago), we broke up contact immediately. There was never a discussion or an explanation, we just never called them again, on so did they (we previously had almost daily contact). Yesterday I received a very long e-mail from the "ex-lover" (who managed to revive his shattered marriage and seems fine today), asking me to please be a witness in court agains my "ex-friend". He seems to be certain that my account of anything my friend shared with me in the last months of our friendship will help him proove that she never had the intention of leaving her husband... And he is right! I don't know what to do. This whole story is so horrribly filthy I don't want anything to do with it! Also, yes, I still feel some weird sort of loyalty towards my "friend". She was a very dear friend to me and dh. On the other hand I feel like lying down is just not an option in this situation... Those people are mean. They did something terrible. They exploited confidence and love... I just don't know what to do... I want out...:confused: Please share your thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevilla Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I would ask if you can do a deposition insteadof testifying in open court - then you dont haveto see her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoughCollie Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 The court can order you to testify, whether or not you want to. Just tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 What they did was criminal fraud and theft. I would have no problem being a witness (though I would still feel sick and sad about it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jplain Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) You can want out, but it may not be your decision to make. You can tell him that you'd prefer not to appear in court. If you're fortunate, that'll be the end of it, or they'll settle for a deposition. However, if his lawyer feels your testimony in court is necessary, you'll get a summons, and you'll have to appear in court. If that happens, go to court, answer the questions to the best of your ability, and do not feel guilty about it. Try to consider it your civic duty, much like voting or serving on a jury. Edited November 27, 2011 by jplain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 The court can order you to testify, whether or not you want to. Just tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. :grouphug: :grouphug: :iagree: Remember she lied to you too. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iucounu Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 It sounds like you're going to have to testify if you want to help set things right. Try to think of it as helping to punish the wicked and protect the (relatively) innocent, not as hurting a friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahm99 Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 ...I am actually wondering whether they could oblige me to testify?!? The e-mail very much made it sound like I had a choice... I would never ever lie in front of a court. So, in case I go, I won't wonder a second about what I'll say - I'll just say the truth. The problem I am having is, whether I should make myself available to the betrayed ex-lover...with knowledge I gained through a friendship... (again, in case I really have a choice) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 It sounds like you're going to have to testify if you want to help set things right. Try to think of it as helping to punish the wicked and protect the (relatively) innocent, not as hurting a friend. :iagree: Try to view your testimony is part of a legal and honest process instead of a betrayal. You owe no one anything more than the truth, and the victim is owed nothing less. What a ghastly experience. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higginszoo Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 ...I am actually wondering whether they could oblige me to testify?!? The e-mail very much made it sound like I had a choice... I would never ever lie in front of a court. So, in case I go, I won't wonder a second about what I'll say - I'll just say the truth. The problem I am having is, whether I should make myself available to the betrayed ex-lover...with knowledge I gained through a friendship... (again, in case I really have a choice) Asking is usually a first step to be nice. His lawyers can issue you a summons, which would force you to appear or face contempt of court. I agree with the ones who say to talk to his lawyers and see if a deposition might suffice to keep you from having to testify in open court. It should be just his lawyers and the ex-friends' lawyers, none of the principal parties to the case, which would remove that aspect of the tension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLG Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Do testify even if as a deposition. The truth must be told since you were asked. Sorry for this painful time. I can well imagine how you feel betrayed and cautious about trusting.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 What they did was criminal fraud and theft. I would have no problem being a witness (though I would still feel sick and sad about it). :grouphug: You really can't avoid it if you are court ordered and likely, if you refuse, given the amount of money you are talking about, his lawyer will have a summons issued. Just tell them the truth. It's a criminal case and likely there will be a civil suit afterward in order to recoup any money they might still have. So, be prepared because it is possible that you will have to testify twice if he has pressed criminal charges and sued them in civil court. These cases would be tried separately. Even though it feels awful, it is the right thing to do because he deserves to get justice for the crime if he can. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 ...I am actually wondering whether they could oblige me to testify?!? The e-mail very much made it sound like I had a choice... I would never ever lie in front of a court. So, in case I go, I won't wonder a second about what I'll say - I'll just say the truth. The problem I am having is, whether I should make myself available to the betrayed ex-lover...with knowledge I gained through a friendship... (again, in case I really have a choice) A friendship isn't a privileged relationship where there's any expectation that what's said will not be repeated in court as with a doctor. In fact, she imposed on the friendship, putting you in the position of having information (that she never intended to leave her husband) that put you in moral peril with regards to the man she was using/stealing from. I'd say that ethically, you're free and clear and anything you can do to help this man might be a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Walk in his shoes, if this had happened to you, what would you hope others would do. Helping him is the right thing, that is why you feel ill. You know what you should do, it is uncomfortable, and not pleasant, but you need to do it. Also, look for the positive, the lesson that you will be teaching your children. Even when it is unpleasant, you help people and be honest. Be strong and show your kids how a strong person handles unpleasant situations that they don't want to be in. Nicole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Yes, you do have testify whether in a deposition or in court. You can ask to write a letter but it may well end up in court anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 What they did was criminal fraud and theft. I would have no problem being a witness (though I would still feel sick and sad about it). :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I would think if you don't testify it would be a little like helping her get away with it. What she did was not your fault, but it was horrific and needs to corrected as much as possible. I'm so sorry for you, it sounds just awful:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 A friendship isn't a privileged relationship where there's any expectation that what's said will not be repeated in court as with a doctor. In fact, she imposed on the friendship, putting you in the position of having information (that she never intended to leave her husband) that put you in moral peril with regards to the man she was using/stealing from. I'd say that ethically, you're free and clear and anything you can do to help this man might be a good thing. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVA Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I had to do this once.....my former friend had cheated on her husband and HIS lawyer first asked me to testify and then had me subpoened. No fun, but I did it. I just didn't look at her during my testimony. Actually, it was hard to recognize her as her lawyer had her dress in 'grandma' clothes and look conservative- hairstyle and ALL. The husband was able to get out of paying her the huge alimony she had demanded and proved that she was on the 'skankky' side which prevented the children from being with her un-supervised. It was a nerve-wracking situation but, my dh and I felt it was the least we could do to help the husband and protect the children. She had snookered us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 If ordered by the court to testify, then yes - the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. In that case, it is a duty that must be done. But I would still not volunteer to do so, and accepting an informal request to do so would be akin to volunteering in my mind. I would testify only after an official summons - and that is what I would communicate to the ex-lover, leaving it up to him to decide about my involvement in the process, rather than making a positive decision about it myself. My decision would be to stay out of other people's legal disputes as long as possible. Flame away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annandatje Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 They perpetrated fraud. You have a legal and moral obligation to truthfully recount your knowledge of events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 :iagree: Try to view your testimony is part of a legal and honest process instead of a betrayal. You owe no one anything more than the truth, and the victim is owed nothing less. What a ghastly experience. :grouphug: Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 They perpetrated fraud. You have a legal and moral obligation to truthfully recount your knowledge of events. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 She betrayed your friendship in a most vile way. It makes me wonder if she used you to portray a seemingly normal family image. I too feel you have a moral and legal obligation to testify against her. I had to testify against someone. It wasn't fun at all, but it needed to be done. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 There would be no hesitation for me. Tell the truth and help bring justice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 They perpetrated fraud. You have a legal and moral obligation to truthfully recount your knowledge of events. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 While you feel that you and your friend were soulmates, and still seem to care for her, I ask you to consider that you were being grossly manipulated by her. She used you the way she used this other man, and you owe her NOTHING. In the past I was someone's pawn, and it took years to really realize that all the bonding, connections, and understanding - none of it was based in truth. It was orchestrated to make me behave in the way the person wanted. That realization freed me from any attachments and allowed me to move on completely. As hurt and betrayed as you are, this man feels a million times worse. It would be very kind of you to help him in his healing. It may also help you as well, to take control over the situation so you are not left feeling a victim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I would tell the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueinNC Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I agree what your ex friend did was wrong-having an affair and accepting monetary gifts. He gave her the money. It's not like she stole it. What she did with the money is irrelevant. But, it also takes two to tangle. The ex-lover was also cheating/robbing his wife and kids out of their money by gifting it to his lover. Now, it sounds like he is just angry because he gave that money with strings attached and isn't getting his way. So your friend and her husband had the last laugh or so they thought. The ex-lover is also guilty of the same crime whether or not he made nicey-nice with his wife again. Had your friend followed through and left her husband for this creep (yes, creep since he cheated on his wife with three young kids), then there would be no lawsuit (unless the ex-lover's wife decided to sue). You reap what you sow. They made their bed-let them lie in it. I certainly would not get involved and just let them duke it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Get a lawyer. Truth is it is a nasty mess from the start. This guy is no saint either. Remember he was cheating on his wife and kids too. You have no reason to assume he is some sweet guy wronged by love. And $2million is no small mess to get roped into. Get a lawyer. I have nothing against the truth. Fine. Say they seemed like a nice couple and you had no idea they were doing all this other stuff and once you did, you ditched them like hot potatoes. But be sure you don't get roped in as guilty by association. And I would not respond to ANYTHING from him until you speak to a lawyer. Did I mention you should consult a lawyer as to the details and risks of your connection to this mess? Get a lawyer. Rememeber where the road to good intentions leads far too often.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misidawnrn Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 The court can order you to testify, whether or not you want to. Just tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. :iagree: You have to do what's right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I agree what your ex friend did was wrong-having an affair and accepting monetary gifts. He gave her the money. It's not like she stole it. What she did with the money is irrelevant. But, it also takes two to tangle. The ex-lover was also cheating/robbing his wife and kids out of their money by gifting it to his lover. Now, it sounds like he is just angry because he gave that money with strings attached and isn't getting his way. So your friend and her husband had the last laugh or so they thought. The ex-lover is also guilty of the same crime whether or not he made nicey-nice with his wife again. Had your friend followed through and left her husband for this creep (yes, creep since he cheated on his wife with three young kids), then there would be no lawsuit (unless the ex-lover's wife decided to sue). You reap what you sow. They made their bed-let them lie in it. I certainly would not get involved and just let them duke it out. That's my inclination as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueinNC Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 That's my inclination as well. And yours mine! We posted at the same time. I am not sure why anyone thinks the ex-lover is innocent in all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unicorn. Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Walk in his shoes, if this had happened to you, what would you hope others would do. Helping him is the right thing, that is why you feel ill. You know what you should do, it is uncomfortable, and not pleasant, but you need to do it. Also, look for the positive, the lesson that you will be teaching your children. Even when it is unpleasant, you help people and be honest. Be strong and show your kids how a strong person handles unpleasant situations that they don't want to be in. Nicole :iagree: As painful as it is, you need to testify. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 The ex-lover is certainly not innocent. That doesn't change the fact that this woman and her husband committed a crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 And yours mine! We posted at the same time. I am not sure why anyone thinks the ex-lover is innocent in all of this. I don't think anyone sees it that way. Of course he's not innocent! Of course he is also guilty of horrible acts. However, I doubt the court is interested in the OP's (or our) opinion of the ex-lover. The court is after info that the OP might have regarding one aspect of this mess, and that has to do with what she knew during her former friendship with the woman. Telling the truth doesn't mean she is on ex-lover's side. I wouldn't be on the side of either of these disgusting people, to be honest, and I admit I don't understand the OP's lingering loyalty to this horrible woman. Telling the truth is about honesty and justice, not about siding with one or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 However, I doubt the court is interested in the OP's (or our) opinion of the ex-lover. The court is after info that the OP might have ... Telling the truth is about honesty and justice, not about siding with one or the other. Actually the court hasn't asked her for squat. He sent her a private email. He is not the court. I completely agree with being honest. Honestly, I wouldn't do anything for any of these people without a lawyer advising me. It's flat out foolish to do so, imnsho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker Martin Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Yes, without a doubt, you need to testify. You witnessed a crime. Your ex-friend and her husband are con artists. It sounds hokey, but I'd say it's your duty as a good citizen to testify. I wouldn't answer the man's email other than to ask for the prosecutor's contact information. Talk to the prosecutor and go from there. You don't need to spend time in conversation with this man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Did I miss this part: is it a civil matter? Yes? trying hard to imagine a criminal matter based only on the post...:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 No matter what you think of either individual's moral/ethical behavior, the case is about whether an actual fraud as it is legally defined exists. Testifying and telling the truth at a trial is not taking sides. It is just telling the truth. I would have no problem appearing for this reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Actually the court hasn't asked her for squat. He sent her a private email. He is not the court. I completely agree with being honest. Honestly, I wouldn't do anything for any of these people without a lawyer advising me. It's flat out foolish to do so, imnsho. Oh, Lordy. How did I miss that????? I just re-read the OP and sure enough, that's right. I'm a little tired and on some medication. That's my excuse. OK, my earlier thoughts in this thread reflect my assumption that the OP was actually subpoenaed (or expected to be). So, uh, disregard everything I've said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myeightkiddies Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 You do not discuss or converse with the man who contacted you. In the event that he is lying to you, you want to be sure that you are not dragged into the middle of drama. If you feel that you must respond to his email, state that you will cooperate with the court and will only do so after the court (or Prosecutor) has contacted you directly. You will not make any statement to any other party, including him. If the court (or prosecutor) contacts you, you state the facts of what you know. You need not give opinion or feelings or such. You simply respond to questions asked. Cooperating with the prosecution (court) will be less stressful on you. They can force you later (or pressure you) if you do not. This isn't you against your former friend. This is you simply stating fact in a truthful manner. If your former friend had done nothing wrong you would have no truths against their actions to tell. This isn't you doing something. This is you simply stating what you saw them do. They hold full responsibility for their actions and whatever consequences are their doing - not yours. It was a crime. They are criminals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Wow, Parker, I wouldn't answer that email OR contact the prosecutor. If I was contacted (and I mean by subpoena) I would feel a moral and legal obligation to testify truthfully, but I wouldn't ever step up and volunteer. The OP doesn't owe either of these people a thing. Honestly participating in our legal system is one thing. Volunteering oneself and one's family for this kind of drama at the behest of a snake is quite another. (TD changes horses mid-stream after re-reading the OP.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker Martin Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Wow, Parker, I wouldn't answer that email OR contact the prosecutor. If I was contacted (and I mean by subpoena) I would feel a moral and legal obligation to testify truthfully, but I wouldn't ever step up and volunteer. The OP doesn't owe either of these people a thing. Honestly participating in our legal system is one thing. Volunteering oneself and one's family for this kind of drama at the behest of a snake is quite another. (TD changes horses mid-stream after re-reading the OP.) I would contact the prosecutor to find out if this is really an open investigation. I wouldn't trust the snake. If I found out that it was an open case, I would be happy to volunteer to stop a con artist couple from operating. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I didn't. What happens when the next person they con is some little old lady with a hefty savings account? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueinNC Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 The ex-lover is certainly not innocent. That doesn't change the fact that this woman and her husband committed a crime. But, I am not sure that they actually committed a crime. They haven't been arrested. Yes, the wife cheated on her husband. And he cheated on his wife. The ex-lover willingly gave her money lavishly. So what if she coaxed him. He could have said no. Did he really believe she was $2 million in debt? If he was smart enough to have over $2 million dollars then he would have been smart enough to "ask for receipts/documentation of her debt" or pay it off himself. Maybe she did plan to leave her husband and then changed her mind. By then, the husband loved the additional income and got involved. There are many people involved in loveless relationships. I know a couple of women who stay with their husbands just because of the paycheck. Is that a crime especially since their husbands think their wives love them? Investing abroad is not a crime. And they probably did pay off their mortgage. They're just all greedy immoral people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Your "friend" and her husband are conmen. They are criminals. The lover made a serious mistake, sinned, wronged his wife. But, he didn't wrong others, and I doubt he set out to wound anyone. You have a moral obligation to testify truthfully against your ex-friends. If nothing else, you will be helping the wounded wife who was presumably entitled to half the monies that were stolen. Step up. Testify. Help put those creeps in jail where they belong. And, ((((hugs)))) to you. I am sure it must be devastating to be so betrayed by someone you thought you knew. This pair were/are sociopaths, and they can be incredibly believable and charismatic. That is how they con people. You were fooled, but you were not a fool. We are all susceptible to these experts. It's OK. Just move on, and help put those bastards in jail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyD Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) nm Edited November 27, 2011 by JennyD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia64 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 What they did was criminal fraud and theft. I would have no problem being a witness (though I would still feel sick and sad about it). I'm 100 percent on board with Jean. Evil takes all forms -- and what they did was reprehensible. Just tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but. . . and then move on w/ your clean life. Years ago I did something sort of similar with a friend's ex. She had scammed him -- not 2 million worth, but still. . . -- and I finally went to him and told him what the heck was happening. It saved him a money and future heartbreak. Alley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbgrace Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 ...I am actually wondering whether they could oblige me to testify?!? The e-mail very much made it sound like I had a choice... I would never ever lie in front of a court. So, in case I go, I won't wonder a second about what I'll say - I'll just say the truth. The problem I am having is, whether I should make myself available to the betrayed ex-lover...with knowledge I gained through a friendship... (again, in case I really have a choice) :grouphug: I'm sorry for the betrayal and damage. :grouphug: He may be wanting you to not be forced-hoping you will do it because it is the right thing to do. You can indeed be compelled legally. Whether he will exercise that right is another matter. I would do what I could for the cause of justice I believe or I, personally, would feel like I was contributing at some level to the wrong honestly. You testify to the truth you know and the court (civil or criminal? I'm assuming civil...) will decide the outcome. If this was a private email I would say you'd like to be contacted only by the lawyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silliness7 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I agree with Martha. Get a lawyer. Don't get involved in their drama unless subpoenaed. The only innocent party in this affair is the ex-lover's wife. *She* should get the $2 million kept safely in an account where her hubby can't touch it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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