Getting out of debt

[Mom-ninja.]

DH and I are ready to follow The Ramsey crowd.

 

We don't have any extras to cut out except the kids' activities. Sigh. So, we need to make the decision about whether to continue those activities or not. Both boys take karate and piano. We spend $330 a month total for these.

 

I keep having a debate with myself. I feel that karate and piano are important developmentally.

 

I think most here know why music study is important.

 

Karate also provides a lot for my boys. They love it. It provides a great sensory therapy for my middle ds, who is sensory seeking. It helps teach focus and concentration. Just today we tied in our book discussion on The Story of Ferdinand with the current lesson being discussed in their karate class, how violence is not the answer. Karate has been a huge motivation tool for me to use. The Sensei really tries to connect what the kids do in their lives to karate. So, for example, if you are not doing your best in school, or not doing chores at home, then you do not get your belt promotion or do not participate in board breaking. It's a great karate school, and I feel my boys gain excellent benefits. That's why we've been going there for 3 years.

 

Now, how do I bring myself to take the boys out of these two activities? Do I have to? Do I ask my kids to sacrifice so we can pay down debt. It will take several years to pay off our debt. Do I ask them to forgo activities for the next 3 to 5 years? Even if these activities are good for them educationally and developmentally?

 

I mentioned to the boys perhaps stopping their activities and neither were happy. My middle ds cried. I'm already having big issues with him. So much so that he's being evaluated by an OT and a child psychiatrist. His Dr. has suggested anti-anxiety treatments for the time being. So, how much would I be adding to his issues and anxiety by removing him from two things he loves? (On that note, we may have no choice once we find out how much we have to pay out of pocket for his treatment plan. I'll tackle that when we know more.)

 

Can we pay off debt without canceling these things? Technically, yes. It would take longer.

 

The other option is to try and sell DH's car, and try to swing it with one vehicle. DH's work commute is 32 miles on way, and he starts between 7 and 7:30. So on days I would need the car, the kids would be getting up quite early. ;) That would also put a lot of mileage on our van....fast.

 

Blech.

[Parrothead]

I'm in the same situation. I desperately want to get out of debt fast. I'm not willing to take dd out of dance and karate. If we had been able to have other children and dd had built in play mates I would probably choose differently.

 

If it takes us an extra 6 months to pay off one of the vehicles because of my unwillingness to pull dd out of her activities, so be it.

[elfgivas]

maybe there are other "extras" you could cut that we don't think of extras really. do you have cable? it can go. cell phones and a house phone? one of those can go and the other can go to basic service only. soda pop? it can go. etc. etc.

 

if you hang up laundry instead of drying it in the dryer you can save one month of karate and piano a year. now to find the other 11....

 

folks around here sometimes give up one month of activities, sometimes december when life is already going to be crazy.

 

why not try it with the boys still in activities and see how you do?

 

good luck!

ann

[ChrisOR]

 

We don't have any extras to cut out except the kids' activities. Sigh. So, we need to make the decision about whether to continue those activities or not. Both boys take karate and piano. We spend $330 a month total for these.

 

 

The other option is to try and sell DH's car, and try to swing it with one vehicle. DH's work commute is 32 miles on way, and he starts between 7 and 7:30. So on days I would need the car, the kids would be getting up quite early. ;) That would also put a lot of mileage on our van....fast.

 

Blech.

 

Your situation is exactly ours. The only wiggle room is the kids' activities (which happen to include piano/karate for DS and piano/ballet for DD). I know what you mean about the value in those lessons. Is there a part-time rate that gives much of a break for karate? With the age of your kids, even part-time would be better than nothing, and they could increase their attendance as your budget allowed in the future. At our dojo, helping out lower belt classes is a way to get more dojo time. I wonder if a PT student could attend their belt class plus a lower belt class each week? Do you get a family discount for having multiple children?

 

I guess I would rather get rid of the 2nd car. Your commute is tough, though, and I understand that as I live 35 miles from the town where all of our activities are too. We are fortunate that DH's job includes a small company car, which doesn't fit our entire family (for a paycheck deduction so not entirely free, but cheaper than owning one), so we only own one car that does seat our whole family. I think wear-and-tear plus gas on one vehicle would still be cheaper than gas, insurance, payments, etc on two vehicles.

 

ETA: I like the suggestion to skip December lessons!

Edited September 17, 2010 by ChrisOR

[Guest janainaz]

We spend $330 a month total for these

 

I'd take the debt and allow my kids to be in some or AN activity, but not for $330 month! I did a double-take when I saw that amount. Really?

Wow!

 

Activities are important, and I would not cut those out, but does it really have to cost that much? My kids are in activities, but our activities and sports do not cost nearly that much. Not even close.

 

And FWIW, since my first son was born, we moved from So. CA to Arizona, sold my dh's car, and have lived with one for almost 10 years. For a time, we had to make it work, and now that my dh works at home, it does not make sense to have two cars. I'd rather have the money. But if you are serious about getting out of debt, it can be done. It's not always the most convenient situation, but it is workable. It's amazing what can be done when things HAVE to be done. Your entire perspective changes, and you end up seeing that you really are not missing out on what you thought you were.

[MamaAkins]

I completely understand your dilemma. My children's activities are one area that I'm just not willing to cut completely. I would rather have it take us a little longer to pay off our debt than to pull the kids out of their activities. That being said, $330 does seem high. Is it possible to look at other avenues to pursue those interests? Could you find a homeschooled high schooler that is willing to do piano lessons for a lower rate? Could you find martial arts classes through a community center or at a less expensive studio? I do know that costs vary depending on the cost of living in your area, so maybe those are the "going rate" where you live. If you can't find a way to reduce the costs, could you find a way to bring in additional income to cover the costs of the activities? For example, I babysit for another family during the week and I also clean the dance studios where my daughters take dance classes (the money I earn more than covers the cost of their activities, our gas, and our van payment...with some leftover to cover other household costs).

Good luck!

[MelanieM]

Can we pay off debt without canceling these things? Technically, yes. It would take longer.

 

If you can come up with a reasonable debt repayment plan without canceling the activities, and you really think it would be that huge a blow to the kids to give them up, then I'd keep them for now and see how it goes. Or perhaps let them choose which of the activities to keep and which to let go of for this year?

 

Is there anything you can do to increase income a little? Perhaps something the kids can work on with you so that they can help raise funds for the activities? I know they're little still, but my little ones are always super interested in earning money and would happily set up a table in the yard selling something every day if I let them. lol!

 

What about asking family members to contribute to the music/karate fund for Christmas and birthday presents? And perhaps doing the same yourselves? I know it might be hard for the kids to have these activities become their only gifts, but maybe you could do a very frugal Christmas and add money you would normally budget for presents to the activities fund.

[MamaAkins]

Another idea: if you have family members that give your kids gifts for holidays or birthdays....you could ask them to give the "gift of a lesson." That way the kids get to continue the activities they love and it won't affect your budget!

[cougarmom4]

Maybe you could do piano lessons every OTHER week...that would cut the cost down to half.

[Mom-ninja.]

I've looked for extras.

 

No TV at all.

 

DH's cell phone is paid by his work. Mine is a track phone in case I break down.

 

We do pay for internet. DH needs it when he has to work from home, which can happen any time of the day or night. His other option would be to drive into work any time an emergency came up. At 2 a.m. he'd much rather log in at home than drive 30 miles.

 

We do not buy snack foods due to food allergies. We do not buy soda. We drink water. I buy a container of juice about once a month. Ok, I do buy popcorn for our popper.

 

Groceries are expensive due to food allergies/sensitivities. Gluten free bread and pasta is expensive. We don't eat out because it's just too hard with the food allergies.

 

While I do dry on the line some, I can do that more.

[ZeldaRules]

Do any of you have cable or the sort of pay-for-tv? We never did Dave Ramsey, but before we had kids, we followed a plan like his on our own making. Our only debt is our house.

 

If I wanted to cut cost, the first place I would do it would be to eliminate pay-for-tv, only pay for internet and have a Netflix membership. You can watch a lot of TV with a computer and Netflix (connecting your computer to your TV). My husband loves sports, so we pay for tv.

 

I know one of his first things is to sell something to have $1000 in the bank. If you sell something, will you have more than $1000 to help you from NOT giving up the kids activities?

 

Could you stop piano lessons, but still have him play the piano on a regular basis and you lead him a little? Ask the teacher to guide you a little to teach him on your own??? I guess that would work if you had a piano, if you don't, that may be hard. If you go to church, perhaps your church has one he can practice on??? Some churches have a formal one, and a not-so-formal one that kids can play on.

 

Is there some other music something you could put him in that is cheaper?

 

Are you in a big city, where you may have other options that could be a lot cheaper? If you go to church, your church may have musical activities/opportunities. If your church is small, maybe you want to go to a bigger one to get that. It's hard to change churches if you love the one you go to, but I would rather sacrifice a church to get better opportunities for my child.

 

I have friends who have done the Ramsey plan and swear by it. She has said paying cash for everything makes a big difference and you spend less.

 

Good luck with your venture to pay off your debt. Remember...baby steps, it's all about baby steps and the little goals to get to the big one. ;)

[ChrisOR]

I've been reading the other replies. I just thought of this ... we didn't have piano lessons during the summer because our teacher takes summers off, and DD's ballet school breaks for August. Maybe you could break from lessons in December and July/August? A little break makes my kids enjoy their lessons more anyway. And summer is nice enough to play outdoors and just be a kid without lessons.

 

There is a local music school that offers group piano lessons for kids. Maybe something like that?

[JenC3]

Honestly I'd cut piano. You could maybe find a way to trade or just wait a few years. They are young and if they really want to learn music later when you have cleared debt than you can start up again. I'm guessing that would give you an extra $130 per month for debt. Can you do any from home to pick up a bit more cash?

[Mom-ninja.]

Do you get a family discount for having multiple children?

 

 

Yes, the second child is half price.

 

Karate for both boys for the month is $150 which is a god deal around here.

 

Piano for both is $180. Going rate here.

[mom2abcd]

I have a free month at the DR forums. When people post their budgets, it helps a lot. Others can see where to make suggestions.

 

Personally, I think $330/month for two boys' karate and piano is VERY, VERY expensive. I agree with someone's suggestion to find an older homeschooler to teach piano for $5/lesson. That would be about $40/month. Karate may have to wait until they're older. Some churches offer things like karate and indoor soccer for free.

 

You can do it!!! What a great feeling it will be. You are teaching your boys some valuable lessons by getting out of (and then staying out of) debt!

[ZeldaRules]

Until I moved, I had my son in Kindermusik. We had a great teacher. It was about an hour long and was only $185 for the semester. It was once a week. The kids learned a lot about music, instruments, etc. It goes to age 7. Perhaps that is something you could substitue for piano for your 6YO. Some places only go up to 5, but if you have a teacher that goes to 7, it could be a great substitute. He is still getting music, but you are cutting that cost in 1/2.

 

Here is the website:

http://www.kindermusik.com/defaultb.aspx

[Joker]

I spend $370 for two kids to do swimming and a run club for 3 months. That's total - not per month. We're in debt as well and have cut everything but these activities but I don't feel they are too expensive and I want the dds to have something. I would not be paying over $300 / month for kids activities if I had debt - at least one of them would go or I would find a cheaper way to do both. It's hard and I hope you find a way to get it done.

[FriedClams]

Would you take out a loan today to pay for your kids to take piano and sports? Basically, that's what you are doing now by not paying off the debt and continuing with the classes. [Can you tell I listen to a lot of Dave?]

 

If it were me, my first step would be to see if I can find comparable activities cheaper. I would send out an email to the local homeschool group and see if any young lady (or boy - but locally it's mostly young ladies) would teach your kids piano. A recent HS grad here teaches for $5 a 30 minute lesson. No, it's not the same instruction you get for $150 a month from a teacher with 30 years experience - but it's very good and a TREMENDOUS opportunity for families that cannot pay more. I would email around - you might be really surprised.

 

I'd also see if any local churches off TKD. One here does - meets twice a week - taught by 4 black belts - and it's totally free. Call all the LARGE or larger churches in your area and ask what activities they have for the kids.

 

I would also gladly get rid of the second car. Do you have bikes? Walking distance to anything? I think it would be well worth it to be home more, have an easier pace and cut the debt.

 

For us - the activities (assuming I could not get the price down SIGNIFICANTLY) - and the car - would go. For just the activities - in 6 months - that's nearly $2,000 that could have gone to debt. In a year - $4000. You say it'll be 3-5 five years - well that is $12,000 to $15,000 that could have gone to debt. And that's assuming you don't add anything else to the mix as they get older.

 

To me, that's worth it. Because really, the whole paying off debt isn't about the debt - it's about your whole relationship to money and stuff and things and how you want to change your family's future. I would comfort myself in knowing that there are LOADS of wonderful, exceptional, interesting, well-rounded people that never took a day of piano. They will be fine. They can get exercise elsewhere. They will learn and grow with you and they will be fine.

 

That's what I would do. Hang in there. Paying off debt and getting a hold of your finances is like a huge diet that you go on with your husband. 'Nuff said there, eh? Good luck - hold your Dh and those boys tightly!

[justasque]

Can you barter with either the karate school or the piano teacher? At our dance studio, moms sometimes work in the office, or clean in the evening, or do other work that helps pay the tuition.

 

Getting the piano bill down seems to be the hard part. Can you take music lessons at your local public school? Or find a less expensive teacher?

 

Are you making your gluten-free foods from scratch? Can you move away from gluten-type foods in general by tweaking your diet (for example, no cookies/pasta at all instead of the expensive gluten-free versions)?

 

Can you get a job in the evening, to bring in a few dollars to pay for the karate and piano? Ten or fifteen hours a week would go a long way towards covering those expenses.

[QueenCat]

Yes, the second child is half price.

 

Karate for both boys for the month is $150 which is a god deal around here.

 

Piano for both is $180. Going rate here.

 

Those are pretty average prices around here. Not high at all, and I've priced both extensively at times. Honestly, I believe in saving and reducing debt BUT I also believe in the here and now, not everything is about the future, some is about the present. I would regret it in a few years if I canceled my kids activities when it wasn't about food/shelter/clothing/health. Doesn't bother me at all to take longer to increase the savings, pay down the debt. In fact, it is what we're doing. We save for retirement, short term savings, and have halved our debt in the past 5 years. It would be paid off if we did nothing for the here and now, and I would regret that. Kids won't be at home in 10 years, and I won't be able to make up to them the activities lost or the vacations not gone on. I can save more later, as long as I'm saving some now, just not as much.

[Rosie_0801]

Gluten free bread and pasta is expensive.

 

Don't buy them. You can eat rice, corn tortillas if you can buy the flour- they are easy to make with a press, mealie meal, potatoes and legumes.

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

[dcurry]

Can you barter with either the karate school or the piano teacher? At our dance studio, moms sometimes work in the office, or clean in the evening, or do other work that helps pay the tuition.

 

Getting the piano bill down seems to be the hard part. Can you take music lessons at your local public school? Or find a less expensive teacher?

 

:iagree: We contacted our daughter's art teacher, and they needed someone to clean the studio on the weekends. She and I go together, and it covers her art lessons. We've made quite a few arrangements like this. We're working more, but I think the kids are getting a real appreciation for their activities.

 

Could they maybe mow lawns or walk dogs to help pay for their lessons? I also liked the idea of asking family members to contribute to lessons as birthday & Christmas gifts. (You could ask your kids about it... would you rather the lessons, or gifts?) You might find something you could do as a family to supplement the income.

 

As for piano, if you are not particularly attached to the teacher, I agree that you could find a college student who wouldn't charge so much. (It depends on how far along your kids are). You could call the local colleges/universities and ask to post a job for the music majors. College kids are always looking to earn a few dollars. Mention what you can pay. ($100/month to give 3 boys weekly piano lesson). They might be willing to take less because the boys would be back to back, and it's money they wouldn't have otherwise.

 

I hope you can figure something out.

[happi duck]

Can you continue piano on your own at home?

[musicianmom]

Find a piano teacher who has small children and trade babysitting services for lessons.

[Renee in NC]

I've looked for extras.

 

No TV at all.

 

DH's cell phone is paid by his work. Mine is a track phone in case I break down.

 

We do pay for internet. DH needs it when he has to work from home, which can happen any time of the day or night. His other option would be to drive into work any time an emergency came up. At 2 a.m. he'd much rather log in at home than drive 30 miles.

 

We do not buy snack foods due to food allergies. We do not buy soda. We drink water. I buy a container of juice about once a month. Ok, I do buy popcorn for our popper.

 

Groceries are expensive due to food allergies/sensitivities. Gluten free bread and pasta is expensive. We don't eat out because it's just too hard with the food allergies.

 

While I do dry on the line some, I can do that more.

 

I would cut out the gluten-free bread and pasta. Just don't eat those things. I know it sounds crazy, but would it work? You just wouldn't eat sandwiches.

[Jennifer in MI]

Yes, the second child is half price.

 

Karate for both boys for the month is $150 which is a god deal around here.

 

Piano for both is $180. Going rate here.

 

I think these rates are completely reasonable! These would both be HUGE deals in my area.

 

As much as I like Dave Ramsey and the help he's given so many people, I just couldn't take the kids' activities away. We are at the point of debating whether to pay down our mortgage much faster. We decided not to, because it would seriously affect our way of life. We will pay a little extra, but not massive amounts because I want to be able to afford karate, piano, baseball, and some extra fun as a family, etc. There has to be a balance.

 

But, could you talk with the piano teacher? Could you go to every other week? Could you barter with her for every other lesson? Same with karate? Does your club need someone to answer the phones in exchange for lessons? Etc.

 

Can you coupon? I know your food probably doesn't go on sale often, but there are places - like CVS and Rite Aid - that have deals every week. I haven't paid for shampoo, razors, dishwasher detergent, dish soap, soap, contact solution, medicines, etc in years. Most months I actually make a little money. I take what I would've paid for those items and stick them in a special account. It's nice to see that grow! Some people take their extra items from this type of shopping and sell them for a profit. I've never done that though.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Huge hugs as you make some tough choices.

[EmilyK]

I assume you've thought about this, but is it possible for you to find a Saturday or evening job? My mom did weekend bookkeeping when I was little, I have friends who work as spa receptionists, in retail, post office etc to have some extras.

[DawnM]

Well......this is not going to be popular, but if you are in debt and can't pay the debt while keeping your kids in the extra classes, you can't afford the extra classes. That is what Dave Ramsey would say.

 

I have really researched extra curricular activities and have come up with some that are free or low cost.

 

We have a homeschool Tae Kwon Do that is $6 for the first kid and $5 for any other children. We go once a week for 3 boys and it comes to around $60/month.

 

We also do cub and boyscouts, talk about bang for your buck......$40/year and some extras during the year, but not a whole lot. That is our biggest extra curricular and we plan to do it through Eagle. It is part of our hsing. It is also a homeschool only pack/troop!

 

When we were getting out of debt we ONLY did cub/boyscouts! We just didn't have the money to do all the extras. We did the free homeschool activities.....park days, Rec center days, etc.....that was it!

 

I think it is harder if you have been doing it and have to cut it out vs. just not starting until you are out of debt, but it sounds like something needs to go.

 

Dawn

[Sherry in OH]

I would not cut the activities. Your son's OT is likely to tell you that he NEEDS those activities, and may even suggest more.

 

Contact your Internet provider and see if you can get a lower rate. If there are multiple providers in your area, you can sometimes get your current provider to match specials offered by another provider.

 

Lower your grocery bills. Find acceptable substitutes for the more expensive items. You do not need to eat pasta, have rice, potatoes, or polenta instead. Make your own breads or don't eat it.

 

Encourage grandparents to give gifts of lessons instead of other gifts. This works best if the children mention lessons when asked what they would like.

 

There may be other areas of your budget that you could tweak to free up a few more dollars a month. You said you are reducing the debt without cutting the activities, just more slowly. Slow and steady reduction of debt is okay.

[Mom0012]

We are in a similar situation, but I won't drop my kids activities -- ballet, swimming and piano. I think they are important and they are only kids once. We live very frugally (though we have tons of medical expenses) and our debt is simply money we paid for a college prepaid tuition plan.

 

My kids are almost 9 and 11 and I think in a few years, I could work part-time during tax season. I'm thinking about taking on some babysitting in the evenings to at least build up our savings again, but the kids' activities will be the last thing to go.

[FO4UR]

It sounds like Karate is is very important to your dc.

 

I would cut piano for a time...and it pains me to say this (as a musician), but I think that is easier to maintain at home without lessons. Find some music in their ability level and require them to keep up their practice routine and learn new but (albeit) easy pieces.

 

I like the idea of bartering for lessons. I've got 3 young dc if anyone in my area wants voice lessons in trade for babysitting or housecleaning....just sayin':tongue_smilie: If your dc could "share a lesson"...trading off weeks, it would keep them moving slowly forward.

[Ottakee]

I have children with special needs so I can understand how activities can provide a lot of therapy, etc. as well. We spend our money on horses and riding lessons---so not cheap.

 

That said, here are a few ideas:

 

1. Find a cheaper piano teacher for the boys or try a more self teaching or mom teaching program. If they aren't highly gifted in this area, then waiting 1-2 years won't really hurt them. Every other week lessons might work as well.

 

2. Karate is one I would keep but see about any scholarships, bartering, etc. for it. Maybe relatives can give gifts of uniforms, lesson fees, etc. The idea of checking around for churches or other social services groups that provide karate for free or cheaper is good as well.

 

3. On the car, could you keep a good condition, good fuel economy car for your dh and then have you drive an older car if you only need it for shorter trips (doesn't work though if you are 30 miles from anything). If you did this you can drop much of the insurance coverage on the local beater car and save that way as well.

 

4. See about an energy audit, call around about internet plans, call your insurance agency for reviews and other places for their rates, etc. This might save some money.

 

5. Could you babysit on an occ. basis or do before school care, etc?

 

It is a give and take thing here. I like much of what DR has to say but in some things, you sacrifice so much now so that you can live better later that you miss opportunities now that might never come back.

 

For us, we have teens and a young adult at home. We are thinking of a bigger vacation because waiting several years might mean it would never happen. Sometimes building family memories is priceless as well.

[mmasmommy]

$330 a month = $3960 a year!!

 

We are following Dave's plan. We paid off almost $19,000 in debt in 9 months. We do not have a large income. If fact we have a fairly small income (dh is self employed) and a rather large mortgage payment. We slashed pretty much everything extra.

 

Budget, budget, budget and stick to it!! Use cash, if it's gone for the month then it's gone no running to the atm for more.

 

Shop your insurance for a better rate. If you can't find one up your deductible and drop comprehensive coverage if it's not necessary. (old car that wouldn't pay out much if totaled)

 

Coupon. Even if you can't for groceries. Like a pp I haven't paid for shampoo, deodorant, or toothpaste in years.

 

Become the electricity police. Make sure all lights, TV's, computers, etc. are turned off when not in use. Bump your thermostat up in the summer and down in the winter. Start by 1 degree every few days until you get to the point you can't stand it.

 

Shop consignment stores, yard sales, or Goodwill for clothes.

 

I got a part time job in the evenings. I know this isn't for everyone but it works for us. I'm a secretary at the local community college. My hours are set and I make a good hourly wage. So far it has really worked out well.

 

I get trying to balance today with the future. It's something I struggled with for a looooong time and the biggest reason we were in debt with $0 in savings. Maybe cut back to just Karate for a year and use the extra $180 to throw at debt.

 

It's not easy or fun but you CAN do it!! Our mantra around here is:

 

You can't always get what you want when you want it.

 

Good luck!

Edited September 17, 2010 by mmasmommy

[BlsdMama]

I'd agree with advertising for someone. Ana had a very beloved piano teacher. She was a senior, actually she was 90 when she was teaching Ana. She just passed away this last week at 94 and was wearing jeans and mowing her own lawn up 'til the end. She was an amazing person.

(Not relevant though. :D)

 

Piano lessons? $7 a week. And that was up from $6 a week when we began and she apologized for raising rates. :001_huh:

 

That said, a friend and I were recently talking about this. In our family we've decided not to put the children in activities and put money towards things that will not further the end goal. It's so easy to think, "Wow, they are good at X or they enjoy X or X is fun and they look so cute in their little uniform." But if it doesn't serve some kind of end purpose, then what's the point? It's a bit like buying a $200 dress every month and sticking it in your closet to have, but never wear.

 

So if you don't foresee your 18 year old doing karate, why pour (@$150/per month ages 8-18) $18,000 into karate?

 

150 per month - 12 months in a year - $1800 per year. Ten years down the line, YES, you've dropped $18 THOUSAND dollars on karate. And if they don't really ever use karate again, then yes, it was a waste of eighteen thousand dollars.

 

I'm all for investment. We've done the soccer thing, the piano thing, the dance thing.... And we now have so many children we've had to seriously examine and evaluate what is worthy of both time & money.

 

So while the plan was to have EVERY child take piano, I'm now thinking those initial lessons - the money would have been better spent on ME taking piano. And Christian? Well, we were going to make him take piano for three years, but he has zero intention of continuing, so why bother? It wouldn't be an investment for him... Just money that could have been spent elsewhere.

 

Also, sometimes we start things a little too early. We had our five year old playing soccer. Seriously? It was fun, don't get me wrong, but she is much more physically capable now, three years later. There are some things that can wait a few years. And, at $150-$200 per month for an activity, waiting for a year or two might be worthwhile.

 

I'm definitely NOT saying don't spend $$ on lessons. What I'm saying is truly evaluate. IS this money SPENT or money INVESTED? Do you see the child going somewhere with this particular talent? Is it a gift or something to do? Do grandmas and grandpas send $$ or give gifts for Christmas and/or birthdays? Could you use that towards lessons? With Ana we agreed to pay for lessons if she would study the piano and learn the keys first with me and learn to play some simple songs. I don't know how to play the piano, lol. But we figured if she was truly committed to it, she'd do it. She did too. And, no surprise, she practiced faithfully for four years. She loves piano and now would like to learn to play the violin. And I consider that... An investment. :D

[Ferdie]

Well......this is not going to be popular, but if you are in debt and can't pay the debt while keeping your kids in the extra classes, you can't afford the extra classes. That is what Dave Ramsey would say.

 

I have really researched extra curricular activities and have come up with some that are free or low cost.

 

We have a homeschool Tae Kwon Do that is $6 for the first kid and $5 for any other children. We go once a week for 3 boys and it comes to around $60/month.

 

We also do cub and boyscouts, talk about bang for your buck......$40/year and some extras during the year, but not a whole lot. That is our biggest extra curricular and we plan to do it through Eagle. It is part of our hsing. It is also a homeschool only pack/troop!

 

When we were getting out of debt we ONLY did cub/boyscouts! We just didn't have the money to do all the extras. We did the free homeschool activities.....park days, Rec center days, etc.....that was it!

 

I think it is harder if you have been doing it and have to cut it out vs. just not starting until you are out of debt, but it sounds like something needs to go.

 

Dawn

 

:iagree:

 

When I was researching martial arts several studios told me that they thought children got more out of their classes when they started a little older. Your children are still pretty young. If you can get yourself out of debt in three years there is still time for them to learn a martial art when they are older. Also it is okay for your son to be disappointed. Managing finances is a great life lesson.

 

Maybe you can find a different sports outlet for them. Try park and rec, church groups or hs organizations.

 

I would keep the older child in piano and tell you younger child that they get to start lesson when then turn 9.

[Mom-ninja.]

I've been reading the other replies. I just thought of this ... we didn't have piano lessons during the summer because our teacher takes summers off, and DD's ballet school breaks for August. Maybe you could break from lessons in December and July/August? A little break makes my kids enjoy their lessons more anyway. And summer is nice enough to play outdoors and just be a kid without lessons.

 

 

Yes, we usually take July off of piano because the teacher goes to Europe. That month the $180 goes to debt. :001_smile:

 

Summer here however, is NOT a nice time to play outdoors. Winter is great for outdoor play. ;) We hit the books during the summer.

 

 

Would you take out a loan today to pay for your kids to take piano and sports? Basically, that's what you are doing now by not paying off the debt and continuing with the classes. [Can you tell I listen to a lot of Dave?

 

Well, that's an in your face way to put it. ;)

 

 

If it were me, my first step would be to see if I can find comparable activities cheaper. I would send out an email to the local homeschool group and see if any young lady (or boy - but locally it's mostly young ladies) would teach your kids piano.

I can send an email but I don't live in a town with a lot of home schoolers. The local group is not inclusive.

 

 

I would also gladly get rid of the second car. Do you have bikes? Walking distance to anything? I think it would be well worth it to be home more, have an easier pace and cut the debt.

I don't live in a place where walking and biking are very doable. It's 90s and 100s for most of the year. For about 3 months in summer we get 60 degree weather.

 

Yes, I am willing to stay home more and not have a car.

 

 

I would comfort myself in knowing that there are LOADS of wonderful, exceptional, interesting, well-rounded people that never took a day of piano. They will be fine. They can get exercise elsewhere. They will learn and grow with you and they will be fine.

Yes, they would be fine without any extras. However, OT has said karate is great for sensory as is piano. I think karate more so than piano.

 

 

Can you barter with either the karate school or the piano teacher? At our dance studio, moms sometimes work in the office, or clean in the evening, or do other work that helps pay the tuition.

 

Getting the piano bill down seems to be the hard part. Can you take music lessons at your local public school? Or find a less expensive teacher?

 

Are you making your gluten-free foods from scratch? Can you move away from gluten-type foods in general by tweaking your diet (for example, no cookies/pasta at all instead of the expensive gluten-free versions)?

 

Can you get a job in the evening, to bring in a few dollars to pay for the karate and piano? Ten or fifteen hours a week would go a long way towards covering those expenses.

 

Good ideas. There's a local community college I could ask around at for a piano teacher.

 

Learning to make GF bread from scratch. Looking for a good recipe. We already have cut out all other foods like cookies, crackers, tortilla wraps, granola bars, and such.

 

No, to a job evenings. My youngest is very much not ready for that. DH and I feel very strongly about mama being available for little ones. DH would look for extra work before he would agree to me finding work. Unless, of course my little one could be with me.

 

I'm always brain storming there.

 

Those are pretty average prices around here. Not high at all, and I've priced both extensively at times.

 

I'm glad you posted. I was beginning to think I lived in the most expensive area in the country! Honestly, the karate price is an amazing deal. We also don't have to pay for new belts or testing, and that is expensive in other martial arts places here. He also does a once a month parents' nights out party for the kids free of charge.

 

So far every piano teacher I have talked to charges $23-$25 a student per half hour. It's the norm price here.

 

 

Honestly, I believe in saving and reducing debt BUT I also believe in the here and now, not everything is about the future, some is about the present. I would regret it in a few years if I canceled my kids activities when it wasn't about food/shelter/clothing/health. Doesn't bother me at all to take longer to increase the savings, pay down the debt. In fact, it is what we're doing. We save for retirement, short term savings, and have halved our debt in the past 5 years. It would be paid off if we did nothing for the here and now, and I would regret that. Kids won't be at home in 10 years, and I won't be able to make up to them the activities lost or the vacations not gone on.

I believe this too. I see both sides. Yes, my kids would grow up fine with piano. However, I also don't want to live my life only thinking of the future. The future is not a guarantee. Just this past Monday a family friend suddenly passed away from a heart attack. No one had any idea he had heart disease. He had zero warnings and he was only 61. Another friend of mine, who is now remarried, lost her first husband in a car accident when she was only 25 and he was 29. Her baby was only 5 months old.

I don't want to live a life of thinking later, later, later when we don't know if we have a later.

 

Don't buy them. You can eat rice, corn tortillas if you can buy the flour- they are easy to make with a press, mealie meal, potatoes and legumes.

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

 

What is a mealie meal? And no legumes either. We already eat a TON of rice. Just about daily. Oh, and kiddos are not supposed to eat potatoes either! Yes, feeding them is a MAJOR headache.

 

 

Could they maybe mow lawns or walk dogs to help pay for their lessons? I also liked the idea of asking family members to contribute to lessons as birthday & Christmas gifts. (You could ask your kids about it... would you rather the lessons, or gifts?)

 

 

 

Yes, I have asked grandparents to contribute to lessons as gifts. So far none have actually done so. They did, though, get the boys magazine subscriptions one year when I suggested it.

 

 

Can you continue piano on your own at home?

 

I am so not a musical person. :tongue_smilie: With teaching them everything else I have no desire to learn piano myself to teach them. ;)

 

 

I would cut out the gluten-free bread and pasta. Just don't eat those things. I know it sounds crazy, but would it work? You just wouldn't eat sandwiches.

 

I buy two loaves of bread for the month. I freeze one loaf. DS gets one loaf for two weeks. If he runs out, he runs out and doesn't get more until the next month. He already does things like eat tuna salad straight from the bowl and such. I am going to try baking bread here.

 

As for no pasta.....well, we eat rice most of the time. The boys shouldn't eat potatoes or sweet potatoes. No quinoa either. No lentils or other legumes. Basically, the boys should just go outside and graze on grass.

 

 

I think these rates are completely reasonable! These would both be HUGE deals in my area.

 

As much as I like Dave Ramsey and the help he's given so many people, I just couldn't take the kids' activities away. We are at the point of debating whether to pay down our mortgage much faster. We decided not to, because it would seriously affect our way of life. We will pay a little extra, but not massive amounts because I want to be able to afford karate, piano, baseball, and some extra fun as a family, etc. There has to be a balance.

 

 

 

Yea, another person letting me know it's not crazy expensive. Everyone who thinks it's too expensive, where do you all live?

 

My boys want to play soccer but I've told them no.

 

One thing I've thought of is having one ds in karate and the other in piano, and then switching each month. Do you think that might work?

 

So far DH is leaning toward selling his car.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Kleine Hexe

[Mom0012]

Don't buy them. You can eat rice, corn tortillas if you can buy the flour- they are easy to make with a press, mealie meal, potatoes and legumes.

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

 

I have to say my son is gluten free and we eat a lot of rice and potatoes, but there is no way I'd cut out his loaf of bread each week unless I was going to cut out everyone else's bread as well. That just doesn't seem fair to me. And, honestly, I don't know how we'd all get by without bread for sandwiches and toast for breakfast. Bread isn't cheap like it used to be anymore, but it takes us a long way in our diets each week.

 

Lisa

[Old Dominion Heather]

For my family, I do consider sports an investment. It is a mental health investment for them and for me. They need that time to be with kids who are not homeschooled AND since mine are pretty good with the whole academic thing, they need the reminder that they are NOT wonderful at everything.

 

I am mostly paying for them to learn to deal with losing, deal with kids they don't like, and learn how to handle competition in a healthy way. Life lesson things, IMO. Sports are completely worth the investment for us and they are budgeted.

 

However, we did encourage the boys to play a seasonal sport. DS 11 is doing Xcountry this fall, DS 8 is playing football, and DS 5 is playing soccer. We've got the upcoming fees for basketball already in the budget as a line item. Baseball or spring soccer will be the same thing in the spring. So we are probably looking at (because we play rec league for most of these) about $400-$600 for sports altogether. That would include cleats, running shoes, etc...

 

You might want to consider asking your boys if they would like to try something new, and see if they want to make the change.

[Chris in VA]

I would keep the oldest where he is, skip piano for the youngest, and try to cut back other areas.

The OT is really important, and karate is so good for a sensory-seeking child. Your middle son (he's the 6yo, right?) can continue to play piano, just not with lessons right now. (And the prices are reasonable for this area, too--we pay $30 a half hour for piano and will pay the same for viola.)

 

I'd just go slow and steady. Save where you can, but keep most of the activities.

[Mom-ninja.]

I would not cut the activities. Your son's OT is likely to tell you that he NEEDS those activities, and may even suggest more.

 

She already has.

 

Contact your Internet provider and see if you can get a lower rate. If there are multiple providers in your area, you can sometimes get your current provider to match specials offered by another provider.

Yes, we just switched internet and phone providers. We've also just switched home insurance carriers, and THAT was not easy. Not too many choices for home insurance when you live in my state. :glare:

 

 

Slow and steady reduction of debt is okay.

Slow and steady win the race. :001_smile:

 

 

We are following Dave's plan. We paid off almost $19,000 in debt in 9 months.

 

Great job!

 

Become the electricity police. Make sure all lights, TV's, computers, etc. are turned off when not in use. Bump your thermostat up in the summer and down in the winter. Start by 1 degree every few days until you get to the point you can't stand it.

 

Our thermostat is set at 83 degrees. In the winter I don't turn it on at all.

 

 

Shop consignment stores, yard sales, or Goodwill for clothes.

Yep, do. Plus, grandma is great at buying clothes. I rarely buy clothes for the kids. DH's work clothes are expensive. His dress code is business dress. Suits, ties, dress shoes for men are not cheap. Me? I just don't get new clothes. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

 

 

It's not easy or fun but you CAN do it!! Our mantra around here is:

 

You can't always get what you want when you want it.

 

Good luck!

 

Thanks!

 

 

It's so easy to think, "Wow, they are good at X or they enjoy X or X is fun and they look so cute in their little uniform." But if it doesn't serve some kind of end purpose, then what's the point?

 

Karate provides more for the boys than a cute uniform. Actually, we didn't pay for their uniforms. You get the first one free and we have used this one for three years.

 

 

So if you don't foresee your 18 year old doing karate, why pour (@$150/per month ages 8-18) $18,000 into karate?

I don't know if he'll be in it when he's 18. Why spend money on it if he is not destined to be a karate champion? Because it give them benefits now. My older ds has been asked to participate in the state tournaments. We declined due to cost. My middle ds gets sensory therapy from it.

 

150 per month - 12 months in a year - $1800 per year. Ten years down the line, YES, you've dropped $18 THOUSAND dollars on karate. And if they don't really ever use karate again, then yes, it was a waste of eighteen thousand dollars.

 

I don't agree. Yes, it's a lot of money. However, even if my ds doesn't open a karate studio when he's an adult I don't think learning karate is a waste. Sometimes it's the journey that's important not the finish.

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing suggestions, brain storming, and giving your points of view. This is a hard decision.

 

Someone asked if we can pay down debt while continuing these activities.Yes. Debt just would not be paid as quickly.

[Pippen]

I'm definitely NOT saying don't spend $$ on lessons. What I'm saying is truly evaluate. IS this money SPENT or money INVESTED? Do you see the child going somewhere with this particular talent? Is it a gift or something to do? Do grandmas and grandpas send $$ or give gifts for Christmas and/or birthdays? Could you use that towards lessons? With Ana we agreed to pay for lessons if she would study the piano and learn the keys first with me and learn to play some simple songs. I don't know how to play the piano, lol. But we figured if she was truly committed to it, she'd do it. She did too. And, no surprise, she practiced faithfully for four years. She loves piano and now would like to learn to play the violin. And I consider that... An investment. :D

 

I have three kids (middle school and high school) who are heavily involved in music, plus one of those is in her 8th year of dance and I wrestle with this as well. Since yours are so young, unless they absolutely love piano, I'd suggest holding off now (or finding an inexpensive alternative) then let them select instruments that they really want to play instead of the one that you have selected for them. You'll get more return on your investment. :)

[gingersmom]

I would definitely continue with the activities. Your kids are only young for such ashort time. I always regretted I could not afford to put my son in karate. He was in OT when he was younger and I have no doubt it would have been beneficial.

[Haiku]

I would not cut out kids' activities. It would feel like robbing my kids to pay for my mistakes. If it takes longer to pay your debt, well, it does.

 

That said, my husband's hours/pay were reduced 25% on Wednesday. We've already told the kids that we will not be doing the homeschool group activities that have a fee, we will not be going to homeschool gym, we will not be buying snacks at the grocery, etc. But for my kids' established activities (soccer and hockey), we will find the money somehow. These things provide a lot more than just "fun."

 

Tara

[cathmom]

I would not cut out kids' activities. It would feel like robbing my kids to pay for my mistakes. If it takes longer to pay your debt, well, it does.

 

 

Tara

 

:iagree:

 

I don't think it's the same as taking a loan to pay for the activities. I think that in most cases, homeschooled dc need at least one activity, and it sounds like the OP's dc really need theirs. If they could pay it off in less than a year, then maybe, but I wouldn't wait 3-4 years to do activities.

 

$19,000 in 9 months and you have a small income? That's over $2000 a month put toward debt, plus paying other living expenses. That's a lot!

[KrissiK]

One thing I've discovered doing the Dave Ramsey stuff is to make a very detailed accounting of everything you spend. You will be amazed at all the little ways you drop $1 here and $1 there and it all adds up. Do that first. Write down literally every single penny you spend, before you start cutting things that will make your lives miserable. You may not realize you are frittering away as much money as you are. For example, DH has taken the kids soccer candy to work to sell, and he's sold almost all of it. And I wonder if these people really realize how much money they're dropping on candy. KWIM?

[DawnM]

The poster who paid the $19K and the OP are two different people.

 

:iagree:

 

I don't think it's the same as taking a loan to pay for the activities. I think that in most cases, homeschooled dc need at least one activity, and it sounds like the OP's dc really need theirs. If they could pay it off in less than a year, then maybe, but I wouldn't wait 3-4 years to do activities.

 

$19,000 in 9 months and you have a small income? That's over $2000 a month put toward debt, plus paying other living expenses. That's a lot!

[DawnM]

I have recently discovered YNAB (You Need A Budget) .com and LOVE it! It is so user friendly AND has a forum to ask questions. I am only just starting on it and wish I had discovered it years ago before we started our get out of debt trek.

 

Dawn

 

One thing I've discovered doing the Dave Ramsey stuff is to make a very detailed accounting of everything you spend. You will be amazed at all the little ways you drop $1 here and $1 there and it all adds up. Do that first. Write down literally every single penny you spend, before you start cutting things that will make your lives miserable. You may not realize you are frittering away as much money as you are. For example, DH has taken the kids soccer candy to work to sell, and he's sold almost all of it. And I wonder if these people really realize how much money they're dropping on candy. KWIM?

[justasque]

Sometimes a karate or dance studio will hold homeschooler classes during the day at a reduced rate. It's a win-win - they use the studio when it would otherwise be empty, you get a reduced rate. Of course, you need enough homeschoolers at the right level to make it work, but it's something to explore.

[FaithManor]

Would it be possible to just take a break so that you occasionally have a month when you can save? I used to give December, June, July, and part of August off in my music studio if parents wanted. I only required that they pay their deposit for September (first month of lessons paid in advance) each May in order to hold that child's spot for autumn because I had a large waiting list.

 

Do you live near a YMCA? We don't but the one 45 minutes away offers free karate, fencing, basketball, swimming, and racketball lessons from qualified volunteers. Could you take advantage of something like that?

 

Also, we saved a lot when I went to home made cleaners (white vinegar, diluted Dr. Bronner's soap, laundry soap). I try to shop ahead when the local thrift store has it's end of season sale and get as many items in future sizes as possible....pennies on the dollar for nice items. We don't often purchase an item of clothing from a department store.

 

We cut a lot of food expenditures out by making sure we took food with us when we have to shop, go on field trips, go to activities, long car trips, etc. We put gas in the cars on Tuesday when the weekend rates (yeah there's huge price fixing despite what the government says) are lowered several cents. We don't gas up on the weekends.

Every little bit helps. Whenever we find a way to save even a little bit, I put the savings to the debt instead of spending it on something else unless that something else is going to help us live more sustainably.

 

Faith

 

Faith

[Wheres Toto]

I don't agree. Yes, it's a lot of money. However, even if my ds doesn't open a karate studio when he's an adult I don't think learning karate is a waste. Sometimes it's the journey that's important not the finish.

 

 

 

 

:iagree:

If I said what we pay a month or year for my daughter's dance (and have since she was 4 or 5) I'm sure many would think we are absolutely insane. I don't think my dd is going to be a professional dancer. Maybe some day she'll teach at a dance studio part time. But, it has given her enormous benefits over the years. During my divorce from her dad, it was the only point of consistency in her life and was a major factor in helping her through it. Exercise is known to increase endorphins and "good feelings". Then there's the: good exercise, staying in shape, staying active, being healthy, staying out of trouble, learning responsiblity, learn self confidence benefits as well.