My sister thinks I am racist

[caitlinsmom]

My husband has been unemployed for nearly a year. Needless to say we have been dealing with lots of creditors, especially our mortgage company. I am always polite and courteous when I speak to them. I have been negotiating with them on a short term modification for months now.

I mentioned to my sister one day after a particularly long and difficult conversation that I do not like speaking to someone I can't understand about my finances. I feel that because my finances are such an important part of our lives that I should be able to understand every single word they say so we are all on the same page. I mentioned that my mortgage company out sources and it is VERY difficult to understand a lot of their representatives. They also have a department based in the deep south. I said that when speaking to these divisions I have a hard time hearing them correctly because of thier background noise and their accents. They also have a hard time understanding me and will often repeat the same line over and over or become patronizing. Iam a fairly intelligent person who researches before I call so this is not a case of being slow on the pick up.

 

She told me she thinks I am racist because of this. In fact her words were "Wow I can not believe that just came out of your mouth." I said everything just like I typed it above.

 

Do I sound racist? I was not specific to any race or ethnicity it was just a broad "anyone I cant understand clearly".

[teamturner]

No, I don't think you sound racist at all.

 

I love my dear aunt to death and she was born and raised in another country. I still have a hard time understanding her ON THE PHONE. In person, it's a lot easier. I find it difficult to talk to her on the phone. I'd much rather talk to her in person.

[In the Rain]

I wouldn't call that racist.

[CatMomof3]

No. You are under a lot of stress and you want to be able to understand everything, that does not make you racist and I think it was a little immature of your sister to come to that conclusion (and yes I am a little judgmental this morning).

[ChristusG]

Definitely not racist. It's just a fact that some accents are harder to understand than others. I am not good at understanding accents or speech impediments. Does that make me racist? No....it just makes me someone who doesn't understand accents well. And it is frustrating when you can't understand what someone is saying and vice versa. It is embarassing to me, and I'm sure it is embarassing to the person who is trying to communicate with me.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

My grandmother came over on the boat from Ireland. I thought she was speaking a different language when I was a kid because her accent was so thick I couldn't understand her. That certainly has nothing to do with race. I don't think you are a racist either. If you are not accustomed to hearing different accents, it can be very hard to understand when someone has a thick accent. We have very close friends who are Indian, and I have to listen very closely to just casual conversation to understand everything they say. If I were talking on the phone to one of them about something as important as my mortgage, I would be getting very frustrated, too.

[Krista in LA]

Nothing racist about that. Apparently she has gone a little overboard with the whole PC thing.

[elegantlion]

Perhaps she needs to look up the meaning of racist.

 

According to MW...

 

 

Main Entry: rac·ism

Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\

Function: noun

Date: 1933

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

[Rosy]

I don't think what you shared sounds racist. I do think that calling people racist who are not racist causes a setback in race relations.

[Impish]

Heck, I agree with you! Nothing drives me battier than trying to get support for an issue, and having the rep not understand me, or I them. Seems to me that it should be a hiring requirement.

[Kimber]

People these days are overly sensitive to racism and sometimes call things racist that aren't.

 

It's a shame because everyone should have the right to choose and make choices about what's best for them. And as long as that choice doesn't hurt someone else, it's no one elses business. Pick who you want.

[Daisy]

As worded in the op, I don't find it racist.

 

Someone with excellent manners, an engaging personality, good diction, proper English, and a lack of slang would be a welcome change from the usual phone representative. :glare:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Not racist and I would do all my venting here with us in the future and not to your sister!

[elfgivas]

she's your sister. maybe she knows you better than just about anyone else? when one of our 4 dds says something like that to one of her sisters, she's usually right.... her sister will have noticed because she is outside the situation and so not emotionally stressed by it. of course there are the times when its all about projection and not about the sister in question at all.

 

a really long way of saying why not ask her what it is that she heard you saying? it may just be you being frustrated by the dreadful circumstances, and she missed that totally...

 

fwiw,

ann

[jujsky]

You don't sound racist to me. I have a difficult time understanding people with thick accents, and it can be very frustrating.

 

Funny story: My MIL has a thick, Russian accent. She was on the phone with some help desk/customer service rep for something that was obviously outsourced to India. She could not understand a word out of that man's mouth. Finally she blew up at him and screamed, "Why can you not speak English? I cannot understand you!" Of course once the words were out of her mouth she realized how silly that sounded & also realized that the poor Indian man on the other end was probably having just as much difficulty understanding HER strong accent as she was understanding HIS accent! :lol::lol::lol:

[Woodhaven]

No, not racist.

 

I've had similar problems trying to communicate with employees of our telephone company. It 's very frustrating to listen to a whole string of words and have no idea what words are being used!! How on earth can a person call that communication?!

 

It's NO service at all to finally get a LIVE person, only to have no idea what he or she is saying. It may as well be a foreign language that I don't know. It's not racist to not understand someone's speech.

[fhjmom]

It doesn't come across as racist to me. I am profoundly hard-of-hearing and have a lot of difficulty on the phone; add an accent to that and it is pretty much impossible for me to understand. I have often asked to speak to a native English speaker when I encounter a customer service representative with a thick accent. I am polite and do not make judgement statements and I have always been obliged (although I am not saying everyone I was tranferred to was truly a native speaker, but just had worked very hard to minimize their accent and were easier to understand).

 

When we were considering putting DD in public school for K because of the special services she needed and before we were sure we could get those services as homeschoolers, we asked that her school placement be changed because of accents. My DD's are also HOH and need good language models. Our 'home campus' for elementary is a school that is bi-lingual (half the classes are actually taught in Spanish for native Spanish speakers) and around 70% of the students are non-native English speakers. We based our transfer request to a different campus in part on the need for good peer language models and the ability to interact with peers without a language barrier. The transfer was granted to the school with a deaf ed teacher on campus and a much lower ELL population. Then we decided to homeschool so it was a moot point. :tongue_smilie:

 

Accents are difficult for me to deal with and I do not think stating that makes me racists.

[Mejane]

No, you're not racist; you're accentist. ;)

[Mejane]

People these days are overly sensitive to racism and sometimes call things racist that aren't.

 

 

 

:iagree:It's too bad because it takes the focus off of true racism.

[AHASRADA]

No, definitely not racist. You are not making a blanket statement, criticizing all members of a particular race, and suggesting they have less value or are entitled to fewer human rights than members of other races.

All human being have the right to work to provide for themselves and their families. At the same time, we all have different skills, strengths and weaknesses, which make us a better fit for certain positions than others.

 

I would be frustrated to find anyone serving me in a position for which they do not have the correct qualifications, particularly since there are so many highly-qualified individuals who are unable to find employment. I would presume clear English speaking skills to be a vital requirement for a customer service position. Whether a person lacks these skills due to their country or region of origin, native language, hearing loss, stroke, or lack of education, is irrelevant.

 

Your complaint is completely justified, and no, not racist.

[Kissy]

I don't think that is racist. I used to work in call centers for about a decade. When I first starting working for them everyone had to go through a typing test, an interview, and a voice test and all headsets came with noise cancelling mics. Towards the end of that time the requirements starting to seriously go down. There was no more voice test it was considered discrimination and companies had to buy cheaper mics because people kept losing the pieces. Sorry you couldn't understand and that your sister was not sympathetic maybe after she has to call support for something she will understand.

[Mabelen]

I understand your point. Thick accents in any language, whether due to national or regional origin, social class or education level can hamper communication. I don't find that racist, it's just a fact.

[LauraGB]

I mentioned that my mortgage company out sources and it is VERY difficult to understand a lot of their representatives. They also have a department based in the deep south. I said that when speaking to these divisions I have a hard time hearing them correctly because of thier background noise and their accents.

 

The "deep south"...of America? LOL! I had no idea southerners were their own race! :lol:

 

Not racist at all, imo. You just have difficulty understanding thick accents, and apparently the people to whom you've spoken have the same problem.

[Oakblossoms]

My husband and I had this discussion the other day. I picked up a prescription for an eye ointment for our daughter. They had the pharmacist tell me how to use it first. It must be a requirement. He had a very thick Chinese or Taiwainese accent. I'm not sure. I didn't talk to him very long. I was fine, but my Grandma would have not understood at all. The town I'm living in currently is very white and I don't think a lot of older people would be able to understand him. I don't think that is racist. I'm not going to complain. But, I can imagine that people could get their prescription mixed up because of it. I know they should read labels.

[caitlinsmom]

Okay thanks everyone. I thought she was crazy but the more I tried to explain myself the more it sounded like I was backtracking. I felt like a fool! I didn't think there was anything wrong with it but she sure did. I will just make sure I don't speak to her about these things again.

[caitlinsmom]

The "deep south"...of America? LOL! I had no idea southerners were their own race! :lol:

 

QUOTE]

 

LOL didnt word that quiet right in the OP. :D

[Carrie12345]

I hang up on my husband when he's mumbling. :tongue_smilie:

 

If you can't understand a person, really, what's the point?

[TravelingChris]

I haven't had my hearing testing for at least 9 years. I did have a small hearing loss then but nothing that required treatment or hearing aids. Anyway, while I almost always understand people in person even with thick accents, I can't understand much on the phone, particularly the cell phone, and just forget leaving me a message on a cell phone. Nothing racist about it. I understand my own family better but my daughters who have high voices and my son who mumbles aren't clear that often. I can usually understand dh. I have also gotten very frustrated with computer help lines that are outsourced to India or Philippines. SOmetimes the person is clear speaking, and other times they are not. Particularly difficult for me to understand them if they are female. I am sorry that my hearing loss makes me a sexist in my phone preferences but there it is. Lower toned voices are easier to hear. I don't know that I can do anything about it since it is only a problem with phones.

[angela in ohio]

People often use the word racist without any idea what it means. :glare:

[MorganClassicalPrep]

It doesn't come across as racist to me. I am profoundly hard-of-hearing and have a lot of difficulty on the phone; add an accent to that and it is pretty much impossible for me to understand.

 

:iagree:I have mild to moderate hearing loss, and on top of that almost always have ear infections which makes it even harder for me to hear. I have a really hard time speaking to people with accents, whether on the phone or in person, since I tend to read lips a lot to catch what I'm missing.

 

You didn't say anything about race, so I don't see how that could be racist.

[RoughCollie]

I didn't see a speck of racism in what you wrote.

 

Perhaps your sister is projecting her own racist thoughts onto you.

[Desert Rat]

I have a hard time with accents too. I don't think that makes you racist. There's a lady at taekwondo who is from Tanzania. She called me yesterday and I didn't recognize her, asked her who she was looking for, well, basically made a big fool out of myself. I was very embarassed. I have a very hard time with accents. My dh recently requested a different representative when he called Direct TV. The first number he called sent him to India. When he was redirected he talked to someone in Texas.

Your sister in entitled to her opinion of course, but when dealing with something as frustrating as finances when you are already so stressed, it helps to talk to someone you can understand.

[indigomama]

You did not sound racist at all. One time, I spoke with a phone representative who I had a very difficult time understanding, after asking politely for him to repeat the same sentence FOUR times, I finely asked to speak to someone else. I was transferred , no problem. I bet he was just as excited not to talk to me, since I kept having him repeat himself:)

[PinkInTheBlue]

Another person with severe difficulties understanding accents. I'm a "deep south" girl that really tries to keep the accent within reason. However, when I talk to that race of northerners with strong accents, I'm completely lost. They might as well be speaking Klingon. LOL!! Just joking! ;)

 

I will not even call and order chinese delivery because I can't understand 95% of what they are saying. My husband has to call and do that one.

 

When I call a customer service or such and get a wonderful thick accent, I have to explain slight hearing loss and "please connect me with the manager". When I explain they usually transfer me to what I suppose is a U.S. (or like) back-up office. It often requires decent amounts of "I'm sorry. I still can't understand." I hate it but like the OP said, often these issues are too important to stumble through.

[Debora R]

Nope. No racism from what I can see. Communication is critical. Wanting to understand and be understood isn't racist - it's common sense!

 

I'd be tempted to ask what planet she's currently living on :tongue_smilie:

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Right now in Arizona, the Dept. of Ed. is trying to get rid of teachers with heavy accents. The idea has met with heavy resistance, especially when you compound this policy with the recent immigration law.

 

Arizona Grades Teachers on Fluency

 

Your comments weren't racist.

[hornblower]

I live in a city with a large immigrant population. You CAN get used to understanding a variety of accents and in our city, it is pretty much a requirement. I wonder if because Canada has always stressed multiculturalism more than the 'melting pot', acceptance of accents is perhaps a bit more natural here.

 

As a person from a family with lots of immigrants and lots of people who speak with unusual accents, I feel that they have occasionally been the victims of racism. These are white collar professionals who have passed English proficiency exams for their professions and in the 70's & 80's it was common to get a pretty impatient and almost snarky 'I don't understand your accent' comments.

 

I know many nurses from the Philippines and they too used to get what was essentially harassment from patients. It has changed a lot in the last 15 years here though. Now it's more likely that people recognize your accent (oooh! are you Czech or Polish?) or they just politely ask (so, where are you from originally?).

 

I think folks need to think really hard about what constitutes 'proper' English. EVERYONE has an accent, it's not just something others have.

 

In a different thread, I talked of my disappointment with Dell. I spoke with service reps in the south of the US and in India (this was in 2008 - I've heard since that some US calls don't get routed to India anymore) and the Indian rep was just as easy to understand as the southern dude. They both had strong accents to my ear but I wouldn't say either was difficult to understand. They weren't terribly helpful with my problem but I could understand them :)

 

I do think that sometimes "I can't understand your accent" is code for

"you don't speak like us, & you're not one of us & I don't like you & I wish you'd go away please" I suspect this is what your sister was asking about - though I've never heard of people complaining that much about southern US accents. :confused:

[Alicia64]

She needs to look up the term "knee jerk."

 

I think political correctness is going way overboard these days and a lot of these people -- like your sister -- aren't really thinking.

 

And I say that with my closest friend being from India w/ a very thick accent. I think she and her accent are beautiful, but no, I wouldn't want to interact w/ her on my finances!

 

Alley

[kalanamak]

 

Do I sound racist? I was not specific to any race or ethnicity it was just a broad "anyone I cant understand clearly".

 

No. But something I've learned over the years is that some people have a knack for understanding accents, and some people don't. Those of us who do don't automatically know others don't. I learned by meeting people who literally cannot follow Are You Being Served or any BBC production. Can't! I was shocked. That is an extreme, but maybe your sister can automatically understand everyone.....

:grouphug:

I'm so glad my sister would be to polite too say something so rude.

Edited June 4, 2010 by kalanamak

[Margo out of lurking]

I'd say it's a safe bet that your sister has never lived in the south. Or close to it.

[ElizabethB]

No.

 

I'm pretty good at understanding accents and foreign languages, but when we were in England, my husband had to translate the following for me:

 

"ould oo ike a ighnt or a aff ighnt?" It was all run together, a making it even harder to understand: "ouldooikeaighntoraaffighnt?"

 

When he replied, "She'd like a half pint," I replayed their question and understood in retrospect what they had said, "Would you like a pint or a half pint?"

 

After I got used to the accent, I was fine.

[happyhomemaker25]

I had to find a new dentist for my kids because of a heavy accent. I never understood what she was really saying beyond a few words. I felt bad because she was super nice, but I HAVE to know what's going on with my kids dental work.

I don't think it's racist.

[Irene Lynn]

I live in a city with a large immigrant population. You CAN get used to understanding a variety of accents and in our city, it is pretty much a requirement. I wonder if because Canada has always stressed multiculturalism more than the 'melting pot', acceptance of accents is perhaps a bit more natural here.

 

I might disagree with this. We recently took our daughter for apptitude testing. It showed that she scored very high in the skill required to hear and speak languages. I think I would also score high, but my dh would be rather low. I can understand accents pretty well right off the bat, but my dh is horrible. He can't even hear the difference in the words pin, pan, and pen. I do think that some people are just poorly equipped to understand language that sounds much different from their own sound.

 

I think folks need to think really hard about what constitutes 'proper' English. EVERYONE has an accent, it's not just something others have.

 

LOL! I agree, although I am pretty sure that the way I speak is "right". I know it is not, but I still think it. :)

 

 

I do think that sometimes "I can't understand your accent" is code for

"you don't speak like us, & you're not one of us & I don't like you & I wish you'd go away please" I suspect this is what your sister was asking about - though I've never heard of people complaining that much about southern US accents. :confused:

 

For my dh, I know he means it frustrates him to no end to try to understand someone, he is "supposed" to understand, but can't. It takes a lot of energy for him and he is a perfectionist and is in a situation where he needs to understand and he is no good at it.

 

I agree that it does sometimes mean something more rude.

 

And I have heard complaints about southern accents. There are so many extra syllables. :)

[katemary63]

Nothing racist about that. Apparently she has gone a little overboard with the whole PC thing.

 

:iagree: I can't understand people on the phone who are native speakers of MY language let alone those who are not. I just repeatedly ask for someone who speaks better English. It's not racist, it's not rude, it's just a necessity!

[IsabelC]

I would only consider the remarks you quoted as racist if they were in the context of frequent racist comments, which doesn't seem to be the case with you. I think that finding a person who speaks your language as a first language, and has a similar accent to yours, easier to understand on the phone is normal and natural. (Whether the company in question should only employ local staff or whether the population should get more used to a variety of accents is a different question, and involves more issues than just ease of comprehension.)

[NanceXToo]

Not racist, and I don't really love it when I get someone for any sort of tech support or whatever who has a thick, hard-to-understand accent, either. It makes it more stressful and difficult and I have to keep saying "I'm sorry, what did you say?" and I start feeling awkward about doing that, thinking it must make THEM feel awkward, too, etc.

 

But it has absolutely nothing to do with racism, your sister is being ridiculous.

[3lilreds in NC]

I don't think you're racist. I think your sister needs to... reevaluate her position on racism.

 

I have a dear friend from Australia. I adore her accent. I have some hearing loss and she has a soft voice. It makes for some interesting phone conversations, because I can't always understand her. I'm pretty sure she knows I'm nearly deaf, and she doesn't seem to remind repeating herself, bless her. :D

 

I am from Michigan and like to pretend that I don't have an accent. Sadly, even from other people who don't have southern accents, I get told that I have one. Very few people, for example, hear my last name correctly when I say it. I really don't get it. I have, however, learned to spell it every time I meet someone new.

 

We had a plumber once who had such a strong southern accent that I could not understand a thing he was telling me when he came to fix my shower. I gave up after a while, nodded and "mm-hmm'd" in all the right places, until he asked me directly if I'd understood him. :o Oops. Busted! I had to admit that I hadn't so he repeated himself. I don't think it makes me racist, just clueless and maybe a little lazy - I could have tried harder but he was in the glass-enclosed shower and not looking at me.

 

I have a hard time understanding people who are speaking English with an accent from a tonal language, like Chinese or Vietnamese. I learned this in college, where there were lots of people from Asian countries. It was NOT their fault; I just could not process the tonal quality of their speech and it frustrated me immensely. I felt like a big dork. I did not, however, blame them.

 

It's not like you said, "I had to speak to another one of those southern idiots today" and then followed it up with a comment stereotyping southerners. It's not your fault that their accent was strong or that you can't hear them as well over the phone. I can't "hear" people very well if I don't have my glasses on. Apparently I have learned how to read lips to compensate for my marching band-induced hearing loss. My dh laughs all the time when I say "Hang on, I can't hear you, let me find my glasses."

 

I love to hear different accents. I find them fascinating. I have to be careful not to come across as a weirdo because I LOVE to ask people about their accents, too.

 

All right, my linguistic self and I are going to bed now. :rant:

[Parrothead]

My dh was born and raised in southwest GA. I spent 10 years in SC then 10 years in southwest GA.

 

When I first got to the town dh was raised in I could not understand some of what was spoken. Often times I had to ask someone to spell the word they were trying to get across.

 

Now that we have been away from the south for 8 years I can not understand some of the accent again - especially on the phone. Dh's aunt will call and I have not choice but to ask her to hold so I can get dh to the phone. Thank goodness she has not called when dh was as work.

 

All that is the long way of telling you I've got family I can't understand because of their accent. I do dislike speaking to some of them on the phone because of their accents. Doesn't make me a racist.

[fhjmom]

I live in a city with a large immigrant population. You CAN get used to understanding a variety of accents and in our city, it is pretty much a requirement. I wonder if because Canada has always stressed multiculturalism more than the 'melting pot', acceptance of accents is perhaps a bit more natural here.

 

As a person from a family with lots of immigrants and lots of people who speak with unusual accents, I feel that they have occasionally been the victims of racism. These are white collar professionals who have passed English proficiency exams for their professions and in the 70's & 80's it was common to get a pretty impatient and almost snarky 'I don't understand your accent' comments.

 

I know many nurses from the Philippines and they too used to get what was essentially harassment from patients. It has changed a lot in the last 15 years here though. Now it's more likely that people recognize your accent (oooh! are you Czech or Polish?) or they just politely ask (so, where are you from originally?).

 

I think folks need to think really hard about what constitutes 'proper' English. EVERYONE has an accent, it's not just something others have.

 

In a different thread, I talked of my disappointment with Dell. I spoke with service reps in the south of the US and in India (this was in 2008 - I've heard since that some US calls don't get routed to India anymore) and the Indian rep was just as easy to understand as the southern dude. They both had strong accents to my ear but I wouldn't say either was difficult to understand. They weren't terribly helpful with my problem but I could understand them :)

 

I do think that sometimes "I can't understand your accent" is code for

"you don't speak like us, & you're not one of us & I don't like you & I wish you'd go away please" I suspect this is what your sister was asking about - though I've never heard of people complaining that much about southern US accents. :confused:

 

I *really* hope that you were not directing this at the posters who have hearing loss (actually I disagree with directing it at anyone, but especially those with hearing loss). If you were, I take great offense because NO, I CANNOT LEARN TO UNDERSTAND ACCENTS.

 

Let me explain how the little bit of hearing I have left actually works. I did not loose my hearing until I was in my early thirties. I have a very high capacity for language skills and never had difficulties with accents before my hearing loss. Now, I have no measurable response at all in over 1/3 of the frequencies of speech. What that means is even if a sound were as loud as a jet engine right in my ear, I still would not hear it. With my hearing aids, I have *some* access to speech in the low frequencies. In normal speech, low frequencies contain mostly vowels, which occur in every English word, but most of the meaning is contained in the consonants, which tend to be more high frequencies. I can hear some of the vowels and a few of the consonants, but what allows me to understand the message is the patterns that I can fill in because of my past experience with langauage. Part of that is due to how the preceding and following consonants affect pronunciation of the vowels. It's called closure and I have been told by multiple audiologists, deaf educators, speech paths, etc. that I (and my DD's) are very good at it; in other words, I don't look like my loss. Add to that the formation of words on the lips, and I can speech read enough to fill in other blanks a big chunk of the time, however it is not perfect, plus it is very exhausting. My brain is adept enough at doing this I don't even realize how much I fill-in vs. how much I hear, and believe me, it's a lot of filling-in-the-blanks.

 

People with accents do not form the words on the lips the same way, their vowels are not pronounced the same way, their consonants have a different lilt. You say it is an accent, but it is how their native language affects English pronunciation and since my native language that I learned when I was hearing (English) is my basis for filling-in-the blanks and my imprint of language is different than theirs I can't "learn" how to understand their accent. Never again will I hear enough speech to imprint their pattern of pronunciations on my brain enough to allow my brain to fill-in-the-blanks using that accent. It just isn't going to happen because I can't hear. My brain cannot draw from that experience because it isn't already there and without hearing, it will never have the chance to be there in the future.

[orangearrow]

Anyway, while I almost always understand people in person even with thick accents, I can't understand much on the phone, particularly the cell phone, and just forget leaving me a message on a cell phone. Nothing racist about it.

 

 

:iagree: There have been a few times I've had to call about very important issues and because of my over-the-phone hearing issues, it's bad enough. Add in a thick accent of any variety (or a "mumbler") - and things get even more muddled and I've gotten off the phone in tears and so frustrated and with nothing accomplished except for the loss of 45 minutes (with more to come, since I need to call back at some point to talk with someone else that I can hopefully understand a little bit better).

 

In person, it's not too difficult. I read lips if I can't understand each word. We live in a culturally diverse area (and I love this) and I can understand my neighbors (who are of several different nationalities) if we're face to face. But, over the phone? Forgetaboutit.

 

I also have trouble hearing my children over the phone and usually hand dh the phone. I can understand dh fairly well - but he doesn't mind my asking him to repeat himself a dozen times during our phone conversations. ;) Other people don't like it so much.... :bigear:

 

I do as MANY "serious" things as I can in PERSON and avoid the phone unless it's just absolutely unavoidable.