Very relaxed homeschooling-- what do you think?

[LibraryLover]

I suppose Unschooling can also go here.

 

What are your thoughts when you read/hear about people with 10 yr olds etc who can't read, don't write, and their parents talk about how they don't want to coerce their kids at all; the reason they hs in the first place is so the children don't have to read textbooks or learn about something that doesn't interest them etc.

 

I'll go first. I don't so much worry about the reading, as I do think that when kids are ready, barring a learning disability, they will read. But I do wonder how these children will learn to write clearly enough to be understood without some guidance or practice. The relaxed schoolers/unschoolers I know tend to have nice, bright children, and the parents seem very at ease with the fact the children will learn without being taught, or will ask for instruction when they do want to know something. My kids seem to need the occassional lesson, esp in math or grammar etc.

 

OTOH, I suppose it's true that when kids are ready, or want to go to college, they can learn all they need to know quickly. I know I need practice and have never been one to pick up anything too easily or quickly, even when I want to llearn something.

[melissel]

I'm frankly uncomfortable with unschooling, and could never manage it due to my own personality, but I really think it's the parents' prerogative, so I try to keep my opinions to myself about it. I think the radical "unparenting" part bothers me more than the radical unschooling part, but that's my own personal bias based on some IRL experiences and some experiences I had a board I was a member of before I started hanging out here regularly. I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt when I come across these kinds of issues IRL, because we all make different choices in life, and they're not my kids to parent/teach anyway.

 

That's my .02.

[LaxMom]

My experience has been largely what you described - the children are self-motivated, ask for a "lesson" when they need it, learn skills/information quickly when they need to...

 

That said, I would personally worry myself bald. I have control issues, though.:tongue_smilie:

 

Seriously, I said - waaaaay back 2 years ago - that I would think about unschooling once Bailey could read (and, thus, seek information she wanted)... yeah, not so much. We're still fairly structured and she seems to thrive on the structure, so we're sticking with it.

 

As far as non-"coercion" (and I hate the way that term is used pejoratively by parents who do not feel they should have even minimal expectations of their children), there are many levels. Some families' attitudes of teamwork and coming together as a group really negate the need to specifically require things of the kids. Most of the time, when I hear the "coercion" word thrown around, it's in a context similar to "if my two year old doesn't want to ride in their carseat, then I just call the doctor (or whatever appointment being canceled at the last possible second) and tell them we can't come today... I would never *coerce* my child to sit in the carseat if they didn't want to." Uh-huh. That is usually followed by the claim that, as adults, we do not *have* to do anything... paying taxes and filing returns is done because the individual "chooses" to do so. As opposed to, say, going to prison. :glare:

 

Of course, these are usually the same people who then also claim that Classical homeschooling is elitist and serves no purpose but to further the conservative Christian worldview. :confused: I was under the impression that "elitist" would imply that it is not an option for anyone to choose or reject. And, also, I am not a conservative (or any other form of) Christian. I will take my payment for furthering your worldview in Rice Crispies Treats, thank you.

[BamaTanya]

Initially, it goes against my grain. I think the parents are handicapping their dc if they don't provide a solid foundation for future learning (college or other trade). For instance, I have a couple of relatives who homeschooled and "graduated with honors" -- yet were unable to get into college without remedial courses and probation and then spent several years and thousands of $$$ before dropping out. One because of poor grades and the other because of a true lack of motivation.

 

It would have been kinder if they had made lower grades in homeschool and knew how they really rated. KWIM?

 

OTOH, I am the mother of 2 special needs dc. Some disabilities are not visible to others (though with my dc, spending a little time with them in public would reveal them), and I've learned not to judge what is best for someone else's child. Unless they really are negligent.

 

A few dc, especially gifted ones, may do fine -- even excel -- with unschooling.

 

I can't see it working for me and my family, but I can see where it might for others.

[Jenny in Florida]

I don't so much worry about the reading, as I do think that when kids are ready, barring a learning disability, they will read.

 

Well, you see one of my concerns about this is that I keep hearing about kids who turn out to have LDs that were undiagnosed because the parents just assumed the kids "weren't ready to read yet." Obviously, learning disabilities are present in only a small percentage of the population, but I would worry that I might be setting my child up for failure by not getting interventions at an appropriate time.

 

It's not a risk I would want to take with my child.

 

I think the radical "unparenting" part bothers me more than the radical unschooling part, but that's my own personal bias based on some IRL experiences and some experiences I had a board I was a member of before I started hanging out here regularly.

 

And I agree wholeheartedly with this. I know one or two unschooling families who have children I enjoy being around. So it obviously works for some folks. However, I have met lots of families in which unschooling does mean unparenting. So I tend to be wary of those children.

 

I also have concerns about the non-academic aspects of this educational approach. I know of families who've been unschoolers and then tried to kick things up a notch and found their children were unprepared and unwilling to do so. I worry a bit about how those kids will function down the line.

 

As I said, though, I do know of some familes who identify themselves as unschoolers who have turned out really great kids. It's not an approach that would work for our family, but I can see that it's just fine for some children.

[HappyGrace]

I'm frankly uncomfortable with unschooling, and could never manage it due to my own personality, but I really think it's the parents' prerogative, so I try to keep my opinions to myself about it. I think the radical "unparenting" part bothers me more than the radical unschooling part, but that's my own personal bias based on some IRL experiences......I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt when I come across these kinds of issues IRL, because we all make different choices in life, and they're not my kids to parent/teach anyway.

 

That's my .02.

 

:iagree:

 

I was part of a small group where one of the parents was a radical unschooler, and as the kids are now growing up, the kids of that parent has fallen WAAAAAAAAAAY behind the others academically. Also some people adapt unschooling as part of an "unparenting" style and when I *personally* have seen that aspect, the parent has conflict avoidance issues as the reason behind adapting it. Not saying that's true all the time, just what I've observed generally.

 

I read an article in a radical unschooling magazine (forgot the name) about a yr ago by a radical unschooled kid who's grown now and a lawyer, and he liked some things about it but really felt it did not prepare him for the "real world" where he has deadlines, and timelines, and has to be on a schedule for work. He really felt unschooling had done him a major disservice in that way because he feels resentful when he has to stick to others' time agendas. Also he doesn't have any work ethic for things he doesn't WANT to do, and it's difficult to move past that. It was interesting and telling to see that perspective.

 

I've also been in groups of unschoolers where it's a structured lesson, and if they are not interested in what the "teacher" is talking about, they just rudely wander away, and their parents are okay with that because their kid is doing it because "they don't feel they need that information right now." It's just plain rude to the person who prepared the lesson. I've seen this everywhere from museum tours to library homeschool classes.

 

I personally also think that unschooling may work better for some kids than others. I know my kids would just sit around playing Playmobils all day if they could! I just think that in life there are things we have to do whether we want to or not, and while I don't mind more relaxed schooling when they're younger (and we do that, to an extent), I think just giving them total free reign isn't good. That's my Christian viewpoint and the Bible backs me up on that-Prov 29:15 ".....a child left to himself brings shame to his mother."

Edited December 29, 2008 by HappyGrace

[Chris in VA]

I agree with Melissa, although I'm not as charitable in my heart towards those parents who aren't true unschoolers, but more lazy. I think true unschoolers strew things around, take their kids places, support their childrens' interests, and make sure their everyday lives offer opportunities for learning, even if they are child-led.

 

Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with our anthropological view of humanity.

 

I don't agree with the idea that children know what they need. I think a child who is not taught to read until they express interest can miss out on an awful lot. Are they actually going to go back and read the books that are written for younger kids when they are 12 and just learning? Of course, many, many kids who are unschooled learn to read way before that--I think the "won't read before 12 if you don't teach them" is really a myth. But just how many are clamoring to learn how to diagram a sentence, or do literary analysis, which are not immediately useful, but building blocks that lead to greater knowledge? Those types of skills seem to be lacking in many kids who get to choose exactly what they want to learn, and when.

 

I have seen that some kids are indulged by parents who, with the good intention of not "killing the love for learning," actually set up their kid's lives so that they don't have to learn certain things, doing those things for their kids. Sort of a co-dependent thing.

 

I liked Drew's article in the Memoria Press catty (I think it was there) that talked about being child-led in some areas and more direct-teacher-ish (lack of vocab showing here!) in others.

 

I'm relaxed in some ways, rigorous/teacher-led in others. It is up to the parent, but I'm not comfortable with what passes as unschooling. Plus, I like a more systematic approach, skill upon skill. That's why unit studies drive me nuts, too.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Chris in VA

[DB in NJ]

I suppose Unschooling can also go here.

 

What are your thoughts when you read/hear about people with 10 yr olds etc who can't read, don't write, and their parents talk about how they don't want to coerce their kids at all; the reason they hs in the first place is so the children don't have to read textbooks or learn about something that doesn't interest them etc.

 

 

 

If I'm being honest (a'la Simon Cowell), it makes me hyperventilate.

 

I sit up at night making buttons over whether my children will be prepared for life. Have I messed them up? Am I missing something? Am I doing enough? Can they write well enough? do they know their math?!?! Should I really just be using Sonlight for reading and not a reading text/program with workbooks and questions and tests?!?! ACK!!!

 

Granted, these "relaxed/unschooling" mothers are much more at ease than I. Granted, they probably sleep better too. But what of their children? The answer to your question -- for me -- is that they are doing their children a disservice, and their children will ultimately be the ones to pay for it.

 

This reminds me of my own sister. When my niece was an itty bitty thing, she was sitting on my mother's lap, admiring the buttons on her Nana's shirt. Said niece pointed at one button in particular, and Nana said, "blue....can you say blue?!" To which my sister replied, "Uh, no. We don't do that." Nana, "Do what??" Sister, "We don't force her to say anything. She'll speak and ask questions when she's ready. Please don't tell her what colors are or ask her to say their names." :blink:

 

The result? Said niece is now 13 years old. Thirteen years of "relaxed" teaching (i.e. no teaching) has resulted in a girl who is 13 years old and never has eaten a vegetable, a piece of fruit, or meat. Granted, she had ONE bite of chicken last year at Christmas. That's the extent of it. The girl has never been forced to do that which she isn't "naturally inclined" to do. She wears mismatched clothing because it's "comfortable" and drinks apple juicce out of a sippy cup.

 

Like I said, it's a disservice.

 

DISCLAIMER: I realize my niece and sister are not indicative of relaxed/unschooling families everywhere. This is my own personal experience with such a situation. YMMV :D

[AnnetteB]

I think my kids would choose to major in Legos and computer games if left to make their own curriculum choices. Just like they would eat candy at breakfast, lunch, and dinner if we didn't serve up some sort of balanced meal. I enjoy teaching them phonics, math, and presenting it all in a meaningful progression. If we were playing a word association game IMO unschooling = lazy, irresponsible, unprepared for adulthood

 

please don't shoot me

 

The kids were just reading this and said that I should have said that they have asked to be taught to read when the are 4 -5 yos. They can't imagine not being taught!

Edited December 29, 2008 by AnnetteB
my dc say I have to add that they would, "ask for schooling"

[Pamela H in Texas]

My main thought is that there is a difference in being relaxed homeschoolers or unschoolers and NON-schooling. It is the latter I see more of. I also see plenty of non-parenting, but that seems the case across the schooling options board.

 

ALSO, non-coercive parenting is NOT necessarily a part of relaxed or unschooling.

[PrairieAir]

I feel it's neglecting your responsibilities as a parent and educator to have a child who, at 10yo, still cannot read when it is due only to lack of teaching and not some sort of disability or extraordinary circumstances.

 

When I was in high school, we had a friend of the family who was divorced whose wife had custody of their two children and was claiming to homeschool them. When they came to visit their dad for the summer, he found that neither of them could read (4th and 5th grades) and that they typically did nothing for school. This was what the kids said. When confronted, the mom tried to defend what sounded purely like laziness on her part. The kids were upset by the circumstances. They wanted to be learning. The dad quickly got custody of the kids, put them in public school, and, being eager to learn, they caught up. The kids were so thankful to be with their dad and be in an environment where they were not only allowed but expected to learn.

 

I find situations like that incredibly sad, no matter how rare they may be. As to how rare they are, I don't know. A homeschooling friend from Kentucky who also has a teaching degree and tutors and teaches at several homeschool co-ops in her area says that she is continually surprised by what some call "homeschooling". Sometimes the only instruction some kids in her classes or that she tutors are getting is once a week with her and the parents complain that the work is too hard when she has already brought it down several grade levels. I can't say I've seen any of that here, though there have been a few families I've wondered about.

 

All that is not to say that I'm opposed to unschooling. Unschooling (and relaxed homeschooling) is, from what I understand, NOT the same as what these parents are doing, which is simply not schooling at all. I actually like a lot of the ideas and methods employed by the unschoolers I've heard about. Someone could call themselves a classical homeschooler and be entirely neglecting their children's educations as much as someone calling themselves a relaxed homeschooler or unschooler could.

[PrairieAir]

The result? Said niece is now 13 years old. Thirteen years of "relaxed" teaching (i.e. no teaching) has resulted in a girl who is 13 years old and never has eaten a vegetable, a piece of fruit, or meat. Granted, she had ONE bite of chicken last year at Christmas. That's the extent of it. The girl has never been forced to do that which she isn't "naturally inclined" to do. She wears mismatched clothing because it's "comfortable" and drinks apple juicce out of a sippy cup.

 

 

What does the child eat? How can she have survived to 13 with no vegetables, fruit, or meat? I would think she'd be a very frail, sickly child. How does she get enough vitamins and protein? Is it all through supplements? Does she eat only grains? This sounds like neglect to me.

[Ellie]

Very relaxed/unschooler here. Both of my dc began taking classes at the community college when they were 14. We had never finished a math book. One dd had finished Easy Grammar. One was in Mary Harrington's "beta" Latin class. Both dds were honor roll students.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I know one "child-led" homeschooler who is doing a great job with her kids. But she is also still very actively involved. She doesn't coerce but she coaxes. She told me that she considers herself to have failed if she doesn't make something interesting enough to entice the children to participate. Her children (who are the same ages as mine) are tracking mine in academic achievement. Of course I don't sit down and compare the 2 groups of children on their grammar skills, math facts etc. so this is an observation based on the books they have lying around and their general conversation of what they are doing. There are also papers and posters up on the walls at their house so I do see those.

 

The one negative that I've noticed (and if you have a different perspective from me then you might see it as a positive) is that I have to simply quietly tell my children that we are going to do something and they will do it as a matter of course. She has to hype it up and sometimes practically beg the kids to do it. They do many things because they want to please her (as my kids do too).

[Plucky]

I'm pretty relaxed with elementary. We do an hour a day per grade and try to not go over 4-5 hours unless we are doing a huge, fun project. I think different people define relaxed differently. I'm not into schooling a 1st grader all day. That is my definition of relaxed. It's a whole different ball of wax when they hit middle school/high school.

[Carol in Cal.]

They were the ones who were passionately interested in one thing or another, and whose parents avidly supported their passions and cleverly connected them with skills.

 

OTOH, you have to know your own child. It's not, I am convinced, a philosophy that will work with every kid. And most unschoolers would debate me on that--saying that if you wait long enough, every child will choose to learn. Well, baloney. I have one that would never have chosen to learn to read. She would have chosen to decide that she was too dumb to learn it before she would have put out the effort and done it on her own. I could not let her decide that, so I taught her to read. Same for all of her other skills. As far as content, that's another story. This kid has an affinity for content that is outstanding. So I give her a lot more leeway in history, science, and other content areas. But as far as skills are concerned, nope, wouldn't have happened without major psychic damage that I would be remiss as a parent if I allowed it to happen.

[Michelle T]

I think it is a disservice to the child.

 

Eventually, they will grow up and away from home. I don't think too many employers are going to be willing to wait until that child is "interested" in doing their job requirements, or patient with an employee who does what they want, when they want.

 

Eventually, they will have a family and home. Family/home life is FILLED with things that are uninteresting, unrewarding, and unappreciated, yet must be done on time, whether one is interested or not. Babies must be fed and clothed. Dogs must be walked, laundry must be done.

 

I consider development of a work ethic in DS as one of the most important jobs I have. Life is filled with tasks that I don't really want to do, but must. It's a lot better if I do them on time, and with a reasonably good attitude. I want DS to understand this, and I don't think a childhood built around "you do what you want, when you want" is the best base for that attitude.

 

Yes, I am sure there are plenty of unschoolers who do turn out with a good work ethic, and go on to lead great lives. I'm guessing they are the minority though, and that a large percentage turn out as slackers.

Michelle T

[LisaKinVA]

I couldn't do it. Nor do I know anyone who has done this successfully (but that is only my experience).

 

I believe there can and should be a balance between "making" a child do something within a deadline, and allowing a child to follow their interests. I don't know a single child who "enjoys" copy work, but we value it as an important part of their training. However, we also limit it to the actual abilities of the individual child -- but neither do I "punish" a child who has exceptional fine motor skills with additional copywork beyond the average expectation for their age.

[lionfamily1999]

As another poster said, there is a difference between unschooling and non schooling. The homeschool group I belong to consists mainly of unschoolers. All of the children are reading and thriving and obviously very smart. The parents don't sit down with a formal curriculum, but they are constantly on the go, at the library, learning learning learning. I actually think their lifestyle is more exausting than mine with the planning and curriculum!

:iagree:Unschooling, when done well, looks incredibly exhausting! It is my understanding that it puts MORE on the parents than regular hs. Rather than doing the easy thing (today we're learning blablabla), unschooling parents have the responsibility to MAKE their children interested and WANT to learn. IOW, the unschooling parents I know, and those being discussed on this board, are not unschooling in the traditional sense (oxymoron, right, but YKWIM). They are just using it as an excuse to let their children's mind and potential languish while they do whatever it is they do.

[lionfamily1999]

Very relaxed/unschooler here. Both of my dc began taking classes at the community college when they were 14. We had never finished a math book. One dd had finished Easy Grammar. One was in Mary Harrington's "beta" Latin class. Both dds were honor roll students.

But YOU put a lot of effort into creating an atmosphere where learning happened without obvious coercion, right? Fun trips, interesting projects, etc.

 

My guess is, you have to be incredibly proactive for unschooling to work. Not to mention, creative, resourceful, and ALWAYS ON.

 

I couldn't do it. Why? Because, I do not have the patience, creativity, or money to make everything my son learns, something he would choose to learn.

[LibraryLover]

Thank you for keeping this thread so generous towards different philosophies. I don't want to criticize anyone; I am just very curious. I would say we are on the unsing spectrum, but not radical or fully. Admittedly, I have taught my children things-- like grammar, algebra etc., that they have not asked for, specifically. I do think layering info, offering in a systematic way is helpful for some children. So I do that in the most respectful way I can.
 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2013 by LibraryLover

[lighthouseacademy]

Mostly I think it doesn't work because most parents who I come in contact with that are unschooling don't do anything. However, I do know one lady who does unschool, partly because of her health issues. She has 3 kids but they are all essentially only children (10-15 year spreads). Her middle child is now in college and doing well. They would get a museum pass and wear it out and then move on to the next museum. They spent many hours discussing life and the world around them. They read many books, and played many video games (mom vs. boy) but they TALKED and read. She was always on even if she wasn't planning lessons.

 

I consider myself a classical unschooler in the sense that we follow the classical model until something strikes my son's fancy and then I let him run with it until he is bored. For example, we visited a museum exhibit of the Titanic artifacts. He, at 5 1/2 spent two hours combing through the exhibit with his father. Then, when he got home, he read every book he could find on the Titanic. He drew pictures of it, compared it to things he knew (how many elephants long was it, how many horses to pull it, etc) and we made an iceberg in the sink to see how it floats. He lived and breathed the Titanic and that love was a place I was able to wiggle in chapter books for him- he had been afraid of chapter books even though his reading ability was there. However, there was a Magic Treehouse Titanic topic book and he wanted to read it so he jumped into chapter books and hasn't looked back. So, I can see how unschooling, done right, can work, but I choose to take a more proactive approach unless there is something that has created fanatical attention. Even during our unschooling breaks, we still do math and copywork and spelling.

[Penelope]

I think with a very involved parent and only 1 or 2 children with certain personalities, it could work. Personally I think I would have done well unschooled as a kid. I was not challenged much through school until high school when I could take honors and AP classes, but was quite self-motivated and challenged myself outside of school.

 

But I think unschooling can be really limiting. I completely disagree with those who do no active teaching of reading or math, for example. I have also observed that people seem to have different definitions of unschooling. I know unschoolers who say they unschool but require a minimum amount of work in certain subjects. :confused: Online, it seems like there are many "unschooling" 3 and 4 year olds. :tongue_smilie: Or people with only one child who then assume it can work for everybody.

 

I am not surprised at the majority opinion on this thread, considering his board was created for those following a rigorous, college-prep curriculum. Not to say that unschooling parents don't have college as a goal for their kids. But the few unschoolers I have met seemed to be more relaxed about future prospects, such as one family whose goal for graduation was to learn enough to pass the GED (not talking about children with disabilities, either). I want my kids to have the foundation to do anything they want inclyding any type of higher learning.

[bumbledeb]

Of course, these are usually the same people who then also claim that Classical homeschooling is elitist and serves no purpose but to further the conservative Christian worldview. :confused: I was under the impression that "elitist" would imply that it is not an option for anyone to choose or reject. And, also, I am not a conservative (or any other form of) Christian. I will take my payment for furthering your worldview in Rice Crispies Treats, thank you.

 

:lol: I'm a conservative Christian, non-coercive, Classically Educating, former unschooler.

 

I just asked my children if they'd like to go back to unschooling and they all said "No."

 

Don't get me wrong, if it's done right, as some here have described it, I'm sure it's wonderful and everything turns out fine. But it hasn't worked for us and my children are delighted to be following quite a rigorous educational schedule now, closely based on TWTM.

 

I don't think non-coercive means non-parenting, or unparenting. I think it means a lot of hard work from the parent and a lot of close attention.

[Erica in PA]

I suppose Unschooling can also go here.

 

What are your thoughts when you read/hear about people with 10 yr olds etc who can't read, don't write, and their parents talk about how they don't want to coerce their kids at all; the reason they hs in the first place is so the children don't have to read textbooks or learn about something that doesn't interest them etc.

 

I'll go first. I don't so much worry about the reading, as I do think that when kids are ready, barring a learning disability, they will read. But I do wonder how these children will learn to write clearly enough to be understood without some guidance or practice. The relaxed schoolers/unschoolers I know tend to have nice, bright children, and the parents seem very at ease with the fact the children will learn without being taught, or will ask for instruction when they do want to know something. My kids seem to need the occassional lesson, esp in math or grammar etc.

 

OTOH, I suppose it's true that when kids are ready, or want to go to college, they can learn all they need to know quickly. I know I need practice and have never been one to pick up anything too easily or quickly, even when I want to llearn something.

 

If I had a healthy, intelligent child who was 10 years old and couldn't read or write, and of course had no learning disabilities, I would feel that I had failed them academically, no matter what methods I chose.

[Ellie]

But YOU put a lot of effort into creating an atmosphere where learning happened without obvious coercion, right? Fun trips, interesting projects, etc.

 

My guess is, you have to be incredibly proactive for unschooling to work. Not to mention, creative, resourceful, and ALWAYS ON.

 

I couldn't do it. Why? Because, I do not have the patience, creativity, or money to make everything my son learns, something he would choose to learn.

Um, well, no, not really. We just lived life. I did take us to the library weekly, and on a field trip weekly, but those were mainly to get *me* out of the house, lol.

 

So, no, I would never refer to myself as creative, resourceful, or always on. I did not focus my life on getting my dc to learn things. What you're proposing is not unschooling. Unschooling is living life and involving your dc in it, not hovering over the children hoping to find something they'll be interested in so we can focus on that, or covertly guiding the children into learning things that we think they "should" be learning.

[Mommy22alyns]

I view unschooling/super relaxed homeschooling as something like doing acrobatics on a tightrope. Pretty cool, and it can get great results, but not something I should just jump in and try. :001_smile:

[Caroline]

In college I roomed with a girl who had been unschooled. She taught me about going to the source, pursuing information about anything, looking for answers on my own, and all sorts of cool stuff. She is amazing, and unschooling her own kids.

[lulubelle]

I think my goal for my kids is to give them a great education along with great relationship, a sense of belonging, and exploring personal interests. I do not unschool. I have only met one unschooler and 2 of her children are in art school. My question was whether or not they missed out on exploring their full potential. I think, as others have posted, it is crucial to get to know your individual child. I think Discover Your Child's Learning Style is a great resource. As in most things in life there needs to be more of a balance, which is hard to do. We naturally swing from one extreme to the other. As a teacher/mother, I don't want to be a tyrant or absent.

[melissel]

I don't think non-coercive means non-parenting, or unparenting. I think it means a lot of hard work from the parent and a lot of close attention.

 

ALSO, non-coercive parenting is NOT necessarily a part of relaxed or unschooling.

 

I totally agree with you both, but I'm thinking more along the lines of people who consciously do not prevent their children from hurting other children or the family pets, or whose kids fall down the stairs because they won't put up baby gates (yes, I actually know at least one person whose middle child fell down the stairs repeatedly for this reason), or who allow their kids to generally be disrespectful to others in the name of non-coercion. My experience with this mindset is that there's a subset of unschoolers who won't put any limits at all on their children, in spite of what it means for others around them, and I just can't get behind that. I didn't really mean that all unschoolers are inherently lazy parents or anything along those lines. I'm thinking of a specific group of people, who are inevitably unschoolers because to school any other way would involve some form of coercion.

[DB in NJ]

What does the child eat? How can she have survived to 13 with no vegetables, fruit, or meat? I would think she'd be a very frail, sickly child. How does she get enough vitamins and protein? Is it all through supplements? Does she eat only grains? This sounds like neglect to me.

 

 

The food she eats consists of:

 

apple juice (from said sippy cup)

rolls (like kaiser, but only the inside, never the crust)

goldfish crackers

french fries

go-gurt (rarely)

pizza with no sauce, just crust & cheese (but not "White" pizza)

cinnamon swirl biscuits (special Christmas breakfast)

pancakes with whipped cream (no butter, no syrup, no meat on the side)

 

That's it.

 

She is weak physically, with no muscle tone. She is about 2 - 3 years behind developmentally. My sister has done "research" online and has labeled my niece as being on the autism spectrum, with high-functioning aspergers. She's never seen a doctor for it. Ever.

 

don't get me started.... :glare:

[AuntieM]

One of the best home schooling parents I ever met was an unschooler. She provided a *RICH* environment for her student, in which he had lots of things to choose from in pursuing his interests. They did tons of field trips, tons of read alouds, and she was an interesting, interested, energetic person herself. A wonderful learning environment, in my opinion. And a huge effort on the part of the teacher.

 

That said, she is the only self-admitted unschooler I have ever met that I would consider successful at that method. I have met at least a half-dozen other unschooling families who have truly just let their kids go with no effort to tempt them into pursuing interests or learning of any type, short of what it takes to turn on some technology or build legos.

 

If we are being totally honest here, the homeschoolers I have met that call themselves unschoolers - aside from the first gal I met and mentioned - are in a great position to give the rest of us diligent homeschoolers a really bad name. Okay, lob your tomatoes, but I believe it. It makes me sad to think that many a person's only exposure to homeschooling will come via one of these negligent (IMO) families.

 

I can be a relaxed homeschooler. But to be an unschooler like the majority of those I've met, well, that would be self-indulgent, in that I wouldn't have to go to any effort to see that my kids received an education. I see it as the parent/teacher neglecting responsibility with the kids reaping all the consequences.

 

Now, back to the first gal, if all unschoolers were like that, well, then everyone should unschool! But I personally believe that the most successful unschooling parents have to work even harder than the rest of us to provide a menu of opportunities to entice their children to want to learn the things they will need to learn well in order to make it in the "real" world. Kudos to you if you are reading this and are such a parent! But I will stick to my own more structured methods, which I believe provide my kids with the education to which they are entitled.

Edited December 29, 2008 by AuntieM

[mycalling]

I have never met an unschooler IRL, but on a board I frequent elsewhere there are a lot of unschoolers. I see them as giving laziness a fancy title. I agree with another poster, most have one child or are Unschooling 3 and 4 year olds. I don't see it working for most as far as skill subjects. I think "strewing" would work well for most content subjects though.

[Tree House Academy]

I couldn't personally do it that way. As one other poster said, I have control issues. I run my homeschool more like "school" than unschool and we take it very seriously.

[Jumping In Puddles]

What does the child eat? How can she have survived to 13 with no vegetables, fruit, or meat? I would think she'd be a very frail, sickly child. How does she get enough vitamins and protein? Is it all through supplements? Does she eat only grains? This sounds like neglect to me.

 

I think you would be shocked by what people feed their children! I know someone who's kid WILL ONLY EAT: macaroni and cheese, yogurt, chicken nuggets, sugary cereal, chips/crackers for snacks. :eek: She says it is all he will eat :confused:

[Pamela H in Texas]

I'm thinking more along the lines of people who consciously do not prevent their children from hurting other children or the family pets, or whose kids fall down the stairs because they won't put up baby gates (yes, I actually know at least one person whose middle child fell down the stairs repeatedly for this reason), or who allow their kids to generally be disrespectful to others in the name of non-coercion.

 

I completely disagree with non-coercive parenting (sorry Deb).

 

Though I give my kids TONS more freedom than other kids get, though I am WAY milder and gentler and non-punitive than most parents, I consider parenting my job and that includes preventing, guiding, teaching, correcting, etc. There is NO way I could parent without ANY of those things. I can do it all day long with no punishment, but no DISCIPLINE at all? no way. And the scriptures ARE coercive and require parents to be. Simply, we're to follow Jesus' footsteps closely and HE was coercive! LOL

 

My guess is that many people who claim non-coercive parenting are maybe more relaxed about discipline (I most certainly am not that) and try to stick to positive discipline for what they do otherwise. But true non-coercive parenting is inappropriate imo. I LOVED the articles I read about it. I loved the basic ideas even. However, at some point, a parent MUST, imo, put their foot down on some issues, have values to inculcate, want/need something done, etc. I cannot imagine going all through a childhood and a kid being completely in control of himself (and having equal, even SUPERIOR, say in the family to the point that one mother was told to wear Depends out shopping if the kid didn't want to go into a public restroom).

 

Nope...I'm going to the restroom (and little will have to walk in their with me). Kids will go to the doctor. Kids will ride in carseats. Kids will mind. I will teach them thinking and problem solving skills. I will require them to use them. There will be no disrespect or abuse of others (people, property or animals).

 

Unfortunately, we're all imperfect. There will be a time when we're not and kids aren't. No doubt, my mind will change somewhat then. But as long as we're all imperfect, children must be helped, guided, taught, corrected.

 

All this but I think unschooling and extremely relaxed schooling are fine choices. It worked well for us for years.

Edited December 29, 2008 by 2J5M9K

[dragons in the flower bed]

He really felt unschooling had done him a major disservice in that way because he feels resentful when he has to stick to others' time agendas. Also he doesn't have any work ethic for things he doesn't WANT to do, and it's difficult to move past that.

 

Naturally, my experience was the opposite! I hated assignments with deadlines when I was in school (from age 5-13). I simply didn't do them. While unschooling (13+), I set my own timelines for projects. I set them carefully and thoughtfully, thus was frustrated beyond measure when others didn't cooperate and held up or sabotaged my projects. This experience helped me to understand the frustration of my employers when co-workers didn't get things done.

[dragons in the flower bed]

What does the child eat? How can she have survived to 13 with no vegetables, fruit, or meat? I would think she'd be a very frail, sickly child. How does she get enough vitamins and protein? Is it all through supplements? Does she eat only grains? This sounds like neglect to me.

 

I know a child like this too, a young cousin. He eats only french fries, pasta and gummy vitamins. He's skinny and he has behavior problems, but no specialist anywhere in the NYC area has been able to get him to eat. He starves to the point of passing out when he is forbidden access to those two foods. I remember trying to feed him formula when he was tiny. He tried every type we could find in any local store, then got a prescription, but he was still hardly eating anything and throwing up what we gave him. (His mom and my dad both lived with our grandmother.) We were so desperate we took a recipe from a Scientologist book someone gave us! He didn't eat that either. I don't know how he survived.

[dragons in the flower bed]

What are your thoughts when you read/hear about people with 10 yr olds etc who can't read, don't write, and their parents talk about how they don't want to coerce their kids at all; the reason they hs in the first place is so the children don't have to read textbooks or learn about something that doesn't interest them etc.

 

When I hear about a situation like that, I hope that those parents know their children well enough to discern between a child who will read at the right time, and a child who has some issue that's keeping him from reading. I've met and talked personally with grown homeschooled and unschooled kids who did not read until age ten. They learned between age nine and thirteen, and usually were reading Huckleberry Finn in a year or two. They had engaged, thoughtful, perceptive parents, who constantly talked to them and read aloud to them; thus, their vocabulary and other language skills were growing all those years despite their not having yet figured out decoding.

 

I imagine that sometimes children are not reading for unhealthy reasons. A year ago, my just-turned-five-year-old used to go around the house insisting that he'd never read, that he just wasn't a reader, destroying books, crying and assaulting his brother when he'd read to him. I figured that was an unhealthy resistance, and I made him do phonics lessons, even though I knew a lot of kids would simply be too immature to handle it at that age (and even though I believe that it is fine for kids to not read until seven or eight). He'll be six in a month. This morning just picked up a Warriors book, turned to a random page, and starting sounding out sentences. My instincts were right; he was intimidated, and choosing not to read out of fear.

 

So, I think unschooling is like training a padawan to use the Force. The child needs to be unrestricted by fear and anger, and the adult needs to already be intuitively connected and very observant.

 

I'm not an unschooler because I need to reserve the right to push my kids past unnecessary boundaries, there's just too much fun learning I want to do with them, and, sadly, I'm too much of a flake to arrange on the spot learning opportunities that reflect their interests and needs at the moment.

Edited December 29, 2008 by dragons in the flower bed

[bumbledeb]

I completely disagree with non-coercive parenting (sorry Deb).

 

Though I give my kids TONS more freedom than other kids get, though I am WAY milder and gentler and non-punitive than most parents, I consider parenting my job and that includes preventing, guiding, teaching, correcting, etc. There is NO way I could parent without ANY of those things. I can do it all day long with no punishment, but no DISCIPLINE at all? no way. And the scriptures ARE coercive and require parents to be. Simply, we're to follow Jesus' footsteps closely and HE was coercive! LOL

 

My guess is that many people who claim non-coercive parenting are maybe more relaxed about discipline (I most certainly am not that) and try to stick to positive discipline for what they do otherwise. But true non-coercive parenting is inappropriate imo. I LOVED the articles I read about it. I loved the basic ideas even. However, at some point, a parent MUST, imo, put their foot down on some issues, have values to inculcate, want/need something done, etc. I cannot imagine going all through a childhood and a kid being completely in control of himself (and having equal, even SUPERIOR, say in the family to the point that one mother was told to wear Depends out shopping if the kid didn't want to go into a public restroom).

 

Nope...I'm going to the restroom (and little will have to walk in their with me). Kids will go to the doctor. Kids will ride in carseats. Kids will mind. I will teach them thinking and problem solving skills. I will require them to use them. There will be no disrespect or abuse of others (people, property or animals).

 

Unfortunately, we're all imperfect. There will be a time when we're not and kids aren't. No doubt, my mind will change somewhat then. But as long as we're all imperfect, children must be helped, guided, taught, corrected.

 

All this but I think unschooling and extremely relaxed schooling are fine choices. It worked well for us for years.

 

The kind of non-coercive parenting you are describing (and in my view, quite rightly objecting to) is not what I practice. Maybe I shouldn't claim to be non-coercive if that's the kind of behaviour it brings to mind. I say I'm non-coercive because I don't use coercion to get my kids to do what I want them to, not because I'm signed up to any group or recognized philosophy.

 

If we were out and I needed to use a restroom, I'd just say I need to go and I'd go. I can't even begin to imagine a situation where my child would object to that.

 

I completely agree that children must be helped, guided, taught, and yes, corrected. Not only because of imperfection but also because of inexperience, lack of knowledge, lack of maturity etc.

 

I've tried explaining it this way: I think my child should be allowed to do what he/she wants. It's my job to make sure that he/she wants to do what's right. Not by coercion, but by persuasion, reason, and having right on my side. (After making absolutely sure that right IS on my side, being open-minded enough to consider that it might not be.)

 

I don't think Jesus was coercive. I may be missing something (I often am), or perhaps we are using different definitions of the word coercive but I think Jesus drew his followers after him by the persuasive (and right) power of his teaching.

 

I don't think a parent has to coerce a child to persuade the child that the command to be obedient to parents is a direct command from God to the child. Not a command to the parent exact obedience, but to the child to give it.

 

My children are not exceptional, they are just as imperfect as anyone else. They don't all have naturally compliant natures. But they do obey me and show respect for others and display good manners generally behave very nicely.

[dawn of ns]

I don't know. Every group has it's dunces. Yes, some people who claim to unschool are lazy or spineless but there are classical HSers or formal types who are controling and unbending who do as much harm to their kids as the aforementioned "unschoolers". Saying, "unschooling can be wonderful but then there are these people who...", is as useful as saying, "formal HSing can be good but there are those peolple who..."

 

I was a radical unschooler until my oldest was about 8. At that point I wasn't as plugged in as I had been. I was drifting and couldn't honestly claim to be unschooling anymore. We started curriculum and it's been a good change for us but I don't see it as better in any real sense. Just different which was what we needed.

 

There are awful homeschoolers in every style. I don't see the point in attributing any of their awfulness to the style they choose. Whatever educational choice they made they'd likely be equally awful because the problems are rooted in their personalities and parenting styles, not their homeschooling styles.

Edited December 30, 2008 by dawn of ns

[jamnkats]

Well, we unschool and we don't coerce. I see a lot of fear in the posts and a lot of need for control. I'm lucky in that I really don't need to control anyone or anything. My husband is struggling with that but he is getting better at giving up control.

 

I think some people are equating non-coercion with child dictator (from the posts I've read) and I'd just have to say that no-one gets to dictate in our family. :) We strive to live consentually - where ALL needs matter.

 

I'm not sure what else to say; it seems like you're enjoying your opportunity to ruminate on how neglectful the unschoolers are and really, who am I to stop you. :) I've seen others point out in this thread that a 10 year old not reading does not necessarily connote neglect (and it certainly wasn't with my 12yo who started reading at 10) and others stick up for unschooling so I'm not really needing to fly the unschooling banner; just wanted to let you all know that an unschooling, non-coercive parent can be involved, caring, worried (that they aren't doing enough), and love and want just as much for her kids as you do for yours - we just go about it differently. :)

[chaik76]

We hover between relaxed and structured (and relaxed is significantly different from radical unschooling). Math and Phonics/Reading are structured, every day things, as is reading.

 

Right now I'm very relaxed about the other subjects...because I. has a thirst for learning and wants to know about everything. So it works out for me for many subjects to be more child-led. But he's motivated. If I had an unmotivated student, I don't think I would do this.

[mcconnellboys]

I agree. True unschooling involves living a learning lifestyle yourself in order to model it to your children. You must surround yourself with good, better and best choices so that no matter what sorts of activities they choose, they're sure to be something worthwhile. When I first read Holt, I could see how they were perfect unschooling parents; but I can't imagine myself being able to challenge my children on a regular basis living where I currently live. I just don't have the resources to offer them. I think I'd be totally exhausted in a month just trying to unschool - and I think I'd do a horrible job of it.

 

It quite frankly makes me very uncomfortable to see kids getting to be 10, 11, 12 years old without some basic skills in place. It makes me even more uncomfortable when they're being allowed to watch tv and play video games instead of learning some of these basic skills on a daily basis.... Now, if I saw a boy with poor penmanship skills who could program computers like nobody's business, etc., then that would be a different matter, but I think a lot of us know folks who have kids who are just not really doing school - or learning - of any viable sort.

 

Can these kids who can't read instead run the family farm, mend their clothes, wash clothing and dishes, clean the house - or are they running some sort of business of their own they've set up, etc.? In other words, are they really learning, but in perhaps a more practical than book sense? Are they progressing in learning skills of some sort, even if not traditional? If so, then I'd find that as valuable as a traditional course of education, but I've not seen that be so in my personal realm of experience....

[5Youngs]

I think my kids would choose to major in Legos and computer games if left to make their own curriculum choices. Just like they would eat candy at breakfast, lunch, and dinner if we didn't serve up some sort of balanced meal. I enjoy teaching them phonics, math, and presenting it all in a meaningful progression. If we were playing a word association game IMO unschooling = lazy, irresponsible, unprepared for adulthood

 

please don't shoot me

 

The kids were just reading this and said that I should have said that they have asked to be taught to read when the are 4 -5 yos. They can't imagine not being taught!

 

Bravo~

Introducin challenge causes my boys to rise to the occasion.

Every time.......

 

We had family friends that homeschooled when I was a kid.

Homeschool consisted of them taking their workbooks into their rooms and doing whatever they felt like that day. They were all horribly behind in their education. It was very sad. This is the only experience that I had with homeschooling as a child. My homeschool is NOT like this.

[WTMindy]

It works for some, but I'm uncomfortable with it. In my experience, it works well when the parents really value learning and reading and model it for their kids. I know one family who has homeschooled four very lovely daughters and the youngest is in 8th grade now. All four were basically left to their own education, but provided many wonderful things, and they have all gone to early college and are huge readers and do great with writing. The 8th grader is taking my pre-algebra class and doing very well although she never really did much formal math before this. She chose to take the class. So, I know it can work.

 

I'm still uncomfortable with it.

[Joanne]

I've personally seen the unschooling community become co-opted by very active, vocal and prolific group of non coercive parenting families. When I first started reading about unschooling, it was represented mostly by parents who embraced a full, rich life of activity, business, zoo/museum memberships, home businesses, etc.

 

In the last near decade, the unschooling community has changed in ways that I can't automatically support anymore.

 

I do, however, the ideas in Mary Hood's books about relaxed schooling. And the "sit and read" ideas of the Clarksons.

 

I am, personally, more structured and formal than those.

[Lovedtodeath]

That's my Christian viewpoint and the Bible backs me up on that-Prov 29:15 ".....a child left to himself brings shame to his mother."

 

Wonderful! That helps me with my thoughts on unschooling!!

 

I agree with Melissa, although I'm not as charitable in my heart towards those parents who aren't true unschoolers, but more lazy. I think true unschoolers strew things around, take their kids places, support their childrens' interests, and make sure their everyday lives offer opportunities for learning, even if they are child-led.

 

I have known many of these, unfortunately. They give the true unschoolers a bad name.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Lovedtodeath

[Heather in Neverland]

I think my kids would choose to major in Legos and computer games if left to make their own curriculum choices. Just like they would eat candy at breakfast, lunch, and dinner if we didn't serve up some sort of balanced meal.

 

This TRULY made me LAUGH OUT LOUD. If I had been drinking milk it would have come out my nose...no lie. My kids would do the same thing.

[Ellie]

:iagree:Unschooling, when done well, looks incredibly exhausting! It is my understanding that it puts MORE on the parents than regular hs. Rather than doing the easy thing (today we're learning blablabla), unschooling parents have the responsibility to MAKE their children interested and WANT to learn. IOW, the unschooling parents I know, and those being discussed on this board, are not unschooling in the traditional sense (oxymoron, right, but YKWIM). They are just using it as an excuse to let their children's mind and potential languish while they do whatever it is they do.

Unschooling parents don't think about making their dc be interested in anything. Unschooling parents live life and involve their children. Unschooled children have the freedom to pursue their interests; they are not being led into learning things.

 

Without reading John Holt, it's difficult to truly understand what unschooling really is, I guess.