Living in harmony with those you disagree with

[lovinmyboys]

I am not very close to most of my family any more and I think it is mostly my fault. They all believe things I just think are so crazy and I can’t get over it. I hate it because I am the one who pushed them away and I feel a bit lonely. I have four great teen boys and I do have good friends. We move a lot so my friends are kind of scattered everywhere, but I have some good ones here. I think I am going to try to get therapy to work through it. 
 

One of my family members is in the hospital and my mom is upset because I said I don’t really talk to that person. I of course wish no ill will on them. And it just kind of brought it home that I am not close because no one told me.

Also, I worry that if my kids make choices as adults that I don’t agree with, I will have a hard time staying close to them. I want to be a gracious and non judgmental person, but some things are just so hard for me to let go.

This is like the third bad thing that has happened to my family in the last 9 months and each one just makes me feel so guilty and lonely.

Edited February 4 by lovinmyboys

[Pam in CT]

(( hugs ))

 

I have mixed feelings about Brene Brown, but she draws a distinction between "guilt" and "regret" that I find quite helpful. Guilt aims inward/targets "who I AM"; while remorse aims at specific conduct/ targets "what I DID." 

Guilt thus renders us passive and perseverating about the past, while remorse has the capacity to motivate us to do what we can to rectify past conduct and try to do better going forward.

[maize]

How are you with not judging yourself?

I ask because in my experience compassion and non-judgmentalism needs to start with self-compassion. A person who is constantly critical of themselves can't help but be critical of others as well. There are books about self compassion; that might be a place to start. Radical acceptance is another concept that can be worth investigating.

I also like The Anatomy of Peace and other books by the Arbinger Institute.

[bolt.]

It's hard to move away from being someone who is a little judgy and prefers the company of like-minded folks. I say that because that's the way I am.

The thing is that it doesn't work to just keep all of the frustrated and judgmental thoughts inside and try to be nice anyways. That kind of thing might fool the other person (maybe!) but it won't fool yourself, and you're the one that's frustrated.

Instead, it's a patient process of giving other people permission to think their own thoughts; acknowledging that they have had a journey that has landed them somewhere, and that was a legitimate path to a reasonable outcome; regarding them as the one and only expert on their own lives and their personal perspectives. Everyone gets to sail their own ship: even if they steer it 'wrong', they are still 'right' because it is 'right' that they are the one steering. The journey belongs to them: respect their territory, and regard activities of their minds as waaaaay outside of your boundaries.

Sometimes I say to myself, "I always knew there were people in the world who believe xyz (or do whatever), and now I know that one of them is in my inner circle. That's not new. It's not hurting me."

Even with these mindset shifts, there's still a big role for avoiding topics, using tact, redirecting conversations, having 'pat answers', having good boundaries, and an exit strategy.

It's okay not to pick them for your closest friends (but you might find that you can eventually!) but you can't choose your family, and you certainly don't want to be so different from your adult kids that you feel distant from them in the future. The path there is through patient growth in your own capacity to respect individuals as pinnacles of individuality.

[Heartstrings]

As someone with strong beliefs, I have to remind myself to draw distinctions between what someone believes and who they are.  
Some people have beliefs that make them act like vile people.   Those people have no place in my life, because they themselves are vile and act vile.  
 

Some people have beliefs that I personally think are rather terrible but their behavior is fine.  These people can stay in my life, but probably at a slight distance depending on the circumstances. Probably with some boundaries around not discussing the topics we disagree with.  
 

I can handle my kids having different beliefs as long as they are overall good people.  

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, bolt. said:

okay not to pick them for your closest friends (but you might find that you can eventually!)

This is true!  I have a few very close friends who have very different beliefs than I do.  We occasionally discuss, sometimes lightly argue, but I know their hearts and know they are good people.  They are just “wrong” about a few things.  They also think I am “wrong” on a few things and love me anyway.  

[lovinmyboys]

Thanks so much for the wise words. I really am going to go to therapy for this, but if anyone would want to weigh in on specifics. 
 

How would you handle these types of things (some details changed)

Not giving their child with type 1 diabetes insulin because they believe God healed them of that

Homeschooling only the Bible because all subjects can be taught through it 

Spanking a toddler for pooping in the bathtub 

Participating in January 6 (like going into the capitol but committing no crimes)

Concealed Carrying guns into your house 

Talking about how Andrew Tate is being persecuted for speaking the truth

When they talk about those things in conversation with me, what do I say? 
 

writing this out it seems so crazy, but in certain circles this is all very normal and I am the crazy one. I know they have their reasons for believing these things.

Edited February 4 by lovinmyboys

[City Mouse]

Not giving a type 1 diabetic insulin is flat out child abuse, and I would report them in a heartbeat.  Spanking the child for that reason is another red flag with me for possible child abuse. 

Some places there is no oversight for homeschooling, so the parents are within their legal rights. Other states would consider that neglect. It depends on where they live.

Bringing a gun into someone else’s home when asked not to do so would get that person banned from my house.

The rest of the things I would just refuse to discuss with them at all. If they chose to try to have such discussions, I would remove myself from that location.

There is a guy I watch on YouTube who would say that “they” are the ones choosing to not be in a relationship with you if you have asked them not to do xyz and they continue to do those things. He would say you will have to morn the loss of those relationships just as if the person had died, but he would also say to choose guilt over resentment every time. 

Edited February 4 by City Mouse

[lovinmyboys]

8 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

Not giving a type 1 diabetic insulin is flat out child abuse, and I would report them in a heartbeat.  

I did change this detail, so it is possible their condition is less severe. But the child is supposed to take daily medication and has twice been hospitalized because they decided to pray and lay hands instead of giving the child the medicine. After the hospitalization, they complied with the treatment for awhile, but then later decided god had healed the child. I also am surprised that this is allowed, but I guess since they take their child in when it is an emergency they are within their parental rights. They certainly don’t keep it a secret.

Edited February 4 by lovinmyboys

[MercyA]

12 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

Thanks so much for the wise words. I really am going to go to therapy for this, but if anyone would want to weigh in on specifics. 
 

How would you handle these types of things (some details changed)

Not giving their child with type 1 diabetes insulin because they believe God healed them of that

Homeschooling only the Bible because all subjects can be taught through it 

Spanking a toddler for pooping in the bathtub 

Participating in January 6 (like going into the capitol but committing no crimes)

Concealed Carrying guns into your house 

Talking about how Andrew Tate is being persecuted for speaking the truth

When they talk about those things in conversation with me, what do I say? 

Not giving insulin: That is abuse and I would report it immediately.

Homeschooling only the Bible: That is abuse, IMO, but may not be illegal. Depending on the laws in their state, I might report them.

Spanking for accident in bathtub: I would tell the person that is not something the child can control and that they should not have spanked the child. I would attempt to communicate this as persuasively as possible. There's nothing else you can do legally except keep an eye on them. 😞 

Carrying guns into house if they know you don't allow it: They don't get to come over anymore.

January 6 / Andrew Tate: Oh boy. I wouldn't debate these things. I would remind myself to show love to the family member. 

So sorry you are going through this.

[MercyA]

4 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

I did change this detail, so it is possible their condition is less severe. But the child is supposed to take daily medication and has twice been hospitalized because they decided to pray and lay hands instead of giving the child the medicine. After the hospitalization, they complied with the treatment for awhile, but then later decided god had healed the child. I also am surprised that this is allowed, but I guess since they take their child in when it is an emergency they are within their parental rights. They certainly don’t keep it a secret.

This still sounds reportable.

[maize]

What do you say?

In most cases, you just let it go. 

The insulin issue is concerning; that could be actually life-threatening. How to address it would depend on the specific situation. Is this a person who might listen if you talk about the real risks involved? Is the situation ongoing and so drastic that you need to call social services? You're going to have to followyour best judgment if a life is at risk.

Oh, I just saw your update that the actual condition isn't type 1 diabetes. For most other conditions, skipping daily medication isn't so drastic. Concerning but maybe not urgently life threatening.

Spanking for pooping in the bathtub I would gently push back on if I had enough of a relationship with the person to do so and talk about my own experience with gentler parenting approaches, but millions, maybe billions of humans have survived bring spanked as toddlers; unless you have reason to believe the child is at risk of serious harm there's not a need to intervene more directly. The best thing you can do is probably be a support and resource for both the child and the parents. 

The rest of it? Pass the been dip and change the subject. Talk about something you can agree on--the weather, a recent sports game, reminiscences about visiting Grandma's house...remind yourself as many times as needed that it's OK for people to be wrong. The only way lots of people won't be wrong about lots of things is if they are transformed from individuals I to puppets mind-controlled by some external force. People being wrong is far better than people ceasing to be individuals.

[lovinmyboys]

For the medical issue, they absolutely would give the child the medication if they believed the child had the condition (and they do give it when they don’t think they have been healed). I think they realize it is dangerous to not give it- their child has had to be admitted two times. The issue is that they keep believing that their child has been healed and the doctors just don’t believe in miracles so they can’t see it. So, when the child gets really sick, they take them in. Then they do the medicine for awhile, but then they will randomly go to a revival where the child is healed and then they quit giving the medicine. I really don’t actually know how they are allowed to do this, but I am confident that the doctors know they do. I think maybe because they do comply for awhile? 
 

eta: it is not diabetes but a different endocrine issue
 

 

Edited February 4 by lovinmyboys

[Heartstrings]

34 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

Thanks so much for the wise words. I really am going to go to therapy for this, but if anyone would want to weigh in on specifics. 
 

How would you handle these types of things (some details changed)

Not giving their child with type 1 diabetes insulin because they believe God healed them of that

Homeschooling only the Bible because all subjects can be taught through it 

Spanking a toddler for pooping in the bathtub 

Participating in January 6 (like going into the capitol but committing no crimes)

Concealed Carrying guns into your house 

Talking about how Andrew Tate is being persecuted for speaking the truth

When they talk about those things in conversation with me, what do I say? 
 

writing this out it seems so crazy, but in certain circles this is all very normal and I am the crazy one. I know they have their reasons for believing 

is it their behavior or their beliefs you have issue with? 

It’s not their belief in religious healing that you can’t stand, it’s the killing of a child.  (I do wonder here, without insulin the child would die pretty quickly, so if it’s been more than a month or so past diagnosis I think insulin is being given somewhere. You might need to gather more info here.  Is the child actively being neglected to death or does the person giving insulin while hoping God will step in? )

It’s not a political difference if they are actively participating in insurrections.  That’s an action on their part. This one is tricky.
 

Concealed carry in your home is about respect. If you ask them not to, will they respect that?  
 

 

Andrew Tate, yeah that’s just opinion stuff.  Will they shut up about it if you ask?  If not, then it’s not their beliefs you have issue with, it’s their disrespect of boundaries and of you.  Homeschooling poorly and spanking probably fall here too, under opinion.   Will they shut up if you ask them to, or do they preach and carry on and act boarish about it?

 

If it’s that they act horribly about their beliefs then you need to reframe it from “I judge people on their beliefs” to “I won’t tolerate boarish people who won’t respect my reasonable boundaries”.  Then you can focus on teaching your kids how to respect boundaries so it’s not a problem with them in the future no matter what they believe.  

Edited February 4 by Heartstrings

[Pam in CT]

8 minutes ago, maize said:

What do you say?

In most cases, you just let it go. 

The insulin issue is concerning; that could be actually life-threatening. How to address it would depend on the specific situation. Is this a person who might listen if you talk about the real risks involved? Is the situation ongoing and so drastic that you need to call social services? You're going to have to followyour best judgment if a life is at risk.

Oh, I just saw your update that the actual condition isn't type 1 diabetes. For most other conditions, skipping daily medication isn't so drastic. Concerning but maybe not urgently life threatening.

Spanking for pooping in the bathtub I would gently push back on if I had enough of a relationship with the person to do so and talk about my own experience with gentler parenting approaches, but millions, maybe billions of humans have survived bring spanked as toddlers; unless you have reason to believe the child is at risk of serious harm there's not a need to intervene more directly. The best thing you can do is probably be a support and resource for both the child and the parents. 

The rest of it? Pass the been dip and change the subject. Talk about something you can agree on--the weather, a recent sports game, reminiscences about visiting Grandma's house...remind yourself as many times as needed that it's OK for people to be wrong. The only way lots of people won't be wrong about lots of things is if they are transformed from individuals I to puppets mind-controlled by some external force. People being wrong is far better than people ceasing to be individuals.

Concur with this with the exception of, if I had actually ASKED a relative to not carry in my house and thereafter somehow discovered my explicit request had been overridden, I wouldn't invite the person into my house again. I deserve the same respect of a stated boundary as DMV even if I don't have a metal detector at the door.

 

But a relative yakking on re Andrew Tate's wisdom, or spouting off re stollen election, I'd just redirect to another subject equally likely to engage but less likely to push my own buttons. Taylor at the Superbowl, forex.   It would for sure affect how *close* a relationship I'd be interested in, but I'd still strive to have *a* relationship, with actual relations.

One of my lifelong bedrock principles is from RBG's memoir, counsel from her mother-in-law: Sometimes it helps to be a little deaf.  Indeed.

[HomeAgain]

One thing to differentiate between are the actions that absolutely make you feel unsafe: withholding medical care, bringing a gun to your home, being a traitor..and the things that are beliefs.

You have a right to feel safe. Other people have a right to be safe in their care.  They depend on you to report when that isn't happening, and your family depends on you to make decisions that keep them out of harm's way.

Their belief system doesn't matter.  When you are not safe around people, it is your responsibility to act in a way that keeps you/others as safe as possible.  People who carry guns into your home don't care about other people. Traitors don't care about other people.  Abusive parents don't care about other people.  You need to report them to the appropriate avenues.

You asked about what ifs when it comes to your children, and the same applies.  If they are willing to put others in danger, you have a responsibility to act and love them by doing what is best for the community as a whole.

[bolt.]

I know things depend on where you live, but that list of behaviours really wouldn't be the kind of thing I could cope with through my current techniques for respecting an individual's journey. (I guess maybe it would matter if a person were doing only one of those things, vs if they were doing the whole list.)

If they were potential friends, they would definitely not be potential friends. I live somewhere where I have a lot more choices for friendship than that, and I might even perceive the situation as one where I became complicit in some of those actions just by knowing and remaining friends.

If they were family members, they would be 'holiday gathering only' folks. (I have relegated some of my extended family to that status for much less in my life.) At holidays I'd take refuge in manners, but I don't think I'd ever feel 'close' to them, and I wouldn't feel the slightest bit guilty about that. Not even if they were sick/hospitalized. Nobody needs to inform every last extended family member when someone they barely speak to is unwell. It's natural to have generations and geography help people drift apart... and fringe belief systems work the same way.

My ideas above were more on a level with folks who... don't believe in climate change, are politically different from me (but limit themselves to legal forms of activism), don't feel the same way about LGBTQ folks, don't feel the same way about Christianity, are an active participant in a different religion from me, are atheist, don't share the same sexual ethics as I do (but do hold some reasonable version of sexual ethics), are very rich and proud of it, are very poor and have pity parties about it, have way too many pets and don't take excellent care of them (but aren't breaking any animal cruelty laws), have different parenting beliefs: letting kids run wild, or being far more strict (and even legally physical) than I deem appropriate, seeing special needs and neurodiversity differently than I do, being wild for youth sports, have different beliefs about euthanasia and act on them (legally), have a strict diet and might be doing themselves harm by it, are 'preppers', are into the military in kind of a strange way, are into star trek in kind of a strange way, believe in astrology... the list goes on. 

All of those things I can handle in friends, family, and grown children.

But your list strikes me differently.

[Halftime Hope]

You can certainly act in a loving manner while keeping specific boundaries.  Can you write cards, make phone calls that are short and cheery, etc.? In general, communicate that you are thinking of them and wishing them well. 

[Grace Hopper]

WRT conversations, you might find the Disrupting Leviathan podcast helpful. 

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I agree with Maize.

I would also joke with them that just like in the Wild West they have to check their guns at the door.  But I'd make it stick.  

Also, I would rehearse what to say in advance, and that would help me stay calmer in the moment.

For instance, I'd have several 'changes of subject' in mind at all times.  And they would be fairly innocuous, but somewhat engaging, like a new recipe I like, or a weird new discovery, or a heroic story.  I'd also have some opinion questions in mind, because they derail people more than stories do.  Like, I'm thinking of painting my kitchen a lighter color--what do you think of maybe a pale lemon yellow?  What about pale bright blue?  I just can't seem to decide.

I'd also have exit strategies in mind, and keep things cordial but not overly long, and especially avoid anyone getting overly tired or otherwise less able to exercise polite self control.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

 
 

One of my family members is in the hospital and my mom is upset because I said I don’t really talk to that person. I of course wish no ill will on them. And it just kind of brought it home that I am not close because no one told me.

 

What do you plan on doing about it?  You are the one that chose for your familial relationship to be this way.  You are the one with the power to change the relationship.  Decide what you really want.

If you want things to be different with your family - start today.  Visit the family member in the hospital, or call them, or send them flowers/gift.   
Make an effort to have contact.  It doesn't have to be elaborate; you don't have to discuss politics or whatever it is to which you object to have a relationship.

[lovinmyboys]

Ok these are some really good ideas.

I sometimes just freeze when I am talking to them and I think some of it is that I do just think they are rude because they know my opinion on things and they purposefully bring these things up. It isn’t like I sit around and discuss gun rights. It makes me uncomfortable. I would really like to just do a lighthearted “oh you know I don’t believe that” and then change the subject. I like the idea of having conversation topics ahead of time so I don’t have to think of them on the spot. 
 

I also like the idea of being a little deaf. I don’t follow my dad on any social media and I think that has helped me have a better relationship with him because I don’t see all the crazy. Some of the stuff he would put on there would really hurt my feelings and now I don’t see it and he doesn’t say it to my face.

And I like the idea of separating beliefs from behavior. And I think part of the problem is that they won’t budge on their beliefs, so keeping the relationship is really on me. Like they won’t leave their guns at home, so if I made that a requirement they would never come to my house-which maybe is fine? Except that it makes my mom upset and I love my mom. My mom would say family is more important than silly rules.

ETA: haha I’m 41 years old and still don’t want to upset my mom 

Edited February 4 by lovinmyboys

[KungFuPanda]

Could you do a family therapy session with your boys? It could be a good way to demonstrate that you want the relationships to improve going forward, that you accept your role in the current situation, and that you are willing to do the work in personal therapy to address your issues. Knowing you care and are trying can go a long way. 

[Terabith]

Honestly, I wouldn’t want these people in my life, and I wouldn’t feel a moment’s regret at not being close to them.  

[Innisfree]

2 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

I think some of it is that I do just think they are rude because they know my opinion on things and they purposefully bring these things up. It isn’t like I sit around and discuss gun rights.

Boy, can I relate. Just saying.

It does bug me when I carefully avoid topics that I know we strongly disagree about, but the other person keeps bringing the subjects up. In that case, I have sometimes just stated clearly that we’re better off not discussing that.

[lovinmyboys]

Just now, KungFuPanda said:

Could you do a family therapy session with your boys? It could be a good way to demonstrate that you want the relationships to improve going forward, that you accept your role in the current situation, and that you are willing to do the work in personal therapy to address your issues. Knowing you care and are trying can go a long way. 

Sorry I probably wasn’t really clear. The issues are with my family of origin. I was just thinking ahead to how I would handle it if my boys did things I thought were crazy. Like, for me, I know I wouldn’t handle it well if they didn’t vaccinate my grandchild at least for things like the measles. I would have a hard time if they only taught my grandchild the Bible. I certainly hope this never comes to pass, but I was just thinking I need to learn to handle people who do things differently than me now if that makes sense.

[Tiberia]

 I would try to start to cultivate a relationship with them for the sake of their children. At some point, as the kids grow older, they might need to know that there are kind, loving people who don't act and believe as their parents do. As young adults, way in the future, the kids might need a soft space to land, and to know that their "weird aunt" (you), might give a different perspective, and you could have thoughtful conversations with them. I have seen many kids like this reject their parents' extremist religion and politics. It didn't always go well, but it has helped for the kids to see that some good people in their lives don't participate in their parents' worldview.

[lovinmyboys]

@bolt. I love your list and it was very clarifying for me. For instance, I am absolutely not a believer in astrology, but I do have a good friend who is into it. I think the reasons I can handle that are because she is awesome in so many ways, she really likes her astrology, but doesn’t try to make me a believer, she doesn’t use it to do anything that I think is actually harmful. 

[KSera]

11 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

Like they won’t leave their guns at home, so if I made that a requirement they would never come to my house-which maybe is fine? Except that it makes my mom upset and I love my mom. My mom would say family is more important than silly rules.

Can you ask her if family is more important than guns? From what you’re saying, it sounds like maybe they wouldn’t agree. But there’s no reason your rules in your house should be less important than their guns. I’d be inclined to ask what they think they need protection from at your house. If they think it’s that dangerous, they probably shouldn’t go. 

4 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

Sorry I probably wasn’t really clear. The issues are with my family of origin. I was just thinking ahead to how I would handle it if my boys did things I thought were crazy. Like, for me, I know I wouldn’t handle it well if they didn’t vaccinate my grandchild at least for things like the measles. I would have a hard time if they only taught my grandchild the Bible. I certainly hope this never comes to pass, but I was just thinking I need to learn to handle people who do things differently than me now if that makes sense.

My concern would be the opposite direction: that if any of your kids grows up to believe differently from you, they would follow your example and cut off contact. I would have significant problem with many of the things on your list, so I definitely see your dilemma here, but at the same time I’m able to see that if one of my kids was engaging in any of those behaviors, my response would be different than if it was a different family member. But I can see that for my kids they might see it the same way I would currently see it with an extended family member. That’s the part that would worry me. 

[maize]

11 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

 

And I like the idea of separating beliefs from behavior. And I think part of the problem is that they won’t budge on their beliefs, so keeping the relationship is really on me. Like they won’t leave their guns at home, so if I made that a requirement they would never come to my house-which maybe is fine? Except that it makes my mom upset and I love my mom.

Regarding concealed carry, if the guns are staying securely holstered I personally don't worry about it.  I don't love gun culture and won't keep guns in my house, but I don't worry about who might he coming through my door with a firearm on their person. Accidents when a gun is properly holstered with the safety on a very unlikely--I'm at much greater risk getting into a car than standing or sitting next to someone with a secured firearm. 

I would put my foot down if someone wanted to bring their gun out of the holster and, say, display it to my kids. And I would not take kids to visit a home where I knew firearms were not properly secured and were left lying around. 

[Kanin]

I would have an extremely hard time letting go of any of the things you described, and I would likely not want to spend time with these relatives. Personally, I don't think that family relationships are necessarily more worth preserving than non-family relationships. If it's not a person I would choose to spend time with if I met them "in the wild," then I don't see a need to cultivate a relationship with them just because we're family. 

Maybe that sounds horrible and cold. 

I can see how it would be a lot harder to deal with when people talk to you about it/make you feel guilty about it, though.

I usually don't have an issue just not talking about certain things with people, but as a result my relationship with them is superficial. 

Edited February 4 by Kanin

[Pam in CT]

It's fine to have relationships that are not-close.

It's fine to limit in-person contact with people with whom you are not-close to occasional gatherings in other people's houses, or parks, or coffee shops.

It's fine to send flowers or call someone with whom you are not-close rather than visiting in the hospital.

It's fine to redirect conversations with people with with whom you are not-close if you're veering towards a train wreck.

It's fine to not have people with whom you're not-close into your own home. Particularly if they're unwilling to honor expressed house rules (about guns or dogs or taking off shoes or alcohol or anything else, it's your d@mn house). But it's also fine for no reason other than you're just not feeling it.

It's fine. Really.

[Lecka]

Someone bought a special car gun safe so they wouldn’t have to bring their conceal carry into our home.  
 

It’s not something I condone.  
 

Edit:  Realistically people are either leaving their gun home sometimes or concealed carrying illegally.  Because some places do not allow concealed carry.  So either they are leaving their gun home sometimes or they are getting a car gun safe of some type or making some kind of other arrangement that is legal and safe.  

Edit:  I have let someone come on our patio as a compromise which seems fine in good weather.  Oh but wait!  Technically we didn’t invite him inside.  Because we knew he always carries and I think it’s disrespectful to me.  This is an in-law for me and I don’t see why I should be disrespected in my own home.  

 

Edited February 4 by Lecka

[KungFuPanda]

54 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

Sorry I probably wasn’t really clear. The issues are with my family of origin. I was just thinking ahead to how I would handle it if my boys did things I thought were crazy. Like, for me, I know I wouldn’t handle it well if they didn’t vaccinate my grandchild at least for things like the measles. I would have a hard time if they only taught my grandchild the Bible. I certainly hope this never comes to pass, but I was just thinking I need to learn to handle people who do things differently than me now if that makes sense.

Ohhhhh, I did misunderstand. Yeah, then it’s not your responsibility to fix things. I’d definitely distance myself. You don’t HAVE to spend time with toxic people just because you’re related. I think if a person has wronged their kids (or the next generation) it is their responsibility to do the work to repair that relationship or expect it to fade away. 

[lovinmyboys]

45 minutes ago, maize said:

Regarding concealed carry, if the guns are staying securely holstered I personally don't worry about it.  I don't love gun culture and won't keep guns in my house, but I don't worry about who might he coming through my door with a firearm on their person. Accidents when a gun is properly holstered with the safety on a very unlikely--I'm at much greater risk getting into a car than standing or sitting next to someone with a secured firearm. 

I would put my foot down if someone wanted to bring their gun out of the holster and, say, display it to my kids. And I would not take kids to visit a home where I knew firearms were not properly secured and were left lying around. 

I agree. I don’t think it is actually a danger so it is something I let go.

[Lecka]

I do not trust the judgment of the specific people who would conceal carry in my home.

 

 

[Pam in CT]

re cc rabbit trail...

11 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I do not trust the judgment of the specific people who would conceal carry in my home.

Right, if this were the case, I'd stick to my boundary.

It's also quite weird to consider the situation from the reverse POV. If a person feels sufficiently unsafe inside my house that they feel compelled to carry for their own security... honestly, it's just better all around if we stick to public spaces, KWIM? The evidence would suggest neither one of us feels fully safe around EACH OTHER.

Which is kind of the definition of a not-close relationship.

 

Sorry for the rabbit trail, over and out now.

[fairfarmhand]

For your mom, can you frame it as “THEY are choosing carrying a weapon over family.”

you are allowed to make the rules for your own family.

I have a family member whose dogs are like their kids. My house is a no indoor animal house. We make a comfortable space in our garage for their dogs. I’m not obligated to let their dogs in my house because….family.

what if it’s singing obnoxious rap songs that depict rape?

What if it’s watching porn in public areas of my home with my kids around? 

There can always be a thing that someone gets hung up on, and if that thing is more important than family, it’s not on you to bend in your own home. 

you get to make the rules for your home. They get to make the rules for their home. 
 

we have firearms. I have a concealed carry permit. If someone says “no guns in my house” they don’t go in that persons house. Period. Their house, their rules. I deal with it the same way that I do when I go to any of the county or state office buildings. 

[Grace Hopper]

44 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re cc rabbit trail...

Right, if this were the case, I'd stick to my boundary.

It's also quite weird to consider the situation from the reverse POV. If a person feels sufficiently unsafe inside my house that they feel compelled to carry for their own security... honestly, it's just better all around if we stick to public spaces, KWIM? The evidence would suggest neither one of us feels fully safe around EACH OTHER.

Which is kind of the definition of a not-close relationship.

 

Sorry for the rabbit trail, over and out now.

Another POV to consider is the other people living in your home. My youngest has been so affected by armed intruder drills in school, and being in text conversation with friends on lockdown due to an active shooter, she and her peer group are not comfortable with the idea of anyone coming into their home armed. DH does own and responsibly stores a shotgun, but someone else bringing a gun into my home is something I am not comfortable with, both personally and on behalf of my kids (own and bonus peers). Only exception would be our LEO friend openly carrying while in uniform - and I think he only ever stopped by for driveway visits armed that way. 

Edited February 4 by Grace Hopper

[Lecka]

I do think where we used to live at the time, there were storage laws for guns such that you couldn’t lock your gun in the trunk of your car.  
 

One person would visit us from out of state and couldn’t just leave his gun home if he was on a multi-day trip. 

It’s more involved in its way.  
 

I’m trying to remember if there was an issue with a motorcycle, but I think he had a truck.  But it is true if someone is riding their motorcycle cross country and wants to come over, they have to safely store their gun in some way if I won’t let it in my house.  But this person was not someone difficult and I know we had some easy solution.  Because this person wants to get along and find a solution.

 

Honestly there are also people where I would be fine *if it even come up but it doesn’t because they don’t conceal carry 100% of the time.*  

 

But if I’m going to have a rule it’s also messed up if I say “I don’t mind your friend Kevin but hell no for your dad.”  Except I do also mind his friend Kevin but I might not care if it was just Kevin.  

Edit:  or open carry actually.  

Edited February 4 by Lecka

[Lecka]

*Also my husband likes guns so it would be weird to say someone can’t take it out of the holster to show my husband.  That would actually be weirder for my situation.*

 

Edit:  in fact I think it’s likely people do show my husband their guns 75% of the time.  

Edit:  but not in the house!!!!!!

 

 

Edited February 4 by Lecka

[SKL]

I think just remember that these people are the same people you used to love / enjoy.  They have not changed, some aspect of the world around both of you has changed.

None of us is perfect, none of us knows it all. 

Being right is just not that important.  We need to let it go in favor of relationships that are, or should be, important to us.

I disagree with family and friends a lot, but I don't need to argue about it.  It doesn't matter that much.  Arguing / discussing it won't accomplish much if anything.  It's more important to support each other on the things that matter, like making people feel loved and cared for.

So if a topic of contention comes up, find something you probably agree on and move on as soon as possible.

[Faith-manor]

4 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

Thanks so much for the wise words. I really am going to go to therapy for this, but if anyone would want to weigh in on specifics. 
 

How would you handle these types of things (some details changed)

Not giving their child with type 1 diabetes insulin because they believe God healed them of that

Homeschooling only the Bible because all subjects can be taught through it 

Spanking a toddler for pooping in the bathtub 

Participating in January 6 (like going into the capitol but committing no crimes)

Concealed Carrying guns into your house 

Talking about how Andrew Tate is being persecuted for speaking the truth

When they talk about those things in conversation with me, what do I say? 
 

writing this out it seems so crazy, but in certain circles this is all very normal and I am the crazy one. I know they have their reasons for believing these things.

The first one is child, child neglect, reckless endangerment, and potential of murder if the child falls into a coma and dies.

Second - educational neglect. Illegal in some states, often not enforced. Still, a crime against the child.

Third - abuse.

Fourth - an act of sedition and potentially treason, criminal acts. I don't spend time in the company of people who support this kind of thing. I don't want to end up being asked by the prosecution to testify because my ignorant nephew's rants on social media, and threats of joining the insurrection with his many guns. That is something I just have to stay away from. His fault not mine, so if you habe relatives who support those crimes, you have nothing to feel guilty about for keeping your distance.

Fifth - people who openly brag to me that they carry guns are people I do not spend time with when I can avoid it. Unfortunately, in my family, the dolt that stockpiles a gun and thinks he needs to have one on his person everywhere he goes, was the same person who also decided to clean a hand gun while drunk, didn't realize it was still loaded, and missed shooting his pregnant wife in the abdomen by 2 inches. Bullet lodged in the wall, shorted out wiring, and started a fire. Nope. Not hanging out with him.

Sixth - that one is more of a grown inward, and turn head away so I can roll eyes without being seen.

Give yourself permission to not have to be more than cordial with family members who believe dangerous things or act in dangerous ways.

We don't get to choose our families. But also work on the concept of an open and loving relationship with your children, and learn coping techniques for how to deal with it if they ever did adopt such notions and practices. Your kids are your primary family responsibility. This is where you want to work on how to handle your feelings, and their choices.

[SKL]

3 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

I sometimes just freeze when I am talking to them and I think some of it is that I do just think they are rude because they know my opinion on things and they purposefully bring these things up.

The fact that they like talking about Issue ABC is [probably] not a personal insult to you.  Unless you are sure they brought it up just to upset you and for no other reason.  In general, people are allowed to believe and say things you disagree with.  Just like you're allowed to believe they are wrong.

 

Maybe it would help if, before meeting these folks, you go on YouTube and force yourself to listen to "the other side" on these topics.  In doing this privately, come up with words to redirect such conversations.  This might reduce the chance that your folks' comments will trigger an overly emotional reaction on your part.  And when I say "redirect," I don't mean telling them why they are wrong.  😛  I mean "oh yeah, I heard about that, I know it upset some folks.  But hey, I was thinking about you the other day because you like cruises.  I heard they are putting Starlink on a lot of cruises now.  Do you have any cruises planned for this year?"

 

Edited February 4 by SKL

[Kalmia]

It seems there are two different issues. One: What to do about family members whose behavior crosses your boundaries or your sense of basic morality (such as medical care for a child). Two: How to be around family members whose beliefs are radically different than your own, but their behaviors are not in question. You also express that you want to improve your own ability to accept people with differing beliefs. A lot of posters have had good ideas about establishing boundaries on behavior. I won't address that, but as a person with half her family from the south and half from the northeast; I have always been an adept fence straddler in terms of coming to terms with the fact that different beliefs aren't often as dangerous as we make them out to be in contemporary society. In fact, I am refreshed by the differences.

One advantageous decision I made was to take anthropology classes in college. In the ethnographies and accounts of humankind from the distant past to the present I learned that the mind's attention to stories and the ease with which the brain is convinced by a good story has led to a world where in some places we have people believing that being bitten by a rabid dog will get you pregnant with the dog's babies or that touching a woman during her menstrual cycle will make you unclean or that (thank you, my young adult neighbor who watches too much YouTube) any food containing "natural flavorings" contains aborted fetuses!?!?!?!? Humans are not rational creatures. Humans are very susceptible to stories and propaganda and the words of authority figures. Kurt Andersen's book, Fantasyland: How America Went Haywire: A 500-Year History, about Americans' history of susceptibility to con artists and conspiracy theories posits that this is nothing new. It has been going for hundreds of years. 

Knowing this, that different peoples create different stories to explain things in the world and that all people are highly attuned to stories and have the potential to be manipulated by stories, one can look at people with different beliefs through a more compassionate lens. Would one be surprised to encounter different beliefs in other cultures? Probably not. Why be surprised that there are different beliefs in a large, diverse population like the United States? When are different beliefs useful? When are wrong beliefs useful? For every differing belief in history one finds ridiculous, there have been other "wrong" beliefs that have broken open the understanding of how the world or universe works (our heliocentric solar system, anyone?) 

Add to this the Internet: non-stop pumping of millions of stories (many told by commercial and political interests) directly into everyone's home (and phone) 24/7. For millennia, humans were only able to access storytelling, song making, or other entertainments if the tellers, performers, singers, or athletes were in their town! Then the printing press was invented and stories were more widely disseminated. Add radio and TV (think of the panic that ensued from the radio play broadcast of The War of the Worlds!). The load of stories is getting heavy. The brain has so much to comb through for good information. Then the Internet firehose releases untold amounts of information and millions of stories. It's really too much for one person to grasp. And so, what gets attention? The loudest most obnoxious voices and the most ridiculous claims. It's no wonder people are spouting nonsense. Anything sensible is being drown out. It's amazing that anyone can function in such an environment. One must muster compassion for those who are manipulated by these stories.

Stepping back and recognizing that all humanity shares this storytelling ability and emotional susceptibility to other people's stories helps one to be compassionate. One might think about how the development of language, art, writing, cooking, fashion, etc. could never be as diverse if people were only allowed to believe the "right" stories. One also might fear what would happen if people were only allowed to believe the "right" things. Who dictates those things? Maybe one's "side" get's to choose the "right" things this year, but what if the other side takes over next year? What has happened historically when governments or cultural groups engage in belief-policing? Valuing freedom of speech (and belief) above our personal comfort with that speech or those beliefs, as American used to do, is necessary to protect our chosen form of governance, democracy. But that does mean, on occasion, we have to have tolerance toward some individuals whose words and beliefs are repugnant. (That does not mean we have to invite them in our house!)

Taking the long view, the anthropological view. Allowing that humans are more often than not fallible. That humans are creative and enjoy storytelling as a social activity, regardless of the value of the story. Being interested in people as unique beings with their own complex histories. All these things help one develop compassion.

And lastly, if I am feeling judgy, I like to keep in mind a slightly modified version of anthropologist Wade Davis' quote:

“The world in which you were born is just one model of reality. Other cultures are not failed attempts at being you; they are unique manifestations of the human spirit.” Wade Davis

And if one substitutes "people" for "cultures": "Other people are not failed attempts at being you; they are unique manifestations of the human spirit.”

(Not directing that "you" toward the OP, just using Wade Davis' term from the original quote.)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4 by Kalmia
fixed reference. Not The Martian Chronicles but War of the Worlds

[SKL]

5 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

Thanks so much for the wise words. I really am going to go to therapy for this, but if anyone would want to weigh in on specifics. 
 

How would you handle these types of things (some details changed)

Not giving their child with type 1 diabetes insulin because they believe God healed them of that

Homeschooling only the Bible because all subjects can be taught through it 

Spanking a toddler for pooping in the bathtub 

Participating in January 6 (like going into the capitol but committing no crimes)

Concealed Carrying guns into your house 

Talking about how Andrew Tate is being persecuted for speaking the truth

When they talk about those things in conversation with me, what do I say? 
 

writing this out it seems so crazy, but in certain circles this is all very normal and I am the crazy one. I know they have their reasons for believing these things.

The illness (not diabetes as you later clarified):  since they take him to the doctor when he gets sick, I wouldn't call the cops on them.  I would hope that after enough times, they would figure out that their way isn't working, and if they don't figure it out, their child eventually will.  If this child were my niece/nephew, I would probably nudge my parent(s) to use any influence they have to encourage a more healthy approach.

Homeschooling the Bible - similar, and I don't know enough e.g. what age the kids are etc.  I think that eventually, most people who do this figure out that it doesn't really work, and sometimes that involves their kids saying "Mom, what if I want to be a nurse / teacher / whatever, I'll have to show xyz on my transcript."  Or, "Mom, I'm the only kid in youth group who never took biology, I think I should take biology.  It's not going to make me an atheist."

Spanking - similar.  If someone told me they spanked their kid for pooping, I'd probably say "I wouldn't do that, this is what worked for me ...."  I would also wonder why they told me that.  Do they think I believe parents need to spank early and often?  Why would they think that?  But in general, a single spanking isn't reportable child abuse. 

All of these things related to their kids would make me NOT want to cease contact with the kids.  The kids can benefit from being around your family, who care that they are not mistreated, and who help them to understand that not everyone believes everything their parents believe.

January 6 presence and concealed carry - these would not bother me.  I'd do the "smile and nod / change the subject."

Andrew Tate - I don't know who he is and honestly don't care.  I'd do the "smile and nod / change the subject."

Edited February 4 by SKL

[prairiewindmomma]

Can I flip the lens a bit? What if what is really happening is that your mom is pressuring you to keep sweet and tolerate abusive behaviors because now that you have had time and distance from them you are starting to recognize how unhealthy some of the thinking and behaviors are in your natal family. The uncomfortableness you are feeling is *supposed* to happen and actually is the normal.

I am glad you are going to explore therapy. I hope you find a wonderful and supportive counselor! ❤️

[sgo95]

6 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

One of my family members is in the hospital and my mom is upset because I said I don’t really talk to that person. I of course wish no ill will on them. And it just kind of brought it home that I am not close because no one told me.

 

3 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

Except that it makes my mom upset and I love my mom. My mom would say family is more important than silly rules.

ETA: haha I’m 41 years old and still don’t want to upset my mom 

These statement make me wonder if your distress/guilt isn't really about the distance you feel from these relatives. It's more that your mom is upset that your relationship with these relatives isn't closer. If so, then this is really about how you've given her power over your emotions.

Whether or not I agree with you, I feel that you are communicating that you think there are good reasons for not pursuing close relationships with people you consider wackos. You get to make that choice. So why do you feel upset about this? Do you ever think about why you don't feel upset at your mom that she's not supporting you in your concerns? Why are you responsible for her sadness?

[lovinmyboys]

Well, yes, if it weren’t for my mom there are several people in my family I probably wouldn’t talk to much other than sending a Christmas card and texting happy birthday or finding out what the kids want for Christmas, etc. But I really love my mom and her family getting along is very important to her. And I do want her to be happy. She has never done anything that bothers me other than pressuring me to “be the better person” in these relationships. My mom keeps all of her controversial opinions to herself and is always kind.

[Lecka]

I have, unbelievably, had some resolution with a vaguely similar issue.  
 

Basically, I’m supposed to be the person who gets along.  It’s on me.

 

What about other people who are difficult?  “That’s just how they are.”

 

My mom never, ever took my side.  Now, if she didn’t take sides, that would be different.  But she did take sides by expecting me to do something different, while making excuses for other people.  

 

Somewhat unbelievably, my step-dad went to bat for me.  My mom has stopped with some things where I say “well did you talk to my sister about it, too?”

 

My mom also wanted to say it was just about political things, but it was not, there was actual rude behavior directed towards me that I was supposed to just ignore for family peace.  
 

Anyway, it’s a lot better.  
 

I moved back to my hometown in July 2020 so it comes up more, because I actually live here and I am either seeing certain people or I’m choosing not to see them.  I went 8 months without seeing some people and basically was not going to go to major holidays either if I was expected to put up with more of the same.  
 

I do feel like I had to make a change as the only way to change the dynamics.  
 

It’s good enough for me now.

 

A lot of it for me is just feeling like my feelings matter and I’m not somehow one of the people who is supposed to put up with everything, while certain people are allowed to be difficult just because somehow they are allowed to be difficult.  
 

I do mean, as in actually rude.  

I can put up with political differences, when the other side is also willing to (motivated to) put up with political differences.  It goes a long way.