Lost submarine

[Bambam]

I think it would be a top story regardless of the wealth of the folks in the sub. It is a compelling story. Five folks stuck in a container lost at sea running out of oxygen. It is a story too - CEO of company that seems clueless on safety/design/proper engineering standards/etc - and what might happen to him.  Anyone else wonder if he is having thoughts of....
   oh, man, I should have listened to those safety guys
   Maybe those engineers knew what they were talking about
   I wish I hadn't saved $$$ by doing this short cut
   I guess everyone else was right and this was stupid and dangerous
Or if he is mad at the folks who can't find him? 

[Farrar]

I think this word "story" speaks to how we process information. Humans like stories. Our brains are made to seize on them. And fighting against it does little good. The Titanic guys are an easier to understand, very individual story. A lot of other tragedies are not. But this is why people pick individuals among groups and make movies and write articles about them, to humanize them and bring their stories to life and to light. And hopefully someone will go do that for the migrants on the boat that sank. And yeah, this is a better immediate one in story terms and we should fight that to some extent, but also we have to understand it, I think. Because if we want to make change and bring that attention to other stories, then we need to understand it.

[Grace Hopper]

From BBC’s Instagram feed this morning.

 

[Heartstrings]

10 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

rom BBC’s Instagram feed this morning

Thanks!  I’m seeing this restated as being about the CEO himself.  I appreciate the official source.  

[Lady Florida.]

2 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

Baby Jessica was such a weird story in context.

In 1976, Little House On The Prairie did an episode where toddler Carrie slipped into an old airshaft for a mine.  She was stuck in a small tubelike hole.  The methods used to try to get her out and the worry about various things were eerily similar to what happened to Baby Jessica 11 years later.  It was like everyone was seeing a real life reenactment of something they knew had a good ending years earlier.  I think that's partially the reason the news didn't condemn the parents or spend their time focused on what they should have done to prevent it.

 

That's interesting. I have never heard this nor was it discussed on the constant news updates. CNN was the news to watch because it was 24/7 (novel at the time) and I don't recall hearing it. It was also common to watch the evening news of one of the then Big 3 - ABC, CBS, and NBC. Don't recall hearing it there either. Neither I nor anyone in my immediate circle (family and friends) had watched LHotP when it was running though so it wouldn't have occurred to us. Still, I wonder if this connection was thought up afterwards. I was 31 then, so it's not as though I was too young to remember. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Lady Florida.

[vonfirmath]

36 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

That's interesting. I have never heard this nor was it discussed on the constant news updates. CNN was the news to watch because it was 24/7 (novel at the time) and I don't recall hearing it. It was also common to watch the evening news of one of the then Big 3 - ABC, CBS, and NBC. Don't recall hearing it there either. Neither I nor anyone in my immediate circle (family and friends) had watched LHotP when it was running though so it wouldn't have occurred to us. Still, I wonder if this connection was thought up afterwards. I was 31 then, so it's not as though I was too young to remember. 

We watched Little House on the Prairie in reruns. And I remember the baby Jessica story (I would have been 13-14).  And I remember thinking how eerily similar it was to the Little House show.  But I was very aware this was RL and not fictional. Stuff happens in fiction different than RL sometimes

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by vonfirmath

[Jean in Newcastle]

45 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

We watched Little House on the Prairie in reruns. And I remember the baby Jessica story (I would have been 13-14).  And I remember thinking how eerily similar it was to the Little House show.  But I was very aware this was RL and not fictional. Stuff happens in fiction different than RL sometimes

 

There are lots of news stories about very similar events where there was a tragic ending. There was a five year old Moroccan boy who died after four days of rescue attempts. I remember comparing his story to that of baby Jessica. It was so sad that his family didn’t have a happy ending. 

[Vintage81]

A debris field has been located…

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Vintage81

[Corraleno]

Someone who had been on the Ocean Gate sub and was familiar with the communication systems said that in addition to texting with the ship, the sub also had a system that automatically pinged every 15 minutes, and in this case both of those systems abruptly stopped an hour and 45 minutes into the dive. He said the only two explanations for why those systems would stop working simultaneously were complete structural failure or complete power failure, so they either died instantly at that point, or they were sitting on the bottom in complete darkness waiting for the oxygen to run out. Finding a debris field is probably the best possible scenario at this point, because at least they didn't suffer.

[teachermom2834]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Someone who had been on the Ocean Gate sub and was familiar with the communication systems said that in addition to texting with the ship, the sub also had a system that automatically pinged every 15 minutes, and in this case both of those systems abruptly stopped an hour and 45 minutes into the dive. He said the only two explanations for why those systems would stop working simultaneously were complete structural failure or complete power failure, so they either died instantly at that point, or they were sitting on the bottom in complete darkness waiting for the oxygen to run out. Finding a debris field is probably the best possible scenario at this point, because at least they didn't suffer.

At least they didn’t suffer and their families have some answers vs. just always wondering or never finding the submersible at all. So as awful as this is it is kind of the best case scenario if they couldn’t be rescued. 

[Grace Hopper]

12 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

At least they didn’t suffer and their families have some answers vs. just always wondering or never finding the submersible at all. So as awful as this is it is kind of the best case scenario if they couldn’t be rescued. 

I do hope the end was swift. Sitting in freezing darkness at the bottom of the ocean, that’s a terrifying thought and an end I could not wish for anyone. 
 

The fam and I were discussing this last night, the what-ifs, and one scenario that came up was what if they are never found. What if these guys decided they wanted Regular Joe incognito lives and schemed a getaway…  I am glad they found evidence and do get some closure, that way the families wouldn’t be plagued with such awful conspiracy theories (eta sorry, we have vivid imaginations in our family). Closure is so valuable. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Grace Hopper

[mommyoffive]

57 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

At least they didn’t suffer and their families have some answers vs. just always wondering or never finding the submersible at all. So as awful as this is it is kind of the best case scenario if they couldn’t be rescued. 

I agree.  Although I am sure they were so hopeful when they got the reports of the banging noise, as I was. 

But man hearing all I have about this "sub" it should have never been taking humans down there. 

The poor families.  

[Grace Hopper]

16 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

I agree.  Although I am sure they were so hopeful when they got the reports of the banging noise, as I was. 

But man hearing all I have about this "sub" it should have never been taking humans down there. 

The poor families.  

Now aren’t we all wondering what the actual cause of the repetitive banging noise is/was?

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Grace Hopper said:

Now aren’t we all wondering what the actual cause of the repetitive banging noise is/was?

Apparently the noise they heard was far away from the actual debris (like 2.5 miles east of the Titanic), and some have expressed frustration that so much time and energy was directed there without sending any ROVs to the Titanic first, which would be the most likely location and is where the debris was eventually found.

Reports are that they have found both the metal frame and the sort of cone-shaped "tail" of the sub ~500 m from the bow of the Titanic, but they haven't found the main part of the capsule yet, which is likely in many pieces.  

Edited June 22, 2023 by Corraleno

[freesia]

So tragic.

[Vintage81]

OceanGate Expeditions has said all five crew members on board the Titan have died.

“We now believe that our CEO Stockton Rush, Shahzada Dawood and his son Suleman Dawood, Hamish Harding, and Paul-Henri Nargeolet, have sadly been lost,” a spokesperson told the BBC.

“These men were true explorers who shared a distinct spirit of adventure, and a deep passion for exploring and protecting the world’s oceans. Our hearts are with these five souls and every member of their families during this tragic time.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/submarine-titantic-missing-submersible-tourists-latest-b2360568.html

[SeaConquest]

Such a waste. At least they didn't suffer. May Gd bring peace and healing to their families. 

[Corraleno]

I feel especially bad for the Dawood family — Christine Dawood lost her husband and son, and their daughter Alina lost her father and only sibling. The Dawoods were also younger than the other men on board (48 & 19) and don't seem to have had any history of risky trips like this — they likely just saw this as a fun, once-in-lifetime day trip. 

Hamish Harding was an aviation expert who went to space with Blue Origin, made two trips to Antarctica, and held world records for fastest circumnavigation of the earth via the poles and longest deep dive in the Mariana Trench. He was obviously into taking risks and pushing limits and would have understood what he was getting into with the Ocean Gate sub. 

Paul-Henry Nargeolet was a 25 yr veteran of the French Navy who devoted his post-military career to research and salvage of shipwrecks all over the world. He was Director of Underwater Research for RMS Titanic, Inc., and had been to the Titanic on other subs many many times. He was 77 years old and although I'm sure he would have preferred to return safely to the surface last weekend, there are worse ways to go than a sudden painless death doing what he loved and had devoted his life to. Maybe he would have even found it sort of poetic that his own remains are now part of the Titanic site.

I can only imagine what's going through the minds of the two men who were supposed to be on this trip but pulled out: Chris Brown, who signed up with his friend Harding but later withdrew due to safety concerns, and David Concannon, who pulled out at the last minute due to a work-related emergency. Makes me wonder which of the ill-fated passengers may have been a last-minute addition?

I hope the friends and families of these men can at least find some peace in knowing their loved ones died instantly and painlessly.

[vonfirmath]

We kept hearing about someone pulling out of the trip "At the last moment" and I wonder which of the occupants "took their place" -- was it the son? Was only dad going to go down but took his son along on the mother ship as a father-son trip. And mom is fuming mad because her son was NOT Supposed to be on that device.  It's so hard either way to lose both at once (I'm a mom of a single son and a single daughter) But-- if she didn't expect her son to even be at risk there also?  OTOH they also talk about the training the crew did and if the son was a last minute, then he would not have gone through the training so maybe that is not so realistic.

 

[marbel]

I agree with the hope of a sudden, painless and fearless death. I think especially of the 19 year old, not a boy but not a man and I particularly hate the idea of him feeling terror at the end. 

Of course this story captured peoples' imaginations in a different way than the recent shipwreck. I'm frustrated by the lack of compassion because they were wealthy men, and 3/5 of them white as well. We can feel compassion for both penniless migrants and wealthy people who lose their lives prematurely and unnecessarily, can we not? 

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, marbel said:

I agree with the hope of a sudden, painless and fearless death. I think especially of the 19 year old, not a boy but not a man and I particularly hate the idea of him feeling terror at the end. 

Of course this story captured peoples' imaginations in a different way than the recent shipwreck. I'm frustrated by the lack of compassion because they were wealthy men, and 3/5 of them white as well. We can feel compassion for both penniless migrants and wealthy people who lose their lives prematurely and unnecessarily, can we not? 

I'm also hearing that, well if they were dumb enough to do this and think it was safe they deserve it. As if being naive and believing what a company promises you is somehow worthy of the death penalty. I had to point out to my DH that his brother is very gullible. Should these people get less empathy than someone like his brother just because they had money?

[Janeway]

15 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

He also didn't want experienced people on his team.  He ranted about ex-military, ex-shipping people being 50-year-old white guys who knew about deep dives and said he wanted energetic 25-year-olds in another article I read,  Plus he was against regulations.  

The utter arrogance.  I don't care if the engineers building good subs are white, black, Asian, Trans,, whatever- I want them to be experienced and have a lot of common sense and knowledge about what they are doing.

I don’t think he cared about the race of his employees but rather said that about race to get support when he really just wanted to pay his employees less.

[Corraleno]

James Cameron is not pulling any punches — he says that the whole concept of a carbon fiber hull was fatally flawed from the start, and that he personally warned another company that wanted to use carbon fiber that they were going to get people killed because the carbon fiber would delaminate under pressure and lead to implosion. He said every other deep sea submersible that has ever operated uses a metal hull and is fully certified, and both he and Bob Ballard said they had never, in 50 years, ever lost a metal-hulled deep sea sub.

Cameron said that many of the experts in the deep sea submersible field had written to Stockton Rush telling him that the technology was far too experimental for him to be taking passengers and urging him to go through the proper testing, inspection, and certification process, but he refused.

The most chilling thing he said was that the sub had sensors on the hull that were supposed to warn if there was a risk of structural failure (Cameron: "if that's your approach to safety, you're doing it wrong!"), and apparently there is evidence that the sub had dropped ballast and may have been trying to surface quickly, so they may have known what was coming, although at least they wouldn't have felt the implosion when it happened.

Interview is here: 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Corraleno

[Selkie]

I was very sad to read that the 19 year old told a relative he was terrified and didn't want to go, but was doing it to please his father. Ugh, so heartbreaking.

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I was very sad to read that the 19 year old told a relative he was terrified and didn't want to go, but was doing it to please his father. Ugh, so heartbreaking.

That is very sad.   

[SanDiegoMom]

15 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I was very sad to read that the 19 year old told a relative he was terrified and didn't want to go, but was doing it to please his father. Ugh, so heartbreaking.

That is devastating.  Just hits so hard. 

[Arcadia]

https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/secret-navy-listening-system-detected-titans-implosion-sunday-report-d992fda7
“According to the report, the unnamed, highly sensitive acoustic-detection system — used to spot enemy submarines — heard a sound consistent with an underwater implosion around the time the submersible went missing, and in the area where a debris field was found Thursday.

The Navy told the Journal that while the data was not conclusive, it was relayed to the U.S. commander on scene conducting the search mission.

…

Earlier Thursday, the U.S. Coast Guard said debris had been found about 1,600 feet from the Titanic, and that the five men onboard the submersible were dead. “This was a catastrophic implosion of the vessel,” Coast Guard Rear Adm. John Mauger said.”

[mommyoffive]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

I was very sad to read that the 19 year old told a relative he was terrified and didn't want to go, but was doing it to please his father. Ugh, so heartbreaking.

I am sure that will haunt his family.  

[Shoeless]

The only comfort I've found is that their deaths would have been instantaneous. What I read stated the vehicle would have imploded in about 1/20th of a second, which is too fast for the brain to comprehend what was happening. At least the 19-year-old would not have died in terror. 😞

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Shoeless said:

The only comfort I've found is that their deaths would have been instantaneous. What I read stated the vehicle would have imploded in about 1/20th of a second, which is too fast for the brain to comprehend what was happening. At least the 19-year-old would not have died in terror. 😞

It seems that they had some warning, either from the sensors on the hull or just from hearing the warning sounds directly, and that's why they aborted the mission, dropped weight, and were trying to return to the surface. Hopefully the time span between realizing something was very wrong and the actual implosion was short, to minimize any panic, but it was at least long enough to drop the ballast and try to return.

Anderson Cooper's interview tonight with James Cameron is the best I've seen so far, he explains the problems with Ocean Gate very clearly, including why carbon fiber should never be used in a sub (it's great for applications where the pressure inside is higher that outside, but it's practically guaranteed to fail when external pressure is much higher than internal). He also says that he, and everyone else in the "deep sea submergence community" knew by Monday morning that the hull had imploded and they were all dead, and he was annoyed at all the coverage about distant "banging" sounds and how many hours of oxygen were left.

 

 

[Vintage81]

4 hours ago, Corraleno said:

He also says that he, and everyone else in the "deep sea submergence community" knew by Monday morning that the hull had imploded and they were all dead, and he was annoyed at all the coverage about distant "banging" sounds and how many hours of oxygen were left.

 

I have questions about this…why the heck were they searching for days if there were so many signs that the submersible had imploded? Mr. Cameron (and others I, I think) seem pretty certain of this. It makes sense, so it begs the question why all the hoopla and searching when they may have had a good idea where the remains of the ship were? 🤷‍♀️

[pinball]

42 minutes ago, Vintage81 said:

I have questions about this…why the heck were they searching for days if there were so many signs that the submersible had imploded? Mr. Cameron (and others I, I think) seem pretty certain of this. It makes sense, so it begs the question why all the hoopla and searching when they may have had a good idea where the remains of the ship were? 🤷‍♀️

When the magician wants you to look in one direction, always look in the other.

 

[Innisfree]

2 hours ago, Vintage81 said:

I have questions about this…why the heck were they searching for days if there were so many signs that the submersible had imploded? Mr. Cameron (and others I, I think) seem pretty certain of this. It makes sense, so it begs the question why all the hoopla and searching when they may have had a good idea where the remains of the ship were? 🤷‍♀️

I read an interview with someone knowledgeable (can’t remember who, but I’ll try to find it) who said, basically, that all they had to show was lines on a graph, and that families couldn’t be expected to accept ending a search based on something so hard to grasp. Someone (else?) also said they would continue to search as long as they had any justification for hope.

ETA I found this, which isn’t what I’d seen before but is along the same lines.

Quote

Without conclusive evidence of a catastrophic failure, it would have been “irresponsible” to assume the five people were dead, the Navy official said, so the mission was treated as an ongoing search and rescue even as the outcome appeared grim.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/22/us/titanic-missing-submarine-implosion.html

ETA2: Found it.

Quote

The acoustic detection was one significant piece of information, but the search had to continue to exhaust all possibilities, said Mark Cancian, a senior adviser with the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

“They suspected what happened but couldn’t be sure,” he said. “What you’re looking at is just lines on a graph. And if you try to convince people you weren’t doing a search because the lines on a graph indicated an implosion, that wouldn’t be acceptable to many.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/22/titan-submersible-navy-sensors/

Edited June 23, 2023 by Innisfree

[El...]

1 hour ago, Vintage81 said:

I have questions about this…why the heck were they searching for days if there were so many signs that the submersible had imploded? Mr. Cameron (and others I, I think) seem pretty certain of this. It makes sense, so it begs the question why all the hoopla and searching when they may have had a good idea where the remains of the ship were? 🤷‍♀️

I think this is unrealistic and oversimplified. (Not you, but the complaint.) 

It's not that simple to tell exactly what made a sound at the time. If I hear a bang upstairs that sounds like my vacuum cleaner falling over, I can't assume I know what happened until I go up there or at least holler. Much more so under water, even with sophisticated equipment. It's easy to say, oh, yeah, that's exactly what that was, in retrospect. 

But you wouldn't bet someone's life on that assumption. Should they have stopped looking, even before they found the debris, while the people might have still had air?

I think the confusing cross-information is normal for this kind of situation. The ocean is REALLY BIG. We, non-marine-study people, generally underestimate its size and complexity. 

I don't think it was possible to quit looking until Thursday. 

I accept that the media coverage was a tad breathless, but that is also normal. 

[Vintage81]

6 minutes ago, El... said:

I think this is unrealistic and oversimplified. (Not you, but the complaint.) 

It's not that simple to tell exactly what made a sound at the time. If I hear a bang upstairs that sounds like my vacuum cleaner falling over, I can't assume I know what happened until I go up there or at least holler. Much more so under water, even with sophisticated equipment. It's easy to say, oh, yeah, that's exactly what that was, in retrospect. 

But you wouldn't bet someone's life on that assumption. Should they have stopped looking, even before they found the debris, while the people might have still had air?

I think the confusing cross-information is normal for this kind of situation. The ocean is REALLY BIG. We, non-marine-study people, generally underestimate its size and complexity. 

I don't think it was possible to quit looking until Thursday. 

I accept that the media coverage was a tad breathless, but that is also normal. 

I think the issue I'm having trouble with is why were they searching such an expansive area (two times the size of CT they kept saying). The submersible was on a descent and then lost all comms and GPS. As far as I understand, their location was known up until losing GPS. 

The loss of comms/GPS, per Mr. Cameron, was a possible indication of a catastrophic failure (like an implosion). Plus, a loud noise in the area was heard. I don't know what they're called, but it sounds like there are underwater microphones all over down there. I believe I read that the US Navy even heard it.

So, my question is why didn't they start their search in that specific spot where the comms/GPS was lost? Why were they searching such a large area? The way Mr. Cameron described it, it didn't sound like it would've been that hard to locate that particular location. I believe he even said he knew they'd find the debris right below the spot where the comms/GPS went out. Maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but that's what I got out of what he's saying. Sorry, it's just irking me. 

[Drama Llama]

14 minutes ago, Vintage81 said:

I think the issue I'm having trouble with is why were they searching such an expansive area (two times the size of CT they kept saying). The submersible was on a descent and then lost all comms and GPS. As far as I understand, their location was known up until losing GPS. 

The loss of comms/GPS, per Mr. Cameron, was a possible indication of a catastrophic failure (like an implosion). Plus, a loud noise in the area was heard. I don't know what they're called, but it sounds like there are underwater microphones all over down there. I believe I read that the US Navy even heard it.

So, my question is why didn't they start their search in that specific spot where the comms/GPS was lost? Why were they searching such a large area? The way Mr. Cameron described it, it didn't sound like it would've been that hard to locate that particular location. I believe he even said he knew they'd find the debris right below the spot where the comms/GPS went out. Maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but that's what I got out of what he's saying. Sorry, it's just irking me. 

My understanding is that they couldn't search the sea floor near the Titanic until equipment that could go that deep arrived.  

So, they started the search in the areas where a rescue might have been possible, even though they knew the chances of finding them there were small. 

[HomeAgain]

2 hours ago, Vintage81 said:

I have questions about this…why the heck were they searching for days if there were so many signs that the submersible had imploded? Mr. Cameron (and others I, I think) seem pretty certain of this. It makes sense, so it begs the question why all the hoopla and searching when they may have had a good idea where the remains of the ship were? 🤷‍♀️

The Titan had gone off course and gotten lost before.  It wasn't unheard of. Also, I will see if I can find it again, but I read a Twitter announcement from one of the executives at OceanGate that just about threatened doxxing members of the U.S. military if they didn't provide search updates.  Simply saying "yeah, noises consistent with it being gone" wasn't going to be enough.

The Titanic is pretty far down.  It wasn't even found until 1985, and U.S. subs don't go that far.  Most have a max dive of about 900 meters, or a third of what the Titanic is at. So to get in a specialty vehicle took time. It also meant that any possibility could not be discounted.  The knocking, the implosion noise, these are things that are labeled after more is known, not something that is 100% identifiable like hearing a favorite song.

[gardenmom5]

I admit, when I heard the thing was made from carbon fiber, all I could think of was "how stupid is that?"  Carbon fiber is strong BUT, it is very brittle and a inserting a screw can cause a crack (1ds did lots of industry funded research on the stuff in college).  I was talking with an engineer who worked with the stuff his whole career, and said it doesn't withstand those types of pressures very well either.

[Heartstrings]

26 minutes ago, Vintage81 said:

I think the issue I'm having trouble with is why were they searching such an expansive area (two times the size of CT they kept saying). The submersible was on a descent and then lost all comms and GPS. As far as I understand, their location was known up until losing GPS. 

The loss of comms/GPS, per Mr. Cameron, was a possible indication of a catastrophic failure (like an implosion). Plus, a loud noise in the area was heard. I don't know what they're called, but it sounds like there are underwater microphones all over down there. I believe I read that the US Navy even heard it.

So, my question is why didn't they start their search in that specific spot where the comms/GPS was lost? Why were they searching such a large area? The way Mr. Cameron described it, it didn't sound like it would've been that hard to locate that particular location. I believe he even said he knew they'd find the debris right below the spot where the comms/GPS went out. Maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but that's what I got out of what he's saying. Sorry, it's just irking me. 

Theater to appease the billionaire families. 

[Vintage81]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Theater to appease the billionaire families. 

Honestly, I can't think of any other logical reason than this. 🫤

[Vintage81]

22 minutes ago, BandH said:

My understanding is that they couldn't search the sea floor near the Titanic until equipment that could go that deep arrived.  

So, they started the search in the areas where a rescue might have been possible, even though they knew the chances of finding them there were small. 

 

17 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

The Titan had gone off course and gotten lost before.  It wasn't unheard of. Also, I will see if I can find it again, but I read a Twitter announcement from one of the executives at OceanGate that just about threatened doxxing members of the U.S. military if they didn't provide search updates.  Simply saying "yeah, noises consistent with it being gone" wasn't going to be enough.

The Titanic is pretty far down.  It wasn't even found until 1985, and U.S. subs don't go that far.  Most have a max dive of about 900 meters, or a third of what the Titanic is at. So to get in a specialty vehicle took time. It also meant that any possibility could not be discounted.  The knocking, the implosion noise, these are things that are labeled after more is known, not something that is 100% identifiable like hearing a favorite song.

Yes, I did hear that the equipment to search that deep is very rare. It just seems like such false hope was given to those families when there was never really any to give. 😔 I think it was still important to find the debris...closure for the families is important. I don't know if it was the media or the rescuers, but as Mr. Cameron put it, it did feel like a bit of a charade. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

22 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Theater to appease the billionaire families. 

It also appeased the people breathlessly watching the media countdown.  Can you imagine the social cost of them not continuing to do all they can to search?  And before someone says that's only for billionaires, I don't think so.  We've already mentioned other situations like the Thai kids in a cave and kids in holes/wells.  This is a time when organizations as well as individuals are "tried" on social media and other forms of public opinion. 

[Heartstrings]

7 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

It also appeased the people breathlessly watching the media countdown.  Can you imagine the social cost of them not continuing to do all they can to search?  And before someone says that's only for billionaires, I don't think so.  We've already mentioned other situations like the Thai kids in a cave and kids in holes/wells.  This is a time when organizations as well as individuals are "tried" on social media and other forms of public opinion. 

But if they hadn’t done the search it wouldn’t have been the huge story.  It would have been a headline and a blip.  

[Happy2BaMom]

27 minutes ago, Vintage81 said:

 

Yes, I did hear that the equipment to search that deep is very rare. It just seems like such false hope was given to those families when there was never really any to give. 😔 I think it was still important to find the debris...closure for the families is important. I don't know if it was the media or the rescuers, but as Mr. Cameron put it, it did feel like a bit of a charade. 

And if they hadn't offered hope, they would be excoriated for "giving up too early / easily".

No one was going to be happy with the rescue attempts and it's very easy to blame the people who were handed a hot-a$$ sandwich and expected to complete an instant miracle.

It just frosts my muffin that the Ocean Gate CEO had gone on the record, loudly & frequently, bitching about US gov't regulations (w/ submersibles) and how "burdensome" and "unnecessary" they were, how they "stifled innovation", and on and on, and then the sub disappears and the company instantly switches to blaming the military & gov't workers who aren't immediately able to rectify a decades-long chain of laughably stupid decisions.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Happy2BaMom

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

the company instantly switches to blaming the military & gov't workers who aren't immediately able to rectify a decades-long chain of laughably stupid decisions.

Especially because there was never a “rescue” possible.  Billionaires are used to being able to throw money at problems, but an implosion is just instantly deadly.  You can’t write the ocean a check and no amount of navy ships can undo an implosion.  

[El...]

36 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

And if they hadn't offered hope, they would be excoriated for "giving up too early / easily".

No one was going to be happy with the rescue attempts and it's very easy to blame the people who were handed a hot-a$$ sandwich and expected to complete an instant miracle.

It just frosts my muffin that the Ocean Gate CEO had gone on the record, loudly & frequently, bitching about US gov't regulations (w/ submersibles) and how "burdensome" and "unnecessary" they were, how they "stifled innovation", and on and on, and then the sub disappears and the company instantly switches to blaming the military & gov't workers who aren't immediately able to rectify a decades-long chain of laughably stupid decisions.

"frosts my muffin" 🤣🤣

I'll be using this phrase from now on!

 

[Terabith]

Wasn’t there something about hearing banging somewhere else, too?  That was unlikely to be them, but if they couldn’t get down to the Titanic, it doesn’t seem insane to look in that area where you could, just in case.  Assuming they were dead when that was by far the most likely scenario but they didn’t know for sure would have been awful if there was even a 1% chance they were elsewhere.  And it seems like that sub gets lost a lot. 
 

I read somewhere that they allowed for five attempts for everyone, because something went wrong so often. And because things went wrong so often, they weren’t even making much money on these trips because of so many attempts.  I would have thought capitalism would have inspired them to have better quality even if ethics didn’t. 

[Vintage81]

12 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Wasn’t there something about hearing banging somewhere else, too?  That was unlikely to be them, but if they couldn’t get down to the Titanic, it doesn’t seem insane to look in that area where you could, just in case.  Assuming they were dead when that was by far the most likely scenario but they didn’t know for sure would have been awful if there was even a 1% chance they were elsewhere.  And it seems like that sub gets lost a lot. 
 

There are two different references to bangs being heard...

The first is on the day the sub imploded. The US Navy (and maybe others) reported what they thought to be an implosion (or an implosion-like noise) only a short time after the Titan started its descent.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-navy-detected-titan-sub-implosion-top-secret-acoustic-system-day-vessel-went-missing

Then, I believe rescuers in the days following reported hearing noises and banging. These bangs are the ones being disputed by Mr. Cameron and others because they believe there was no reason to believe they could've been coming from the Titan. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Vintage81

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don’t blame people for wanting to have hope. After all, there have been stories of miraculous rescues of people trapped under rubble long after people think that there could be any chance of finding survivors as well as other stories of survival despite the odds. While it’s true that people like Cameron might have known the true odds better than us, none of us had the hindsight that we now have after the fact. 

[ktgrok]

And given that the sub MIGHT have been bobbing along near the surface, with them unable to get out, it made sense to try to find them if that was the case. It was unlikely, but imagine if later that DID turn out to be true, and no one looked for them and they suffocated right near the surface?