Article on family estrangement

[KSera]

This topic has come up in multiple threads recently, including one today, and then I saw this article and it seemed timely. It's in The Atlantic, if you have a subscription or free articles left, otherwise the author has it on his Linked In page here:

A Shift in American Family Values Is Fueling Estrangement

These two passages allude to some of the dynamics that have been mentioned in threads here:

Quote

Estrangement seems to affect a small but significant portion of families in the United States, and it is happening today against a backdrop of record-high parental investment. During the past 50 years, people across the classes have been working harder than ever to be good parents. They have given up hobbies, sleep, and time with their friends in the hope of slingshotting their offspring into successful adulthood.

 

Quote

But in other cases, estrangement is born from love. One of the downsides of the careful, conscientious, anxious parenting that has become common in the United States is that our children sometimes get too much of us—not only our time and dedication, but our worry, our concern. Sometimes the steady current of our movement toward children creates a wave so powerful that it threatens to push them off their own moorings; it leaves them unable to find their footing until they’re safely beyond the parent’s reach. Sometimes they need to leave the parent to find themselves.

I thought the article had a lot of insights. I don't have an estranged child, and hope not to, and am not estranged myself from anyone in my family, but from what I see around me, it seems a dynamic that has the potential to affect anyone.

[Slache]

I can't read the article, but based on the quotes it sounds like the gaslighting I've heard from abusive parents. Investment is what they call controlling, and anxious is key for parentification.

[KSera]

7 minutes ago, Slache said:

I can't read the article, but based on the quotes it sounds like the gaslighting I've heard from abusive parents. Investment is what they call controlling, and anxious is key for parentification.

I could be wrong on this, but I don’t know that you would feel that way if you read the entire article. I chose those two quotes to share because they were relevant to some specific aspects of conversations here, but the article covered a wide range of scenarios from abusive parents  to differences in values. 
 

eta: I initially tried to add some thing at the end of the original post to indicate that I expect that the article will likely be read differently from those who are estranged by choice from their own parent than by current parents of young adults who are recently estranged from them. It’s written by someone who specializes in helping people on both sides of that equation. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by KSera

[pinball]

11 minutes ago, Slache said:

I can't read the article, but based on the quotes it sounds like the gaslighting I've heard from abusive parents. Investment is what they call controlling, and anxious is key for parentification.

Why can’t you read it?

the link took me right to it…is it a problem with the link?

[HomeAgain]

I get it.  It's hard to find that sweet spot in a shifting balance.

I will say this: I was part of the generation that grew up with computers and then the internet.  We were the last generation to have so much freedom, and it shaped us.

I feel like a similar shift is happening with my 23yo's generation.  The change in mental health expectations, resources, and conversations happened rapidly.  TV shows from their toddlerhood approach relationships very differently from tv shows in their adulthood.  And it shapes them.  They are the generation that grew up with complex relationships: people online not being the same as people offline, for example, and they are the generation that seeks truth in a world that feels more like 1984.  They NEED the responses that validate their perspectives. They need to know that how they felt was true to them.

[fraidycat]

25 minutes ago, Slache said:

I can't read the article, but based on the quotes it sounds like the gaslighting I've heard from abusive parents. Investment is what they call controlling, and anxious is key for parentification.

Or investment can mean things like homeschooling, accessing treatment and accomodation for learning disabilities for both public and homeschooled children, attending their ball games, etc.

Even in my very loving and stable childhood, my (and many other) parents didn't prioritize attending every basketball or volleyball game like I see most parents doing now, as one example. We traveled in the team van or there were a couple parent drivers to get us to the games. When my DS played those same sports at the same school, the kids traveled with the team and 95-100% of the team has a parent attending the game as well. The kids leave the game with the parents vs. going back to the school for pick-up or getting dropped off at home.

Edited January 9, 2023 by fraidycat

[1234]

None of my dc are estranged from me and I’m not estranged from my mom. I am estranged from my siblings because my adult dc do not want a relationship with them (for very valid reasons). For a time, my mom wouldn’t speak to me because of the same reason but it only lasted a few months.

The thing is, everyone my siblings know (including extended family) have been told I’m the bad guy and the estrangement is solely because they won’t accept my dc being part of the LGBTQ community. I say nothing to whole parts of my family anymore because they believe it’s all my fault and just a result of differing values. The truth is my siblings have decided I’m at fault for my adult dc and I’m apparently a worthless connection to have if my kids aren’t a part of the package.

I’ve decided after two years that I’m definitely better off without them - and I’ve realized how absolutely amazing all of my in laws are, so that’s a win.

[Terabith]

I wouldn’t say I am estranged from my parents.  I talk to them on the phone and visit once a year or so (ten hours away).  I feel like they did the best they could.  But I also think that we’re just…really bad for each other.  We don’t communicate well.  My mother has deeply hurt me on multiple occasions, mixed in with lots of good parenting.  And so I am wary of her and protective of myself, and it would be very, very hard for me to be someone who did hands on care for her. I’m very grateful my sister, whose personality is much more closely aligned with hers, lives five minutes away. I have deliberately made choices to have lots of distance between us, even though I think she really did the very best she could.  But I also don’t know how to really trust her, and I feel like the most important things for her are not reality but what others think, and I am really, really bad at guessing that.  Being around her is really bad for my mental health.  Maybe I’m just not forgiving enough.  I don’t really know how to do things differently though.  

[1234]

@Terabith, I have an issue with trusting my mother as well. After she decided to start talking to me again, our relationship is very superficial because I’m waiting on her to just do it again. It will never be the same and we also moved away not long after. It stinks and I don’t see how it could be any different either. 

[Murphy101]

49 minutes ago, Slache said:

I can't read the article, but based on the quotes it sounds like the gaslighting I've heard from abusive parents. Investment is what they call controlling, and anxious is key for parentification.

Um. No. There wasn’t any of that in the article. 

[Katy]

36 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Um. No. There wasn’t any of that in the article. 

I’ll take your word for it, but she has a point. If the author equates great parenting with estrangement the author has a lot to learn about both. 

[Slache]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

Why can’t you read it?

the link took me right to it…is it a problem with the link?

It says I have to be signed in to Linktin to read it.

1 hour ago, fraidycat said:

Or investment can mean things like homeschooling, accessing treatment and accomodation for learning disabilities for both public and homeschooled children, attending their ball games, etc.

Which is why abusive parents choose that wording. It sounds completely innocent. But when you only get the estranged parents side of the story those are the kinds of words you hear.

[Carrie12345]

It comes across as very surface-level investigation, or at least reporting. I mean, I generally talk to my mom once a month or even less frequently, but there is no estrangement. Why include that? I’d be interested in a more comprehensive detailing of the studies.

”Because the adult child typically initiates the estrangement, parents are often the ones who must take the first steps toward reconciliation. In my practice and in the survey I conducted, I have seen that when reconciliations happen, parents often attribute successful reconnection to efforts on their part to make amends, such as taking responsibility for past harms; showing empathy for the adult child’s perspective and feelings; expressing willingness to change problematic behaviors; and accepting their child’s request for better boundaries around privacy, amount of contact, and time spent with grandchildren. It’s also crucial to avoid discussions about “right” and “wrong,” instead assuming that there is at least a kernel of truth in the child’s perspective, however at odds that is with the parent’s viewpoint”

Uh. Yeah, let’s think about why that might be.
 

[pinball]

Just now, Slache said:

It says I have to be signed in to Linktin to read it.

Which is why abusive parents choose that wording. It sounds completely innocent. But when you only get the estranged parents side of the story those are the kinds of words you hear.

That’s weird bc I’m not signed in and it keeps opening for me every time I click 

🤷‍♀️🤷🤷‍♂️

[KSera]

38 minutes ago, Katy said:

I’ll take your word for it, but she has a point. If the author equates great parenting with estrangement the author has a lot to learn about both. 

I didn't read the article as the author saying great parenting=estrangement whatsoever.

18 minutes ago, Slache said:

It says I have to be signed in to Linktin to read it.

That's interesting. I don't have a Linked In account but was able to read it. If you want to read it, you can web search the title and it will show up other places, including the original Atlantic piece (I'm out of free articles there and don't subscribe; I wonder if they do gift links?)

[Slache]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

That's interesting. I don't have a Linked In account but was able to read it. If you want to read it, you can web search the title and it will show up other places, including the original Atlantic piece (I'm out of free articles there and don't subscribe; I wonder if they do gift links?)

I don't care. I've read enough articles on estrangement to last me a lifetime. I just wanted to share the common practice of misusing words as a form of lying by an abusive parent.

[Melissa Louise]

Thanks, @KSera.

An interesting - and I think, balanced - article.

[Indigo Blue]

I’m thinking estrangement is high in narcissistic families? My mom’s siblings and whole side..they rarely talk to one another. They aren’t angry at each other. They just don’t talk. Just doesn’t seem to be a bond there. I never once in my life saw my mom hug her mom. 
 

My dad was there but absent. We don’t have a relationship. Dad is off and on again estranged from his sister. My brothers and I don’t have a real connection. GC brother and I have just a bit of a relationship. Now 3 of mom’s grandchildren (not my children) are pretty much no contact with mom. My boys aren’t close to my mom. They are free to be or not to be. They have seen reasons to keep a distance there, and they do, but they aren’t estranged. In general, my family is not woven together much at all. Again, I believe it’s because of dysfunction. 
 

My immediate family is different. We are close and we all behave very differently from our extended family. 
 

 

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I’ll take your word for it, but she has a point. If the author equates great parenting with estrangement the author has a lot to learn about both. 

That’s NOT what the article does.  That’s not at all how I read it. And I have estranged family.

The truth is great parents can have kids that cut ties. (Or vice versa)

The article does not equate anything. It gives multiple scenarios of estranged families and why they often happen.

[Murphy101]

41 minutes ago, Slache said:

I don't care. I've read enough articles on estrangement to last me a lifetime. I just wanted to share the common practice of misusing words as a form of lying by an abusive parent.

That’s not at all what the article is about. This article is not from or about an abusive parent lying by misusing words and I see no reason to attribute that agenda to it.  If you don’t want to read the article bc you’ve read enough for a lifetime - sure. But then there’s not much point to making random comments on its contents.

[Slache]

25 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

That’s not at all what the article is about. This article is not from or about an abusive parent lying by misusing words and I see no reason to attribute that agenda to it.  If you don’t want to read the article bc you’ve read enough for a lifetime - sure. But then there’s not much point to making random comments on its contents.

I didn't know that by the quotes alone. I'm not continuing to make the argument, just stated my initial thoughts. I understand I'm most likely incorrect based on replies.

[City Mouse]

I just read the article.

I found it pretty much a text book compare and contrast type essay. The author gives examples from both parent and adult child point of view. He acknowledges cases of abuse, but really seems to be focusing on less obvious reasons for estrangement. Then he sites surveys to explain the difference of option between the parents and adult children. What I got out of it was that family bonds used to be primarily about obligation, and that has changed in the US over time. He doesn’t give his opinion, or seem to make any judgement, about the estrangements themselves, rather he is focusing on why there seems to be an increase in estrangements. 

[Farrar]

I have estranged family and it really resonated with me, especially the historical perspective at the beginning and the shift in what we expect from family.

My situation with estranged family is not one of abuse at all. There is definitely some bad behavior, some boundaries violated, some uneven parenting... basically a lot of imperfection. There was also a lot of trauma mostly because of poverty. And other than the parenting, that's both sides of it. But mostly it's just... a massive misunderstanding that no one is healthy enough to process and heal. And the framing over time leans into the whole abuse and boundaries talk. I think several decades ago there's no way it would have gone down this way.

One thing that I've noted though. I have wondered if estrangement is like a genetic disease with a dominant gene, making it more likely to spread. Estrangement runs up and down my mother's family in a number of ways. Her parents were both semi-estranged from family because of rough early life circumstances. Then, my mother is properly estranged from her brother. And now my brother is estranged from me and my mother. It feels to me sometimes like it's some sort of curse playing out over time and I fear passing it to my kids.

[Faith-manor]

6 hours ago, City Mouse said:

I just read the article.

I found it pretty much a text book compare and contrast type essay. The author gives examples from both parent and adult child point of view. He acknowledges cases of abuse, but really seems to be focusing on less obvious reasons for estrangement. Then he sites surveys to explain the difference of option between the parents and adult children. What I got out of it was that family bonds used to be primarily about obligation, and that has changed in the US over time. He doesn’t give his opinion, or seem to make any judgement, about the estrangements themselves, rather he is focusing on why there seems to be an increase in estrangements. 

I think this is astute. Previous generations took "Honor thy father and thy mother" to the extreme that meant tolerating a lot of behavior that should not be tolerated. Obligation. People felt obligated to their parents. Younger generations believe family bonds should be a product of healthy relationships, love, and mutual respect. If they do not have that from their relatives, they do not have that, they do not feel compelled to continue trying. Of course there are some kids who demand respect and care, but have none to give themselves. Such is the way of humans.

I also think, for the most part, people jump to judgments about who is cut off from whom and the reasons this occurs without truly having inside knowledge of exactly what has gone down. To hear my brother's friends talk, my nephews are absolutely evil. How dare they cut off their dad! They have NO idea how destructive, toxic, and neglectful my brother was and continues to be. They probably would not be willing to listen to my nephews if given the opportunity because it would challenge their perceptions of who my brother and his wife are, and that is also a very human thing.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Faith-manor

[Lecka]

I also identified with part of the article.

About divorce.

I side with one parent in the divorce.  

I have had it pointed it out to me recently by one of my sisters, that I could show more nuance there and see my father as a human being who had difficulties of his own etc.

I just don’t feel that way.

However, I’m not estranged, either. 

But the sentence or two about divorce made sense to me.  
 

I think the divorce rate is much higher than in the past.  If my parents hadn’t gotten divorced then I would surely have a different relationship.  
 

I am also very close to my step-father, and that is part of the article too, that sometimes children move on to having relationships with other people instead of with a parent.  That made sense to me also.  
 

Like — if I consider my step-dad to be my father, that really ratchets down the space for my father.  He is my sisters’s father but I can tell that there are things all the time where my automatic first instinct is to think of my step-dad and I might not even realize it unless I am comparing myself to my sisters.  
 

I also feel like a lot of “blood relation” stuff is very offensive to step-parents.  My step-dad does not have “his own” children and I do not care for that distinction to be made in our situation.  It is not a distinction I make.  
 

Edit:  on this topic I don’t think older generations believed as much that a step-parent relationship could be close.  I think it was seen more as an exception, and assumed people would favor their blood relatives.  I think that has changed.  I think there is a higher expectation for step-parents, too, in general.  

Edited January 9, 2023 by Lecka

[Melissa Louise]

Another perspective, which I'm more familiar with in my family of origin:

 

[Shoeless]

17 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Another perspective, which I'm more familiar with in my family of origin:

 

This was the case in my mother's family. My uncle did not move out of the family home, establish friendships, or date until after my grandmother died. He was in his mid-50s. 

After his mother died, that branch of the family has essentially fallen apart. No one talks to anyone else; they don't know how to talk, only shout at each other. 

[thatfirstsip]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Another perspective, which I'm more familiar with in my family of origin:

 

Love me some yalom (in small bytes, and with caveats). But still, +1

[Murphy101]

15 hours ago, Lecka said:

I also identified with part of the article.

About divorce.

I side with one parent in the divorce.  

I have had it pointed it out to me recently by one of my sisters, that I could show more nuance there and see my father as a human being who had difficulties of his own etc.

I just don’t feel that way.

However, I’m not estranged, either. 

But the sentence or two about divorce made sense to me.  
 

I think the divorce rate is much higher than in the past.  If my parents hadn’t gotten divorced then I would surely have a different relationship.  
 

I am also very close to my step-father, and that is part of the article too, that sometimes children move on to having relationships with other people instead of with a parent.  That made sense to me also.  
 

Like — if I consider my step-dad to be my father, that really ratchets down the space for my father.  He is my sisters’s father but I can tell that there are things all the time where my automatic first instinct is to think of my step-dad and I might not even realize it unless I am comparing myself to my sisters.  
 

I also feel like a lot of “blood relation” stuff is very offensive to step-parents.  My step-dad does not have “his own” children and I do not care for that distinction to be made in our situation.  It is not a distinction I make.  
 

Edit:  on this topic I don’t think older generations believed as much that a step-parent relationship could be close.  I think it was seen more as an exception, and assumed people would favor their blood relatives.  I think that has changed.  I think there is a higher expectation for step-parents, too, in general.  

I would say in the past they knew step parents could be close but there was not an expectation that should be.  Because as the article noted, in the past individual identity acceptance was not required to be family. You were family bc you were family and that was generally good enough. I do not think that’s all bad.

9 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Another perspective, which I'm more familiar with in my family of origin:

 

In my FOO - that’s absolutely true.

As someone who left that family dynamic when I got married and started having children - it’s incredibly difficult to start from scratch to make a new family culture.  Everything - I had to grow and source on my own. There was no grandma or aunt or sibling or parent or family friend to call for babysitting or to share life struggles over coffee with.

Even orphans have a shared community of sorts with others in foster care and adoptee support groups.

Adults starting on their own to leave generational cycles have nothing. I at least had a spouse. But most don’t even have that. 

[Lecka]

I think it must have been different for different people with step-parent expectations.  
 

My step-father had an ex-wife and she had 2 kids.  He maintained a relationship with his former 2 step-kids.  
 

I would say it was seen as a strange thing because they *weren’t* his family, by some people.  By other people it was seen as totally normal and understandable.  
 

But there were definitely a lot of people who didn’t consider step-family to be real family.  
 

My step-father also had an oldest half-sister…. His father married a woman with a baby and then they had 5 kids together.  His father raised the oldest half-sister with no difference from the other kids, and the siblings were the same.  But many people expressed that the half-sister was not a real part of the family and were always surprised she wasn’t being sent away to live with other relatives or something.  Or they were surprised if she was treated equally with the other sisters, by the parents.  There was an expectation by many that she couldn’t be accepted by the father and would have second-class status forever.

 

I don’t know if this is more regional or cultural.

 

Part of it with the blood relatives thought would also be to be secretive about adoptions.  It was almost like a scandal in one case with an adoption that the older generation knew about but was kept secret from the younger generation until people were in their 50s.  It was known by some but seen as very shameful and not to be talked about.  But I don’t know if that was just from one or two people being likely to be upset about it.  
 

I definitely read that part of the article differently but I can see if step-parents were considered real parents it would be that way.  I think too it “could” make a difference if someone was widowed and then remarried and that is why there was a step-parent.  To me I think that would be a different situation than a step-parent with a living biological parent still in the picture.  
 

My step-dad’s 2 former step-children didn’t have contact with their biological father and called my step-dad “Dad.”  
 

I have never called him “Dad,” though.  
 

Part of it for me is my in-laws are very into “blood relatives.”  It is a firm belief for them and they do not believe in step-family bonds.

 

My sister-in-law was married to her second husband for about 10 years and expected her kids to drop him when she divorced him.  The oldest son is back in contact with his former step-father and I think they are pretty close.  His mom doesn’t like it and I don’t think she understands it, which I can understand with someone raised to think only blood ties mean anything.  Although she is an adult and could have her own thoughts about it, it is not how she was raised.  

[Lecka]

With my step-dad’s half-sister, there is a story that some relatives were mad she got a new dress because they thought she should have worse clothes than the other sisters.  The way it worked out was she and the next oldest sister would get a new dress and then the 2 younger sisters would wear their hand-me-downs.  People thought the new clothes should have gone to a blood daughter and not to the oldest daughter.  
 

To me she would be considered adopted more than a step-daughter, too, because she was raised by him since she was a baby, as his daughter.    
 

It sounds pretty offensive now but this was considered routine and normal attitudes to have where my step-dad grew up.  It was deeply shameful that his mom was pregnant by someone who abandoned her and then her husband was seen as “raising another man’s child.”

 

 

[popmom]

I have read this article several times as I've seen it shared on social media. Several times because it's definitely triggering for me, and I have had to wrestle with the content while trying to see it through a different "lens". I initially had the same reaction as @Slache and still do.

"Yet in less grave scenarios our American love affair with the needs and rights of the individual conceals how much sorrow we create for those we leave behind. We may see cutting off family members as courageous rather than avoidant or selfish. We can convince ourselves that it’s better to go it alone than to do the work it takes to resolve conflict. Some problems may be irresolvable, but there are also relationships that don’t need to be lost forever."

If my parents were to read this article, they would seize on this as proof of my avoidant selfishness. In their mind my issues couldn't possibly be "grave". I don't know a single person irl who is estranged from a parent for "less than grave scenarios". Not a single one. And none of us are living in celebratory mode over it. 

 

"During the past 50 years, people across the classes have been working harder than ever to be good parents. They have given up hobbies, sleep, and time with their friends in the hope of slingshotting their offspring into successful adulthood."

"But in other cases, estrangement is born from love. One of the downsides of the careful, conscientious, anxious parenting that has become common in the United States is that our children sometimes get too much of us—not only our time and dedication, but our worry, our concern. Sometimes the steady current of our movement toward children creates a wave so powerful that it threatens to push them off their own moorings; it leaves them unable to find their footing until they’re safely beyond the parent’s reach. Sometimes they need to leave the parent to find themselves."

Regarding the bolded...some of us are just trying to get our kids to the age of 25 (brain development) alive and reasonably healthy (mentally and physically). And just that bare minimum has required us to be heavily invested. 

Careful, conscientious, anxious parenting... this whole paragraph. I have experienced this to some degree with my oldest, but this is really going to vary based on the personality of the child. We were never estranged. There was tension--a lot of tension for several years. It took a lot of listening and asking good questions for both of us to get to the root of the tension. I think she would say we are in a healthy place now. It could have gone in a different direction. I agree with the writer that reconciliation usually depends on the parents taking the initiative to make amends. 

I still can't get past my perception that he is very much minimizing the experience of adult children who have had to cut off a parent. This isn't some new phenomenon. I strongly disagree that there has been some drastic shift in American values that has caused more estrangement than in the past. American values have been shifting since the birth of this country. Family estrangements have been happening since the birth of this country. I sat around the table with my husband's siblings at our holiday gathering reading letters exchanged between their grandmother, their great-grandmother, and her siblings in the late 1800s. The mother (great-grandmother) put all of her kids in an orphanage until they were old enough to work for her. It was utterly heartbreaking to read the back and forth. A classic narc family system. "There is nothing new under the sun."

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by popmom

[popmom]

I also think it's interesting that the two (correction!) three historians he quoted are baby boomers. Coontz, Cherlin and Mintz.

Edited January 11, 2023 by popmom

[Faith-manor]

I agree with you, Popmom. I felt he was making a lot of assumptions, and minimizing the sorrow that so many have endured. Abuse and severe, toxic behavior are much more common than most people, especially those who have not experienced it, are willing to admit. It is absolutely rampant in our culture. 

Estrangement is also no more common or less common. People just didn't have social media on which to talk about it far and wide. It feels like it has become common because the frequency of reporting it. But that just only represents a willingness to talk about family skeletons, and internet access. Talk to professional genealogists. Lots and lots of estrangement within families.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Faith-manor

[Lecka]

I don’t think estrangement is new, but I wonder if making an official announcement like “now we are estranged” is new.

I think it used to be a lot easier to just move away and not keep in touch.  

[SKL]

This whole discussion makes me wonder when it became a thing to talk about whether one is a "good parent."  When did it become some kind of competition, score sheet?  I guess it was somewhat inevitable that young adults would take it from there into deciding whether their parents are good enough for them.

(There are some relationships that are clearly best ended, as the linked article acknowledges.  There are legitimate estrangements in my extended family.  But the trend toward young adults treating family ties as optional / disposable is disturbing to me.)

My favorite part of the article was toward the end, where it said we need to remember that we're all imperfect human beings.  Young people need to remember this when deciding how offended they should be when their parents exhibit human limitations.  Parents need to remember that we don't have to be "right" about everything in respect to our kids.  (And bonus if the young people could also understand they aren't "right" about everything either.  :))

[popmom]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

 

My favorite part of the article was toward the end, where it said we need to remember that we're all imperfect human beings.  Young people need to remember this when deciding how offended they should be when their parents exhibit human limitations.  Parents need to remember that we don't have to be "right" about everything in respect to our kids.  (And bonus if the young people could also understand they aren't "right" about everything either.  :))

Agree that was the best part of the article. I wish he had elaborated on it the way you did. 

[Rosie_0801]

14 minutes ago, SKL said:

This whole discussion makes me wonder when it became a thing to talk about whether one is a "good parent." 

My grandmother and her neighbours used to judge each other on the whiteness of the cloth nappies hanging on the line.

Not a recent phenomenon, I'd say.

[HomeAgain]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

 But the trend toward young adults treating family ties as optional / disposable is disturbing to me.)

 

My favorite part of the article was toward the end, where it said we need to remember that we're all imperfect human beings.  Young people need to remember this when deciding how offended they should be when their parents exhibit human limitations.  Parents need to remember that we don't have to be "right" about everything in respect to our kids.  (And bonus if the young people could also understand they aren't "right" about everything either.  :))

I don't know that it's a trend, though.

The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.

I mean, this isn't a new saying. It's old enough that it's been shortened, corrupted, and pushed to say the opposite of what it intends by those it cuts out.

I think young people, more than ever, struggle with the implications that the word "imperfect" brings.  Some families have dog whistles that put people on guard: their political/religious beliefs are deemed immoral by the young adult in the family, but how does that young adult grapple with these beliefs they see as immoral and unethical and stand by the person who supports the ideas?  Your statement that young adults should be the bigger person makes a mockery of the idea that we should grow wiser as we get older, or even that there are developmental stages that we go through.  The onus is on the older adult here to remember that the younger adult is learning.  To the young adult, they've lived a life in which the older adult was first hero, then protector, then teacher.  It's hard to shrug off the concept that this person, who controlled so many aspects of life for so many years, is always doing what is right.  That in fact, they're wrong.  Because if they are wrong, it throws everything into question and choices are scrutinized more.  The older adult should still be modeling how to work through wrestling with inconsistencies.

When a parent made choices that impacted others, the child can't usually comprehend until they're at the same point in life (or further in).  My oldest had a wicked 11-12yo school year.  He saw his brother acting the same way and was in disbelief. "I wasn't that bad, was I??"  I just looked at him.  😂  Yes, child, that was you a decade ago.   It's little moments like these that are beginning to pop up.  But there has to be safety, too, to talk about how each choice impacted other people involved in them.  A parent who attempts to control memories isn't going to able to gaslight adult children that their memory of what happened is the only truth about that time.  It's just going to lead to distance between the two.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

I don't know that it's a trend, though.

The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.

I mean, this isn't a new saying. It's old enough that it's been shortened, corrupted, and pushed to say the opposite of what it intends by those it cuts out.

I think young people, more than ever, struggle with the implications that the word "imperfect" brings.  Some families have dog whistles that put people on guard: their political/religious beliefs are deemed immoral by the young adult in the family, but how does that young adult grapple with these beliefs they see as immoral and unethical and stand by the person who supports the ideas?  Your statement that young adults should be the bigger person makes a mockery of the idea that we should grow wiser as we get older, or even that there are developmental stages that we go through.  The onus is on the older adult here to remember that the younger adult is learning.  To the young adult, they've lived a life in which the older adult was first hero, then protector, then teacher.  It's hard to shrug off the concept that this person, who controlled so many aspects of life for so many years, is always doing what is right.  That in fact, they're wrong.  Because if they are wrong, it throws everything into question and choices are scrutinized more.  The older adult should still be modeling how to work through wrestling with inconsistencies.

When a parent made choices that impacted others, the child can't usually comprehend until they're at the same point in life (or further in).  My oldest had a wicked 11-12yo school year.  He saw his brother acting the same way and was in disbelief. "I wasn't that bad, was I??"  I just looked at him.  😂  Yes, child, that was you a decade ago.   It's little moments like these that are beginning to pop up.  But there has to be safety, too, to talk about how each choice impacted other people involved in them.  A parent who attempts to control memories isn't going to able to gaslight adult children that their memory of what happened is the only truth about that time.  It's just going to lead to distance between the two.

You mischaracterized what I said, but I just want to comment on one thing.

I do believe teens and young adults are better able to adjust their thinking and, if willing, to develop an understanding of what makes older people tick.  As mature adults grow older, their ability to think differently diminishes.  That's just a developmental reality IMO.

It's the flexibility of mind that gets young adults questioning their elders in the first place.  That's great, but they can also go that extra step in understanding the generation gap.  They can also learn that you can love and interact with people you disagree with.

I did say parents also have a part to play.  But I don't agree that parents are the general scapegoat for generational disharmony.

And I'll add that I think some folks on the internet (of various ages) are deliberately stirring the pot, whether to make money or to cause political instability or whatever.  Not sure whether it's more or just the same as it's always been as far as what parents are expected to put up with / adjust to.  Just because the internet says xyz doesn't mean I'm a bad parent if I don't agree with it.

[Faith-manor]

7 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

My grandmother and her neighbours used to judge each other on the whiteness of the cloth nappies hanging on the line.

Not a recent phenomenon, I'd say.

Oh yes. I have older relatives, my mother in law included (who was actually not a very good mother at all, lots of neglect there), who were judgy mcjudgy pants about their relatives' parenting. It just is not a new thing. I also had school teachers who would stand around the hallways while students were coming and going openly discussing who the good and bad parents were and openly cruising all kinds of things with the children of those parents right there within earshot. I suspect teachers today would be saving it for the teachers' lounge, or home because it would likely get them in trouble.

[Tanaqui]

HomeAgain, you're quoting a pernicious false etymology. The phrasing "Blood is thicker than water" long predates the newer "blood of the covenant" bit, by several hundred years, in both German and English. Variations on the first have been around since the  medieval period, but the "water of the womb" version has only existed for about 100 years.

It's okay if you find it more meaningful than the older version, or more true, but it is NOT the original phrasing. The original phrasing is the one we're all familiar with.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Tanaqui

[Murphy101]

I don’t think he is diminishing anything. The article is way too surface level to go deep enough to do that.

There’s a lot of truth in it. And while I’m sure a person’s adversaries could latch in to aspects of it to confirm their own bias (such as a parent saying it confirms that their child is being selfish) that is not the goal of the article and really not something the article can control.

It’s true that while many have good cause some are just being foolish and selfish and unwillingness to put in the relationship work. And that’s okay. There’s lots of reasons people are like that. Maybe they are ashamed. Maybe they fear rejection. Maybe they just don’t want to do things differently. And whether we like hearing it or not - that does create a lot of pain for those left behind.  I suppose one could decide the left behind don’t care enough to be pained by it.  Maybe that’s true sometimes but I don’t think it’s true most of the time.  And they’re being pained by it doesn’t mean it might not really be the best option for those leaving the relationship either. Life is pain and free will often sucks.

[gardenmom5]

 

On 1/10/2023 at 6:54 AM, Lecka said:

With my step-dad’s half-sister, there is a story that some relatives were mad she got a new dress because they thought she should have worse clothes than the other sisters.  The way it worked out was she and the next oldest sister would get a new dress and then the 2 younger sisters would wear their hand-me-downs.  People thought the new clothes should have gone to a blood daughter and not to the oldest daughter.  
 

To me she would be considered adopted more than a step-daughter, too, because she was raised by him since she was a baby, as his daughter.    
 

It sounds pretty offensive now but this was considered routine and normal attitudes to have where my step-dad grew up.  It was deeply shameful that his mom was pregnant by someone who abandoned her and then her husband was seen as “raising another man’s child.”

 

 

That's sad that's how he's seen.  I see him as being a real man.
As my niece is getting married in a few months to a guy who is not her baby's father, but is more of a man than the baby's father.   
 

[Dmmetler]

Two things...

 

The first is that it was a lot easier to limit contact when contact was mostly letters and phone calls were expensive. I mean, my grandmother called so rarely that the response when she did was "who died?". If my Dad hadn't wanted to keep in contact with his parents after we moved, it would have been a matter of ignoring letters. 

 

Now I've gotten spontaneous emails and social media DM's from people like my long ago (abusive to the point that there was a restraining order banning him from campus on top of the one keeping him from contacting me) ex boyfriend that occasionally pop up. It is honestly hard to hide if you have any online presence at all. 

 

At the same time, it does seem that on Twitter, especially, there are people who LOVE telling others that their family member is abusive, narcissistic, etc and that you should cut them off, divorce spouses, etc. It comes from both sides of the aisle, too. Rarely if ever does someone suggest talking out with a counselor (or clergy, if religious). 

 

 

 

[popmom]

2 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

 Rarely if ever does someone suggest talking out with a counselor (or clergy, if religious). 

 

 

 

I’m getting off topic here…but this is exactly what I asked my parents to do repeatedly before I gave up.  I offered to let them pick the elder or counselor even, but they refused. 

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

Two things...

 

The first is that it was a lot easier to limit contact when contact was mostly letters and phone calls were expensive. I mean, my grandmother called so rarely that the response when she did was "who died?". If my Dad hadn't wanted to keep in contact with his parents after we moved, it would have been a matter of ignoring letters. 

 

Now I've gotten spontaneous emails and social media DM's from people like my long ago (abusive to the point that there was a restraining order banning him from campus on top of the one keeping him from contacting me) ex boyfriend that occasionally pop up. It is honestly hard to hide if you have any online presence at all. 

 

At the same time, it does seem that on Twitter, especially, there are people who LOVE telling others that their family member is abusive, narcissistic, etc and that you should cut them off, divorce spouses, etc. It comes from both sides of the aisle, too. Rarely if ever does someone suggest talking out with a counselor (or clergy, if religious). 

 

 

 

And I think also folks who would just keep distance, but not cut off...parameters, some contact, just not intense, are forced into it because long distance calls are no longer expensive, email and internet make it crazy easy to bombard someone with unwanted messaging, and people with poor boundaries can just harass the tar out of their loved ones.

I could more easily have an occasional phone call and email thing with my brother if it cost him money to stalk me, and if I didn't live two blocks away. There could be "moderation", but proximity and the fact that it is easy and cheap to spew his toxicity on me, that I had to enforce extreme boundaries, same with my paternal niece and her very venomous mother.

So ya, I think " the good ole days" of being able to move away, and then it was 50cents or a $1 or more a minute to call, and letters are easily ignored or "lost in the mail" made it possible to limit contact, but not cut relatives out entirely.

My niece's biggest fear is her mother will use her frequent flier miles and a taxi/uber to show up on niece's doorstep. Her mom is literally not a person who can be allowed to cross the threshold. She doesn't want to have that scene on front of her 8 year old son who is allowed a once per quarter phone call with grandma on speakerphone for daddy to participate. Just ugh. When they moved, she didn't give her mom the new address, but her mother easily found them with some internet digging.

[Shoeless]

I felt like the article was overly simplistic. The reasons why people stop talking to close relatives are often complicated.  

I stopped reaching out to my mother because her rejection was annihilating my mental health.  I stand by that decision.  

Edited January 12, 2023 by MissLemon

[Carrie12345]

12 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

My niece's biggest fear is her mother will use her frequent flier miles and a taxi/uber to show up on niece's doorstep. Her mom is literally not a person who can be allowed to cross the threshold. She doesn't want to have that scene on front of her 8 year old son who is allowed a once per quarter phone call with grandma on speakerphone for daddy to participate. Just ugh. When they moved, she didn't give her mom the new address, but her mother easily found them with some internet digging.

Our previous neighborhood was gated, and it gave me SO much peace of mind!  
Our new neighborhood is not. We have a security system and dogs, but that’s just notification, not prevention.   
After so many years, I’m not as worried as I would have been earlier, but it’s still in the back of my mind. 😞 

[Kassia]

3 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Our previous neighborhood was gated, and it gave me SO much peace of mind!  
Our new neighborhood is not. We have a security system and dogs, but that’s just notification, not prevention.   
After so many years, I’m not as worried as I would have been earlier, but it’s still in the back of my mind. 😞 

I was afraid of my mother.  She was definitely a threat.  She lived out of state but there was one time I thought she was at my door and I literally hid inside my own home.  When I found out she had died, it was a big relief.  I didn't wish her any harm but I was constantly on edge wondering what she'd do next to hurt me.  (she was a narcissist and we were estranged)

Edited January 12, 2023 by Kassia