Letting go of the reins

[Porridge]

I am an inveterate control freak. I am afraid to let my kids fail. 

I guess awareness is the first step. But how do you let go of the reins and let your kids take more responsibility? I know the expected answers, but I feel like I could use some coaching  / encouragement / wisdom from the hive.

 

[Guest]

Well, you don’t say the ages of the kids, but it’s something I have to continue to choose to do even with my grown kids. 
 

I realize, upon reflection, that a *big* part of why I ever homeschooled in the first place was because I wanted to smooth all the bumps and decrease the likelihood of any pitfalls: bullies, bad teachers, bad methodologies, people who blow past the stopped school bus, school shooters, peer pressure…even wanted to shield them from lack of sleep and bad food choices. I can laugh at my nuttery now…

Now, I have a YA who is floundering a bit in some ways and the temptation to fix everything is real. But I don’t because he has to mature in this manner for himself. 
 

I just saw a cute little meme about sitting with someone who is suffering - just sitting with them, without fixing it. It was a picture of a dog with a cone on its head, lying down, and a little kitten friend was curled up inside the cone. Very sweet. And a good reminder that sometimes I just need to be the kitten curled up in the cone; I don’t need to find a way to make the cone come off sooner or be easier to bear. 
 

The way you do it is the same as anything: you decide to. You make yourself do what is necessary and not cave to your baser instincts. 
 

Good luck, from one reformed CF to another. 

[Carrie12345]

I looked at it this way:  I’d rather they failed young, while there was room to recover and a ready support system for them to fall back on and learn some lessons, then fail when the stakes were so much higher.

I think it also helps to define the word “fail”.  I mean, what’s the worst that could happen? Are we concerned about a C paper, or about an unplanned pregnancy? Repeating a class, or a substance problem? A blue color career, or homelessness?  “Fail” is a weighted word. 

[HomeAgain]

11 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I looked at it this way:  I’d rather they failed young, while there was room to recover and a ready support system for them to fall back on and learn some lessons, then fail when the stakes were so much higher.

I think it also helps to define the word “fail”.  I mean, what’s the worst that could happen? Are we concerned about a C paper, or about an unplanned pregnancy? Repeating a class, or a substance problem? A blue color career, or homelessness?  “Fail” is a weighted word. 

This.

If the result is discomfort or setback, allowing them to fail, and learning to recover from failure, is a good thing.  If the result has higher stakes, then intervention may be warranted.

[Alice]

That’s such a big question and is somewhat situational as people previously said. 
 

I’m also very much a person who wants to be in control. So if you’re asking more how to work on your own issues rather than how to handle individual situations, I’m definitely also on that journey. 
 

My oldest went on a gap year last year and traveled around the country to every state except Alaska and Hawaii. The majority of it was alone with just his 15 year old brother. I had a lot of people tell me they couldn’t imagine letting their kids do that or how brave I was. It was actually terrifying and really hard but the thing that helped the most was really realizing that even the idea of control was more of an illusion than reality. I realized I felt safer with them nearby but really I could no more prevent a car accident if they were driving around here than if they were in South Dakota. We helped a lot with prep for the trip and gave them support but then had to let them go on their own. 
 

My oldest did Scouts and one of the things I took from that was the idea of letting kids plan and fail when the consequence was discomfort but not life threatening or serious. So for example, if a kid forgot to bring something essential for cooking, the adults wouldn’t lend it to them (adults cooked separately fro themselves). Consequence was being a little hungry and maybe having your fellow Scouts annoyed with you. Usually they figured out a solution that was less than ideal but worked ok. But the adults wouldn’t let them forget water on a backpacking trip even though the kids were technically responsible for that. So I try and ask myself the question of what the consequence really is of letting a kid make the wrong choice. 
 

Two other thoughts…one is that there have been times where my kids made the “wrong” choice (different than mine) and it ended up being a good thing. So I also remind myself of that when they want to do something I think is a bad decision.
 

And then finally, I’ve realized that my need for control is often really anxiety. I tend to catastrophize things. You know…”if you fail this test, you’ll fail the class and then you might not get into any college and then you’ll end up homeless and on the streets.” (Which is clearly ridiculous on many levels). So I try and be aware of when my concern about a potential failure and my need to jump in and take control to avoid the failure is really just me catastrophizing a situation. I’ll be honest and say that is something I am still working on. 
 

 

[EmilyGF]

It really helped me to have Dutch friends back when our kids were young and to make a habit of giving our kids real freedom with real consequences.

Here are some examples:

• I don't tell my kids what they can or can't buy with their money, but I do not lend them money at the store to buy something if they didn't plan on it before. If they bring their money with them, they can buy whatever junk they want. 
• My kids go places by themselves as soon as societally-reasonable. I make them draw a map and explain where they are going so they don't get lost. This gives them opportunities to make mistakes and fix them by themselves, thus developing self-confidence. They don't get a cell phone until they've been doing this for a long time. (My kids start going to the park alone around 8.)
• I encourage them to work for people outside the family early. Then, if they fail, the consequences are small, but they get feedback from outside the family.

Emily

[Lecka]

One of my kids has to be very independent in order to feel like he is making his own choices.  If he doesn’t feel like he’s making his own choices, he doesn’t feel like he is responsible, and he just doesn’t do things.

It’s counter-intuitive to me.  

I got advice from someone who saw this dynamic with us, who saw my son’s side from an outsider’s perspective.

Anyway — someone talked to me about it, and she was right.  He does things on his own better than when he has help.  When he has help, he doesn’t feel like he has responsibility and I guess this kills his motivation.  It’s not something that clicks with me but it’s what I do because it is better for him.  

[Rosie_0801]

Everything but death or making babies with the wrong person can be mended.

The ultimate aim is healthy and competent adults. I figure if my interference will promote health and competence, I should. if it will get in the way of those things, I oughtn't. Mostly interfering is explaining how to think about whatever it is, not doing the thing for her.

One good indication that it's time to hand over more responsibility is when you just don't want to it for them any more!

It's school holidays here; my kid is on her budgeting challenge, so I'm not cooking for her. I've got an acquaintance who is ten years older than her and has less experience in feeding themselves. I don't want my kid to be like that! (Happily, neither does she.) They are 25 and I don't know that they'd know how to feed themselves properly for a week on the budget I give dd. I do know they've never had to try.

I'm also finding, after years of dedicated "mamma schooling" that I don't really want to so much any more. There are some things I want her to read that I really don't want to read to her, so I'm cutting back a bit on reading aloud so there's time for her to read more. She has a busy schedule so doesn't get much reading time during the week, during term time.

[livetoread]

When your kids have anxiety, it really complicates those decisions because even though mistakes and failures are actually little, to the kid, they are huge and cause for negative spiraling. I was pretty involved in trying to help my kids work through this, and I got a lot of pushback from family about being too controlling, but now that they are young adults, I wish I had been even more involved when they were younger - not so much in protecting them but more active in helping them process their failure. 

Here's an example. My then 14 yo daughter was taking an online English class and procrastinated on her paper. She's a very good writer, but simply couldn't get started. I offered to sit with her a couple of times but she refused. Night before it is due she is sobbing in front of the computer. I sit with her, encourage her to just start writing anything, do some deep breathing etc. I know she will get it done and she'll get an A (she did, though it took me sleeping on the floor of the den with her while she sobbed) and I assumed that going through all of that would help her learn that a) she was a good writer and would have more confidence for the next time, and b) procrastinating that much feels terrible and do less of it.

Instead, even though her feedback on the paper was stellar, all she took from it was the feeling of self-loathing and her failure to start soon enough blah blah and she developed even more of an aversion to writing. Eventual success (excellent paper with stellar feedback from her teacher) just didn't register.

She simply couldn't learn from failure and even with lots of therapy, she still as a young adult struggles enormously with mistakes and fear of mistakes. So yes, just a cautionary tale that you can't assume your kid will learn from small failures and mistakes, and assuming they will get over it isn't necessarily true. It's hard to know when your kid is a younger tween what's anxiety and what is normal puberty nuttiness, but anxiety can make any learning from mistakes very complicated.

[saraha]

I am definitely having trouble not being in control. I’m pretty sure I’m going to grind my teeth to nubs. Some days I do better than others.

[TechWife]

8 hours ago, WTM said:

I am an inveterate control freak. I am afraid to let my kids fail. 

I guess awareness is the first step. But how do you let go of the reins and let your kids take more responsibility? I know the expected answers, but I feel like I could use some coaching  / encouragement / wisdom from the hive.

 

 

Know and fully realize that you have never been able to control your children and never will be able to control your children. They have always made their own choices. If they succeed it will be because they chose to make the choices involved in success. If they fail it will be because they choose to make the choices involved in failure. They define what is success and failure. Parental control is and always has been fiction.

Know and fully realize that you are not responsible for the choices your children make. You have never been responsible for their choices. They are responsible for their choices. You are responsible for providing for their physical & emotional needs, for nurturing & teaching them - sometimes part of doing that involves prioritizing their needs over yours,  financial sacrifice as well as  parent imposed rewards and consequences. That's it.

This may sound harsh - but it's the truth of it. Parenting isn't about control, it's about nurturing on every level. "Letting go of control" really means acknowledging we never had, and never should have tried to have, control in the first place.

Edited September 21, 2022 by TechWife

[Ali in OR]

At what age?

For me, I let go of the reins early in their high school career--that's also when they transitioned to public school. I remember with my older dd I checked in on math the first semester just to make sure she got started on the right foot (I'm a math teacher). But she did fine, and oversight was not needed at all for youngest who always knew exactly what percent she had in every class. This is the academic side. There is still room for mom in the areas of learning to drive, learning to cook, etc, in high school. But our goal was always to send them away to college (as dh and I both did) and they have to be able to solve their own problems by then. High school was the training ground. They're doing fine as young adults.

 

[Tree Frog]

We loosened the reins when our kids were juniors and were completely hands off when they were seniors. One of us felt very strongly that as parents, we needed to be able to guide them if they asked for help. It was easier to see they needed help when they lived at home rather than waiting until college. The other of us had a more difficult time letting go, especially irt money and budgeting, and tried to maintain control while they were in college. It caused a very difficult summer when parent was pretty much forced to let go with one kid. The other was an easier transition, and, despite being a senior in college, the youngest hasn't yet transitioned away from budget help at his request.

I think if you can take the long view and look at your goals for your kids in 5 or 10 years and work backwards to how to active the goals and let them go a little bit at a time, it might be a little easier. 

[pinball]

8 hours ago, WTM said:

I am an inveterate control freak. I am afraid to let my kids fail. 

I guess awareness is the first step. But how do you let go of the reins and let your kids take more responsibility? I know the expected answers, but I feel like I could use some coaching  / encouragement / wisdom from the hive.

 

What ages are you talking about? And failing at what?

Let your 10 yo “fail” at cooking or baking? Go ahead 

Let your 10 yo fail 4th grade? Absolutely not

[SKL]

I'm on this train too.

My kids are also anxious control freaks, so this can get interesting!

Most options are my kids' to choose or opt out, but I do insist on a basic level of activity/engagement/study/life preparation.  I stay out of it unless they fall below that level.

But, for certain types of things, I've had a practice of signing them up and then telling them as the date draws near.  Why?  Because they will pretty much 100% say NO if I present it as a choice.  And that would have significant, long-term consequences.

So it recently hit me that I should get my kids working on understanding:  why is it always NO?  Why is that a problem?  What can we do to change it?

I think independence in kids is great, but it is difficult to know where to draw the line.  My kids rarely try to leave their comfort zone, and I wish they would.  But then again, they can be influenced to do things that can be damaging.  In 2022, I think I made my first backward move as far as loosening the reins.  I started attending track meets, after noting behaviors and risks that didn't feel right to me.  I don't hold my kid on a leash, but she knows I'm there to notice funny behavior, and to be a safe place should she need an escape.

I talk a lot and try to be a safe person for my kids to talk to, in the hopes of reducing the risks of bad decisions.  Ultimately, none of us thinks I have real control, but I think that little voice I place in their heads does make some difference.

[SKL]

Sorry dp!

Edited September 21, 2022 by SKL

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

One good indication that it's time to hand over more responsibility is when you just don't want to it for them any more!

 

So Practical and so wise

[Guest]

2 hours ago, livetoread said:

When your kids have anxiety, it really complicates those decisions because even though mistakes and failures are actually little, to the kid, they are huge and cause for negative spiraling. I was pretty involved in trying to help my kids work through this, and I got a lot of pushback from family about being too controlling, but now that they are young adults, I wish I had been even more involved when they were younger - not so much in protecting them but more active in helping them process their failure. 

Here's an example. My then 14 yo daughter was taking an online English class and procrastinated on her paper. She's a very good writer, but simply couldn't get started. I offered to sit with her a couple of times but she refused. Night before it is due she is sobbing in front of the computer. I sit with her, encourage her to just start writing anything, do some deep breathing etc. I know she will get it done and she'll get an A (she did, though it took me sleeping on the floor of the den with her while she sobbed) and I assumed that going through all of that would help her learn that a) she was a good writer and would have more confidence for the next time, and b) procrastinating that much feels terrible and do less of it.

Instead, even though her feedback on the paper was stellar, all she took from it was the feeling of self-loathing and her failure to start soon enough blah blah and she developed even more of an aversion to writing. Eventual success (excellent paper with stellar feedback from her teacher) just didn't register.

She simply couldn't learn from failure and even with lots of therapy, she still as a young adult struggles enormously with mistakes and fear of mistakes. So yes, just a cautionary tale that you can't assume your kid will learn from small failures and mistakes, and assuming they will get over it isn't necessarily true. It's hard to know when your kid is a younger tween what's anxiety and what is normal puberty nuttiness, but anxiety can make any learning from mistakes very complicated.

this is a very real issue for us, too. Thank you for verbalizing and acknowledging that it can be different and harder with kids who have anxiety. 

mine has anxiety, and letting go and allowing failure sometimes impacts the self esteem so, so profoundly . But I get mixed up trying to figure out how much support to give and how much is too much.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Quill said:

 

I realize, upon reflection, that a *big* part of why I ever homeschooled in the first place was because I wanted to smooth all the bumps and decrease the likelihood of any pitfalls: bullies, bad teachers, bad methodologies, people who blow past the stopped school bus, school shooters, peer pressure…even wanted to shield them from lack of sleep and bad food choices. I can laugh at my nuttery now…

 

Yes. The homeschool thing makes it more complicated, because by definition you as a parent do have more control. 

[Arcadia]

9 hours ago, WTM said:

 

I guess awareness is the first step. But how do you let go of the reins and let your kids take more responsibility? 

I started by letting my teens be responsible for things that have minimal consequences. This is also something that you have to adjust for the child you have. For example, I passed my DS17 the key fob to our gated community when he was in 9th grade so that he can let himself in. If he had misplaced the fob, it would cost us $30 for HOA to replace it and they will disable the missing fob. So consequence is bearable.
Things like waking up for exams, if they set their alarms but slept through the alarm, I would wake them up. DS17 is so anxious and excited that he is usually awake by 5am for exams (if he isn’t tossing and turning all night) but DS16 is a sound sleeper so it would be silly to not wake him up for something like AP exams or SAT. 
Things like forgetting to bring lunchbox or snacks for themselves, they are at an age where they can go hungry or use their pocket money to get food. If they have two classes consecutively on the same day, they would usually just dig into their pocket money and buy something that would keep them full for a few hours. 
As for academic stuff, DS17 could handle the admin paperwork by himself earlier than DS16. Dealing with assignments wasn’t an issue since Canvas made everything (assignments, grades, inbox, readings) under one roof.   DS17 is capable of fronting his own academic stuff including college applications but he knows we are there if there is something he needs help on.  For important emails, he would still ask me to proofread. As for DS16, he is starting to be ready to front his own academic stuff. I was a latchkey child since 1st grade. I do not expect either of my kids to be able to handle being home alone at that age, so it is really adjusting the “tomato stalking” to the child you have. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Ali in OR said:

At what age?

For me, I let go of the reins early in their high school career--that's also when they transitioned to public school. I remember with my older dd I checked in on math the first semester just to make sure she got started on the right foot (I'm a math teacher). But she did fine, and oversight was not needed at all for youngest who always knew exactly what percent she had in every class. This is the academic side. There is still room for mom in the areas of learning to drive, learning to cook, etc, in high school. But our goal was always to send them away to college (as dh and I both did) and they have to be able to solve their own problems by then. High school was the training ground. They're doing fine as young adults.

 

The child I’m thinking of is 12.

 My 14 year old is very independent. It’s not hard to let go of the reins for the older one— I’m confident in their EF skills and, importantly, in their emotional capacity to handle set backs.

[fairfarmhand]

3 minutes ago, WTM said:

this is a very real issue for us, too. Thank you for verbalizing and acknowledging that it can be different and harder with kids who have anxiety. 

mine has anxiety, and letting go and allowing failure sometimes impacts the self esteem so, so profoundly . But I get mixed up trying to figure out how much support to give and how much is too much.

Yes, and the maturity of the kids that I HAVE makes a difference. My ds at 14 is an entirely different kid than his sisters were at 14. I have to stand over him, so to speak, or he will fail, and instead of learning the lesson and resolving to do differently, it spirals into self loathing and "I'm hopeless" feelings. He;s a very young 14 in maturity so he needs more scaffolding. I trust him in some things (he can handle lawn mowers, chain saws, and lots of outdoor chores. but struggles with executive function in school) but not others. 

It's similar with my 17 yo right now; she's going through a very rough patch of depression and anxiety, and that means that I have to MAKE her do things that are good for her because she honestly doesn't care about failure very much. Which isn't a big deal in some things, but I will not let her fail her Senior year. Nope. Sorry. No good lessons will be learned there. She's improving, and starting to finally gain some traction, but after waiting 18 months for her to "decide" to practice driving enough to pass her drivers license test, (which she REALLY WANTED TO DO but lacked the motivation to make herself do) I finally just made the appointment for 8 weeks out and gave her a deadline. And she passed. 

So for failure, some things are long term (like my dd and her senior year) and others are not. I don't care that she was 17.5 before she managed to take a drivers license test, but she needed me to step in and make a deadline.  And I told her "If you fail, we will reschedule for another 8 weeks out and you will take it again. And sooner or later, you will pass it. But at some point, you have to try something. Failing stuff isn't the end of the world, and fear of failing is no reason to not try. I'd rather you try hard and fail something than to not try at all. " 

I have some very driven and anxious kids. So they really hate failing. We repeat around here "TRY SOMETHING." Trying hard and failing is WAY better than not doing anything. If you make a mistake working and trying we will be ok with that. 

[fairfarmhand]

24 minutes ago, WTM said:

The child I’m thinking of is 12.

 My 14 year old is very independent. It’s not hard to let go of the reins for the older one— I’m confident in their EF skills and, importantly, in their emotional capacity to handle set backs.

12 is such a transitional year.

For me, I had to just judge what the kid was capable of and what they genuinely didn't have a clue about.

My ds has terrible organizational/Executive function skills. I've had to explicitly teach certain things. Stuff like "Always put your tae kwon do uniform here so you can find it." and "When you wear your last pair of underwear, you must get your laundry to to the laundry room to wash your clothes or you won't have any." And "Here's how you study." "Here's how you prioritize your school work." 

I make huge accommodations for kids who are genuinely clueless vs. those who are being lazy. And I figured out that I had to explicitly teach skills to my son that I never had to teach to my dds. Even now at 14 we go through the checklist before leaving the house. Deodorant? Toothbrushing? Did you eat? Clean clothes with no stains? It blows my mind that 14 year olds will not only wipe their noses on their shirts but also wear the shirt out in public. Who knew you had to teach a kid that? We're working on not doing that, but I'm not going to have him going around grossing out everyone he meets because the social consequences would be too great. And that's just nasty.

There is a time for consequences of your actions, but that's not ALL the time. 

[wintermom]

My dh and I have loosened the reins gradually over time, which I'm pretty sure would be a normal thing for most parents. As we see our dc develop and gain the capacity to take on different skills, or if the dc simply start doing them on their own, then they are experiencing independence. Each child is a little different, and the kinds of experiences they have growing up differs, too. 

I think it's a little tough to see the way to "let go of the reins" in our own children, because we don't always know the exact time they became capable. Their growth and development has been so gradual, and we have few comparison child available to observe what other similar-aged people are doing.

I had a bit of an ah-ha moment when I hosted 2 exchange students a few summers ago. They were 16 years old, but it was their first time living away from home and one was especially nervous. The subject their getting their summer jobs daily came up, and I offered a bike to one and a bus pass to the other (depending on their summer job location). Both were not very excited, and I could have offered to drive them, but I intentionally did not. I believed that they would love the feeling of independence, and the initial "hardship" of learning the route, etc., would be well worth it. Sure enough, they both ended up really enjoying their mode of transportation. And the especially nervous girl even had issues with her bike one day, fixed the problem, and was thrilled with learning that she could do it. 

[Alice]

I think if you have a 12 year old who has some issues with anxiety then it’s not controlling to be pretty involved. I have a kid with anxiety and ADHD and I’m much more involved with him because I look at it as providing scaffolding and helping him figure out life skills. I feel like if I made him suffer the consequences for every small thing he might forget if not reminded, it would be just a staggering amount of "failure" which would be really problematic for his mental health. He’s way harder on himself than he needs to be  over small mistakes/failures. 

Years ago someone posted here about something different and made the statement that parents need to remember that your freshman in high school is not a senior and does not need to have the skills of a senior. And the senior in high school isn’t a senior in college. I can’t remember who it was so can’t give them credit (maybe Nan for those who have been here awhile?). But I remember it very clearly and it has been very helpful to me. I tend to think that if I jump in with my 15 year old, than I might still need to jump in with my 18 year old. But sometimes jumping in is more a way of showing them what to do at 15 so that they can then do it on their own at 18. 

[Guest]

We had decided to move more towards unschooling ( or bare minimum schooling) at the beginning of the school year. The bare minimum ended up being more than I thought, because DS didn’t want to stop certain subjects. (I started a thread on this in the general boards, and appreciate everyone’s helpful input!) At the time I was determined to let him take more ownership of his learning. But I’ve found myself “helping” him a lot. Double checking his work before he turns it in (Derek Owens math).  Prodding him to do the next thing. Etc.

 

 The older kid is probably exceptionally above average in terms of EF skills, so it’s really hard for me to gauge what is age appropriate

Edited September 21, 2022 by WTM

[Elizabeth86]

4 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Everything but death or making babies with the wrong person can be mended.

The ultimate aim is healthy and competent adults. I figure if my interference will promote health and competence, I should. if it will get in the way of those things, I oughtn't. Mostly interfering is explaining how to think about whatever it is, not doing the thing for her.

One good indication that it's time to hand over more responsibility is when you just don't want to it for them any more!

It's school holidays here; my kid is on her budgeting challenge, so I'm not cooking for her. I've got an acquaintance who is ten years older than her and has less experience in feeding themselves. I don't want my kid to be like that! (Happily, neither does she.) They are 25 and I don't know that they'd know how to feed themselves properly for a week on the budget I give dd. I do know they've never had to try.

I'm also finding, after years of dedicated "mamma schooling" that I don't really want to so much any more. There are some things I want her to read that I really don't want to read to her, so I'm cutting back a bit on reading aloud so there's time for her to read more. She has a busy schedule so doesn't get much reading time during the week, during term time.

Lol I love this! You’re not wrong!

[Arcadia]

3 minutes ago, WTM said:

. The bare minimum ended up being more than I thought, because DS didn’t want to stop certain subjects.
At the time I was determined to let him take more ownership of his learning. But I’ve found myself “helping” him a lot. Double checking his work before he turns it in (Derek Owens math).  Prodding him to do the next thing. Etc.

When DS16 was 12, I was going through chemotherapy for the second half of his 8th grade. All he did for 8th grade was AP Chem and AP Physics C (E &M, Mechanics) and he did them well. However both Moskaluk and Lanctot had very clear assignments and deadlines and whatever household stuff we don’t have was easy to get from the supermarket down the street. So for an 8th grader, he basically had two subjects for credit and two subjects (Chinese, German) at a relaxed not for credit pace. He gets scolded by his Chinese and German teachers if he forgot to complete his homework. Compared to public school 8th graders, his workload was very light. 
 

Why would you need to double check his work before he turns it in? I can understand if it is for a dual enrollment class because it is a permanent record. I don’t see a need for the class you mentioned. My kids took math classes that are not for credit. I reminded them to turn in their homework every week. However, if they turn in sloppy or late work, they get a bad grade which won’t follow them for life.  DS16 had a D grade for a dual enrollment class which he retook and got an A. He didn’t have a meltdown over the D which was great because it means he is better able to cope with setbacks now then when he was younger. A not so good grade would had him in a crying fit when he was younger. 

[Lecka]

My son I mentioned before, has worse anxiety about things when I’m more involved.

He thinks I think he can’t do it on his own, and then that hurts his confidence, and then that can be what starts him into negative thinking.  
 

Well I did not mean to have this dynamic, but we did have it.

Now that dynamic has died down and I can say more.  
 

I don’t think this is a common dynamic, wouldn’t it be something we heard more about as parents if it were?

 

But the person who saw it with us, spotted it as something she recognized, and she had known kids with my son’s personality before and had some insight into it.

 

Some things people are mentioning that help their kids (or one of their kids), would have backfired with him when our dynamic was what it was.  
 

But there are things I can do with my other kids with no problem, that this one is just so sensitive about, and he thinks I am a more judgmental, picky, perfectionist person than I think I deserve.  
 

At the same time, I do think I was stressing him out and he would withdraw some and then I would push more, and he would withdraw more, and he would get more passive, and I would get more active, thinking it was my role and a good thing to do. 
 

But it turned out to backfire.

 

It’s not like this with my other kids.

 

 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

Yes, and the maturity of the kids that I HAVE makes a difference.

This.

It has to be within sight and grasp for them and for the parent to be a useful exercise, I think. There may be exceptions, but probably not tons of them.

24 minutes ago, Alice said:

I think if you have a 12 year old who has some issues with anxiety then it’s not controlling to be pretty involved. I have a kid with anxiety and ADHD and I’m much more involved with him because I look at it as providing scaffolding and helping him figure out life skills. I feel like if I made him suffer the consequences for every small thing he might forget if not reminded, it would be just a staggering amount of "failure" which would be really problematic for his mental health. He’s way harder on himself than he needs to be  over small mistakes/failures. 

Years ago someone posted here about something different and made the statement that parents need to remember that your freshman in high school is not a senior and does not need to have the skills of a senior. And the senior in high school isn’t a senior in college. I can’t remember who it was so can’t give them credit (maybe Nan for those who have been here awhile?). But I remember it very clearly and it has been very helpful to me. I tend to think that if I jump in with my 15 year old, than I might still need to jump in with my 18 year old. But sometimes jumping in is more a way of showing them what to do at 15 so that they can then do it on their own at 18. 

I love this.

I have non-neurotypical kids (2e, variety of diagnoses), and they need different supports from another and from typical peers. I just got The Loving Push out of the library (Temple Grandin and another author). I found it really helpful to gauge where I am being hands on enough and not too much. It's not new information to me right now, but it was a nice check in, and I highly recommend it for those who have ASD kids who are not likely to get a social pass for expected behavior. 

24 minutes ago, WTM said:

 The older kid is probably exceptionally above average in terms of EF skills, so it’s really hard for me to gauge what is age appropriate

That's good context to know. Sometimes the areas our kids need help with involve learning to say no, slow down, not burn out, etc. I knew some peers in college who sometimes took on too much (objectively so--not getting enough sleep, enough extra classes they required special permission from the dean, lots of extracurriculars), and while things turned out okay, that's not always a guarantee, and there were plenty of almost bad things that happened along the way (like passing out from exhaustion). 

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, Lecka said:

I don’t think this is a common dynamic, wouldn’t it be something we heard more about as parents if it were?

I don't think it is common. I think a related dynamic is someone who can either manage things (with some struggle) or have them managed (and respond to prompts, etc.) but doesn't have the interpersonal or EF skills to utilize help effectively. I am pretty sure I know one of those, but it's not my kid.

[wintermom]

34 minutes ago, WTM said:

We had decided to move more towards unschooling ( or bare minimum schooling) at the beginning of the school year. The bare minimum ended up being more than I thought, because DS didn’t want to stop certain subjects. (I started a thread on this in the general boards, and appreciate everyone’s helpful input!) At the time I was determined to let him take more ownership of his learning. But I’ve found myself “helping” him a lot. Double checking his work before he turns it in (Derek Owens math).  Prodding him to do the next thing. Etc.

 

 The older kid is probably exceptionally above average in terms of EF skills, so it’s really hard for me to gauge what is age appropriate

I wasn't assuming that a homeschool parent would ever "let go of the reins" for a 12 year old. Self-directed education takes a whole ton of maturity, and even then it's a tough slog. Perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding your original question. It was very vague.

Edited September 21, 2022 by wintermom

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

Why would you need to double check his work before he turns it in? I can understand if it is for a dual enrollment class because it is a permanent record. I don’t see a need for the class you mentioned.

2e with anxiety. Knows how to do things, great with math concepts, but had trouble executing accurately. Anxiety gets in the way. has low self esteem if he performs poorly. We have slowed down Math a lot to try to mitigate this. He is accelerated, so it doesn’t matter if he makes super slow progress this year. (Please don’t quote) I’m wondering if I should just let him do “poorly” (it might mean getting a B or C)— which in my mind doesn’t count in 7th grade (though do I need to put algebra and the grade he earned on the high school transcript eventually??) but may have an impact on his self esteem.

1 hour ago, wintermom said:

I wasn't assuming that a homeschool parent would ever "let go of the reins" for a 12 year old. Self-directed education takes a whole ton of maturity, and even then it's a tough slog.

this is where having a very different older sibling makes it hard for me to gauge what’s appropriate. Older DC was fully capable of self directed learning from an early age. 
 

My original question was vague because I’m curious to hear broadly how people think about the topic, and because this issue for me is related not only to how I parent DS. I’m wondering whether I do it in other areas of my life, or with DD as well.  It’s so helpful to hear all your perspectives.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Alice said:

I think if you have a 12 year old who has some issues with anxiety then it’s not controlling to be pretty involved. I have a kid with anxiety and ADHD and I’m much more involved with him because I look at it as providing scaffolding and helping him figure out life skills. I feel like if I made him suffer the consequences for every small thing he might forget if not reminded, it would be just a staggering amount of "failure" which would be really problematic for his mental health. He’s way harder on himself than he needs to be  over small mistakes/failures. 

Years ago someone posted here about something different and made the statement that parents need to remember that your freshman in high school is not a senior and does not need to have the skills of a senior. And the senior in high school isn’t a senior in college. I can’t remember who it was so can’t give them credit (maybe Nan for those who have been here awhile?). But I remember it very clearly and it has been very helpful to me. I tend to think that if I jump in with my 15 year old, than I might still need to jump in with my 18 year old. But sometimes jumping in is more a way of showing them what to do at 15 so that they can then do it on their own at 18. 

Thank you for this

[Arcadia]

Regarding UC/CSU apps. All math and foreign languages classes taken in 7th and 8th grade are allowed to be put on the transcript but there is no requirement to do so. So there is zero requirement to put derek owens math on the transcript. Honestly, a AP Calc BC score or a dual enrollment calculus class would fulfil the a-g math requirement. As an aside, DS16 has a passing AP Calc BC score as well as As for dual enrollment calculus, the DE calculus helped bump up his community college GPA. DS17 took Linear Algebra twice, the first was not for credit and the second time as DE, it also helped bumped his community college GPA score which comes in useful for transfer applications.

Like I said, DS16 used to be a crying mess when he didn’t do well. My aim for both kids is to be as resilient as they are able to be. I want them to get their Ds and Fs while at home so that they would have us as emotional support while they deal with the sadness. DS16’s D was from a teacher that has very high expectations and was new to teaching so we could not use rate my professor and it was a summer class so he could not drop the class in time. I want my kids to know that it is not the end of the world if they didn’t get As, to be able to laugh at the joke/meme that anything other than A is a fail for asians. People do have stereotypical higher expectations from asian students. I want my kids to be able to understand the stereotypical view but not feel a failure for not living up to it. 
How much emotional weight does your son put on the derek owens grade? I know for some things my kids want to do well because of pride but it doesn’t hurt them emotionally if they didn’t do that well. For example, DS16 needed a 3 for ap human geography exam to get credit for a humanities subject for his associate degree completion. He would be delighted with a 5 but he only cares that he gets minimum 3 so that he gets his credit for one humanities class. He got a 4 but he would have dance a jig even for a 3. 
What I did was allow my kids to do badly on things that would not hurt their self esteem as badly. My kids are bad at sports in general so they get sad when their tennis classmates get promoted to a higher level before they do. However, it is something that they get over with within 24hrs. If it is a class that matters a lot to them, then I do more prodding so that when they get their grades, they know they have put in their effort and not feel like they slip because of insufficient executive function skills.

So if the DO math grade means a lot to your son, by all means hand hold as much as needed. Loosen the reins on whatever would have less emotional impact. 12 for some boys is the start of puberty and it can be a very emotionally wacky time similar to the effects of PMS. So cut yourself and your child some grace. 

[Rosie_0801]

One thing I've had work with a perfectionist kid (not mine) was telling them that other people were better at them at trying and trying is a really important thing to be good at. This was about 25 years ago and I can still remember the shock as they realised that I was right, that younger, less competent at pretty much everything kid *was* way better than her at trying. The kid I was talking to was immediately 500% better at trying and for the rest of the time I knew her, jumped in with both feet whatever was going on.

I don't know if that'd work on other kids, but it sure was a coup with this one.

[Arcadia]

I am assuming you have testing done. What has helped us was playing to each child’s strength while helping them with their weaknesses. Both my kids do not have 2e diagnosis but DS16 has a very 2e profile while DS17 has his weakness despite whatever his wisc score is. So loosening the reins look very different for both. I still order and pick up DS16’s dual enrollment textbooks for him. He would read the syllabi once they are put up on Canvas and verify that he has the correct textbooks for his classes. 

[ScoutTN]

So much depends on the kid. Non NT kids need different scaffolding and it can be hard when my kid isn’t doing what most kids his age are.  Sometimes Dh and I don’t see that a kid needs more independence or sometimes we give it too early. So much trial and error. 
 

 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, WTM said:

2e with anxiety. Knows how to do things, great with math concepts, but had trouble executing accurately. Anxiety gets in the way. has low self esteem if he performs poorly. We have slowed down Math a lot to try to mitigate this. He is accelerated, so it doesn’t matter if he makes super slow progress this year. (Please don’t quote) I’m wondering if I should just let him do “poorly” (it might mean getting a B or C)— which in my mind doesn’t count in 7th grade (though do I need to put algebra and the grade he earned on the high school transcript eventually??) but may have an impact on his self esteem.

If you do outside classes, it might be different, but we have done most of our work ungraded. I use the rubric of how much grief they give combined with a sense of whether they’ve covered things well. Grades have ended up being validated with testing just fine. If it’s an option, it might lessen anxiety and allow typical pacing.

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, WTM said:

self esteem.

My 4 and 5 year old I give them strategies to handle their fails. So, we may talk about strategies to mitigate their fails you know check your answer, do your work, practice whatever. More importantly we talk about strategies after and during the failure. During the failure when they feel like they can't complete the task and it's looking like it's going to be failure we talk about things like taking a break (it's important to schedule it in such a way that there is a getting back to it time), for somethings we will voice out or write out that it will fail but we bring it to it's failed conclusion (afterwards we can think on how we can be successful next time), or we say hey it seems we aren't' ready for this activity what is going to bring us to readiness (may involve breaking down the problem, finding missing knowledge, etc.) They do this part with me, not just I decided/find out the missing pieces and tell them.

After the failure our strategies are to grieve/be angry get all the negative feelings out, then how can we improve next time (if I'm stupid comes out of this I rephrase is as missing knowledge, so let's figure out what this missing piece is). How we can improve can be that we can't accomplish this task right now and I need other things to build up to be ready at a later time. It's also the space to decide this task isn't worth the effort/sacrifice.

90% of my kids things because they are 5 and 4 don't matter at all. They can absolutely "just get over it" but we've all been told that and it's not helpful; so this is what I do for all the things that my kids are struggling with.     

    

[sgo95]

My oldest has a struggled with a lot of anxiety and EF skills. She's now a junior in college doing much better, but I provided a ton more scaffolding for her than my other kids. 

Two things I wonder about:

1) How anxious are you? I had a certain amount of difficulty letting go because I didn't realize how much anxiety I was feeling and not managing well.

2) If your child is 12 and accelerated in math, are you focused on the right priority by helping your child avoid low scores in Derek Owens? (Btw, we use and like DO too). IOW, is your approach helping your child along the path to learning how to manage their thoughts and feelings? Or are you just helping them avoid negative emotions altogether? Making progress in math at this stage may not be more important than making progress dealing with anxiety. Which will have a greater impact on them being able to find peace and fulfillment later in life?

Generally sending you ((hugs)). I think I know how hard this is...wanting so badly to help but not knowing exactly how...

Edited to add: maybe DO is not a good fit right now?

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by sgo95

[Guest]

On 9/21/2022 at 4:33 PM, sgo95 said:

My oldest has a struggled with a lot of anxiety and EF skills. She's now a junior in college doing much better, but I provided a ton more scaffolding for her than my other kids. 

Two things I wonder about:

1) How anxious are you? I had a certain amount of difficulty letting go because I didn't realize how much anxiety I was feeling and not managing well.

2) If your child is 12 and accelerated in math, are you focused on the right priority by helping your child avoid low scores in Derek Owens? (Btw, we use and like DO too). IOW, is your approach helping your child along the path to learning how to manage their thoughts and feelings? Or are you just helping them avoid negative emotions altogether? Making progress in math at this stage may not be more important than making progress dealing with anxiety. Which will have a greater impact on them being able to find peace and fulfillment later in life?

Generally sending you ((hugs)). I think I know how hard this is...wanting so badly to help but not knowing exactly how...

Edited to add: maybe DO is not a good fit right now?

 

1.  Thank you for noting this.  It hasn’t been easy and I’ve been in therapy, too. I should talk to the therapist about this question.

2. I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at about DO. would  you mind elaborating? Making progress in math is not the goal right now.

[Lecka]

Just for how I took the previous comment.  
 

If you are saying you are checking DO homework twice before it is turned in, I take it as saying — maybe that’s not necessary.

I don’t take it as having any problem with DO or your choice of using DO.  

[sgo95]

1 hour ago, WTM said:

2. I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at about DO. would  you mind elaborating? Making progress in math is not the goal right now.

My point was to ask what you're effectively accomplishing by double-checking homework before it's graded by Derek Owens.  Smoothing over the math experience for your DC (dear child) could be viewed as prioritizing progress in math over progress in emotional/psychological development because your DC doesn't have to deal with the distorted thinking about low scores.

Some more questions: If your DC truly will be damaged now by imperfect scores, when do you think this situation would change? Why is this not a good time for your family to address this challenge? Is it possible you're catastrophizing the consequences to your DC (dear child) of receiving low(er) scores? By "saving" your DC, are you inadvertently prolonging their struggle with anxiety/perfectionism? Without realizing it, are you trying to make yourself feel less anxious when you try insulate your DC from emotional upset?

When I look back at my own experience, it sure felt like I really needed to step in to help my oldest manage her emotions. It felt totally necessary and helpful...until I exhausted myself emotionally and I literally had to stop. We had a very hard year but she was able to eventually make some breakthroughs in thinking and managing herself. She will never be neurotypical but she has grown so much and is accomplishing her goals without me constantly acting as her emotional breaker switch.

I hope you feel that I'm not judging your situation. Your posts just made me think of my own struggles and I may be projecting them onto you.

RE: my last question about Derek Owens as a good fit- maybe use Derek Owen's half-price option that allows you to grade their work. Or I heard Mr. D's self-paced math classes has a lot of second chances in re-doing work.

[gardenmom5]

know that allowing them to 'fail' in the small stuff - stuff that isn't going to matter next week or next year,  - they are learning better how to take responsibility so they can best be successful for the big stuff that does matter long term.

don't take things so personally.

[Indigo Blue]

IME, it’s all centered around intuitiveness. Just intuitively knowing with each and every phase of their young life when to give a little more independence and when to not. 
 

I don’t know that it can be said that you don’t have control of them. I think you do. Maybe control isn’t the best word, but this is the way life works. Even for animals. The parent has to have some “control” while they are young. They just do. 
 

It’s like the letter “V”. It starts out with the parents protecting and keeping their children close (the starting point at the bottom of the “V”. Later, as they gain experience, maturity, and wisdom, you gradually move into the wider part of the V, until such time in life when the “V” is so wide and they are nearing full control of their life, and the parent has guided them all along until the V is so wide the now young adult has reached full independence from the parent. 
 

And it’s different for each child. 
 

That’s what parents are for. I would never be afraid to guide them in this way. And the whole helicopter parent thing is nonsense, as long as you truly aren’t smothering and stifling. It’s what gives them confidence and the feeling of being grounded. 
 

Having said all that, for me, things got easier as soon as they did their “first” of any given thing that would be considered a bit nerve wracking. For example, their first time driving alone or their first airplane flight alone. I didn’t always let on about my worrying, but I inwardly could deal better once they were handling these things by themselves.

To the OP….don’t be afraid to be the parent. Just find a good balance. Maintain closeness with them, while guiding them wider and wider through the V. Use your own intuition and don’t cave to peer pressure that you are somehow doing it wrong if you are seemingly, to others, being “controlling”. There’s a difference between being too stifling and being a parent who isn’t afraid of being a parent. 

[Indigo Blue]

On 9/21/2022 at 9:12 AM, Rosie_0801 said:

Everything but death or making babies with the wrong person can be mended.

The ultimate aim is healthy and competent adults. I figure if my interference will promote health and competence, I should. if it will get in the way of those things, I oughtn't. Mostly interfering is explaining how to think about whatever it is, not doing the thing for her.

Like.

[Arcadia]

For level of anxiety, nutrition deficiency plays a role for me and my kids. Vitamin C, iron and omega 3 have the strongest effect for them. DS17 would sleep better and have less severe reactions to allergies. DS16 would be less cranky. DS17 would tell me when he feels anemic while DS16 was anemic. The recommended daily allowance for Vit C is insufficient for me, I have to boost with energen C now and then to reduce running nose from allergies. Vit B complex is what my family doctors always recommend to help with stress, I don’t see improvement with supplements but it could be an absorption issue or dosage issue like the issue I have for vit C. I don’t know if Vit D3 helps my kids and I but I buy the omega 3 with D3 because my oncologist recommended D3 since I am mostly indoors.