Shooting at a Texas elementary school

[Dmmetler]

11 hours ago, Terabith said:

Looking at the timeline of things, I am struck by the fact that a teacher who had only worked there a month propped the door open right before he crashed.  I hope and pray it was a coincidence and an oversight, but the thought crossed my mind to wonder if it was part of the attack. 
 

Probably not, right?  Just a horrific coincidence?

Honestly, it is so common to prop doors, etc if you’re going in and out, especially if weather is nice that it would probably be rarer NOT to have a door propped in an elementary school in April, as teachers start to figure out what they should take home, do activities outside because it’s pretty and tests are over, schools do field days, awards programs where you have lots of parents and families coming in, and the like.

 

[Faith-manor]

54 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

This murder weapon manufacturer cloaking itself in Bible-speak is revolting. 

I couldn't come up with a word. I my head every applicable adjective, deplorable, depraved, despicable, reprehensible, revolting, evil, psychopathic, sociopathic, none of them hit upon it well enough. I just can't describe my guttural reaction to this level of inhumanness.

[Corraleno]

Some spot-on cartoons from the New Yorker

[ktgrok]

10 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

That doesn’t mean they were cowards.  It’s a legit tactical issue to avoid getting shot if at all possible. 

 

Not in this instance. The tactical protocol, which they were trained in just a few months before, and not for the first time, specified for them to engage even at risk of their own lives. 

I 100% the right of anyone to say, "that's more than I'm willing to take on." BUt the time to say that is at the training, and to quit or ask for a desk job, or community educator or whatever. To continue on with the job after that training is to agree to that protocol and to agree to engage even at risk of death. 

So no, NOT a legit tactical measure in this particular type of situation. And they knew that. 

That said - it sounds like the one who messed up that protocol was the School Chief of Police. He bears the brunt of this. 

The other officers then had to decide if he was steering them wrong. The 19 in that hallway (18 minus incident commander, assuming he was in there with them) should have disobeyed, on moral grounds. But I have a slightly different level of anger knowing they were told the wrong thing. It doesn't excuse it, but it helps explain it. 

For the ones outside, IF they assumed the 19 inside were doing their actual freaking job and engaging the shooter, I have zero ill will toward them. IF they assumed their were officers shooting at the bad guy inside that school they were right to hold the parents back. A storm of bystanders would have made that operation more difficult. 

NOW, IF the police outside KNEW that nothing was actually being done inside, that's different. We don't know that yet. And it seems more likely they thought the right thing was being done inside. 

1 hour ago, WildflowerMom said:

Imagine your kids right now playing in their play room and a gunman enters.  You’re armed, have a vest on.  Do you stand outside in the hallway while you hear gunshots going off periodically?   Imagine watching the clock for 40 MINUTES and standing there, outside that playroom door.  That’s what they did.   I can’t fathom what excuse what make that scenario ok.  

Yeah. I mean, as I said above, I get that they were apparantly told to stand down. But I also can't fathom actually doing that when I knew kids were bleeding on the other side. 

Makes me wonder how may women, how many mothers, are on that police force, and if any were among that 19 in the hallway. 

Maybe I'm being sexist, but I don't see any mother able to stand by. I know my DH wouldn't either, but it is even more visceral for a mom I think?

50 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I can only say that my own 11yo has enough passion for addressing the wrongs in the world that I would trust his judgment on his ability to speak out AND I’d be able to gauge his state of mind at the time.
That would not prevent me from seeking appropriate help.
And these survivors should have/are supposed to be telling their experience to *someone right away for investigative purposes, so I would hope that had already been done, and it wouldn’t be their first time recounting the event out loud.

Also, telling the story is one form of therapy. It supposedly helps prevent PTSD to recount it, from what I've read. (well, lessen it). Part of PTSD is not processing the memory so it gets 'stuck" rather than integrated. 

And the mom needs money for therapy for the kid, and has a go fund me. There is a small part of me that worries mom is exploiting kid for the go fund me, but I'm going to assume positive intent. 

48 minutes ago, Katy said:

The person responsible is the chief who was in command of the scene that day.

Maybe it's different in Texas but I think in most of the country if an officer breaks orders and gets killed as a result all his life insurance and other benefits to his family are stripped. The border patrol agents probably got an OK from their own commander to break ranks and enter despite orders not to.  Only the person in charge is responsible IMO.

This is interesting, and something I'd like to know more of. 

I also said above, I would bet that the ones outside assumed those inside were handling things properly. They would not have any blame in that scenario. But are the most visible, and likely to be a target now. 

27 minutes ago, maize said:

I keep thinking about the teacher who propped the door. Such a minor discrepancy/error, the kind of thing almost everyone bodies at some point, and such a horrific consequence.

That is going to haunt her for the rest of her life.

I can't even imagine how she will deal with this. 

[ktgrok]

25 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

At least in the short term, emergency services coming in will include psychologists and therapists. However, eventually they leave. There are going to be a LOT of people who need mental health support-every single child and adult in that school, every parent who was stuck outside and couldn’t help, every first responder….thousands of people who are at serious risk of PTSD. 

I'm starting to think most of the nation needs PTSD treatment, or grief therapy, just from the news lately. 

20 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Honestly, it is so common to prop doors, etc if you’re going in and out, especially if weather is nice that it would probably be rarer NOT to have a door propped in an elementary school in April, as teachers start to figure out what they should take home, do activities outside because it’s pretty and tests are over, schools do field days, awards programs where you have lots of parents and families coming in, and the like.

 

Yup. I lived in a dorm with auto locking doors and propped them all the time. Everyone does. DH's expertise/career is security, physical and cyber, and this is why best practice is to have key card entry rather than autolocking doors. Because most people won't prop them if they have a badge to swipe, but will if they have to walk all the way around. But that costs money. And requires understanding human nature. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm starting to think most of the nation needs PTSD treatment, or grief therapy, just from the news lately. 

Yup. I lived in a dorm with auto locking doors and propped them all the time. Everyone does. DH's expertise/career is security, physical and cyber, and this is why best practice is to have key card entry rather than autolocking doors. Because most people won't prop them if they have a badge to swipe, but will if they have to walk all the way around. But that costs money. And requires understanding human nature. 

Post VB, the municipal offices in the region converted to badge access too, down to floors and offices. If you’re not being escorted by someone who works on that floor and in that office, you can’t even get the elevators to move.

[Drama Llama]

3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

This doesn’t really sound like a coordinated attack. I’m not even sure he planned to shoot up a school.  He shot his grandmother in an argument, was already angry, wrecked his truck which made him angrier,  and then found the nearest target within walking distance.

Except he messaged someone in Germany that he was going to go shoot up an elementary school before he got in his vehicle.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

Well, I mean is that what it takes? Do we have to toss the corpses of precious children off the balcony onto the senate floor in order to motivate these pieces of crap to do the will of the people? "Failed state" doesn't even begin to describe this.

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Faith-manor

[Elona]

@ktgrokYou mentioned in your comment above a possible scenario where the Incident Commander would possibly have been inside the building, and thus officers outside would have assumed the job was being done. 

But as far as I have seen, they won't even confirm that he was on the premises. I sincerely doubt that he would be one to go in, because you have to keep the commanding officer safe so that he can continue to direct those below him. That's just my common sense deduction, though, as I have no LEO experience or inside knowledge.

[Happy2BaMom]

1 hour ago, maize said:

I keep thinking about the teacher who propped the door. Such a minor discrepancy/error, the kind of thing almost everyone does at some point, and such a horrific consequence.

That is going to haunt her for the rest of her life.

Yes, and I'm sure the conspiracy theorists will make a big deal out of the fact that an elementary school teacher propped open her classroom door on a warm day that also happened to be the last day of school.

This country sucks. It just does. Maybe it won't always, but I don't know if I have much hope for things improving. A significant part of this country are a bunch of selfish, childish a$$holes, and another significant part can't be bothered to involve themselves in anything (which is another form of being a selfish, childish a$$%hole).

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

7 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Except he messaged someone in Germany that he was going to go shoot up an elementary school before he got in his vehicle.

I missed that part. I’ve read so much conflicting information.

why did no one call the authorities?

[Elona]

9 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

A significant part of this country are a bunch of selfish, childish a$$holes, and another significant part can't be bothered to involve themselves in anything (which is another form of being a selfish, childish a$$%hole).

To a certain extent I agree. But as noted in a recent post up-thread, over 80% of our citizens support improved gun regulation. Those people all want something done. It is, in fact, the rich, corporate minority who is standing in the way of democracy. We need to focus our attention on those specific people running those corporations, lobbyist groups, etc, not on our annoying neighbors who just parrot rhetoric. It is the entities who are blocking the will of the people that we need to lean on with all our might.

It would help if we could overturn the Citizens United ruling so we could get the dark money out. But that looks like a steep (impossible? ) hill to climb at this point.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Elona

[Drama Llama]

26 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I missed that part. I’ve read so much conflicting information.

why did no one call the authorities?

So it was an online “friend” in another country, and the message was sent privately minutes before he got in the car. 

I don’t know if it was seen in time, and if that person reached out, but it seems like such a short timeline to do something from that distance.

[Drama Llama]

35 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I missed that part. I’ve read so much conflicting information.

why did no one call the authorities?

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/videos/us/2022/05/25/shooter-text-messages-germany-uvalde-texas-vpx.cnn

[Faith-manor]

30 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

So it was an online “friend” in another country, and the message was sent privately minutes before he got in the car. 

I don’t know if it was seen in time, and if that person reached out, but it seems like such a short timeline to do something from that distance.

Right, and a big time change as well. So even if that person saw it, and for me when it comes to texts, I don't keep my phone in my pocket and do not ever look at it while driving, it can be a couple of hours before I respond. Then that person would have had to call their local authority who would have had to forward it to the embassy or find out what authority/phone number to call here in the states. That is not an instant process by any stretch. Texting someone in Germany on the day of the shooting is really not particularly relevant when it comes to response and questions about the response.

[Tree Frog]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

DH's expertise/career is security, physical and cyber, and this is why best practice is to have key card entry rather than autolocking doors. Because most people won't prop them if they have a badge to swipe, but will if they have to walk all the way around.

I'm a substitute teacher. The outside doors all lock automatically when closed, but I prop them open so I can go inside after recess or when dropping a student off for their bus. I know to request a card, but some schools won't given give them out, even for long term jobs. I'm rethinking which schools I want to continue working at based upon whether they will give me an access card. 

[stephanier.1765]

About the teacher who propped the door open: Will the teacher be in legal trouble? Will families be able to sue her/him? Other than living with the fact that this person will have to live with this for the rest of their life, will their life be ruined in financial ways, as well? Could the teacher be fired?

[Hilltopmom]

11 minutes ago, stephanier.1765 said:

About the teacher who propped the door open: Will the teacher be in legal trouble? Will families be able to sue her/him? Other than living with the fact that this person will have to live with this for the rest of their life, will their life be ruined in financial ways, as well? Could the teacher be fired?

Probably yes to all of those, I’d bet 😞

[HomeAgain]

Children don't get a memorial day.

I'm having a really hard time this weekend realizing that all these lives, the victims...they will never have a nation remember them.

They will be forgotten.  They will have been sacrificed in vain, with no hope of change on the horizon.

There isn't a point of finality, a collective mourning and remembrance.  No statue or symbol of their courage in having been a child in a public building.

 

Children don't have a memorial day and I don't know how to keep dealing with that.

 

[Pawz4me]

Hymn for the Hurting (Amanda Gorman, guest essay in NYT--gifted link)

Quote

Everything hurts,
Our hearts shadowed and strange,
Minds made muddied and mute.
We carry tragedy, terrifying and true.
And yet none of it is new;
We knew it as home,
As horror,
As heritage.
Even our children
Cannot be children,
Cannot be.

Everything hurts.
It’s a hard time to be alive,
And even harder to stay that way.
We’re burdened to live out these days,
While at the same time, blessed to outlive them.

This alarm is how we know
We must be altered —
That we must differ or die,
That we must triumph or try.
Thus while hate cannot be terminated,
It can be transformed
Into a love that lets us live.

May we not just grieve, but give:
May we not just ache, but act;
May our signed right to bear arms
Never blind our sight from shared harm;
May we choose our children over chaos.
May another innocent never be lost.

Maybe everything hurts,
Our hearts shadowed & strange.
But only when everything hurts
May everything change.

 

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Hilltopmom said:

Probably yes to all of those, I’d bet 😞

Unless she’s married into money I don’t see a teacher bring worth suing, especially over an innocent mistake.  The district is a better target.  

[Pam in CT]

re how Citizens United  opened the door for a handful of wealthy individuals and corporations and who knows who else to hold the rest of the nation hostage

2 hours ago, Elona said:

To a certain extent I agree. But as noted in a recent post up-thread, over 80% of our citizens support improved gun regulation. Those people all want something done. It is, in fact, the rich, corporate minority who is standing in the way of democracy. We need to focus our attention on those specific people running those corporations, lobbyist groups, etc, not on our annoying neighbors who just parrot rhetoric. It is the entities who are blocking the will of the people that we need to lean on with all our might.

It would help if we could overturn the Citizens United ruling so we could get the dark money out. But that looks like a steep (impossible? ) hill to climb at this point.

The SCOTUS ruling opened loopholes, but SCOTUS doesn't make law. Congress does... or fails to.

A handful of states (including mine) have campaign financing & disclosure rules that are substantially tighter than the FEC rules that CU overrode, which thus far have withstood judicial challenge. But the legislatures have to *want* to pass such laws. 

Which comes back around to, we have to use the tools we have, votes and advocacy and making very sure that our legislators are very aware that their constituents are watching what votes they are casting and where their money is coming from.

 

 

re Children don't get a memorial day

21 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Children don't get a memorial day.

I'm having a really hard time this weekend realizing that all these lives, the victims...they will never have a nation remember them.

They will be forgotten.  They will have been sacrificed in vain, with no hope of change on the horizon.

There isn't a point of finality, a collective mourning and remembrance.  No statue or symbol of their courage in having been a child in a public building.

 

Children don't have a memorial day and I don't know how to keep dealing with that.

[ tears ]

[Stacia]

Very informative thread...

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/CitizenCohn/status/1530554763925913601?s=20&t=d14yneJTJLvMcCXaQ6jp0g

More at the link...

[Corraleno]

There's been so much conflicting information about the door. I've seen that it was left propped open, that the teacher who propped it open was right outside, the teacher who was outside was mistaken for the shooter and confronted by the SRO, the shooter got inside while the teacher was outside, and the teacher went back inside but left the door unlocked. And I think some of the stories may be confusing the door to the school with the unlocked door to the classroom and/or the unlocked door between rooms 111 and 112.

I would really like to hear more details of the alleged confrontation between the SRO and the teacher who was outside. If he detained that teacher, or pulled them away from the door, and the actual shooter slipped in while he was dealing with that, that's a whole other screw up.

[KungFuPanda]

5 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

If the reports of the 911 calls are accurate then this 11 yo is much more mature and "with it" than many adults. If she can handle the shooting situation the way she did my guess (and obviously it IS a guess) is that she's more than capable of handling a few well chosen media interviews.

Everything is relative. On the list of reasons this child will be traumatized, an interview is going to be really far down the list. 

4 hours ago, Hilltopmom said:

Yes, we are. Although really most teachers don’t seem to care about covid anymore.

Also, last week one day it was 92 degrees in our building so in the morning a few doors wound up propped open with fans trying to pull in cooler air. (No A/C in schools here). Against the rules? Yes. Likelihood of a gunman coming during that half hour? Low?

Our  windows open all the time now that it’s warmer- you don’t need a key to get in just go to a screen- or really schools aren’t made with bulletproof glass.. all you have to do is shoot out a window if you want in anyways.

Classroom doors are shut during instruction and some lock automatically. But again, the top half is glass so a locked door isn’t going to stop anyone.

My daughter teaches in a public high school that continues to mask. 
 

This week her students were locked down for about an hour and they still don’t know why. They were also locked down for a tornado drill, so it’s been a rough week to be a second year high school teacher. 

1 hour ago, Elona said:

To a certain extent I agree. But as noted in a recent post up-thread, over 80% of our citizens support improved gun regulation. Those people all want something done. It is, in fact, the rich, corporate minority who is standing in the way of democracy. We need to focus our attention on those specific people running those corporations, lobbyist groups, etc, not on our annoying neighbors who just parrot rhetoric. It is the entities who are blocking the will of the people that we need to lean on with all our might.

It would help if we could overturn the Citizens United ruling so we could get the dark money out. But that looks like a steep (impossible? ) hill to climb at this point.

I wish it were “just the rich guys.” This takes buy in from voters and we have to look at regions and not voter numbers. It doesn’t much matter if you count the huge populations of NY and California in the “against” tally when you have entire states that won’t vote for reform. My uterus is heavily regulated because one person might die, but I can buy an assault rifle with zero harassment. 

[Farrar]

I had never heard of Yubo, so I asked my kids about it. I didn't initially say that it was in the context of the Texas shooter and they both cracked up. It turns out they're definitely familiar with it but only tried it briefly as a joke. They referred to it as "Tinder for Teens." They said you swipe left or right to find "friends" but that everyone sees it as the teen online pickup scene. Wowza.

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

Children don't get a memorial day.

I'm having a really hard time this weekend realizing that all these lives, the victims...they will never have a nation remember them.

They will be forgotten.  They will have been sacrificed in vain, with no hope of change on the horizon.

There isn't a point of finality, a collective mourning and remembrance.  No statue or symbol of their courage in having been a child in a public building.

 

Children don't have a memorial day and I don't know how to keep dealing with that.

 

I had the same thought when I walked outside today and saw American flags in my neighbor’s yard. These innocents need to be memorialized too. They gave their lives for someone else’s freedom to keep and bear weapons of war.

[Shelydon]

Saw a news article where a man open fire on a group of people because he was asked to drive more slowly through a parking lot.  Fortunately one of the women there had her conceal carry gun and shot him before he could kill anyone.  Why  would being asked to slow down make you open fire? 

[prairiewindmomma]

His amygdala has been taken hostage by the steady stream of fear and anger he’s been fed by the media. So many people are acting as if they are in existential crisis. They buy guns to counter their fear that is steadily fed to them. 

Seriously, I think the #1 problem we have as a nation is a profound loss of empathy for others and a lack of feeling of basic security. The #2 problem we have is that we have a small segment of people control the political system and they have stacked the deck in their favor. We, as a nation, keep electing these individuals. We should own that and not solely blame the politicians and judiciary. The #3problem we have is the power we have allowed our corporations to take—both in how they fund politicians to avoid paying taxes, avoid taking environmental responsibility for their actions, and the monopoly they hold over goods production and distribution. They have gained disproportionate power because of #2….and #2 happened because of #1. 

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 

Seriously, I think the #1 problem we have as a nation is a profound loss of empathy for others and a lack of feeling of basic security. 

I do see this. It is all us against them. Just saw it happen now. Our community pool in our neighborhood had a sign up that it was closed by the county. In the facebook group for the neighborhood a board member clarified it was because the automatic gate was not shutting properly (people pulled on it too hard) and not any issue with the pool/water. A repair person already fixed it, but the sign can only be removed by the county. It was stated that last time this happened county said it was fine to use the pool once the gate was fixed, as an inspector might not get there right away, just leave the sign up. 

So, someone who didn't see the post about it being the gate, and being fine to use it, CALLED the Sherrif's office because they saw a family swimming in the pool. Didn't stop to say something, or contact a board member, or double check the facebook group to see if there was an update. Just called the freaking sheriff's office on a family swimming on Memorial day weekend. Then went and posted about doing so, saying they will get a rude awakening. As if it was a gleeful thing to have the police come kick out a freaking family swimming, probably something they promised their kids they'd get to do this weekend. 

Oh, and I got a message from another person, after I posted that hey, if you were concerned, maybe stop and say something before calling the police. turns out, the family is black. This person who messaged me walked over and warned them the police had been called, so they could have the option to leave before they came. 

But yeah, no empathy. for crying out loud, the nation is traumatized, people are broke with inflation, and you want to call the cops on a black family swimming in a pool??

 

[livetoread]

29 minutes ago, Shelydon said:

Why  would being asked to slow down make you open fire? 

Why did he have a gun with him is the bigger question IMO. Why do we want angry people to have guns? Why do we want to be a country where people who get ticked off at little things can drive around with handguns running their errands?

Edited May 28, 2022 by livetoread

[Sneezyone]

28 minutes ago, Shelydon said:

Saw a news article where a man open fire on a group of people because he was asked to drive more slowly through a parking lot.  Fortunately one of the women there had her conceal carry gun and shot him before he could kill anyone.  Why  would being asked to slow down make you open fire? 

Is this supposed to be a win? More guns, more gunfire.

[Faith-manor]

17 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Is this supposed to be a win? More guns, more gunfire.

According to some of my neighbors, and my drunken bum, gun toting nephew, yes.

[math teacher]

Lack of empathy-yes!! I see this when I am driving. Usually, I am a safe driver and make smart choices, but sometimes I turn left when I maybe should have waited. I honestly think the person meeting me would rather run me over than slow down. I've been noticing this for the last several years. Come on people, let's show some grace.

[Murphy101]

38 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Is this supposed to be a win? More guns, more gunfire.

It’s not a win. But if the cops really can’t be counted on - ourselves is all we have to count on.  That’s the rational heavily pushed by the NRA. If the truth of this tragedy is that a large number of various kinds of policing/military authority either couldn’t or wouldn’t protect even a classroom of 4th graders - you can bet the attitude of a LOT of people who otherwise would like gun regulations is going to be to accept that the NRA isn’t all wrong about needing guns to protect ourselves. 

[Stacia]

 

https://twitter.com/fordm/status/1530626061951705091?s=20&t=oWY_Ghdaq8uJQsFeUfi3hQ

 

[Rosie_0801]

10 hours ago, Slache said:

I don't trust a traumatized 11 year old to make that decision for themselves. I have no opinion on the interview and I pass no judgement, I'm just not sure how much what she wants is relevant compared to what she needs right now.

Letting her speak gives her a kind of resolution that she wouldn't get if she hadn't, so is really the healthier choice in this in all ways unhealthy situation. 

[Stacia]

 

https://twitter.com/BrianEntin/status/1530650714825195520?s=20&t=oWY_Ghdaq8uJQsFeUfi3hQ

 

[Slache]

6 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Letting her speak gives her a kind of resolution that she wouldn't get if she hadn't, so is really the healthier choice in this in all ways unhealthy situation. 

Generally, I imagine that's correct. But since the child is young, naive and traumatized, my only point was that I wouldn't leave the final decision up to them.

[Sneezyone]

16 minutes ago, Slache said:

Generally, I imagine that's correct. But since the child is young, naive and traumatized, my only point was that I wouldn't leave the final decision up to them.

The child’s innocence was snatched at gunpoint. Young and traumatized, sure, innocent and stupid? No. The children are far better able to perceive and understand the real risks here (adult males with guns) than many who should know better. Is not talking about it supposed to convince the child that they’re no longer in danger (they are) we do have people walking among us who’ve survived more than one of these episodes. Are we supposed to tell the children this won’t happen again, adults will fix it? That’s a lie. I’m not here for getting in the way of victims processing the trauma however they want to do it. Asking, publicly, for change is one way they can start to take back some agency.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Drama Llama]

13 minutes ago, Slache said:

Generally, I imagine that's correct. But since the child is young, naive and traumatized, my only point was that I wouldn't leave the final decision up to them.

If it were my child, I would want the final decision left up to me, their mother, after hearing what my child wanted.  

So, questioning the choice that this mother made for with her child was wrong.  

[Stacia]

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/GeneforTexas/status/1530357461940576265?s=20&t=T6_B1mvlnOssEfkjgswcgg

Longer thread at the link.

[Rosie_0801]

20 minutes ago, Slache said:

Generally, I imagine that's correct. But since the child is young, naive and traumatized, my only point was that I wouldn't leave the final decision up to them.

I understand your point of view.
But I also understand how not young and not naive a traumatised eleven year old can be. 

I have had reporters at the end of my driveway after a death, and in that situation I was very glad it was a very long driveway where we couldn't see them from the house. There is not a chance I was going to interact with them or allow my daughter to do so. But if I was in the situation the parents of your young people are in right now, I would absolutely encourage mine to speak and I would provide all the support to cope with the consequences that I usually do.

Pg 113 of 'The Tao of Trauma' (a title which makes the book sound sillier the it is) by Alaine D Duncan and Kathy L. Kain:

The Five Steps of the Self-Protective Response

1. Arrest/Startle (noticing something)
2. Defensive Orienting (fear signals threat)
3. Specific Self Protective Response (doing something about it)
4. Completion (either it was nothing or you successfully defend)
5. Integration (processing)

So, from my point of view, "protecting" a child who wants to speak from doing so, is cheating them of their right to steps 3, 4 and 5. One of the biggest problems I have with society is that children have the right to experience trauma, but are so often considered too young to have the right to the skills to process it.

Then, not defending gets called the high road. Nice, huh?

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I understand your point of view.
But I also understand how not young and not naive a traumatised eleven year old can be. 

I have had reporters at the end of my driveway after a death, and in that situation I was very glad it was a very long driveway where we couldn't see them from the house. There is not a chance I was going to interact with them or allow my daughter to do so. But if I was in the situation the parents of your young people are in right now, I would absolutely encourage mine to speak and I would provide all the support to cope with the consequences that I usually do.

Pg 113 of 'The Tao of Trauma' (a title which makes the book sound sillier the it is) by Alaine D Duncan and Kathy L. Kain:

The Five Steps of the Self-Protective Response

1. Arrest/Startle (noticing something)
2. Defensive Orienting (fear signals threat)
3. Specific Self Protective Response (doing something about it)
4. Completion (either it was nothing or you successfully defend)
5. Integration (processing)

So, from my point of view, "protecting" a child who wants to speak from doing so, is cheating them of their right to steps 3, 4 and 5. One of the biggest problems I have with society is that children have the right to experience trauma, but are so often considered too young to have the right to the skills to process it.

Especially that last sentence. We’re, as a society, demanding that our children live with this fear and trauma (and not just this one but so many others) but can’t be bothered to allow or tolerate their speech about it?  We make them live (or die) with our foolish choices and then want to slap a muzzle on them for daring to complain? Grown men and women refused to tread where they walked, ran and hid.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Sneezyone

[KungFuPanda]

7 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

If it were my child, I would want the final decision left up to me, their mother, after hearing what my child wanted.  

So, questioning the choice that this mother made for with her child was wrong.  

What was even the nature of this interview?  I’m not ready to watch it yet, but there is a BIG difference between a kid giving a full out press conference and a kid talking to a reporter in a quiet room with her mother and one cameraman. I’m not sure how the second scenario would even ping this kids’ radar as traumatic. 

[Drama Llama]

Just now, KungFuPanda said:

What was even the nature of this interview?  I’m not ready to watch it yet, but there is a BIG difference between a kid giving a full out press conference and a kid talking to a reporter in a quiet room with her mother and one cameraman. I’m not sure how the second scenario would even ping this kids’ radar as traumatic. 

There isn't any footage of her.

She told her story to a female producer off camera with her mother in the room, and the producer is interviewed on camera and retells her story.  She said she didn't want to talk to a man, or on camera.  There is a photograph of her, presumably from before the shooting, standing in front of a painting of butterfly wings.  

[prairiewindmomma]

One aspect I haven't seen discussed with re: to recovery is the poverty of Uvalde. Median household income in Uvalde is under $42k (nearby San Antonio is $53k for comparison, national media is somewhere around $65k). It's relatively isolated---any complicated medical or mental stuff ends up happening in SA. I really hope they end up bringing in regular mental health therapy opportunities from SA, but I doubt they will.  I don't see most families being able to navigate the distance and the cost. Just gas to get to town and back is going to run them $50.  

ETA: I would guess that some of those school kids are Mexican nationals, so accessing therapy is another level of complexity given Abbott already bars them from accessing state insurance and wants to bar them from schools.  It drives me crazy that Texans rely on migrant labor in huge parts of their economy, and most families have a mixture of citizenship because families are spread across borders,  but Texas won't provide benefits. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by prairiewindmomma

[Slache]

24 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

If it were my child, I would want the final decision left up to me, their mother, after hearing what my child wanted.  

So, questioning the choice that this mother made for with her child was wrong.  

I didn't. I responded to the person who said she would do whatever the kid wants. I am not going to pretend to know what to do in any of these people's horrible situations.

[Drama Llama]

4 minutes ago, Slache said:

I didn't. I responded to the person who said she would do whatever the kid wants. I am not going to pretend to know what to do in any of these people's horrible situations.

I know, but your comment was part of a conversation that started because someone did judge this mom, so I was explaining why I found that judgement so offensive.  Sorry, if that wasn't clear.

[Stacia]

.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Stacia