What to do now…

[saraha]

sorry so long

If you were following along with the drama of my mom and our ruined Thanksgiving, I need some advice about what to do now.

So she had called Tuesday wanting to talk and make it right. So I called her Wednesday morning, she talks at me and told me her version then reinvited us to Thanksgiving. She didn’t mention my sister at all, she did NOT apologize. I said no to Thanksgiving, we made plans. She wanted to meet me half way between our houses and give me all the food she bought, I said I couldn’t do that. I said very little, mostly because she didn’t give me any room to talk. I reiterated that I was mad because of what she said about the kids, she said all misunderstanding and she still loves us. I didn’t say any of what I wanted to say, but decided it was pointless so just told her I had to go. Haven’t heard from her since. She has not contacted my sister at all.

My mom has weighed her options and even though I was the one who called her out on her BS, not my poor sister, I have her only grandkids so now sis and I think that she is “putting the blame” on my sister. Which makes sense in a twisted way, like she would rather ditch that relationship than the one with me and my kids by proxy. My sister is heart broken that she was minding her own business and my mom blew up thanksgiving and it’s now her fault. Like she has literally no fault in this, except she reported to me the lies my mom was telling her. Like none. I should be the one she’s mad at because I’m the one who called her out, I did not foresee my actions blowing back on my sister like this. My sister is single with no kids.

Which brings me to today. She called my cell phone and left a message with the date and time and just wanted to know if we are ok. We are not ok. I’m not ok with how she is treating my sister. My sister was the first one to get uninvited because when I called mom out she hung up on me, called my poor sister, screamed at her “what did you do?!?” And then said don’t come to my house for thanksgiving and hung up on her. I wasn’t uninvited until a couple of hours later.

What do I do now? I want to tell my mom that we are not moving forward until she fixes it with my sister, but I don’t actually want to talk TO her. I don’t want her to be able to think that she can once again isolate my sister and me and feel like she and I have moved past it without reaching out to my sister. I refuse the role of golden child. If I could, I would text her and ask what has she done to reach out to sis etc but she doesn’t have a cell phone or any kind of computer or way to contact her except through the mail or over the phone. I really want to back my sister in this because her catching the blame for mom and my’s blow up is ridiculously unfair. Mom doesn’t have any kind of regular schedule for when she is out of the house so I can’t just call and leave her a message. Maybe on a Sunday, but she doesn’t always go to church. 
What should I do? 

Edited November 28, 2021 by saraha

[bibiche]

Send a letter with everything you wish to say. Better than calling 1) because you don’t want to talk to her and 2)because your words will be there in front of her and she can’t make them say something they don’t.

[Rosie_0801]

You should give up.

She's not going to fix it with your sister. She might pretend to, if you bully her enough, but she's not going to fix it. She doesn't do healthy relationships.

 

[Annie G]

Make sure your sister knows you support her and that it’s NOT her fault. 
We’re in a similar situation here and it would really help to actually hear from other family members that our irrational family member is the one who is wrong, not us. 
 

As for your mom, you can’t fix it. But you can set boundaries for your own peace of mind. (as well as  your children’s best interests)

[Rosie_0801]

Justice isn't a thing narcissists provide.

[saraha]

I have unequivocally told my sister that she is not at fault, didn’t “start this” and that dh and I are so sorry that things are going this way, and I told her how much I appreciated the risk she took when she told me what mom was saying.

So if I just don’t respond how does she know it’s because of what she is doing to my sister? 
I don’t want to go no contact, but I don’t want her to think that things are fine between us when they are not. Is my only option to just go no contact?

[prairiewindmomma]

What Rosie said.

Reach out to your sister and be sure to acknowledge that mom was way out of line with her behavior. 

Additionally, be hesitant to “make things right” with your abuser. You can’t gloss over what happened. She literally put you through so much trauma that your body reacted (don’t want to bring up details in a nod to your privacy). You should give serious pause to being in a close relationship with someone who does that to you. 

[Rosie_0801]

4 minutes ago, saraha said:

I have unequivocally told my sister that she is not at fault, didn’t “start this” and that dh and I are so sorry that things are going this way, and I told her how much I appreciated the risk she took when she told me what mom was saying.

So if I just don’t respond how does she know it’s because of what she is doing to my sister? 
I don’t want to go no contact, but I don’t want her to think that things are fine between us when they are not. Is my only option to just go no contact?

It doesn't matter. She's going to think whatever she wants to think anyway.

You don't have to go no contact. You can go "only answering the phone when she rings me, and hanging up as soon as she starts behaving badly."

[prairiewindmomma]

I am in the camp that a truly narcissistic person can’t have healthy relationships. If you don’t want to go no contact, seriously contemplate what you are willing to tolerate and what boundaries you can establish and what you will do when they are crossed, because she will cross them. 
 

Keep in mind too that things tend to go in waves. You are in a lull, but she’s had a taste of power with what she stirred up and things may escalate. You need to seriously sit down with your kids and warn them and let them know that you unconditionally have their back. She is likely to continue escalating demands for contact and you may have doorstep drama.

[Harriet Vane]

You know that she will not be able to engage on this in a meaningful or truthful way. The only option you've got is to set boundaries and move on.

Each. and. every. time. you interact. 

That means stopping the conversation or leaving the situation when she starts pulling her crap. No declarations, no elaborate explanations. Just stop and leave. Practice saying and repeating a sentence that covers you and extricates you. Something like, "Okay, Mom, I'm going to head home now." or "Okay, Mom, I've gotta hang up now. Bye."

It can be said sweetly, even compassionately. Be firm and then END the interaction. Do not follow up with a huge conversation/argument about why and what, etc. This isn't about being mean or escalating drama. It's about simply stopping an interaction that she is manipulating.

[Harriet Vane]

And everything Rosie said. Generally I tend to agree with Rosie's perspective on most things. 

[Faith-manor]

26 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Justice isn't a thing narcissists provide.

This.

Do not answer the message, block her number.

[MooCow]

44 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

You should give up.

She's not going to fix it with your sister. She might pretend to, if you bully her enough, but she's not going to fix it. She doesn't do healthy relationships.

 

Yes

[Scarlett]

I think you should work on your relationship with your sister.  One that doesn’t include your mom.  And if your mom continues to try and blame your sister…..rinse and repeat your boundary.  
 

It is not your responsibility to fix the relationship between your mom and sister.  You did not cause it and you can’t fix it.  

[fairfarmhand]

Just don’t. Set yourself a timeline, say after the first of the year, and make a decision then. 
 

no letters

no calls

no texts.

enjoy the holidays without that hanging over your head.

I don’t think you can get through to her. She’s already rewritten the script.

[saraha]

Oh. I really want to set boundaries so that I can hang up, leave, whatever, but that involves talking to her. How do I restart talking to her if she is freezing out my sister unfairly?

Im not calling her back today. I just don’t know how to get from here to a cordial relationship with healthy boundaries and seeing each other 4 times a year like we used to. 

[JustEm]

I think whatever you ultimately decide to do, two things should be established immediately. 1. Get through this holiday season no contact. You need time to heal and figure out boundaries. 2. Never give your mother control of the holidays again. It doesn't matter if having it at her house is convenient. She used that power against you, your sister, and now your kids long enough. Take that power away from her indefinitely.

[JustEm]

2 minutes ago, saraha said:

Oh. I really want to set boundaries so that I can hang up, leave, whatever, but that involves talking to her. How do I restart talking to her if she is freezing out my sister unfairly?

Im not calling her back today. I just don’t know how to get from here to a cordial relationship with healthy boundaries and seeing each other 4 times a year like we used to. 

Now isn't the time to figure that out. Step back for a month or so and heal. Take care of yourself and your family.

[Corraleno]

If you don't want to go totally no contact at this point, then this is what I would do: I would write her a letter stating that you will not stand for her trying to blame your sister, that you and your sister are standing together on this and will no longer allow her to triangulate and and talk behind your backs, that from now on any information she says to one of you will be shared with the other, and state in the letter that your sister is also getting a copy of the letter. If she wants to have any kind of relationship with you and your kids, those are the rules, and if she breaks them you will go no contact. I totally get the advice to just immediately cut her out, but I think  if you do that she will try to manipulate and guilt your sister into persuading you to resume contact, and that's a terrible position for your sister to be in, especially since none of this is her fault to begin with.

So if I were in your shoes I would be willing to give your mother ONE shot at respecting your boundaries, for your sister's sake, before invoking the nuclear option. Right now you have something she desperately wants and can't get with her usual tricks, so you have more leverage and power than you have probably ever had before. As long as you can be really truly FIRM about enforcing boundaries, then it could work to have limited contact. But if you feel like you will have a hard time standing up to her and enforcing boundaries, then you would probably be better off just cutting all contact. Whatever you do, I hope you will invite your sister to have Christmas with your family. (((hugs)))

[Danae]

10 minutes ago, saraha said:

Oh. I really want to set boundaries so that I can hang up, leave, whatever, but that involves talking to her. How do I restart talking to her if she is freezing out my sister unfairly?

Im not calling her back today. I just don’t know how to get from here to a cordial relationship with healthy boundaries and seeing each other 4 times a year like we used to. 

You don’t need to talk to her about your boundaries.  They are not something you need to negotiate, and they aren’t about teaching her to behave in a certain way.  They are for you to remind you when to get out. 
 

 

[gardenmom5]

You can't make her apologize to your sister.  Even if she did - that is not a guarantee she'll treat your sister better.  Or you and your kids for that matter.

I hope this open's your sister's eyes to this is your mom.  It's not your sister - it's your mom.  I hope you see her for who she is too.  Your sister has been made the scapegoat because you have kids. Remember - she was using your children as pawns in a plot to be mean to her own daughter.  You cannot trust her to not do it again.

I think you could benefit from some time to process all of this.  If you want to send her a letter/email about what you've said - you can.  Even if you don't send it, it could be beneficial to write it.  Spend that time building a relationship with your sister.

Your mom's only regret in all of this is you stood up to her and refused to let her play her game with your kids as pawns.  She's not sorry she did it, and likely can't comprehend why it was wrong.

[Rosie_0801]

18 minutes ago, Danae said:

You don’t need to talk to her about your boundaries.  They are not something you need to negotiate, and they aren’t about teaching her to behave in a certain way.  They are for you to remind you when to get out. 
 

 

This^

 

You don't have to "give her a chance." She's had chances since the day you were born. She's always been the adult in the situation.

[Shoeless]

Your relationship with your mother is separate from your relationship with your sister.

Your relationship with your sister is separate from your relationship with your mother. 

You can talk to your mother without anything being fixed between her and your sister. You can't fix their relationship. 

If you want to have a relationship with your mother, you have to accept that she is probably always going to treat your sister poorly.  It is a characteristic of your mom, no different than her height or eye color. 

Maybe in time that will become a deal breaker for you. 

 

[popmom]

I don’t have any advice. Just a virtual hug. I’m navigating something similar myself. 

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

It doesn't matter. She's going to think whatever she wants to think anyway.

 

exactly

[footballmom]

Your mom is not my mom, but after some very similar behavior, my switch flipped also and I called my mom out.  I felt the need to “honor” her and “respect” her, so continued to answer / explain / tried to reason through my boundaries.  After her continued escalating behavior to not only try to plow over my boundaries but also tried to find legal leverage to get what she wanted, I’m now no contact / super low contact.  
 

My only regret is that I wasn’t more succinct / firm / unwilling to feed the abuser from the beginning.  I always knew my mom was kind of “tough” but really didn’t have the confidence or understanding of how bad it was.  
 

I will also give you a head’s up to be selective of whom you will choose to share your relationship status with regarding your mom.  Our society is hit or miss on being supportive of adult children who disconnect with a parent over abusive behavior when it’s not obvious physical abuse, 

[Katy]

Invite your sister for Christmas. Avoid your mom for now. When your mom gets ahold of you, say, “I love sister. What you did is not okay, it will never be okay, and I can’t believe you tried to rope my child into such mean behavior. I’m still angry about it and I’m not sure you and I will ever be okay.”

If she’s truly NPD it won’t matter. If not, if she’s just got a few traits it might scare her into behaving around you for a while.  I’d say that’s true in less than 10% of the people I’ve known though. Usually Rosie is right.  I’m married to the golden child and my MIL is afraid of me. She still ignores one SIL completely and scapegoats another, but not around us. 

[SKL]

Be there for your sister.  Give your relationship with your mom a break.

When your mom doesn't have you to talk to, she is likely to reach out to your sister on her own, without feeling like she's being bullied by you to do so.

Work on a plan for Christmas that doesn't provide an opportunity for this level of drama again.

[saraha]

She just called again, but didn’t leave a message this time. I’m sorry to keep dragging you all into this but dh is sick and I don’t really have anyone to go over this with. I guess I’ll just ignore it for now. The idea that she is just going to keep calling til I talk to her is making me sick to my stomach

[theelfqueen]

Block her. Her calls will just go to voicemail. If you decide to, you can unblock later.  You can decide whether you want to listen to them later - or to have DH listen to them... or whatever. But your phone wont ring. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by theelfqueen

[saraha]

2 minutes ago, theelfqueen said:

Block her. Her calls will just go to voicemail. If you decide to, you can unblock later.  You can decide whether you want to listen to them later - or to have DH listen to them... or whatever. But your phone wont ring. 

So if I block her the messages will still go to voicemail? Good to know, thanks 

[Rosie_0801]

7 minutes ago, saraha said:

I’m sorry to keep dragging you all into this

Don't be.

This is hard stuff. You're not meant to have to do it alone.

[JustEm]

What about her calling makes you sick to your stomach? The fact that you are ignoring her? If so, that is a clear sign you need to do this to heal. The fact that the issues is unresolved? If so, that is a clear sign you need to do this to heal. Any other of the millions of reasons I could think of if I weren't about to put kids to bed? If so, those are all clear signs you need to heal.

Getting sick to your stomach is not a healthy reaction to ignoring a phone call. No one is owed your time, your listening ear, your voice, etc. Maybe you will know you have had enough time to heal by not reacting physically to a phone call from her.

[Kassia]

11 minutes ago, saraha said:

She just called again, but didn’t leave a message this time. I’m sorry to keep dragging you all into this but dh is sick and I don’t really have anyone to go over this with. I guess I’ll just ignore it for now. The idea that she is just going to keep calling til I talk to her is making me sick to my stomach

I agree with @Rosie_0801.  This is hard stuff and you have no reason to apologize.  I'm glad you have WTM as a safe place to vent and look for help and support.  I know that I am so grateful for what I've received here with my own issues.  ❤️

[LifeLovePassion]

1 hour ago, footballmom said:

I will also give you a head’s up to be selective of whom you will choose to share your relationship status with regarding your mom.  Our society is hit or miss on being supportive of adult children who disconnect with a parent over abusive behavior when it’s not obvious physical abuse, 

This is so true. So many just don't get it and she will play the victim. "I just don't understand why they wouldn't want to talk to me". 

It is so hard. We are here to support you. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Hugs!! It’s ok that this is hard. She has conditioned you to respond and feel guilty when you don’t. That’s not healthy. Note that your body is having a trauma response even when you aren’t interacting directly with her. You don’t “owe” her a response. 
 

Block her. Give yourself some space to heal. 
 

 

 

 

[popmom]

I agree with all of the above. You can trust what they are saying. I felt exactly like you are feeling. I’m so sorry it’s so hard and confusing. 

[lauraw4321]

You are doing great with something very very hard. Tell your sister that you wish you could fix things, but you can’t. Because you can’t. It’s not your jobs me you can’t fix it. 
 

I agree that you need to be no contact for awhile. The feeling of dread will get better. 

[Farrar]

Another vote to listen to Rosie and all the good advice that follows in that line of thinking.

Definitely don't write letters.

What does your sister want? I would definitely try to stick together with her while still recognizing that you can't fix things with your mother and her.

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, saraha said:

We're glad to support you through this. We're all very sorry you're going through this, and we're all feeling very protective of you, your spouse, and your kids right now.

Oh. I really want to set boundaries so that I can hang up, leave, whatever, but that involves talking to her.
I would recommend not talking to her until you've seen a therapist.  You don't have the instincts for it-your red flag system has been systemically destroyed and dysfunctionally rewired over the decades. If you insist on flirting with continued crazy, go with the approach listed upthread about being civil and pleasant when she calls and the second she steps out of line, get off the phone. You're going to have to reestablish unspoken rules (explaining them to Mommy Dearest is a waste of your time and energy) and healthy patterns of relationship (from your side of the relationship) at a distance on the phone for quite a while before you can even consider in person interactions. One step at a time.

How do I restart talking to her if she is freezing out my sister unfairly?
By compartmentalizing like other healthy adults do.  You've lived in a tangled web of crazy your whole life.You're connecting her relationship with you to her relationship with your sister. Those two aren't related; they're completely separate. Start treating them separately.  You're responsible for your side of your relationship with Mommy Dearest if you choose to have one.  You're responsible for your side of your relationship with Sis.  That's it.  You have absolutely no responsibility for either half of their relationship with each other, so butt out of their relationship and stay of out their relationship.  It's not your place. It never has been.  It never will be. You can encourage Sis to not allow herself to be abused by Mommy Dearest, to seek out therapy and other child of narcs resources, and reassure her you don't blame her for anything Mommy Dearest does.

And let's be real here.  Mommy Dearest has been awful to Sis for years based on what you described.  Don't convince yourself that it would be a huge tragedy if her relationship with Mommy Dearest came to an end or was significantly restricted. There are worse things than going limited/no contact with a toxic parent-continuing to be abused is worse.

I'm not calling her back today. I just don’t know how to get from here to a cordial relationship with healthy boundaries and seeing each other 4 times a year like we used to. 
Again, that's the job of a therapist who specializes in narcissism.  The therapist will be able to address all the complex dynamics involved by drawing on years of training and experience.  Don't assume any particular outcome.  You don't control every aspect of a relationship dynamic, so who knows what this will look like during/after therapy.

Decide what you want to do for the holidays after a week or two of detoxing from the toxicity. If you include Sis in that, be on your guard because you said she has a history of drama and narc tendencies.  Keep it short and sweet, keep it on neutral territory, or let her host so if you want leave you easily can because I don't think you're in a position to insist she leave your house if she gets out of line. Sis and Mommy Dearest have been entangled with your relationships with them. You don't yet know what Sis is like with Mommy Dearest out of the equation, so Sis is at best a wild card and at worst another narc with all the things that come with being a narc.  Beware. 

 

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, saraha said:

I have unequivocally told my sister that she is not at fault, didn’t “start this” and that dh and I are so sorry that things are going this way, and I told her how much I appreciated the risk she took when she told me what mom was saying.

So if I just don’t respond how does she know it’s because of what she is doing to my sister? 
I don’t want to go no contact, but I don’t want her to think that things are fine between us when they are not. Is my only option to just go no contact?

You have made a major breakthrough in understanding your relationship with your mother.  She is not emotionally healthy, and she is not capable of having emotionally healthy relationships.  It's not about "want to" - she *can't*!  the capacity isn't there.

I think you need to take a break.  If you don't want to go no-contact, make some VERY HARD rules about interaction.  I'd really suggest what I did when i started - one phone call a week.  15 minutes max.  The first HINT of talking about your sister/"not nice"/disrespectful/gaslighting/guilt-tripping/hint of anything - phone call was over.  It was nearly a year before one lasted 15 minutes.  YOU make the phone call to her.   

Be ready with responses.  "that doesn't work for me".  Sister's and my relationship is between us.  (and not open for discussion.  period.)  I have to go.

don't try and teach her - it's pointless.  she - only sees what she wants to see, and no amount of pointing it out to a narcissist will enable them to see something they don't want to see.

For now - I'd suggest letting her know you'll call her after the new year (this is non-negotiable.  don't even discuss it - you're making an announcement of what you are going to do.  You are not asking her if she's ok with it.) - and take a break to process everything.

4 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I am in the camp that a truly narcissistic person can’t have healthy relationships. If you don’t want to go no contact, seriously contemplate what you are willing to tolerate and what boundaries you can establish and what you will do when they are crossed, because she will cross them. 
 

Keep in mind too that things tend to go in waves. You are in a lull, but she’s had a taste of power with what she stirred up and things may escalate. You need to seriously sit down with your kids and warn them and let them know that you unconditionally have their back. She is likely to continue escalating demands for contact and you may have doorstep drama.

Yep - you need to figure out what you will and won't tolerate.  And you need to have a plan for what you will do when she DOES violate your boundaries.   You need time to figure it out.

Above all - narcissists live for supply (re: emotional vampire).  You and your sister are her narcissistic supply.  Think of it like an alcoholic.  Alcoholics can't drink.  Narcissists - can't have supply.

3 hours ago, saraha said:

Oh. I really want to set boundaries so that I can hang up, leave, whatever, but that involves talking to her. How do I restart talking to her if she is freezing out my sister unfairly?

Im not calling her back today. I just don’t know how to get from here to a cordial relationship with healthy boundaries and seeing each other 4 times a year like we used to. 

You can't control her, you can't fix the relationship between your sister and her.

be prepared that if she can't get supply from you, she may flip it and make you the scapegoat/bad guy and try to make friends with your sister again. I would let your sister know about that narcissistic ploy.

  take the time to grieve you don't have the mother you wish you did, and every child deserves.  

beware of Love-bombing.  When a narcissist realizes they are losing control over supply, they will "pour on the niceness" to try and get their supply back.  It's not sincere, it's about their control.

 They will also employ "flying monkeys' enablers to bring the supply back into the fold.

3 hours ago, Danae said:

You don’t need to talk to her about your boundaries.  They are not something you need to negotiate, and they aren’t about teaching her to behave in a certain way.  They are for you to remind you when to get out. 
 

 

^THIS^

 

Never announce a boundary - you "just do it".  you decide what they are - and just do it.  It you so much as bring it up to her, she will see it as a wedge to negotiate her way back into your good graces.  She won't respect it.

she's not capable of healthy boundaries.  Narcissists despise boundaries - it limits their power.

1 hour ago, saraha said:

She just called again, but didn’t leave a message this time. I’m sorry to keep dragging you all into this but dh is sick and I don’t really have anyone to go over this with. I guess I’ll just ignore it for now. The idea that she is just going to keep calling til I talk to her is making me sick to my stomach

Don't be.  we've been through this before you.  we know the bumps - and we want to help you through it.   

I'd strongly suggest you block her number so you are not having adrenaline surges (very hard on your adrenals) when the phone rings.  That's not healthy.  That's your fight or flight response kicking in.

 

1 hour ago, LifeLovePassion said:

This is so true. So many just don't get it and she will play the victim. "I just don't understand why they wouldn't want to talk to me". 

It is so hard. We are here to support you. 

Narcissists are professional victims - nothing is ever their fault . . . .They suck people in, and use them too  They need supply, and they want Flying monkeys/enablers - to be sent after you.

And most people really don't have a clue about how narcissism works.  They think of a grandiose narcissist that is full of themself. . . . that barely scratches the surface of what narcissists are like.  (There are multiple types.).  

 

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Hugs!! It’s ok that this is hard. She has conditioned you to respond and feel guilty when you don’t. That’s not healthy. Note that your body is having a trauma response even when you aren’t interacting directly with her. You don’t “owe” her a response. 
 

Block her. Give yourself some space to heal. 

^this^

 

Look up the narcissistic term "dog whistle".  something (words/phrases) that seems innocuous, but is a trigger to do exactly what the narcissist wants.

Pavlov's training is nothing compared to a narcissist's . . . . . , 

[saraha]

You all are the best

 really

[Harriet Vane]

You can do this. We're all rooting for you.

[Carol in Cal.]

5 hours ago, saraha said:

Oh. I really want to set boundaries so that I can hang up, leave, whatever, but that involves talking to her. How do I restart talking to her if she is freezing out my sister unfairly?

Im not calling her back today. I just don’t know how to get from here to a cordial relationship with healthy boundaries and seeing each other 4 times a year like we used to. 

I think that you maybe did not actually have a cordial relationship with healthy boundaries before.  At least it does not sound like that to me.

I would like to emphasize that 'going no contact' is not necessarily forever.  It's until you yourself are stronger and more centered.  It does not depend on convincing your mom that it's the right thing to do.  It depends on you convincing yourself that you need some distance and maybe some outside help to get your head together in the face of a shifty, dishonest situation.

I am much slower to recommend avoiding contact than many here, but I am doing so in your case because your thinking is so enmeshed with her BS that I think you need to clear it for a while without her lying to you, which is mostly what she does.  Please, please, for your children's sake, take some time to figure this out.  If you want to, you could write to her and say, No, we are not OK.  I am not sure what I want to do about that just yet.  Please leave me be for a while so I can figure some things out.  I will be in touch in a month or two.  I need to really think this through.  I'm very concerned that you lied about my children, and that you're treating other family members so badly, and I don't want to talk about it yet.

Now, if you do that I'm sure she will start calling you, but I think it is crucial to either not answer, or to answer and say, I'm not ready to discuss this yet.  Gotta go, Bye now.  And hang up,  NOTE:  That is not hanging up on her.  You said goodbye and you already asked her not to contact you.  So she is not respecting you, but you are respecting her AND sticking to your boundaries by doing this.  If you don't think you can manage that, you really should stop taking her calls at all for a bit....NOT TO GET BACK AT HER, BUT TO GIVE YOURSELF THE SPACE AND TIME YOU NEED TO HEAL.  This is not about being mean.  This is about figuring out what kind of person and what kind of a mother you want to be yourself.  You have had a bunch of seriously crazy behavior positioned as normal for so long that your mind is going to question your perception of reality if you have continued contact with her right now.  Slow down, and step back until you can pull your head together about the dishonesty and decide how best to deal with it.  Do it for yourself and for your children.

Also, as others have pointed out, maintain a relationship with your sister that is separate from your relationship with your mom.  Don't speak for her to your mom, but don't believe what your mom says about her either.  

Edited November 29, 2021 by Carol in Cal.

[GoodGrief3]

From the things you are saying, I'm not entirely sure that your sister is to be trusted either. I would proceed with caution as far as the things you are sharing with her. It does seem that you are taking on quite a bit of responsibility for the Thanksgiving blowup.

I suggest giving yourself some space from both parties for a while as you work through this situation. Focus on your husband and children and yourself. This does not mean you will stay away from them forever. But this gives you an opportunity to go back with personal strength.

[KungFuPanda]

I'd focus all of this time and energy on building a relationship with your sister.  You both deserve family that you can trust and you can get that from each other.  You can fill that role in each other's lives that your mom should be filling.  Let mom do the work of figuring out what she did wrong and fixing it herself and you can just go on with your life until that happens.  (It probably won't happen . . . life moves on.)  It's not your job to coach her through it and if she can't be decent, she can't be part of YOUR family.  Your kids deserve to have healthy boundaries modeled for them so that they don't get the idea that this is normal behavior that should be tolerated.  Your kids also deserve to see people earnestly working towards healthy family dynamics and you and your sister deserve to heal whether or not your mother ever gets on board.

[gardenmom5]

18 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I think that you maybe did not actually have a cordial relationship with healthy boundaries before.  At least it does not sound like that to me.

I would like to emphasize that 'going no contact' is not necessarily forever.  It's until you yourself are stronger and more centered.  It does not depend on convincing your mom that it's the right thing to do.  It depends on you convincing yourself that you need some distance and maybe some outside help to get your head together in the face of a shifty, dishonest situation.

I am much slower to recommend avoiding contact than many here, but I am doing so in your case because your thinking is so enmeshed with her BS that I think you need to clear it for a while without her lying to you, which is mostly what she does.  Please, please, for your children's sake, take some time to figure this out.  If you want to, you could write to her and say, No, we are not OK.  I am not sure what I want to do about that just yet.  Please leave me be for a while so I can figure some things out.  I will be in touch in a month or two.  I need to really think this through.  I'm very concerned that you lied about my children, and that you're treating other family members so badly, and I don't want to talk about it yet.

Now, if you do that I'm sure she will start calling you, but I think it is crucial to either not answer, or to answer and say, I'm not ready to discuss this yet.  Gotta go, Bye now.  And hang up,  NOTE:  That is not hanging up on her.  You said goodbye and you already asked her not to contact you.  So she is not respecting you, but you are respecting her AND sticking to your boundaries by doing this.  If you don't think you can manage that, you really should stop taking her calls at all for a bit....NOT TO GET BACK AT HER, BUT TO GIVE YOURSELF THE SPACE AND TIME YOU NEED TO HEAL.  This is not about being mean.  This is about figuring out what kind of person and what kind of a mother you want to be yourself.  You have had a bunch of seriously crazy behavior positioned as normal for so long that your mind is going to question your perception of reality if you have continued contact with her right now.  Slow down, and step back until you can pull your head together about the dishonesty and decide how best to deal with it.  Do it for yourself and for your children.

Also, as others have pointed out, maintain a relationship with your sister that is separate from your relationship with your mom.  Don't speak for her to your mom, but don't believe what your mom says about her either.  

I would like to emphasize- she's not going to be happy you won't talk.  She's freaking out she's lost her supply.  (not. your. problem.)  She's going to try and talk over you so you "won't" hang up.  She will make you feel rude for wanting to hang up.

Stand your ground.  Mom - gotta go, bye.  Hang up.  if she tries to talk over you - talk over her right back.  Do not repeat, do not engage, just say goodbye and hang up.  Do not speak to her more often than once a week (and possibly not even once in a month).

If you do not feel capable to doing that - don't talk to her at all.  You need to be able to figure things out.  Right now, you are unbalanced, and she wants to keep things that way.   Narcissists want their victims off-balance so they can't think straight.  She's going to love-bomb you to reel you back in.  Don't fall for it.  It's just a tactic.

[Carol in Cal.]

PS  Don't have a relationship with your sister so you can gang up on your mom.  Have it because you want to have it.

PPS  Getting back into contact with your mom does not necessarily have to include her being in contact with your children, and for a while it probably should not do so.  And you should not discuss that with her.  She is unlikely to truly apologize and change her ways, and her behavior toward and about them is very serious.  Be the good mom that she is not, and don't normalize that for them.

[saraha]

Haha where is the bingo card? Today brought both love bombing the kids with stuff she is buying from the store for Christmas and she has a crippling headache, so I should feel sorry for her. 

[Faith-manor]

28 minutes ago, saraha said:

Haha where is the bingo card? Today brought both love bombing the kids with stuff she is buying from the store for Christmas and she has a crippling headache, so I should feel sorry for her. 

Fingers in your ears. You hear nothing, see nothing, say nothing. Be a wall, ignore. However she is trying to communicate, she may as well be reaching the answering machine of a total stranger.

Sorry Saraha, she has the narcissism very badly!