Use of pronouns in college papers

[saraha]

DD17 is in a DE English 101 class and had me look over a paper she is working on. She was writing a response to an author's work and was using gender neutral pronouns to refer to both the author and the audience. It was super clunky and confusing, so when I asked about it, she responded that she googled the author and couldn't find anywhere what the author's preferred pronouns were so was using they/them.  I told her that the way she was using them was clunky and awkward and that it is ok to assume the author, Barbara Something, was using female pronouns, and besides, it is an English 101 paper that said author will never see so I doubt she will be offended. She was highly offended on behalf of the author at my response.

My question now is, is this a thing? Are students now responsible for using preferred pronouns in their writing? I want to make sure I am steering my kids in the right direction when I help them edit their papers

Thanks!

[whitestavern]

I think she's overthinking it. For the reasons you mentioned, I would just tell her to use her/she. 

[Shoeless]

Your daughter should ask the instructor for clarification.

With a name like Barbara, I would assume that the author uses female pronouns if there is no indication otherwise. 

[Bootsie]

It is very confusing.  As a college professor, I am on the side of preferring that a student using "she" in a situation like this, but I have colleagues who would prefer "they"  I am in the process of writing a college textbook and began following the publisher's guidelines; in the past several months the publisher has changed its standards and the last draft I received had a lot of the pronouns changed to "they" in places that I think make the reading of the text difficult.  

[Junie]

IMO, she/her should be used unless evidence is found that the author prefers different pronouns.

Personally, I would be offended if someone referred to me with gender neutral pronouns.

What pronouns does the author herself use in her writings?  That might give a clue as to whether traditional pronouns or gender-neutral pronouns are preferred.

[Melissa Louise]

She is over-thinking. 

Unless the author has subsequently published under a new, male name, there is no problem using sex based pronouns. 

I'm as anti-gender as they come, studying at an extremely progressive University, and excessive delicacy re author pronoun is not part of any rubric I've ever seen. 

[bolt.]

I think your daughter is more likely to have genuine information (or accurate intuition) about what is expected at an institution where she is attending than you (or we) are.

[EKS]

There were times when I was writing papers in graduate school when I couldn't determine the gender of the author so, instead of using "they" for a specific person (which I think is beyond idiotic), I simply rewrote those sentences so that I didn't need to use a pronoun.

[goldberry]

Pronoun bunny trail... I am someone who has a REALLY hard time using "them/they" as singular.  We are working on a handbook at my job, and it of course is really clunky to do the he/she thing.  Is they/them really acceptable as singular now?  Would it be acceptable in an employee handbook?

Adding example:  When a member is blah blah, they should do blah blah.   Right now we often say, when a member is blah blah, the member should blah blah.  Clunky.

Edited November 4, 2021 by goldberry

[JennyD]

I read a lot of academic papers and have not seen this at all.  Also, IME the vast majority of people who specify their preferred pronouns in their email signatures or zoom screens prefer gendered pronouns.

[Terabith]

15 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Pronoun bunny trail... I am someone who has a REALLY hard time using "them/they" as singular.  We are working on a handbook at my job, and it of course is really clunky to do the he/she thing.  Is they/them really acceptable as singular now?  Would it be acceptable in an employee handbook?

Adding example:  When a member is blah blah, they should do blah blah.   Right now we often say, when a member is blah blah, the member should blah blah.  Clunky.

Yeah, singular they/ them is pretty much the default now, and I have a kid who gets very upset about any pronouns other than they/ them being applied to them.  

[Melissa Louise]

19 minutes ago, JennyD said:

I read a lot of academic papers and have not seen this at all.  Also, IME the vast majority of people who specify their preferred pronouns in their email signatures or zoom screens prefer gendered pronouns.

This. Also - I'm writing a paper right now and there is never a time I need to use pronouns for an author? If I'm talking about, say, Sims, then I refer to her as Sims. Not sometimes Sims and then sometimes 'she'. 

'She' doesn't say anything in a paper. Sims does. 

[EKS]

24 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Pronoun bunny trail... I am someone who has a REALLY hard time using "them/they" as singular.  We are working on a handbook at my job, and it of course is really clunky to do the he/she thing.  Is they/them really acceptable as singular now?  Would it be acceptable in an employee handbook?

Adding example:  When a member is blah blah, they should do blah blah.   Right now we often say, when a member is blah blah, the member should blah blah.  Clunky.

I think it is acceptable to use they when it is for an unnamed, unknown, nonspecific person, even in reasonably formal writing.  It has been used informally in this way for as long as I can remember.  So in your example, they would be fine.  You can also rewrite sentences to make the subject plural: When members are blah blah, they should blah blah.  

[Ellie]

34 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Pronoun bunny trail... I am someone who has a REALLY hard time using "them/they" as singular.  We are working on a handbook at my job, and it of course is really clunky to do the he/she thing.  Is they/them really acceptable as singular now?  Would it be acceptable in an employee handbook?

Adding example:  When a member is blah blah, they should do blah blah.   Right now we often say, when a member is blah blah, the member should blah blah.  Clunky.

Make it plural: When members are blah, blah, blah, they should do blah blah blah.

[Ellie]

Just now, Ellie said:

Make it plural: When members are blah, blah, blah, they should do blah blah blah.

Or alternate he/she in each section/chapter.

[Dmmetler]

2 hours ago, saraha said:

DD17 is in a DE English 101 class and had me look over a paper she is working on. She was writing a response to an author's work and was using gender neutral pronouns to refer to both the author and the audience. It was super clunky and confusing, so when I asked about it, she responded that she googled the author and couldn't find anywhere what the author's preferred pronouns were so was using they/them.  I told her that the way she was using them was clunky and awkward and that it is ok to assume the author, Barbara Something, was using female pronouns, and besides, it is an English 101 paper that said author will never see so I doubt she will be offended. She was highly offended on behalf of the author at my response.

My question now is, is this a thing? Are students now responsible for using preferred pronouns in their writing? I want to make sure I am steering my kids in the right direction when I help them edit their papers

Thanks!

When L took journalism last Spring, the AP standard is to use neutral pronouns unless the person discussed has expressed a clear preference, and NOT to go by name, etc. 

 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, goldberry said:

Pronoun bunny trail... I am someone who has a REALLY hard time using "them/they" as singular.  We are working on a handbook at my job, and it of course is really clunky to do the he/she thing.  Is they/them really acceptable as singular now?  Would it be acceptable in an employee handbook?

Adding example:  When a member is blah blah, they should do blah blah.   Right now we often say, when a member is blah blah, the member should blah blah.  Clunky.

It's definitely acceptable as a singular pronoun for an unknown individual. It does get confusing sometimes when you are alternately using it for a known individual and a plural group of known individuals, all in the same sentences. I end up needing to use the name in place of pronoun in that circumstance.

[Tanaqui]

Singular they is no more confusing than singular you.

And honestly - not that recent either even when referring to a known person. Just a few months ago I was reading a boarding school book published in the 1970s where at one point a character consistently refers to the person she was caught talking on the phone with as "they" so as to avoid getting into extra trouble for having been talking to a *boy*. (It doesn't work, but it does take several repetitions for the teacher who caught her to even realize she was saying "they" instead of "he" or "she".)

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Singular they is no more confusing than singular you.

As someone who uses singular they constantly, it’s just not true that it’s no more confusing. I have to regularly clarify who I am talking about and/or arrange my words more carefully in order to make it clear. I end up needing to sub in their name more frequently than I otherwise would, otherwise I end up saying things that are ambiguous and then have to clarify who I mean by they. That’s okay, and it’s what I do in order to use their preferred pronouns, but I always wonder when people say it’s never confusing if they either aren’t using it regularly in their life or if they don’t have other groups of people they often talk about at the same time (I could see it being much less likely to be ambiguous in a family with only one kid, for example). 

[Tanaqui]

I've got multiple people in my life, including the older kid, who are nonbinary or agender and use singular they. I do, in fact, use this pronoun regularly. VERY regularly.

The only real consequence to my speech is that now I tend to screw up *everybody's* pronouns, assigning "they" to all sorts of people who use another pronoun. I must say, when the older kid stopped using she/her I did *not* expect that to happen. It was entirely surprising!

[Tanaqui]

(To be clear, this is accidental. I don't do it on purpose and I always correct when I notice it - or, if somebody else corrects me first, I apologize. I have no clue what switch flipped in my brain to make *this* happen. I could understand continually getting the wrong pronoun for the person who changed! It's a new pronoun for them, it's a learning curve. But no, unless I'm talking about them in the past I've got no problems there.)

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

The only real consequence to my speech is that now I tend to screw up *everybody's* pronouns, assigning "they" to all sorts of people who use another pronoun. I must say, when the older kid stopped using she/her I did *not* expect that to happen. It was entirely surprising!

This happens to me as well. I find myself doing a slight hesitation at times before pronouns for my other kids, because my brain has become accustomed to being very careful about the pronouns. It's a bit unnerving that I find myself stumbling over pronouns even for my littlest ones now!

eta: it's surprising to me you don't ever run into confusion. Like I said, it's very common for me to need to clarify which "they" I mean because it's ambiguous in many contexts that I use it. I try to use their name at those times, but sometimes I don't realize until I finish my sentence that what I said was unclear.

Edited November 4, 2021 by KSera

[Tanaqui]

I suppose I run into confusion about as often as I run into confusion between "you" and "you".

Of course, that exact confusion *has* caused people to innovate youse, yinz, you guys, and y'all, among other options. And I do sometimes say, myself, "what all" and "who all" to form the plural of those forms. I'm not quite sure if I got that from my Texan father or some other source.... So maybe, by analogy, people can be made to understand the distinction between "they" and "they all". ("Tha'll"?) It certainly sounds natural enough if I really wanted to emphasize the plural nature. "They ALL wanted to go to the beach" doesn't sound that strange, does it? Sure, that's extra emphatic now, but does it have to stay that way?

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

"They ALL wanted to go to the beach" doesn't sound that strange, does it? Sure, that's extra emphatic now, but does it have to stay that way?

That would help, and I may adopt that for when I'm talking about more than two. They all works well for a group. It doesn't sound right to me if I'm talking about two people (which is probably the most common scenario I have where they is ambiguous). I would want to say "they both" which I guess I could do. I'll play around with that and see if it's helpful.

[Bootsie]

I find the use of a singular "they" confusing much more often than distinguishing between a singular and plural you.  I use "you" when I am speaking to someone or a group of people.  It is clear that I am talking to the people I am addressing.  He/She/They are third person, so it is less clear if I am talking about one person or a group.  When Johnny arrives do they want to eat dinner?  Is "they" Johnny or is they "the kids" or some other group?  There could be confusion regarding "When Johnny arrives do you want to eat dinner?'' whether you simply refers to the person I am addressing or to Johnny and the person I am addressing, but I find that is much less often the case.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

40 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I suppose I run into confusion about as often as I run into confusion between "you" and "you".

Of course, that exact confusion *has* caused people to innovate youse, yinz, you guys, and y'all, among other options. And I do sometimes say, myself, "what all" and "who all" to form the plural of those forms. I'm not quite sure if I got that from my Texan father or some other source.... So maybe, by analogy, people can be made to understand the distinction between "they" and "they all". ("Tha'll"?) It certainly sounds natural enough if I really wanted to emphasize the plural nature. "They ALL wanted to go to the beach" doesn't sound that strange, does it? Sure, that's extra emphatic now, but does it have to stay that way?

That has a meaning beyond emphasis.  It means that all of them wanted to go to the beach - not just one of them or some of them, but all of them. 

[regentrude]

7 hours ago, goldberry said:

Pronoun bunny trail... I am someone who has a REALLY hard time using "them/they" as singular.  We are working on a handbook at my job, and it of course is really clunky to do the he/she thing.  Is they/them really acceptable as singular now?  Would it be acceptable in an employee handbook?

Yes. Singular "they" is now widely used to refer to persons of unknown gender or individuals from mixed gendered groups, even in academic writing. Both AP and Chicago manual style are now including it. It is more appropriate than using the male pronoun as the default.

Edited November 4, 2021 by regentrude

[Carrie12345]

10 hours ago, saraha said:

My question now is, is this a thing? Are students now responsible for using preferred pronouns in their writing? I want to make sure I am steering my kids in the right direction when I help them edit their papers

I’m on team “she probably knows the cultural expectations of this freshman comp class better than we do.” I don’t doubt there are instructors who would require it, those who would simply accept it, and those who would rip it apart.

That said, a person writing under the name Barbara without any internet hits about personal pronouns is so highly likely to go by she/her that I don’t see any issue with the assumption. Due diligence was done.

Throw me a Taylor, Kris, or even Courtney, and I’ll give a different answer. Heck, even Carrie if it’s only verbal or spelled differently!

[kiwik]

10 hours ago, goldberry said:

Pronoun bunny trail... I am someone who has a REALLY hard time using "them/they" as singular.  We are working on a handbook at my job, and it of course is really clunky to do the he/she thing.  Is they/them really acceptable as singular now?  Would it be acceptable in an employee handbook?

Adding example:  When a member is blah blah, they should do blah blah.   Right now we often say, when a member is blah blah, the member should blah blah.  Clunky.

Me too.  I keep wondering who the other person is or picturing someone with two heads.

[Teaching3bears]

Is there time for her to contact the professor to ask?

[Farrar]

Another vote that the singular they for a specific person (because we all know the singular they for a generalized person is not at all awkward in context and has been used for literal centuries and it's disingenuous to say otherwise) does feel awkward at first. And by at first I mean, for a good while. But you do get used to it. My kids also have lots of friends who identify as enby now and it's fine. You eventually adjust.

I think the AP standard makes more sense for journalists who should do their due diligence and find out their subjects' preferred pronouns and if they don't know, should use the most generalized option. I think it makes way less sense for a student writing a lit paper since it's not their job to do investigative research. And that using common sense - a person, especially older than 30 or so, with a very obviously feminine name is a she/her - is a good thing. But also, I'd go by whatever the school's style rules say.

[Jenny in Florida]

13 hours ago, goldberry said:

Pronoun bunny trail... I am someone who has a REALLY hard time using "them/they" as singular.  We are working on a handbook at my job, and it of course is really clunky to do the he/she thing.  Is they/them really acceptable as singular now?  Would it be acceptable in an employee handbook?

Adding example:  When a member is blah blah, they should do blah blah.   Right now we often say, when a member is blah blah, the member should blah blah.  Clunky.

A number of respected outlets have recognized they/them as acceptable for singular usage.

https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/pronouns/gendered_pronouns_and_singular_they.html

I still find it bit clunky, but I have people in my life who feel strongly about the issue, so I am working on it.

I'm currently taking some graduate courses, and the singular they/them doesn't raise eyebrows.

[Kassia]

29 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

A number of respected outlets have recognized they/them as acceptable for singular usage.

https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/pronouns/gendered_pronouns_and_singular_they.html

I still find it bit clunky, but I have people in my life who feel strongly about the issue, so I am working on it.

I'm currently taking some graduate courses, and the singular they/them doesn't raise eyebrows.

I had a tough time with it for a while but now I use it and am comfortable doing so.  

[Tanaqui]

7 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I find the use of a singular "they" confusing much more often than distinguishing between a singular and plural you.  I use "you" when I am speaking to someone or a group of people.  It is clear that I am talking to the people I am addressing.  He/She/They are third person, so it is less clear if I am talking about one person or a group.  When Johnny arrives do they want to eat dinner?  Is "they" Johnny or is they "the kids" or some other group?  There could be confusion regarding "When Johnny arrives do you want to eat dinner?'' whether you simply refers to the person I am addressing or to Johnny and the person I am addressing, but I find that is much less often the case.  

Okay, but English does not have a 100% full complement of pronouns. No language does, of course, because human languages don't work like that and there are always gaps.

Even if you think there's no confusion between "you s" and "you p" (and when this trend was accelerating to use "you" for both senses, you heard all the exact same arguments people now make about singular they, and you can look it up if you doubt me) how about the confusion between "you" (meaning you) and "you" (meaning one)? If I ask "Can you do this?" do I mean "Is it possible for anybody to do this?" or "Would you do this for me?" - and yes, I've had to backtrack and explain a few times.

What about between inclusive and exclusive we? If I say "We" are doing a thing, do I mean "me and my mom but not you" or "me and you with or without some other people"? Some languages have two pronouns for these two concepts.

Or what about "He kissed his wife"? Without a "fourth person" (proximate/obviate distinction for the fancy folks) that sentence is ambiguous as to whose wife, exactly he kissed. (Scandal!)

But if those things come up, you find a way to clarify. You probably don't even notice the awkwardness of phrasing to avoid ambiguity most of the time because you're just used to it.

People find a way when speaking a language. If the confusion is too great, they find a way to make a new form with less confusion. Or, if it's not that big a deal, they adapt and decide it's not a big deal.

It only seems like a really big deal to some speakers *now* because this is relatively novel to them and also because of the sociolinguistic reality of the situation, ie, even if you're not transphobic yourself you're swimming around in a world that's full of transphobes and some of their arguments are likely to take up space in your head. Like "OMG THIS IS SO CONFUSING THERE IS NO PRECEDENT CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER MASS HYSTERIA!!!11!!!"

I mean, it's really not, and in another generation or two nobody will even understand what all the fuss was about about one word.

[SKL]

15 hours ago, saraha said:

DD17 is in a DE English 101 class and had me look over a paper she is working on. She was writing a response to an author's work and was using gender neutral pronouns to refer to both the author and the audience. It was super clunky and confusing, so when I asked about it, she responded that she googled the author and couldn't find anywhere what the author's preferred pronouns were so was using they/them.  I told her that the way she was using them was clunky and awkward and that it is ok to assume the author, Barbara Something, was using female pronouns, and besides, it is an English 101 paper that said author will never see so I doubt she will be offended. She was highly offended on behalf of the author at my response.

My question now is, is this a thing? Are students now responsible for using preferred pronouns in their writing? I want to make sure I am steering my kids in the right direction when I help them edit their papers

Thanks!

I totally agree with you, and yes, this is now a thing. 

IMO if the individual you're talking about hasn't specified that s/he is LGBT+ and/or prefers a pronoun different from what his/her sex would suggest, it is not only OK but respectful to use the traditional pronouns based on xx/xy.

I do remember in high school when my teacher scolded me for using an author's nickname in a research paper about said author.  She said it was disrespectful.  There was less than zero chance said (deceased) author would eve know I had taken such a liberty.  I didn't always agree with her then or now.  😛

[SKL]

15 hours ago, Junie said:

IMO, she/her should be used unless evidence is found that the author prefers different pronouns.

Personally, I would be offended if someone referred to me with gender neutral pronouns.

What pronouns does the author herself use in her writings?  That might give a clue as to whether traditional pronouns or gender-neutral pronouns are preferred.

I was thinking similar, although most likely it would be "I/me."  But the "about the author" sections in books, and 3rd party descriptions on the author's own websites, should be reliable clues.

[SKL]

14 hours ago, goldberry said:

Pronoun bunny trail... I am someone who has a REALLY hard time using "them/they" as singular.  We are working on a handbook at my job, and it of course is really clunky to do the he/she thing.  Is they/them really acceptable as singular now?  Would it be acceptable in an employee handbook?

Adding example:  When a member is blah blah, they should do blah blah.   Right now we often say, when a member is blah blah, the member should blah blah.  Clunky.

I can't get used to it either, and probably never will.  Despite the fact that my kids are big advocates for woke terminology.

[SKL]

I don't want people referring to me as "they."  I would guess most people feel similarly.  Do we really need to state our preferred pronouns in order for this not to happen nowadays?

[Tanaqui]

32 minutes ago, SKL said:

I don't want people referring to me as "they."  I would guess most people feel similarly.  Do we really need to state our preferred pronouns in order for this not to happen nowadays?

 

SKL, your username does not make it clear what sort of pronoun you want.

And this is not a problem limited to the online world! There are many people in this world who have gender neutral names (even if they do have a clearly defined gender) or who have unfamiliar names which may be clearly gendered in their home culture but which do not have any obvious clues in mine.

And it often does come up that we are speaking about somebody whom we haven't met and who does not have a name (or username) which gives us an obvious clue to the gender.

So it's really *always* been the case that if you want to avoid confusion, it can be easier to just tell people outright what pronouns to use.

It's a single short sentence to tack onto your "Hi! My name is - " tag or your email signature, and honestly, I just can't tell why people get so weird about it.

(That's a lie. I can tell. However, the answer does not reflect well on them or you. Truly, "I have to state my pronouns" is a nonissue in both the grand and lesser schemes of things.)

[annandatje]

Haven't we always had a singular "they?"  An example would be:  Someone left their sunglasses at the gas pump.  I hope they (singular) remember where they (singular) left them.

I call people whatever they want to be called.  They (plural) do not get upset when I make the occasional slip up.  All the controversy swirling around this pronoun issue would be amusing if it were not "real."

Change is hard, especially for oldsters.  Since I am not very involved in social media or in monitoring pop culture, I never learned that "hook up" now had risque meaning that involved much more than simply meeting friend or acquaintance for coffee or lunch until I used term in a conversation was having at work.  Fortunately, a thoughtful compassionate younger co-worker clued me in on the more common modern usage of the term.

[Farrar]

Ooh, you know what feature the forum needs? Why can't we include our pronouns on our profiles so they pop up under our avatars?

[MEmama]

19 minutes ago, annandatje said:

Haven't we always had a singular "they?"  An example would be:  Someone left their sunglasses at the gas pump.  I hope they (singular) remember where they (singular) left them.

I call people whatever they want to be called.  They (plural) do not get upset when I make the occasional slip up.  All the controversy swirling around this pronoun issue would be amusing if it were not "real."

Yes. It predates Shakespeare in written works. In spoken terms I’d suppose we have always used it. 
It’s disingenuous of anyone to pretend otherwise. 

[goldberry]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I can't get used to it either, and probably never will.  Despite the fact that my kids are big advocates for woke terminology.

I don't consider it woke, since for a long time I have felt that saying "he" as the default for both male and female did not seem right.  Especially since I work at a fire station, where the female firefighters already feel kind of left out.  I don't think that's a "woke" position.   I absolutely hated the clunkiness of "he or she" though.  In my mind, totally separate from the non-binary issue.  I am not used to "they" but at least it includes everyone.

[bolt.]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I don't want people referring to me as "they."  I would guess most people feel similarly.  Do we really need to state our preferred pronouns in order for this not to happen nowadays?

I'm sure many people refer to you as "they" when you are not around, or when they talk about you in an abstract sense. If you are uncomfortable about this level of abstraction by the general public, I think you might be being a bit sensitive. It's been normal for a long time, and it has probably been happening your whole life. (Are you a bus driver? People will say about you, "The bus driver missed their stop!" Are you a student? People will say about you, "My first student turned in their paper today." Do you go grocery shopping? People will say about you, "Wow, that shopper spent a lot on their credit card!")

On the other hand...

When you are personally present, people will usually take your gender presentation into account and default to that pronoun (if you have an obvious gender presentation) unless otherwise specified. This is still normal in the vast majority of spaces, even fairly 'woke' ones. Most places you go, very few people will default to "they" when a person is right there in front of them giving fairly obvious visual gender cues. So I don't think you need to worry about that.

(In environments that are on the cutting edge of gender inclusion there are people who might use a default "they" -- but those are the same folks who are likely to inquire about your pronouns during an introduction, so as not use any default at all. This gives you the opportunity to state your serious preference for gendered pronouns before anyone has a chance to offend you.)

[Bootsie]

30 minutes ago, annandatje said:

Haven't we always had a singular "they?"  An example would be:  Someone left their sunglasses at the gas pump.  I hope they (singular) remember where they (singular) left them.

 

In my English classes, I was taught that this was incorrect use of "their"; I was taught that it should be "someone left his sunglasses at the pump.  I hope he remembers where he left them."  I would have received a lower grade on a paper if I used "their" to refer to someone.  And, then if you say, "Someone left their glasses at the pump. I hope they realize before they drive too far"--the verb drive that is used with a plural subject (they) is used rather than "i hope they realize before they drives too far"  (it would be before he drives too far or before she drives to far".  

I know that English is not being taught across the board like this anymore.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Bootsie

[MEmama]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CUkwv6epqIv/?utm_medium=copy_link
 

Maybe this will help anyone who thinks the use of singular they is something they (see?) don’t already do or can’t get used to. 
 

Warning—it’s kinda silly. 🙂 

Edited November 4, 2021 by MEmama

[SKL]

29 minutes ago, annandatje said:

Haven't we always had a singular "they?"  An example would be:  Someone left their sunglasses at the gas pump.  I hope they (singular) remember where they (singular) left them.

I call people whatever they want to be called.  They (plural) do not get upset when I make the occasional slip up.  All the controversy swirling around this pronoun issue would be amusing if it were not "real."

Change is hard, especially for oldsters.  Since I am not very involved in social media or in monitoring pop culture, I never learned that "hook up" now had risque meaning that involved much more than simply meeting friend or acquaintance for coffee or lunch until I used term in a conversation was having at work.  Fortunately, a thoughtful compassionate younger co-worker clued me in on the more common modern usage of the term.

My generation was taught a singular "they" was poor English, just like "him and me went to the park" is poor English.  So no, we haven't always had a singular "they" other than in incorrect usage (in English at least).

[SKL]

While "s/he" and "his/her" are a bit more awkward than the plain singluar pronouns, I still find them less awkward than "they" when I'm only talking about one person.

My kid who is very particular about clear speech used to say "he or she" even when she was a preschooler, because she didn't want to be confusing.  (I did not teach this, it just felt right to her.)  So I don't agree that it's awkward.  However, the old way of dealing with this was to just use "he" to mean either he or she.  Which young people nowadays have not been taught to understand - hence a lot of misunderstandings when they are reading slightly older material.

[MEmama]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

While "s/he" and "his/her" are a bit more awkward than the plain singluar pronouns, I still find them less awkward than "they" when I'm only talking about one person.

My kid who is very particular about clear speech used to say "he or she" even when she was a preschooler, because she didn't want to be confusing.  (I did not teach this, it just felt right to her.)  So I don't agree that it's awkward.  However, the old way of dealing with this was to just use "he" to mean either he or she.  Which young people nowadays have not been taught to understand - hence a lot of misunderstandings when they are reading slightly older material.

They understand— that he as the default is a relic of patriarchal dominance. 

Time to let it go. Singular they has always been used in the English language, going back at least hundreds of years. It’s non offensive, we all say it all the time, it’s not “woke” or “just for the LGBTQ+ community”. There’s simply no reason to be offended when it’s used nor if you are asked to use it. And it’s definitely not just for the younger generations. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Yes. It predates Shakespeare in written works. In spoken terms I’d suppose we have always used it. 
It’s disingenuous of anyone to pretend otherwise. 

I think it’s important not to be disingenuous in either direction on this. Singular they has long been used to refer to an unknown person, but not for a known, specific person (there’s a linguistic term for this difference that is slipping my mind at the moment). Our brain does parse that difference, though. 

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

In my English classes, I was taught that this was incorrect use of "their"; I was taught that it should be "someone left his sunglasses at the pump.  I hope he remembers where he left them." 

I think it’s a good thing that we’ve moved on from using “he” as our default pronoun. (Although, interestingly, many of the transgender kids I know would be okay with that. They often prefer either they or he, interchangeably. I do think it’s unfortunate that it’s often anything but the dreaded “she/her” 😕)

Edited November 4, 2021 by KSera
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