So any comments on the Stella Immanuel Video?

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

The infection that I am referring to happened inside an office setting with many young people (and also many people over 55 years) in that office. The young people in this group asked for HCQ and they were initially refused the drug because the doctors said that it was far too dangerous to use and that there was not enough proof of its efficacy in the treatment of COVID. This group insisted that they wanted to take this drug and had to lobby hard to get it (some of them had already taken it as a preventative against malaria during charity trips to Africa in the past without experiencing side effects). It is my understanding that doctors are not giving this drug away for the asking because this group had to lobby hard to get it prescribed. Which is why I said it is anecdotal. It worked for them because they recovered fully and are back at work while some of their coworkers did not make a full recovery and are still hospitalized. 

None of this is any evidence that the drug "worked for them" or played any role in their recovery, nor is the fact that some coworkers (apparently not all ?) who didn't receive the drug are still ill.  All this shows is that the drug did not cause them serious harm. The reason they recovered may just as well be that they were young.

Edited July 29, 2020 by regentrude

[Corraleno]

7 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

I’m curious about the placebo. In one of the studies I read about early on, they were using Vitamin C as the placebo. Vitamin C therapy has been used in the treatment of Covid in some places, so the argument was that you may not see the hydroxychloroquine as being effective because it’s not actually being studied against a true placebo. I’m not saying it is or isn’t effective, just that it may sway any promising results if that is indeed the case. I think knowing things like that matter.

The placebo used in the U of MN study (the one cited in the post you were responding to) was folate, not Vit C.

 

[Momto6inIN]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

https://archive.fo/G7wtb#selection-4925.0-4928.0

https://archive.fo/wWX03

There's a lot more stuff. That lady is clearly off her rocker.

So I posted this link on my Facebook along with the following: 

Dear friends who are sharing the video from Breitbart about the doctors on the courthouse steps:
One of the women in the video is involved in Fire Power Ministries, where this attached archive is from. Since the press conference, they have taken down their website, so archives are what we have to look at. Click the link at your own risk. But basically this woman believes that demons coming in your dreams to engage in sex with you is a real life problem in the church today and that it causes gynecological problems.
I don't have any idea if the drug they are talking about is effective or not. Maybe it is. But I sure wouldn't trust this woman's medical opinion about it.
 

 

I'll let you all know if my Facebook explodes 🤣

[EmseB]

3 hours ago, square_25 said:

I don’t know that it’s silly. It makes them responsible for disseminating it. They’d rather not.

It's silly to try to prevent a video from existing on the internet in this day and age. It's practically impossible.

If we want to argue about their liability or responsibility, that seems a strange thing because then you have large corporate interests essentially responsible for or liable for whatever anyone wants to put on the internet and censoring whatever might lose them money. I'm not sure that's any better than government prohibition of speech and it's easy to see how the two get aligned when you look at Googles relationship with China, for example.

There are a dozen idiotic and plain wrong videos that come across my sm feeds daily. We really want a team at fb or Google or whatver corporations deciding which are "dangerous" and which are "safe" to view?

I'm still in the sunlight-is-the-best-disinfectant camp, especially with stuff like this. Trying to hide it is only fanning the flames of conspiracy among my covid truther friends, and in a big way. Much bigger than plandemic or those other two urgent care docs.

[Corraleno]

5 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

At least these are medical professionals.

And yes, I agree this is not the norm, but maybe they just wanted their voices to be heard. 

This was not a spontaneous gathering of selfless, dedicated doctors who just want to save lives with a miracle cure that Dark Forces are trying to keep from the public. This video was a publicity stunt organized and paid for by a pro-Trump political action committee called Tea Party Patriots, who oppose any kind of public mitigation measures like lockdowns, masking, virtual schools, etc. The point of the video isn't even HCQ, it's that all these mitigation measures are unnecessary because HCQ can both cure and prevent Covid, so we can reopen everything and get back to business ASAP — or at least before the election.

The doctor who believes in demon sperm and lizard people and alien DNA in vaccines, who offers medical treatments like "removing curses" from a woman's uterus to cure infertility, claims that she has cured 350 patients within 24 hours without offering ANY evidence or proof, while calling large, randomized, placebo-controlled studies "fake science" and referring to doctors who won't prescribe HCQ as "Nazis."

Dan Erickson, the doctor in the group who falsely claimed that lockdowns don't work because Sweden has fewer deaths than the UK (without mentioning that Sweden has one of the worst death rates in the entire world, more than 10 times the death rate of Norway) is one of the two Bakersfield doctors who previously posted a video (now removed) claiming that deaths were being vastly inflated and pushing other conspiracy theories.

This is a politically motivated publicity stunt designed to convince people that we can reopen the economy, send everyone back to work, send kids to schools, and stop masking. The fake information about HCQ is just the means to that end.

[Corraleno]

8 minutes ago, EmseB said:

It's silly to try to prevent a video from existing on the internet in this day and age. It's practically impossible.

If we want to argue about their liability or responsibility, that seems a strange thing because then you have large corporate interests essentially responsible for or liable for whatever anyone wants to put on the internet and censoring whatever might lose them money. I'm not sure that's any better than government prohibition of speech and it's easy to see how the two get aligned when you look at Googles relationship with China, for example.

There are a dozen idiotic and plain wrong videos that come across my sm feeds daily. We really want a team at fb or Google or whatver corporations deciding which are "dangerous" and which are "safe" to view?

I'm still in the sunlight-is-the-best-disinfectant camp, especially with stuff like this. Trying to hide it is only fanning the flames of conspiracy among my covid truther friends, and in a big way. Much bigger than plandemic or those other two urgent care docs.

One of those doctors, Dan Erickson, is part of the new video as well.

[katilac]

10 minutes ago, EmseB said:

It's silly to try to prevent a video from existing on the internet in this day and age. It's practically impossible.

Nobody's trying to prevent it from existing on the internet. She can put it on her own site if she likes, or find other sites willing to host. 

[KidsHappen]

30 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

This was not a spontaneous gathering of selfless, dedicated doctors who just want to save lives with a miracle cure that Dark Forces are trying to keep from the public. This video was a publicity stunt organized and paid for by a pro-Trump political action committee called Tea Party Patriots, who oppose any kind of public mitigation measures like lockdowns, masking, virtual schools, etc. The point of the video isn't even HCQ, it's that all these mitigation measures are unnecessary because HCQ can both cure and prevent Covid, so we can reopen everything and get back to business ASAP — or at least before the election.

The doctor who believes in demon sperm and lizard people and alien DNA in vaccines, who offers medical treatments like "removing curses" from a woman's uterus to cure infertility, claims that she has cured 350 patients within 24 hours without offering ANY evidence or proof, while calling large, randomized, placebo-controlled studies "fake science" and referring to doctors who won't prescribe HCQ as "Nazis."

Dan Erickson, the doctor in the group who falsely claimed that lockdowns don't work because Sweden has fewer deaths than the UK (without mentioning that Sweden has one of the worst death rates in the entire world, more than 10 times the death rate of Norway) is one of the two Bakersfield doctors who previously posted a video (now removed) claiming that deaths were being vastly inflated and pushing other conspiracy theories.

This is a politically motivated publicity stunt designed to convince people that we can reopen the economy, send everyone back to work, send kids to schools, and stop masking. The fake information about HCQ is just the means to that end.

I have watched the video a few times and I do not recall her saying that she cured these patients within 24 hours. She said that she cured them over the past few months.

[Corraleno]

34 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

I have watched the video a few times and I do not recall her saying that she cured these patients within 24 hours. She said that she cured them over the past few months.

She claims that all her patients get better within 24 hours of receiving HCQ:

[Katy]

On 7/29/2020 at 9:16 AM, StaceyinLA said:

 

So if her “beliefs” don’t line up with others, that automatically means she’s lying about her experiences here? That’s all I’m saying. I mean good gracious they have a lot of doctors whose beliefs wouldn’t line up with mine, but I don’t believe that necessarily negates their experiences as a doctor.

Sharing success with medical treatments that others have also shared successes with doesn’t seem like a conspiracy theory to me. 

 

Putting aside the fact that belief in dreaming about demons causing diseases like endometriosis (that people are born with!) and anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about alien lizard people ruling government are a strong sign of mental illness...

The reason she's lying is because she doesn't have hospital privileges anywhere and has published nothing but a few social media rants.  Those who have published on her claims found exactly the opposite conclusions she claims.  She has no evidence whatsoever, and all evidence available points to her being more of a witch doctor than a medical doctor.

How far off the crazy chain would she have to be for you to see she is a quack?  I'm sure she will eventually lose her medical license for this crap, but that will likely take more than a year. 

 

[TechWife]

This is a very good & important piece about conspiracy theories that my fellow Christians need to read and consider. 
 

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/coronavirus-conspiracy-theories-and

[mathnerd]

21 hours ago, square_25 said:

Well, that’ll be helpful only if we have some idea of what percentage of their population actually gets COVID, right?

Like, Singapore has a really low death rate right now, but that seems to be a demographic thing?

https://health.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/pharma/why-icmr-continues-to-stand-firm-on-using-hydroxychloroquine-as-prophylaxis/76172274

(PS: this has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread and does not support this person who hates Harry Potter and talks about the wrath of Jesus on Facebook's servers 😉 )

[Malory]

This doctor seems to have better credibility than Stella Immanuel and he is saying the medicine works.

https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Malory said:

This doctor seems to have better credibility than Stella Immanuel and he is saying the medicine works.

https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

He's just summarizing the studies that are out there. Most of the people on this thread have already read many of the actual studies he's talking about, not just opinion pieces claiming the studies show that it works. There have also been studies showing that it does not work, and in general the negative studies have been higher quality than the positive ones. If any randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trials appear in the near future showing that it does have significant benefit, I'm sure opinions will change, but for the moment the general debate is whether nonrandomized, non placebo-controlled studies and retrospective analyses are good enough evidence in favor of HCQ when higher quality studies show no benefit.

[ktgrok]

On 7/29/2020 at 2:13 PM, mathnerd said:

 

It worked for them because they recovered fully and are back at work

 

 

We have no idea if it worked. WE don't know if they recovered because of the meds, or despite the meds. Many many people recover who never took HCQ. If someone gets it and recovers and drinks diet coke all day, that does not mean diet coke cured them, or "works" as a Covid cure. Correlation does not equal causation. A foundational principal of science and math that I'd expect someone with the name mathnerd to understand. And would hope all homeschool parents are teaching their children. 

On 7/29/2020 at 4:09 PM, EmseB said:

It's silly to try to prevent a video from existing on the internet in this day and age. It's practically impossible.

 

Who is trying to prevent it from existing? 

Not wanting to personally host that video on their own company's platform is not the same as trying to eradicate it from the internet. 

I choose not to serve peas in my house, because the smell makes me gag. I don't want to have peas on my dining table. But I am not trying to eradicate peas from the world. Anyone else is welcome to cook and serve peas in their own home. But I won't. 

Twitter and youtube do not want to serve this video at their tables. They don't like the stench. That doesn't mean they are keeping other companies or private individuals from serving it themselves. 

 

[ktgrok]

Hearing people say, "well, yeah, she's a liar, and she thinks actual medical problems are caused by demon sperm, and that lizard people are putting alien DNA in vaccines for mind control, and some of the other people in the video lied about their credentials too, and they didn't present any evidence at all to back up their claims...but that doesn't mean I shouldn't believe it" is making my head hurt. 

Did y'all not teach your children to examine a source for credibility before citing it as evidence? 

[Corraleno]

9 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Hearing people say, "well, yeah, she's a liar, and she thinks actual medical problems are caused by demon sperm, and that lizard people are putting alien DNA in vaccines for mind control, and some of the other people in the video lied about their credentials too, and they didn't present any evidence at all to back up their claims...but that doesn't mean I shouldn't believe it" is making my head hurt. 

At first I was puzzled by why they would choose doctors with such clearly dodgy credentials when there are plenty of reputable doctors who do think it works and have published actual data to support their opinion. But then I realized that they needed people who would not only claim that HCQ works, but were wiling to claim that it's a quick, easy, universal cure, and that if everyone would just take HCQ then we could open all businesses, send everyone back to in-person school, stop wearing masks, stop distancing, etc. Using dodgy doctors actually helped the video go viral and generate a lot more attention, and it set up exactly the narrative they wanted: All these deaths, all this economic damage, all the inconvenience we are experiencing right now is not the result of the disastrous lack of response at the federal level, it's all because "they" are keeping the miracle cure away from us! And the only reason "they" are blocking HCQ use is so they can blame the ruined economy and hundreds of thousands of deaths on our poor beleaguered president who totally wanted you to have the cure the whole time! None of this is his fault!

[Ausmumof3]

Dr Stella seems to be quite happy with all the publicity 
 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[popmom]

On 7/29/2020 at 3:15 PM, square_25 said:

I don't think they are preventing it from existing. They are just not spreading it. I am pretty sure anyone can buy server space and post it there.

I don't know if it's "better" or "worse," but would you really like private companies NOT to be able to police speech within their realm? 

 

I think one of the problems we are having (and why people are alarmed at what they see as "silencing") is that the private companies like Youtube and other social media platforms haven't done much policing up until recently. Consider the alarming rise of paganism and white supremacy among young white men in our country. These young men have been recruited on many different platforms. 

Here is a link to consider for those who say "that's not the way it's done" regarding debate. Maybe not much in the past, but the last time there was a pandemic of this magnitude, there was no internet, no social media, etc. Perhaps now is the time to change the way the scientific community interacts with lay people. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by popmom

[ktgrok]

11 minutes ago, popmom said:

 

I think one of the problems we are having (and why people are alarmed at what they see as "silencing") is that the private companies like Youtube and other social media platforms haven't done much policing up until recently. Consider the alarming rise of paganism and white supremacy among young white men in our country. These young men have been recruited on many different platforms. 

Here is a link to consider for those who say "that's not the way it's done" regarding debate. Maybe not much in the past, but the last time there was a pandemic of this magnitude, there was no internet, no social media, etc. Perhaps now is the time to change the way the scientific community interacts with lay people. 

A woman posting about succubus and incubus as medical issues is not part of the scientific community. 

[popmom]

12 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

A woman posting about succubus and incubus as medical issues is not part of the scientific community. 

fallacy

[Happy2BaMom]

27 minutes ago, popmom said:

 

I think one of the problems we are having (and why people are alarmed at what they see as "silencing") is that the private companies like Youtube and other social media platforms haven't done much policing up until recently. Consider the alarming rise of paganism and white supremacy among young white men in our country. These young men have been recruited on many different platforms. 

Here is a link to consider for those who say "that's not the way it's done" regarding debate. Maybe not much in the past, but the last time there was a pandemic of this magnitude, there was no internet, no social media, etc. Perhaps now is the time to change the way the scientific community interacts with lay people. 

 

Many lay people have no interest in listening to scientists. The problem does not lay with a lack of communication on the part of scientists. The problem lays in the fact that scientists will not say what certain lay people want them to say.

[Ausmumof3]

28 minutes ago, popmom said:

 

I think one of the problems we are having (and why people are alarmed at what they see as "silencing") is that the private companies like Youtube and other social media platforms haven't done much policing up until recently. Consider the alarming rise of paganism and white supremacy among young white men in our country. These young men have been recruited on many different platforms. 

Here is a link to consider for those who say "that's not the way it's done" regarding debate. Maybe not much in the past, but the last time there was a pandemic of this magnitude, there was no internet, no social media, etc. Perhaps now is the time to change the way the scientific community interacts with lay people. 

Facebook have been policing for ever.  Breastfeeding posts, animal selling posts, posts around hunting!

[popmom]

the forums need a logical fallacy button

[Happy2BaMom]

4 hours ago, Malory said:

This doctor seems to have better credibility than Stella Immanuel and he is saying the medicine works.

https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

 

Dr Hirsch has appeared on Fox News and references a French study that ended up being discredited (not the more recent Lancet one) and also makes a huge deal about his pro hydroxy paper being published in an epidemiology journal without mentioning that he sits on the editorial board of same journal. He's not as neutral as he likes to claim.

At this point, I think it's worthwhile to remember why the the FDA does not endorse hydroxycholoroquine for COVID. The reasoning isn’t because it hasn’t or won’t work to some degree for *some* people in *certain* situations or in combination with other drugs. It’s that the risks outweigh the limited benefits found.

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-cautions-against-use-hydroxychloroquine-or-chloroquine-covid-19-outside-hospital-setting-or

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-revokes-emergency-use-authorization-chloroquine-and

Not that any of this matters. People hear what they want to hear.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Happy2BaMom

[historically accurate]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

fallacy

If she's appealing to authority in her argument (and I believe that is the actual basis of her argument as the video is called "The White Coat Summit"), then I believe it is perfectly all right to take issue with her far-fetched, to say the least, ideas. She has presented no concrete evidence for us to look at, just a story that as a doctor she is curing patients with this drug combination. If I can't trust her view of female health, the why should I trust her view of COVID? 

If that means I'm falling into some logic trap, then so be it. I neither listen to nor patronize doctors who believe endometriosis and fibroid tumors are dream demon sperm problems. 

Edited July 31, 2020 by beckyjo
spelling is hard

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, popmom said:

Here is a link to consider for those who say "that's not the way it's done" regarding debate. Maybe not much in the past, but the last time there was a pandemic of this magnitude, there was no internet, no social media, etc. Perhaps now is the time to change the way the scientific community interacts with lay people. 

From the linked article:

The underlying premise that individuals are “empty vessels” in which to fill with information has been challenged and critiqued by other studies, however. Contemporary scholarship has found that attitudes and beliefs towards some science topics are inherently intertwined with political ideology and other variables (e.g., religiosity) that have, on preliminary observation, seemingly nothing to do with science literacy and acceptance [Drummond and Fischhoff, 2017]. In particular, Kahan, Jenkins-Smith and Braman [2011] found that an individual’s cultural cognition will oftentimes trump scientific findings, regardless of the specific issue under investigation. Results demonstrated that participants engaged in a form of motivated reasoning to “recognize such information as sound in a selective pattern that reinforces their cultural predispositions” [Kahan, Jenkins-Smith and Braman, 2011, p. 169]. Similarly, Hart and Nisbet [2011] discovered that factual information about climate change did not alter the level of support for climate change mitigation statutes. Instead, group identity signals as well as political affiliation were shown to affect how climate change information was treated. Past research has also shown that stressing the consensus position can actually cause a backlash effect and strengthen fabricated beliefs [Dixon et al., 2015; Kahan, 2015]. Additional scholarship within communication and psychology supports the overall assertion that factual information will not necessarily lead to attitude and/or behavioral change due to the inherent clout of ideological beliefs and cognitive biases [Allum et al., 2008; Howe and Leiserowitz, 2013; Kahan et al., 2012; Myers et al., 2012; Sturgis and Allum, 2004].

 

(1) The bolded, regarding the "backlash effect," is particularly true when the proponents of anti-scientific theories build into their argument the "explanation" that the reason scientists do not agree with them, is because there is a vast conspiracy to suppress the truth. The claims made by people like Stella Immanuel and those who believe her include exactly that argument — HCQ is a miracle cure but "they" don't want you to use it for nefarious political reasons, not scientific reasons. That argument is only strengthened, not countered, by pointing out that most scientists disagree with it.

(2) Scientists cannot have a scientific argument based on analysis of data if one side offers no data.

(3) There is no point in having a logical argument about nonexistent data, since it is perfectly possible to create an argument that is logically valid but factually false because it is based on flawed assumptions.

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Corraleno

[Wheres Toto]

39 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

A woman posting about succubus and incubus as medical issues is not part of the scientific community. 

Am I the only one bothered because it should be incubi and succubi?   Or it should have been "an incubus".

[Corraleno]

6 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

Am I the only one bothered because it should be incubi and succubi?   

Speak for yourself, my relationship with my incubus is strictly monogamous. 😉 I'm bummed that he never gets to spend the night, though.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Corraleno

[ktgrok]

56 minutes ago, popmom said:

fallacy

Science does not support demons as a source of disease. Therefore, she is not part of the scientific community. 

[matrips]

Just an update - One of the doctors was fired today - Dr Simone Gold- the emergency medicine physician.

And she confirmed her website was taken down by someone else, not her.  She did a quick rebuild with another url. She said she was surprised the short press conference was the focal point of what made the news, since they did 7 hours of teaching/seminars/q&a that day.  

Majorly paraphrasing here- It seemed their main point was that doctors and patients are being overruled in their decisions to pursue to a medical treatment, and they wanted the doctors and patients to decide about hcq without government interference.

 

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, matrips said:

Just an update - One of the doctors was fired today - Dr Simone Gold- the emergency medicine physician.

And she confirmed her website was taken down by someone else, not her.  She did a quick rebuild with another url. She said she was surprised the short press conference was the focal point of what made the news, since they did 7 hours of teaching/seminars/q&a that day.  

Majorly paraphrasing here- It seemed their main point was that doctors and patients are being overruled in their decisions to pursue to a medical treatment, and they wanted the doctors and patients to decide about hcq without government interference.

 

Fired from where? The hospital she claimed to work at said she didn't work there. 

And who was her website taken down by? The hosting company? Some mysterious "other"?

[Corraleno]

15 minutes ago, matrips said:

Just an update - One of the doctors was fired today - Dr Simone Gold- the emergency medicine physician.

And she confirmed her website was taken down by someone else, not her.  She did a quick rebuild with another url. She said she was surprised the short press conference was the focal point of what made the news, since they did 7 hours of teaching/seminars/q&a that day.  

Majorly paraphrasing here- It seemed their main point was that doctors and patients are being overruled in their decisions to pursue to a medical treatment, and they wanted the doctors and patients to decide about hcq without government interference.

 

It is not true that doctors are being "overruled" in their decisions to prescribe HCQ for their patients. They are already free to do so without government interference:

The FDA doesn’t police so-called off-label prescribing, where a doctor uses an FDA-approved drug to treat a condition or other ailment that the drug isn’t approved to treat. Since hydroxychloroquine is approved  to treat malaria and lupus, doctors can use it to treat any condition they want, including Covid-19. The FDA’s decision to revoke this authorization doesn’t take that right away.

“Withdrawing the emergency use authorization may have relatively little practical impact,” said Rachel Sachs, an associate professor of law at Washington University in St. Louis, citing the fact that doctors can still prescribe hydroxychloroquine off-label.

ETA: Can you link a source regarding Simone Gold being fired? Although she liked to imply that she worked at a hospital, I thought her website said she was a "concierge" doctor who owned her own practice.

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Corraleno

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

It is not true that doctors are being "overruled" in their decisions to prescribe HCQ for their patients. They are already free to do so without government interference:

The FDA doesn’t police so-called off-label prescribing, where a doctor uses an FDA-approved drug to treat a condition or other ailment that the drug isn’t approved to treat. Since hydroxychloroquine is approved  to treat malaria and lupus, doctors can use it to treat any condition they want, including Covid-19. The FDA’s decision to revoke this authorization doesn’t take that right away.

“Withdrawing the emergency use authorization may have relatively little practical impact,” said Rachel Sachs, an associate professor of law at Washington University in St. Louis, citing the fact that doctors can still prescribe hydroxychloroquine off-label.

 

 

Exactly. Doctors prescribe things off label ALL THE TIME. 

[Acadie]

I haven't read this whole thread, but in responding to a FB contact's post about it I was accused of being racist and anti-religion and supporting pedophilia.

Um, what????

At the same time, I noticed posts on sex trafficking and pedophiles in general, and Epstein/Maxwell in particular, showing up on my FB feed from other friends, closer friends who support similar causes as the person who made these accusations. 

For the record, I could not be more opposed on personal, ethical, moral and religious grounds to the trafficking of human beings and exploitation of children. I routinely update my Virtus training at my church so I'm eligible to volunteer with children and young adults. And in the past I have reported, and would report any future concerns to law enforcement. Maxwell should be charged to the full extent of the law, and I support robust examination of what happened to Epstein.

But why is this showing up on social media from multiple people who don't know each other in response to any questions about Stella Immanuel's fitness for prescribing pharmaceuticals when she expresses absolute certainty that sex with demon lovers causes miscarriage, molar pregnancy and endometriosis? My point was simply to raise this question--Is this the kind of person you trust to prescribe medication that requires medical monitoring and is potentially lethal, at low doses, to children in your family?

At best, this is a diversion tactic from the real issue, that we have not addressed and controlled the pandemic anywhere near as effectively as other developed countries and that this represents total failure of our political leadership.

My other thought was Russian bots, whose aim is foment confusion and division and the breakdown of the norms of democracy. Seriously.

If I raise questions about the medical beliefs of a doctor who sees demon lovers as the cause of common obstetric and gynecological issues, and am charged with being racist, anti-religion and supporting pedophilia, and all of the comments and likes are in support of the person who made those charges? What is going on in our country? 

Has anyone else encountered this on social media recently? 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Acadie

[Spryte]

No one is stopping doctors from prescribing HCQ.

I took it for years for an off label use (babesiosis, anyone?).  
 

ETA:  I had to have quite a bit of monitoring while on it, plus vision checks.  
 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Spryte

[Corraleno]

This is Stella Immanuel's clinic, clearly advertising that they can and will give you HCQ for Covid. Doctors can't claim the government is preventing them from prescribing HCQ while simultaneously claiming to have cured hundreds of Covid patients with it.

[Corraleno]

10 minutes ago, Acadie said:

I haven't read this whole thread, but in responding to a FB contact's post about it I was accused of being racist and anti-religion and supporting pedophilia.

Um, what????

At the same time, I noticed posts on sex trafficking and pedophiles in general, and Epstein/Maxwell in particular, showing up on my FB feed from other friends, closer friends who support similar causes as the person who made these accusations. 

For the record, I could not be more opposed on personal, ethical, moral and religious grounds to the trafficking of human beings and exploitation of children. I routinely update my Virtus training at my church so I'm eligible to volunteer with children and young adults. And in the past I have reported, and would report any future concerns to law enforcement. Maxwell should be charged to the full extent of the law, and I support robust examination of what happened to Epstein.

But why is this showing up on social media from multiple people who don't know each other in response to any questions about Dr. Immanuel's fitness for prescribing pharmaceuticals when she expresses absolute certainty that sex with demon lovers causes miscarriage, molar pregnancy and endometriosis? My point was simply to raise this question--Is this the kind of person you trust to prescribe medication that requires medical monitoring and is potentially lethal, at low doses, to children in your family?

At best, this is a diversion tactic from the real issue, that we have not addressed and controlled the pandemic anywhere near as effectively as other developed countries and that this represents total failure of our political leadership.

My other thought was Russian bots, whose aim is foment confusion and division and the breakdown of the norms of democracy. 

Seriously. If I raise questions about the medical beliefs of a doctor who sees demon lovers as the cause of common obstetric and gynecological issues, and am charged with being racist, anti-religion and supporting pedophilia? What is going on in our country? 

Has anyone else encountered this on social media recently? 

That's QAnon stuff — Trump is heroically fighting against a global cabal of Satanists who run a sex trafficking/pedophile ring that includes the Clintons, Obama, George Soros, and most Democrats. Remember Pizzagate? If you don't support Trump, then clearly you are on the side of the Satanic pedophiles.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Corraleno

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Acadie said:

haven't read this whole thread, but in responding to a FB contact's post about it I was accused of being racist and anti-religion and supporting pedophilia.

Um, what????

I’m not 100% sure about this but I think it has to do with QAnnon. “Believers” in QAnnon have this whole extremely confusing backstory about sex trafficking, pedophilia and something about how Trump alone is getting rid of it. I seriously can’t follow it at all, but one of my FB “friends” (whom I snoozed because I was sick to death of the anti-mask, pro-trump posts) was furious when QAnon was banned from Twitter (? I think, or another platform) and in her ragey post, she referred to pedophilia and sex-trafficking like only trump is going to address that. 

I don’t know. Russian bots, maybe. 

[Acadie]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

That's QAnon stuff — Trump is heroically fighting against a global cabal of Satanists who run a sex trafficking/pedophile ring, and including the Clintons, Obama, George Soros, and most Democrats. Remember Pizzagate? If you don't support Trump, then clearly you are on the side of the Satanic pedophiles.

 

1 minute ago, Quill said:

I’m not 100% sure about this but I think it has to do with QAnnon. “Believers” in QAnnon have this whole extremely confusing backstory about sex trafficking, pedophilia and something about how Trump alone is getting rid of it. I seriously can’t follow it at all, but one of my FB “friends” (whom I snoozed because I was sick to death of the anti-mask, pro-trump posts) was furious when QAnon was banned from Twitter (? I think, or another platform) and in her ragey post, she referred to pedophilia and sex-trafficking like only trump is going to address that. 

I don’t know. Russian bots, maybe. 

 

Just now, square_25 said:

The QAnon thing is so weird. 

 

Thanks, I do remember Pizzagate. That helps me put it in perspective. What especially freaked me out was a really close friend, whose judgment I've trusted, has been posting a lot about sex trafficking at the same time. 

Not that it's not an important issue--but I think more interest groups are getting sucked in to the QAnon worldview unawares.

[katilac]

 

7 minutes ago, matrips said:

Just an update - One of the doctors was fired today - Dr Simone Gold- the emergency medicine physician.

And she confirmed her website was taken down by someone else, not her.  She did a quick rebuild with another url. She said she was surprised the short press conference was the focal point of what made the news, since they did 7 hours of teaching/seminars/q&a that day.  

Majorly paraphrasing here- It seemed their main point was that doctors and patients are being overruled in their decisions to pursue to a medical treatment, and they wanted the doctors and patients to decide about hcq without government interference.

 

She was surprised that the topic they held the press conference on was the main thing that made the news? That strikes me as disingenuous. If they wanted something else from their 7 hours of activity that day to be the focal point, then that's what they should have covered in the press conference. 

There is absolutely nothing new about government 'interference' in medical treatment, in the sense that there are always rules, always a process for medical treatments. However, it's important to point out that hcq hasn't been banned; revoking the Emergency Use Authorization means that the FDA doesn't have confidence that it is an effective treatment for covid, and they don't recommend using it for that. It was not an approved use, they gave an EUA making it one, and then revoked the EUA. Doctors can still prescribe it "off label" as they do for other drugs,  off label simply being an unapproved use of an approved drug. It could be using an approved drug for a medical condition it is not approved to treat (like hcq for covid), or using it in a different way or a different dose. 

 I was wondering why the FDA bothered with the EUA to begin with if it could already be used off label. If I understand correctly, the biggest reason seems to be that it allowed them to distribute hcq from the National Strategic Stockpile to the states, something it could not do if it weren't an authorized use. Making the statement that they think it might be effective would be another reason, with revoking the EUA making the opposite statement: we no longer think it's a good treatment. 

 

[TCB]

23 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

This is Stella Immanuel's clinic, clearly advertising that they can and will give you HCQ for Covid. Doctors can't claim the government is preventing them from prescribing HCQ while simultaneously claiming to have cured hundreds of Covid patients with it.

That is exactly what so many do on the conspiracy side of things! Masks let everything through/ oxygen and CO2 can’t get through and the list goes on and on. It appears there is a complete inability to think logically!

[katilac]

39 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

This is Stella Immanuel's clinic, clearly advertising that they can and will give you HCQ for Covid. Doctors can't claim the government is preventing them from prescribing HCQ while simultaneously claiming to have cured hundreds of Covid patients with it.

The grammar on that ad . . . it burns. 

[livetoread]

My only quibble with what some have said (not necessarily here) about Immanuel is that she is mentally ill or nuts. I’m giving my opinion without spending time researching more facts about her, so bear with me here, but if she is primarily culturally from a part of Africa where supernatural explanations are common, then I would be careful assuming mental health issues. There can be beliefs held by subcultures even in the US that can sound like mental illness (and would be concerning if voiced by people not in that subculture) but aren’t. That doesn’t mean anyone should give those beliefs the time of day when sciencing, but it does seem culturally tone deaf to me to fail to recognize that some subcultures embrace supernatural explanations for things, and some subcultures are comfortable blurring the lines between science and the supernatural. Again, that doesn’t mean we should accept that, just acknowledge that it doesn’t mean she’s nuts.

[Skippy]

I haven't watched the video, so I have no idea about the validity of anything discussed on it or anything about the woman except that she is from Nigeria. The thing that really bothers me is the criticism that someone educated in Nigeria must be inferior to anyone educated in the US. The expressions of superiority make me cringe. More people in the U.S. should attempt to get more exposure to people from other countries. 

Edit to make more clear: I am not defending this particular individual, because I haven't researched anything that was said, but I cringed when I heard criticism based solely on being educated in Nigeria.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Skippy

[Moonhawk]

40 minutes ago, livetoread said:

My only quibble with what some have said (not necessarily here) about Immanuel is that she is mentally ill or nuts. I’m giving my opinion without spending time researching more facts about her, so bear with me here, but if she is primarily culturally from a part of Africa where supernatural explanations are common, then I would be careful assuming mental health issues. There can be beliefs held by subcultures even in the US that can sound like mental illness (and would be concerning if voiced by people not in that subculture) but aren’t. That doesn’t mean anyone should give those beliefs the time of day when sciencing, but it does seem culturally tone deaf to me to fail to recognize that some subcultures embrace supernatural explanations for things, and some subcultures are comfortable blurring the lines between science and the supernatural. Again, that doesn’t mean we should accept that, just acknowledge that it doesn’t mean she’s nuts.

I can see this to a point. But, this is not her saying "Demons are the reasons for your endometriosis. Here is [valid medical treatment] that will help you and also let's pray together."

It is tone deaf not to understand other cultures, but it is irresponsible to give credence to medical harm done by a doctor because they are originally from somewhere else.

Also, this is making a huge possible jump in assumption of the reason for her beliefs, which may be both insulting (to her and to her original culture) and stretching for the sake of argument, "grasping at straws" to try and scrap together some form of validation. I would like to see actual proof of the origin of her beliefs instead of this type of speculation. 

(eta as well, also believing in demons has zero to do with asserting that HCQ can cure coronavirus in 24 hours. All her medical beliefs can't be similarly explained away as culture or a misunderstanding between worlds. Not what you're doing, but over-generalization seems to be a thing on this thread.)

edit because I had a sentence fragment and to clarify how much slack this would even get her if true.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Moonhawk

[Fritz]

I normally lurk here but thought it might be helpful to have a couple of links. Dr. Immanual was not the only dcotor in that particular video nor is she the founder of the frontline doctors group. Dr. Simone Gold is the founder.

https://www.hospicepatients.org/white-paper-on-hcq-from-americasfrontlinedoctors-com-2020.2.pdf

https://thegoldopinion.com/bio

[Happy2BaMom]

1 hour ago, Skippy said:

I haven't watched the video, so I have no idea about the validity of anything discussed on it or anything about the woman except that she is from Nigeria. The thing that really bothers me is the criticism that someone educated in Nigeria must be inferior to anyone educated in the US. The expressions of superiority make me cringe. More people in the U.S. should attempt to get more exposure to people from other countries. 

Edit to make more clear: I am not defending this particular individual, because I haven't researched anything that was said, but I cringed when I heard criticism based solely on being educated in Nigeria.

 

What?

No one is making general comments about people "educated in Nigeria". This conversation is not about generalizations. It is about one specific individual, a doctor who is pushing a medical protocol with zero evidence and one that directly refutes several published studies and the FDA's current position. Weighing her medical education and background is wise, given that her status as a doctor is the only means by which she is currently trying to claim credibility. (Not to mention the fact that medical schools in Nigeria are NOT considered to be on par with the medical schools in the US, which is why we have many foreign students coming here to study.)

This has nothing to do with "being exposed to people from other countries". I'm sure there are fantastically educated people there. There are probably scores that could mop the floor with US students in a number of areas. This has no bearing on the topic at hand.

The amount of deflections in this thread is mind boggling.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Happy2BaMom

[Skippy]

27 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

No one is making general comments about people "educated in Nigeria".

Quote from another post: "One of the articles linked in this thread says that Dr. Immanuel received her medical education in Nigeria.  I try to research doctors as much as possible.  I know nothing about the quality of medical schools in Nigeria, but I would be very cautious about medical degrees from Nigeria after this episode, thanks to this lady.   (The princes have already made me very leery of the country.)" 

29 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I'm sure there are fantastically educated people there. There are probably scores that could mop the floor with US students in a number of areas. This has no bearing on the topic at hand.

I agree. This was my point. : )

[Skippy]

1 minute ago, square_25 said:

The point was that if this is the lower bound, one should perhaps worry about school quality there 😉

But I don’t think this has much to do with the main points here.

See, I just don't like that kind of generalization. I am fine if the discussion keeps to the facts of the arguments.