Halftime Hope Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 16 minutes ago, square_25 said: Yeah? And are you interested in my opinion and the opinion of other people on this thread? Because we may very well be just as qualified as these doctors. I'm also interested in everything that treats people. Suggesting that other people don't want to cure this is gross. But the way I express my interest in these things is by trying to find reliable sources, because otherwise we waste time pouring our energy into treatments that don't work. Do you now how many studies there are on HCQ? Do you know how much energy the medical system is putting into this drug? And after all that, it may very well not work!! Wouldn't it be sad if people were studying a drug that doesn't work instead of studying something that does? And wouldn't it be sad if the reason they were doing so was because of politically motivated and politically paid for stunts? Yes, I am interested in your opinion and that of others here. I come and engage here on this and other COVID related topics because I am sure to find a good range of perspectives on it. (I don't come here for medical information; the doctors on YouTube are much, much, much better at that than the discussions here are, because it's what they do! Gosh, I love a doc who is a good educator! ) If you are referring to me with your statement that I bolded up above, I am pretty sure I have said nothing of the sort, nor do I think anything of the sort. But I have actually experienced, personally, being told that there is no treatment for COVID, other than comfort care at home, until you are either better or so bad you go to the hospital. WTH? I do think that doctors are very, very afraid to try anything lest the wrath of the establishment come down on them. I also had a doctor tell me that he is able to try many more things and use his good clinical judgement because he is in independent practice. And finally, I personally know an intensivist (a critical care doc) who worked in NYC who kept trying to get his hospital to adjust their protocol, because they were not having any success with the ARDS protocols and people were dying. He has returned to my metro area and is working for two hospitals, and of course what he was saying is now known to be true. I don't believe anything nefarious on the part of the hospital, but they really should listen to their talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonhawk Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 46 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said: Maybe I'm a bit less stingey with the term than you are. As far as I'm concerned, any doctor who is treating patients in and out of their office, patients who can very well have COVID, is a front line human being. I consider pharmacists front liners, too. But that's just my perspective. I find it sad that so many of you are hell-bent on discrediting the doctors who put a lot on the line trying to give a different perspective, because the group-think is killing people and fear is hurting and killing people, too. I'm interested in hearing these doctors' perspectives, and seeing what I can learn from it. I'm interested in everything from around the world, in comparing the successes and failures of different approaches, in trying to discern what the data tells us about children and the risks and benefits of opening vs. closing schools, because the losses are so profound for most of the world's children compared to the privileged few who can be well-educated at home. I'm interested in everything that is working to treat patients early and late, from budesonide to ivermectin to a H-A-Z cocktail, to supplements, particularly if it is cheap and plentiful because that is good for everyone. I'm interested in case series, not just in RCT trials, because even though it's out of my power, I hate that having enough deaths to make results significant, means that many families are aching. I'd like to learn about folk medicines that are working too, if I knew where to find that info. I'm interested in hope, not in fear. I try not to double reply, but I put the finger on what's bothering me on this part. Someone who is on the front line is similarly said to be "in the trenches." This means that you are stuck there. You are the First Person that is going to get skewered if the enemy breaches the lines. There is no turning back, there is no relief, or the relief is far off. You are replaced, essentially, either when you are too wounded to fight or you die. Now we can quibble about how different armies have approached this in different time periods, but I think this is an accurate description of the connotations with "front lines." Now, you can be a good soldier, you can do your bit, and not be on the front lines. There is honor there. But there is a reason that the "front lines" are singled out to be described differently. Basically, there is a reason they chose that term to describe themselves in the first place!, they know the connotation I am talking about. These doctors, if you want to consider them part of the fighting force, okay. But front line of all the doctors? Are they in the trenches? Are they the ones who are doing the doctor equivalent of waking up every morning to the sound of mortar shells? When you think of an ER doctor in a hardhit area, and you turn on the TV to see these doctors call themselves front line, would you consider it an appropriate use of the term? I guess I'm a bit stingy, too. Anyway, I am not really aiming to change your mind or how you use the term, but wanted to put out "my opinion" since this is the most subjective part of the conversation. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said: He is a speaker/doctor/presenter who was invited to come from CA (?) to speak at a day-long educational conference/workshop; the organizers called it a "summit". They chose to have a press-conference at mid-day. Each of the people there had their own presentation and perspective. Again, his being part of a group doesn't make any one of them responsible for her belief system. Susan was an active, repeat participant in this series of homeschool conventions; she was part of a group of vendors and speakers who participated regularly. It's ludicrous that you would think that professional association would make someone responsible for one group member's beliefs. I mean really, how would anyone even know; how would it come up? Every time I consider joining a professional group, must I go do a background check on every member? That's ridiculous. How would it come up? Well, it should have come up to whoever thought of having her speak, because they should have had the good sense to spend ten seconds googling someone they planned to include in a press conference. Dr. Hamilton isn't just a regular member of the organization, he is a leader (school liaison). I'll concede that he still may not have know about Dr. Stella's particular bunch of crazy, but he has also not chosen to distance himself from it. I have been asked to comment on some of Dr. Stella's medical practices. While we are both members of America's Frontline Doctors, and both spoke at the press conference, we do not work together. And, to be clear, I myself do not believe that demonic ejaculate causes menstrual problems. Something. Anything. Nope, radio silence. I continue to disagree that two people being invited speakers at a homeschool conference is equivalent to two people being officially in an organization and giving a press conference together. Suffice to say, when SWB and Ken Hamm show up on the steps of the Supreme Court together, wearing matching blazers embroidered with America's Frontline Educators and give a joint press conference . . . well, then I'll worry. Edited August 2, 2020 by katilac left out a very important "not" 8 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 9 hours ago, Halftime Hope said: Ktgrok, have you never gone to something, been a part of something, and found out that while you are very committed to "The Thing", you find that you are very different from others who are also committed to The Thing? Come on. No reasonable person can be held accountable for another's belief system, any more than Susan could be held accountable for Ken Hamm's when both of them were invited guests at a homeschool convention. Apply your line of reasoning to her, and tell me with a straight face that you highly question her discernment and critical thinking. She was not part of a group wearing matching uniforms. I am fairly certain she would not agree to be part of a group organized by and including people espousing ideas publicly that were likely deadly. Had she accidentally agreed to be part of such a group I have no doubt she would have distanced herself publicly afterward rather than be associated with ideas that were likely to be harmful to public health. 9 hours ago, Halftime Hope said: Maybe I'm a bit less stingey with the term than you are. As far as I'm concerned, any doctor who is treating patients in and out of their office, patients who can very well have COVID, is a front line human being. I consider pharmacists front liners, too. But that's just my perspective. Well, even that definition rules out some of them. At least one doesn't even have a valid medical license - it expired and before that was some kind of provisional license for educational purposes. You say you want to listen to these doctors, and hear what they have to say. Would you listen to advice on geography from someone who believes in a flat earth and take it seriously? Not everyone's opinions have equal weight. We need to use critical thinking to determine who is and isn't a credible source. Again, this has nothing to do with whether HCQ works. But it does have to do with if HCQ is a miracle cure that works 100 percent of the time, and therefore no one needs a mask or to social distance, or worry about transmission via schools, etc. Those things are not true according to any evidence we have, from any credible source, and these people saying differently doesn't change that because they didn't present actual evidence and they are not credible sources. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, square_25 said: I mean, frankly, this board has contained the most reasonable COVID discussions I've read. There's a lot of expertise in this group, as well as common sense. It's a real cross-disciplinary collaboration 😉 . I am glad to hear you say that. Sometimes I think I rely on the board too much to sort things out. I get worn down here sometimes effort has to be spent on explaining why some of the most ridiculous ideas can’t possibly work or be true. Usually, my bs detector works for me but I don’t always know enough of the specifics to argue the point. So thanks to all the smart people here. Edited August 2, 2020 by Scarlett 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wathe Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Ktgrok said: She was not part of a group wearing matching uniforms. I am fairly certain she would not agree to be part of a group organized by and including people espousing ideas publicly that were likely deadly. Had she accidentally agreed to be part of such a group I have no doubt she would have distanced herself publicly afterward rather than be associated with ideas that were likely to be harmful to public health. Well, even that definition rules out some of them. At least one doesn't even have a valid medical license - it expired and before that was some kind of provisional license for educational purposes. You say you want to listen to these doctors, and hear what they have to say. Would you listen to advice on geography from someone who believes in a flat earth and take it seriously? Not everyone's opinions have equal weight. We need to use critical thinking to determine who is and isn't a credible source. Again, this has nothing to do with whether HCQ works. But it does have to do with if HCQ is a miracle cure that works 100 percent of the time, and therefore no one needs a mask or to social distance, or worry about transmission via schools, etc. Those things are not true according to any evidence we have, from any credible source, and these people saying differently doesn't change that because they didn't present actual evidence and they are not credible sources. To me, reading between the lines, it sounds like he graduated from medical school and participated in a residency program (hence the educational license - residents practice under supervision, with limited "educational" licences), but never progressed beyond that to independent practice. I wonder if he finished his residency. I don't have the google skills or the time to investigate this, but it fits the chronology. To be clear, this is conjecture on my part. But, it smells fishy for sure. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, square_25 said: Well, they have one member with very strange beliefs, one member that misrepresents her place of employment and level of expertise, and a bunch of members whose medical specialities don't seem to have anything to do with treating COVID. And their name is misleading, because they are in no way on the front lines. Can we PLEASE stop pretending that these doctors are a reasonable source? Come on, there are pro-HCQ studies out there, let's talk about those! I have criticisms of those studies, but at least then we can go back to talking about reality-based things. To me this is truly bizarre. Why is it that we should listen to these doctors who between them have sketchy credentials. no data, weird and completely unscientific beliefs, and have had had little to no actual experience treating people with Covid? How is it that these doctors know things that "they" don't want us to know? 11 hours ago, katilac said: Your healthcare plan or provider may work in a certain way, but that does not make sharing your diagnosis with someone on your healthcare team a HIPPA violation. If it were a HIPPA violation, they would not be able to do it for Medicare Part B, prior authorization, or other reasons. See HIPPA link in my prior post. I said that requiring a dx on a prescription is not some crazy new Covid thing (because you stated it was a HIPPA violation). It might be being used in a new way, I don't know enough about prescriptions and the history of various medicines to know, but requiring a dx on a prescription is not a new thing. This is true. I have had many different insurance companies over the years refuse to cover a certain prescribed medication, saying that first I must try this less expensive medicine. In order for them to say that, they need to know what the meds are being prescribed for, especially if it's something that has multiple uses. Every HiPAA form I've ever signed includes my insurance company on the list of those who can have access. Now, I can refuse to grant them access but if I do they can refuse to cover my doctor's visit and any prescriptions that come out of that doctor's office. Edited August 2, 2020 by Lady Florida. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 A statement was released by the doctor who talked about schools opening at this press conference basically distancing himself from other speakers. He may have some regrets. LOL. https://mailchi.mp/a26ffd8db917/a-message-from-dr-hamilton?e=fbd094b30c&fbclid=IwAR3FBITspPrNQv_fNyYa9Ml3DS8rq0r3CpfgtUpl5kLmLYnW8rjp5RVanX8 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wathe Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Halftime Hope said: Yes, I am interested in your opinion and that of others here. I come and engage here on this and other COVID related topics because I am sure to find a good range of perspectives on it. (I don't come here for medical information; the doctors on YouTube are much, much, much better at that than the discussions here are, because it's what they do! Gosh, I love a doc who is a good educator! ) If you are referring to me with your statement that I bolded up above, I am pretty sure I have said nothing of the sort, nor do I think anything of the sort. But I have actually experienced, personally, being told that there is no treatment for COVID, other than comfort care at home, until you are either better or so bad you go to the hospital. WTH? I do think that doctors are very, very afraid to try anything lest the wrath of the establishment come down on them. I also had a doctor tell me that he is able to try many more things and use his good clinical judgement because he is in independent practice. And finally, I personally know an intensivist (a critical care doc) who worked in NYC who kept trying to get his hospital to adjust their protocol, because they were not having any success with the ARDS protocols and people were dying. He has returned to my metro area and is working for two hospitals, and of course what he was saying is now known to be true. I don't believe anything nefarious on the part of the hospital, but they really should listen to their talent. Doctors are bound to practice withing the "standard of care". Doctors cannot willfully conduct personal experiments on individual patients. (They can be part of structured clinical trials, which will have been reviewed by ethics boards etc). Docs can't prescribe things just because they believe in them - there has to be evidence. To prevent the prescribing of literal and figurative snake oil. Of course medicine is as much art as science, evolves over time, and sometimes our best evidence is historical or traditional use of a particular therapy (and these types of therapies do fall out of use as new evidence becomes apparent) - it's definitely not perfect, but it's what we've got, and the profession strives to be evidence-based. Evidence-based medicine is the cornerstone of modern western medicine. At this point in time, HCQ is listed as "not recommended outside clinical trials" on every single current treatment protocol in my province - with the "not" in bold on the guideline - (and every single current institutional treatment protocol I've seen coming out of the USA too). The evidence is against it at this time. IME, prescribing HCQ for covid, at this time, is well outside current standard of care. If a patient who has been prescribed HCQ for covid has an HCQ complication (which will happen with certainty if HCQ is prescribed to large numbers of patients), the MD is in an indefensible position. ETA: there is room for clinical judgement in medical practice, of course, but decisions made on grounds of "clinical judgement" still have to be defensible. But I think, right now, the state of the evidence for HCQ is clearly against. Prescribing for covid at this time would be medicolegally risky. ETA again - limiting pracitise to what is accepted by "the establishment" is necessary. It's what lends credibility and trust within the profession. Edited August 2, 2020 by wathe 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said: A statement was released by the doctor who talked about schools opening at this press conference basically distancing himself from other speakers. He may have some regrets. LOL. https://mailchi.mp/a26ffd8db917/a-message-from-dr-hamilton?e=fbd094b30c&fbclid=IwAR3FBITspPrNQv_fNyYa9Ml3DS8rq0r3CpfgtUpl5kLmLYnW8rjp5RVanX8 Good. That makes two of the doctors that have distanced themselves to at least some extent from remarks made in the press conference (Hamilton and the guy from UCLA). I'm hoping some of them learned their lesson about jumping in the deep end without looking for rocks and crazy people. The AFD site only went up on July 16 and has very little information on it (a bit of a clue in itself) but what there is should have been enough to make one ask a few more questions. From the main page: American life has fallen casualty to a massive disinformation campaign. We can speculate on how this has happened, and why it has continued, but the purpose of the inaugural White Coat Summit is to empower Americans to stop living in fear. Bolding by me; this should have been a big clue that controversial things were going to be said, and you maybe might want to dig a little deeper before doing a joint press conference. Do your homework, people, don't be dazzled by the matching lab coats! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintinative Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 (edited) Didn't read the thread, but saw this shared on FB: Edited August 2, 2020 by cintinative 6 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 2 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said: A statement was released by the doctor who talked about schools opening at this press conference basically distancing himself from other speakers. He may have some regrets. LOL. https://mailchi.mp/a26ffd8db917/a-message-from-dr-hamilton?e=fbd094b30c&fbclid=IwAR3FBITspPrNQv_fNyYa9Ml3DS8rq0r3CpfgtUpl5kLmLYnW8rjp5RVanX8 Looks like he was getting a bad response from some of his patients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wathe Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 2 hours ago, cintinative said: Didn't read the thread, but saw this shared on FB: That is a very nice graphic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.