Is there just a lack of ability to see beyond self?

[Sneezyone]

36 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I didn't find Jones's comments offensive. I understood it as "no matter how you, as a white person, say you are not a racist - deep down you are". It makes me wonder how many black people really feel that way. May be not all the time, but at times. I know on here and in many social media places white people are asking "what can we do". Jones's comment makes me wonder if there is anything....

I also didn't realize that one of the police officers charged was Asian. I haven't seen anyone bringing that up, here or FB, etc. So, it wasn't strictly white cops vs a black man.

 

It's never been strictly white cops. It's the entire culture of policing that needs to change. You can look at the booking photos of those men and see that at least one (the one who asked to turn him on his side) is visibly gutted. That doesn't absolve him of the crime but I get the difficulty of trying to swim upstream in a toxic environment. I also understand wanting to bury your head in the sand and not hear any more negative talk, not read another negative story, not see another senseless death. This is NEW for some of you. This is LIFELONG for me. WELCOME TO MY WORLD. The most frustrating thing about this situation is watching people, again, who have the ability to withdraw do so with zero care or regard for the fact that others aren't nearly so able. Ignorance is a choice that some of us don't have.

WRT Van Jones, Most learned black and brown adults in my circle perceive him as imminently reasonable and moderate.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[SereneHome]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

It's never been strictly white cops. It's the entire culture of policing that needs to change. You can look at the booing photos of those me and see that at least one (the one who asked to turn him on his side) is visibly gutted. That doesn't absolve him of the crime but I get the difficulty of trying to swim upstream in a toxic environment. I also understand wanting to bury your head in the sand and not hear any more negative talk, not read another negative story, not see another senseless death. WELCOME TO MY WORLD. The most frustrating thing about this situation is watching people, again, who have the ability to withdraw do so with zero care or regard for the fact that others aren't nearly so able. Ignorance is a choice that some of us don't have.

I was going to type "I am sorry", but that just seemed lame.

 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, SereneHome said:

I was going to type "I am sorry", but that just seemed lame.

 

There's no need, seriously. Apologies aren't needed. WORK is. I just participated  in a conference call for military spouses on how to get engaged in politics. I'm excited about that. That's not for everyone, obv, but find something you CAN do. :)

[SereneHome]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

 

There's no need, seriously. Apologies aren't needed. WORK is. I just participated  in a conference call for military spouses on how to get engaged in politics. I'm excited about that. That's not for everyone, obv, but find something you CAN do. 🙂

Do you think politics is the only or best way to make permanent changes? I've always been very skeptical of that.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Do you think politics is the only or best way to make permanent changes? I've always been very skeptical of that.

 

I don't know. I've been a junky since high school after moving from SoCAL to AR. Talk about culture shock!! I just know that policy and advocacy work is and always has been something I'm passionate about so that's where I feel like I can contribute. The expression "get in where you fit in" applies here. There are some excellent proposals on the table. I also think there are some changes that can/should be made to the model statutes that most states use as their template WRT LEO crimes/violence. I think I can help there too.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Moonhawk]

37 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

also didn't realize that one of the police officers charged was Asian. I haven't seen anyone bringing that up, here or FB, etc. So, it wasn't strictly white cops vs a black man.

Thank you for pointing that out, I hadn't heard that at all.

If anything, this just highlights how systemic the problems are. 

As an aside, [In my limited experience*] Asians and light-skinned latinos and other minorities are often lumped into "white" or at least "not minority" when it is convenient to the narrative. Or perhaps just disregarded/forgotten. Not really sure which is worse. 

*Speaking as someone married to mixed-Asian, and who is half-Latina herself. 

[SereneHome]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I don't know. I've been a junky since high school after moving from SoCAL to AR. Talk about culture shock!! I just know that policy and advocacy work is and always has been something I'm passionate about so that's where I feel like I can contribute. The expression "get in where you fit in" applies here. 

I hope it's a good experience for you.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I hope it's a good experience for you.

 

I think it will be. My DH is leaving soon anyway so I'll be free to focus my time and attention on these sorts of things. My kids are getting older and more self-sufficient too. DS will be homeschooled but I plan to involve him as part of his civics education.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[SereneHome]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

 

I think it will be. My DH is leaving soon anyway so I'll be free to focus my time and attention on these sorts of things. My kids are getting older and more self-sufficient too. DS will be homeschooled but  plan to involve him as part of his civics education.

I would love to hear more as you get into it.

[Ottakee]

A few examples...  If someone is having a mental health episode, why do we call the police instead of some sort of mental health professional? Or say the issue is drugs.  Why do call the police instead of addiction specialists? 

This was from above.   I think that a huge part of the issue is funding.  Police officers work round the clock.   It is extremely hard to get mental health care of any sort, let alone emergency mental health care M-F 9-5.   There just isn't the training and funding and professionals do to this at 2am on  Sunday morning.

Likely there SHOULD be, but reality is, there isn't.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

A few examples...  If someone is having a mental health episode, why do we call the police instead of some sort of mental health professional? Or say the issue is drugs.  Why do call the police instead of addiction specialists? 

This was from above.   I think that a huge part of the issue is funding.  Police officers work round the clock.   It is extremely hard to get mental health care of any sort, let alone emergency mental health care M-F 9-5.   There just isn't the training and funding and professionals do to this at 2am on  Sunday morning.

Likely there SHOULD be, but reality is, there isn't.

 

The proposals on the table include diverting funds that are no longer needed for policing to these endeavors. Even as crime rates have fallen, expenditures on policing have increased significantly.

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I would love to hear more as you get into it.

 

Thanks. I'll be sure to share once I figure out how I can best assist.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[klmama]

5 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I think I saw that Minneapolis public schools have ended their contract with the police, and are planning on diverting those funds elsewhere.  Mental health resources would be a great use of some of those funds.  

Did you read what their plans are for handling violence in the schools?  (I assume that's the reason the police are there, since it's why they are in schools here.) Will they still have campus security guards to break up fights and confiscate weapons, etc?  

[Ausmumof3]

9 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I agree with this 100%.  I'm married to an LEO.  Of course, I think he's a wonderful man.  He's firmly on the side of the protesters on this one.  In his opinion, criminal conduct by LEO's hurts POC, and it hurts police.  Sensible reforms would help both groups.

Framing what's going on as a conflict between POC and the police, also ignores how the actions of our current administration are hurting police officers.   My husband has found it devastating to see how the administration forced park police officers to forcefully violate people's first amendment rights on Monday night, while lying about the purpose of the actions they were directed to take.  Can you imagine how Christian officers felt when they learned that they had been used to drive clergy from their church?  Can you imagine the heartbreaking choice between giving up the career that supports your family, or allowing yourself to be used in that way?  There is no way I can see the side that did that as pro police.  

We were talking about this last night when dh watched the video of the Australian photographer being assaulted.  Both the police officers involved have been stood down but you have to think that whoever gave an order to clear protestors without enough time to do it in a safe reasonable manner is at least partly responsible. 

[Corraleno]

 

1 minute ago, klmama said:

Did you read what their plans are for handling violence in the schools?  (I assume that's the reason the police are there, since it's why they are in schools here.) Will they still have campus security guards to break up fights and confiscate weapons, etc?  

The school board said they will present an alternate plan by August 18th, and they explicitly said that they plan to reallocate some of the $1.1 million cost of the MPD contract to better mental health resources.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, klmama said:

Did you read what their plans are for handling violence in the schools?  (I assume that's the reason the police are there, since it's why they are in schools here.) Will they still have campus security guards to break up fights and confiscate weapons, etc?  

 

So, prior to LEOs on campus what happened in schools? Graffitti? A lecture and paint. Detention. There were school security guards. If there was a situation they could't handle, they called in LEOs. Police shouldn't be in schools unless they are called, and even then it should be in extreme circumstances, not when 1st graders with emotional issues are tantruming. This issue goes beyond just deaths. We've seen preschoolers, in cuffs, carted off to jail while begging for mom.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Joker]

I’m honestly really happy to see so many places cut ties with local police forces. Maybe having so much control has played into their feelings of dominance. If that’s cut down, maybe it will help. They truly don’t need to have their hands in everything at the moment. They need to get back to basics first then maybe become a true part of the community again.

[Corraleno]

In addition to Minneapolis Public Schools, multiple cultural organizations (including the Walker Art Center) have announced they will no longer use off-duty MPD for security at events, University of Minnesota will no longer use MPD for security at large events, a law firm that has done pro bono work for MPD for years has cut ties, and the Minneapolis Park Police terminated their partnership, saying they will no longer provide back-up for MPD except in life-threatening situations and they are changing the Park Police uniforms to clearly distinguish them from MPD.

[Ausmumof3]

24 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Attorney General William Barr is the one who gave the order.  He has admitted it, and there's footage of him doing so.  He, and the President who presumably gave him the order, are responsible for the general situation.  However, the actual decision to assault the photographer was probably made by the specific officers. 

I’ve watched the footage a couple of times and at least one of the other officers there prevented the first one from attacking again by saying “he’s a photographer” or something similar.  So shout out to whoever that guy was for doing the right thing and making a better decision.

[Ausmumof3]

Just watched a thing with the police commissioner here.  There’s a protest organised for Saturday.  They organised an emergency directive to allow the protest to take place legally in spite of crowd size restrictions for Covid and they are going to be present handing out hand sanitiser and emphasising hygiene and social distancing measures.  

[sassenach]

I had a really fruitless conversation with my FIL today. It will be my last on this topic. I should have known that he would not be moveable. 

[LucyStoner]

I know that there are good people who are cops.     Just like I know there are good people who are telemarketers...it doesn’t mean that all telemarketers aren’t annoying dinner interrupters.  What they do is, by design, not all good.  

I also know that the way most police forces work reinforces white supremacy.  I have read, observed and learned that that often when cops that speak out against it are often targeted by other cops.   I know several former police officers who quit because of their personal concerns about racism and the militarization of police forces.

I’ve seen more than a few cops over more than a few years go from intimidation tactics to reasonable and kind once they realize that I am present or with my black family members. I’m sure that these individual cops are largely well regarded in their family and community.  I assume most of them even have good intentions.  But that doesn’t change that they are one way for me and another way for my family members.  That flipping of the switch and moreover the gaslighting about it (so many people are like HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WAS RACE) make me highly skeptical of the few bad apple theory of racist and disproportionate policing.  How do I know?  Well, let’s just say that it’s probably not the cops being overwhelmed by my pretty face.  I know it the same way I know grass is generally green.  Because I’ve seen it with my own eyes.   
 

#notallcops and #notallwhitepeople are both arguments used to deflect from the real issue at hand.  People don’t deserve to die and they don’t deserve to be blamed for their deaths and their deaths are more important than my or any other person’s feelings being hurt when the racism in policing and white people is called to light.  

Edited June 5, 2020 by LucyStoner

[Pam in CT]

8 hours ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

I don't understand the idea that Van Jones MUST say something helpful and inspiring. Can't he express anguish at injustice? At any time, isn't this the time that people could say something like "I hear your pain", rather than "I judge you for feeling this way"?  

Or even... ANGER. 

The verbal expression of anger is allowed.

To van Jones as surely as to @Sneezyone or me or anyone else on this board or in this country. He need not pull back to spare our feelings. 

 

OP, I think the limitation in the OP construct of 

Quote

Why must we ... steadfastly refuse to recognize good and evil exists in all colors and occupations? 

is that racism isn't a string of unconnected one-off encounters, with an "evil" individual here in this episode, and then another "evil" individual here in this next episode, and then another "evil" individual in the next one.

There are patterns, they are entrenched, they are codified, they are perpetuated to the next generation, they are enforced, with physical force and other forms of power.  

It's not reducible just to individuals. Recognizing that good and evil exist in all colors and occupations is not sufficient to address the structural issues; indeed insistence that every episode is a snowflake unrelated to any other episode will inevitably lead to an inability even to see the patterns.

ETA And societal inability/unwillingness to see the patterns guarantees those patterns will persist. Which means that continued insistence on individual good v evil as the only lens for looking at the issue sustains racism.

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Pam in CT

[Paige]

1 hour ago, Ottakee said:

A few examples...  If someone is having a mental health episode, why do we call the police instead of some sort of mental health professional? Or say the issue is drugs.  Why do call the police instead of addiction specialists? 

This was from above.   I think that a huge part of the issue is funding.  Police officers work round the clock.   It is extremely hard to get mental health care of any sort, let alone emergency mental health care M-F 9-5.   There just isn't the training and funding and professionals do to this at 2am on  Sunday morning.

Likely there SHOULD be, but reality is, there isn't.

Some cities have mental health mobile crisis units. These are people that can be called 24/7 for any mental health emergency or escalation instead of the police. Some cities fund these and make it a free service for all of their citizens. Others don't have the funds and you have to pay out of pocket or hope insurance covers it. Other cities don't have it at all. There is no police involvement with these cases and I have no stats, but I would bet whatever anyone wanted that outcomes are better for the people involved.

So these services can and would exist if more cities made having them a priority as other cities have. 

[LucyStoner]

8 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 

She did say, "God bless you!" at the end so that makes it more palatable. LOL. I can't believe that the repairman, when put on the spot, was willing to go on the record with his unvarnished opinion before her probing camera, sorry. He needs the business.

I thought the appliance repair man story was super cringey.  What’s he going to say?  No?  And risk the work or a shitty yelp review?  She put that man on the spot and is centering on her own feels and comfort.  
 

I noticed that The Help and other movies with white savior figures are showing up as most streamed content all of the sudden.  It’s very predictable.  

Edited June 5, 2020 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

15 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

 

Why must we ... steadfastly refuse to recognize good and evil exists in all colors and occupations? 

Quoting a quote here.  
 

No one is refusing to recognize that good and evil exist in all colors and occupations.  

My black brother, who I grew up being very close to and whom I love deeply is a remarkably shitty person who has done some pretty shitty things,  things that people would perhaps consider evil.  While I love him, I can’t trust him and he’s not safe to be around.  I haven’t spoken to him in years unless it was related to his kids and won’t unless he gets some help for his addictions.  Being anti-racist doesn’t mean that I think all black people are above reproach.  Any more than believing that white people help perpetuate racism means that I think all white people are irredeemable.   ETA:  Fundamentally, I think most people are good and have good intentions.  
 

I know full well that there are good and bad “in all colors and occupations”. It doesn’t mean I can’t expect better from a profession that is deeply entrenched in enforcing racism.  It’s just so much more complex than “there’s good and bad” and “both sides have valid points”.  

ETA-  I have worked my entire career in the non-profit sector.  There's a real issue with racism and bias issues in social services and charity.  At the same time, certainly most of the people who dedicate their lives to non-profits are well meaning with good intentions.  I can see very clearly that while the sector is full of good people, there are some highly problematic issues with the sector and also sometimes I know racism and misogyny go unchecked.  When I critique the sector (and I have so many critical things I can say!), I am not saying that everyone who works in non-profits is a bad person.  Also, plenty of bad things are done by people who are generally thought of as good people.  

Edited June 5, 2020 by LucyStoner

[Carol in Cal.]

12 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 

When you consign Van Jones, who is by most movement accounts, a raging moderate, to the loony pile I know there's a problem with your circle. Expand it. People are ANGRY. And anger makes people say things and lash out in ways that under normal circumstances they might temper. He used WORDS. And his words are just too much for delicate sensibilities. What you're hearing now is the uncensored version. The one that doesn't spare your feelings. The one that doesn't try to convert you. The one that has given up on you. It's not like white people have been standing up lo these last three years to condemn the WORDS AND DEEDS that have been hurled at minorities by the people in positions to ACT (unlike Jones). Get a grip already. You are not the victim here.  I know there are TONS of people here and elsewhere who may think I'm nuts (and racist) for openly saying that I do not trust white women. Situations like this are a direct example of why. When crap hits the fan, they rarely have the moral clarity to put what they THINK know about LEOs, as individuals OFF the clock, in a different bucket from what we also know, empirically, about SYSTEMS of maltreatment in which they actively participate.

If someone says something untrue about a group, that's wrong.  It needs to be called just that.  Just like claims that black men are not singled out by lots of LEO need to be called just that.  Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.  

[Carol in Cal.]

10 hours ago, rebcoola said:

It's heavy and hard and I often stuck in the middle.  The friends I grew up with are mostly POC they are hurting.  I know they are right to be hurting. They want to protect their loved ones and have a better life   I saw the difference in how they were treated.  I saw peoples attitude change when they saw a white girl.  

Now I live in an area with very few POC my white friends are well intentioned and but just don't get it.  Several are have LEO's in the family and feel attacked.  They think this is a bad cop problem.  They want to protect their loved ones.

I really don't know how to be that bridge.  

FWIW, and I don't know that this helps as much as I wish, I tell stories.

My company had optional virtual 'listening circles' this week, and I chose to attend one.  It was sickening but very good to hear Black men talk about their experiences with the police, and the long lasting effects that has had on their attitude toward them.  There were White men in the circle who literally had had no idea that every single professional Black man that they knew had probably been stopped unnecessarily for DWB multiple times, and had been pulled out of cars and slammed onto the hood or sat on a curb because they 'fit a description'--whether or not that was actually true.  They didn't know this because it was completely foreign to their own experience.  Those are stories that need to be told, and I think it's very good to tell them.

Sometimes people don't know what they don't know.

And sometimes when they know better they do something about it.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Carol in Cal.

[Carol in Cal.]

4 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Why should Jones be "censored" for referencing a real, widely-reported incident? Did the incident itself make you as mad as Jones' comments?  

 

Speaking for myself, yes, actually madder.  Both said things that were untrue, which fries me probably beyond what is reasonable, but in the Central Park incident that woman lied to cause great harm to someone.  Absolutely disgusting.

[Carol in Cal.]

54 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I thought the appliance repair man story was super cringey.  What’s he going to say?  No?  And risk the work or a shitty yelp review?  She put that man on the spot and is centering on her own feels and comfort.  
 

I noticed that The Help and other movies with white savior figures are showing up as most streamed content all of the sudden.  It’s very predictable.  

THAT MOVIE!

Even the book was not credible in its depiction of the white savior figure talking these women into risking their lives and those of their families to help her write a darned novel or article or whatever it was.  But the movie took that waaay further.  You had no sense of real danger in it.  It was ridiculous.

Having said that, I guess for some people looking for a gentle intro to discrimination for their kids or something, it would make sense that it's more popular now.

The book was well written and the movie was well done but so unrealistic that I kept flipping back and forth between enjoyment and being utterly unable to suspend disbelief/kind of ticked about them leaving it all so light.

[Shoeless]

  Quote

"It's not the racist white person who is in the Ku Klux Klan that we have to worry about. It's the white liberal Hillary Clinton supporter walking her dog in Central Park who would tell you right now, you know, people like that – 'oh, I don't see race, race is no big deal to me, I see us all as the same, I give to charities.'
But the minute she sees a black man who she does not respect or who she has a slight thought against, she weaponized race like she had been trained by the Aryan Nation.
A Klan member could not have been better trained to pick up the phone and tell the police, 'It's a black man, African-American man, come get him.' So even the most liberal, well-intentioned white person has a virus in his or her brain that can be activated at an instant."

 

I mean, he's not wrong. And there's not a single upper middle class white lady that I know who doesn't understand, deep down, that all they have to do is pick up the phone and say "There's a black man bothering me and I am afraid", and she will be protected and believed.  There's always someone who'll say "Oh, but *I* would never do that!  Not all white women!", and maybe that's true.  Maybe you, personally, would not make that threat.  But you could do it, and you'd probably never be called out for it, either.  

(*It's a general "You", not directed toward a specific person)

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

It's gone to court in Sydney to have the protest ruled illegal, given that we're on Stage 2 restrictions.

There's gonna be a stand-off in our house about it, sadly. Me paying a fine for ds does squat for social justice, and just makes me poorer.

Corona kicking off as a result of mass gatherings (which hopefully won't happen) doesn't contribute to police reform. 

We're not the US; we shouldn't be holding mass demonstrations right now.

 

Yep.  I can understand why.  I think given we have no active cases here and how passionate people are it makes for a better public image to allow it.  Police have asked the health lady for dispensation - I think they would much rather it go ahead in a legal way than be placed in a position where they are expected to break it up and end up looking like the bad guys who won’t let peaceful protests go ahead.  But I totally understand why it’s a different situation for NSW and VIC right now.

[Pawz4me]

5 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

FWIW, and I don't know that this helps as much as I wish, I tell stories.

My company had optional virtual 'listening circles' this week, and I chose to attend one.  It was sickening but very good to hear Black men talk about their experiences with the police, and the long lasting effects that has had on their attitude toward them.  There were White men in the circle who literally had had no idea that every single professional Black man that they knew had probably been stopped unnecessarily for DWB multiple times, and had been pulled out of cars and slammed onto the hood or sat on a curb because they 'fit a description'--whether or not that was actually true.  They didn't know this because it was completely foreign to their own experience.  Those are stories that need to be told, and I think it's very good to tell them.

Sometimes people don't know what they don't know.

And sometimes when they know better they do something about it.

Absolutely true.

But a reasonably self aware person should always consider -- be mentally/psychologically/temperamentally capable of considering -- that there might be things she doesn't know about any given issue or subject. And way too many people can't or won't do that.

It's kind of a Dunning-Kruger thing, in a way.

[BlsdMama]

9 hours ago, MissLemon said:

  Quote

"It's not the racist white person who is in the Ku Klux Klan that we have to worry about. It's the white liberal Hillary Clinton supporter walking her dog in Central Park who would tell you right now, you know, people like that – 'oh, I don't see race, race is no big deal to me, I see us all as the same, I give to charities.'
But the minute she sees a black man who she does not respect or who she has a slight thought against, she weaponized race like she had been trained by the Aryan Nation.
A Klan member could not have been better trained to pick up the phone and tell the police, 'It's a black man, African-American man, come get him.' So even the most liberal, well-intentioned white person has a virus in his or her brain that can be activated at an instant."

 

I mean, he's not wrong. And there's not a single upper middle class white lady that I know who doesn't understand, deep down, that all they have to do is pick up the phone and say "There's a black man bothering me and I am afraid", and she will be protected and believed.  There's always someone who'll say "Oh, but *I* would never do that!  Not all white women!", and maybe that's true.  Maybe you, personally, would not make that threat.  But you could do it, and you'd probably never be called out for it, either.  

(*It's a general "You", not directed toward a specific person)

This - absolutely this.  Which is why, when I posted something similar on my FB of over 450 friends and family, it saw a whopping 16 likes. Now normally I could care less who clicks the sniveling like button but this bothers me. 

I said, essentially, what happened to George Floyd could never, would never happen to me as a white woman. And, if you recognize that reality, then you must recognize white privilege. You must. To affirm the first and fail to admit the second is wrong. And until you recognize white elevation, you don’t see the need to elevate the importance of black lives. 
 

I have a young fiend, a friend of my 18yo who happens to be Chinese say it’s wrong to elevate any one race and she meant the BLM movement.  It’s not wrong if, by that elevation, two races stand on equal footing. 

I made a mental tally of who did or didn’t like that post of those close to me because that told me more than (apparently) 1,000 shallow conversations. And I’m angry because I didn’t know. 
 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by BlsdMama

[Pam in CT]

re we don't know what we don't know

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

Absolutely true.

But a reasonably self aware person should always consider -- be mentally/psychologically/temperamentally capable of considering -- that there might be things she doesn't know about any given issue or subject. And way too many people can't or won't do that.

It's kind of a Dunning-Kruger thing, in a way.

 

Fundamentally: the subject matter experts in what it is to walk around black in America are people who walk around black in America.

Just like any other experience. The people who best know the experience of enduring cancer treatment, or experiencing the stress of extended job loss, or of trying to navigate in a second language, or of suffering miscarriage, or raising a child with a serious disability, or any other difficult experience, are people who actually walk that walk.

Racism does not affect blacks and whites equally: therefore, we whites do not know it equally. We just don't. We are not equal participants in any "discussion." We do not have the depth of experience in the subject matter that people who walk around black have.

This is 1000x more true if we adhere to Colorblind Doctrine.  If we don't even notice race, only see the individual, then we certainly aren't seeing race-based patterns. The first time or two or ten that may well be a good faith omission.  If it's wielded as a shield, to block out unpleasantness or deny the relevance of the prior ten similar episodes or dismiss patterns of hiring/promotion/firing throughout a corporation or aggregate data from a given municipality or demographic outcomes... there's a point where steadfast insistence on Colorblind Doctrine crosses from uninformed omission, into willful denial that sustains racism. 

 

When we know better, we can do better. That's the good news.

[Liz CA]

On 6/4/2020 at 6:14 AM, BlsdMama said:

I honestly am just not handling this turmoil well.  I need some of my conservative friends and family to acknowledge the black community is sick and tired of this.  I need my more liberal friends and family to recognize that some cops are truly wonderful men and women who love the people they courageously serve.

Why must we CONSTANTLY take a side, slap on a label, tout a party line, and steadfastly refuse to recognize good and evil exists in all colors and occupations?  And I feel a little like a man with no country as I pray fervently for a friend's husband that just went on duty this morning with riots last night and I ache for others who seek justice.

Everything just feels SO heavy today.

 

Just thought about this yesterday. Discussions are not productive anymore. We sling mud on this board like politicians - and it's not just necessarily here. The inability to allow others to have a differing opinion from your own without getting nasty seems to be prevalent everywhere now. I have seen it in the CV19 threads and I am not even going into any Floyd threads.

I too find it an overall disturbing trend. 

[Skippy]

7 hours ago, StellaM said:

My timeline is full of people wanting 100% abolition.

They never seem to be able to suggest what replaces policing, nor do they recognise that the structures they find oppressive in policing will only be replicated in 'community meetings' or whatever else is vaguely proposed. 

Demilitarization isn't abolition. 

Nor is getting police out of schools (which I find incredibly shocking in the first place).

I don't have all the answers, but wouldn't a complete abolishing of police lead to much more vigilante "justice," like in the case of Ahmaud Arbery in Georgia? I could be wrong about this, but it seems like this would be even worse than the real problems that we are facing today. 

[Carrie12345]

16 hours ago, StellaM said:

Just gonna leave this non-sequitur here:

You can be white, anti-institutional racism, understand what your whiteness frees you from, at the same time  it burdens those who are not white, DO WHAT YOU ARE ABLE to address this,  and still not buy into the whole Robin di Angelo 'how to leverage white middle class women of a certain age into rolling around the floor in guilt posting about white privilege to each other on their social media at the cost of a zillion bucks' schtick. 

For example, what I am able to do right now is donate money to a fund to help the family of an indigenous teen, assaulted by cops, bring the cop to court. A year ago, what I was able to do was to hand out how-to-vote cards for an indigenous woman. The rest of it? Particularly the rolling around in guilt preaching to each other? Not here for it. At a certain point, you get that there is racism. You get that you don't experience racism. You get that you have a moral duty to do what you can about the racism in your local community.  And then you get on with doing that, rather than telling other white women that white women are evil. That's some black square bullshit.

I disagree with the basis of this argument, as a white woman with a white family receiving a lot of push back from white women (and men) arguing otherwise.

Dr. King did believe that white moderates were more dangerous than straight up self-proclaimed racists, and I see plenty of evidence of that decades later.

 

[BlsdMama]

Maybe I should have reframed....

As a white woman, I feel BETRAYED and ANGRY by people who put forth some type of mindset that they love justice and equality and intellectual thought and then tout a party line because it's easier and less painful than admitting complacency.

My sil, whom I like, but doesn't put on any pretense of deep thought, in response to blackout Tuesday, posted a blue square that said, "Blue Lives Matter," and I thought, "This is not about that.  Nothing about the recognition of what the black community deals with is about YOU right now.  It's about supporting people who are in PAIN and ANGRY."   not. about. you.  I get the tendency to want to make it about you - her husband is a prison guard, but now is not about that.

Then, my icing on the cake this AM, was a close friend, someone I love and respect, put up a post that said, "Why does this have to be about race? Why can't it be about a bad cop who killed a MAN?"  BECAUSE IT IS ALL ABOUT RACE - ALL ABOUT RACE!  And I really did let loose - it's about race because it's about RACE.  This NEVER would have happened to me - never, ever, freaking ever.   To which one of her other friends said, "Because everything must be blamed on the white man."  (Roll eyes - Please whine elsewhere about your hardship. To whom much is given, much is expected.)

And I feel betrayed and angry and FB allows for insight into what people really stand for and believe far beyond what we get from 100 coffee dates.  And I hate that I don't "trust" people I considered close friends because I didn't recognize that they were this damn short sighted and willing to tow the line.  I vote Republican, almost a straight ticket, with the exception of our current scenario.  I *am* the typical white, 40s, conservative voter (Hello, Karen) and even I, in my stereotypical, Midwest, Christian background, can recognize the only truth that matters - if he were a white female, he'd be alive today. I know precious few stories.  You know why? When I went to school? No kids with brown skin - private Catholic school with 58 kids in my class.  My family? Brown skin because they tan easily - I have two cousins (Guatamala and bi-racial) who are adopted and had a "white" upbringing.  On my FB page? I think I am friends with two black women -one of whom I am not close to and one of whom is a trusted friend that I've known for 18 years, but only online.  Two.  I should be the dead last person to recognize a damn thing about the black community and I suspect what I "know" is precious little.  But, we have some sort of idea that our singular experiences represent whole truths.  This is not so.  There are truths so far beyond your personal experience and the idea that the majority of humans can't comprehend, even the tiniest bit, or at the VERY LEAST, just SHUT UP AND LISTEN, is beyond me.

 

[BlsdMama]

14 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Have you seen this? 

Dear Evangelicals, You Must Know What You've Done to be Healed

The whole system is rotten to the core. The people with their heads in the sands do so because they refuse to see how rotten it is. Their ignorance is enabled by the rotten system that wants them to defend it. 

I've not and it's a powerful message of pain - thank you for sharing it.

Isn't anyone else wondering, "Where do we go from here?"  I hate to minimize it down to, "What do I do?" after thinking, "Ya'all need to realize it's not about you," but at some point in these discussions, we have to ask how do we exert influence in our circle? And can we?  This is a question I posed to my 18yo daughter.  I told her I hate this insight into people's heads - but at the same time, now we know where people truly stand... But what does that look like in the flesh?  Does that mean while I may love X and enjoy her company, I honestly can't have her sit here, have a cup of coffee, and enjoy frivolous talk because I just know it's a mask for an unwillingness to understand?

And moreso, there is a lack of ability to DO something in my scope.  I'm not great at being still but that is a large portion of my world now.... But I think we must understand the influence we hold, especially as homeschooling mothers.  Thus, we have to sort through what we teach our kids - blatant teaching.  I had mine watch the George Floyd video as wretched as it was.

[SoCal_Bear]

4 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

 Does that mean while I may love X and enjoy her company, I honestly can't have her sit here, have a cup of coffee, and enjoy frivolous talk because I just know it's a mask for an unwillingness to understand?
 

I believe that the only way forward is through relationship. We all have influence in our circles. That friend is your circle. No POC will ever have the power to influence your friend. Only you and other people in her circle have to power to influence. As a Christian, it is our calling to see that all of the people, whose views are abhorrent to us, are still people for whom Jesus died on the cross. There are imperfect, flawed people who are still worthy of God's love. That is the crux of being Christian that we are asked to love the unlovable. When I listened to Pastor Miles (linked in my previous post) talk about our tendency in all things to create in groups and out groups, it was convicting. It is really difficult to do the hard work of loving those we consider our out group. The only way that this friends (and those like her) will change is through relationship because through relationship you have the power to speak into someone's life. No one will listen unless and until they know you care. Pray intentionally and expectantly for opportunities to bring things up. No one likes being accused, but being able to gently and firmly talk in an appropriate time and place about what she said and how that made you feel and ask her to help you understand because you want to know what is in her heart because there is a disconnect for you in this and how you know her. Unfortunately, people say all sorts of thoughtless and careless things in social media and don't realize how those comments are perceived or received. Don't get me wrong, nothing about this is easy. It is all messy, dirty, heart breaking, soul wearying work to do this. 

I'm personally tired and weary as a POC (like nearly all POCs I know) of having the same, darned conversation over and over again. It feels like spitting in the wind. I have to hang on to the promise in Galatians 6:9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. I encourage you to not give up. We desperately need our white brothers and sisters to see the power that they had that we don't to influence circles that we can never hope to reach. What you can do is start to ask people to listen to people's stories. For example, I will share things that I find throught provoking and not say a word about my opinion about it before sharing and then have a conversation with friends asking them to tell me what they think. Then I listen carefully and ask questions to understand the what and why of what they are thinking. I try really hard to not say what I think until they are comfortable and know that I heard them. I try to approach it with something like, "Hey when you said XXX, I'm struggling with this because this is how I am hearing what you are saying. Can you help me understand if that is what you are trying to say." 

I thought a lot about jumping into this thread because talking about racism is just fraught with landmines, but God prompted me to speak up because you sound like you really want to have a conversation and want to do better because you know better. 

In His love,

CalBear

I'm going to copy here an excerpt from an email to two of my pastors who are white who asked me to openly continue to dialogue with them about this. Please understand this is somewhat off the top of my head thinking.

I was praying over this more today and thinking about white privilege. You can’t have a discussion about white privilege without addressing white guilt. This is where I think the bulk of white Christians are stuck. They acknowledge that injustices have occurred in the past. They agree that yes, they have benefitted from societal systems and structures, but they don’t see how they should be made to feel guilty because they didn’t create it and or intentionally perpetuate it. They did not feel that they should be made to feel guilty for just going about living their lives. They question whether or not they are supposed to take the blame for something they were not directly involved with creating and don’t agree with.

There are a few things I’ve  thinking along those lines.
1) Recognize where the guilt is coming from. It is a lie from Satan that distracts. Satan uses the specter of white guilt to paralyze you into inaction, silence and indirectly perpetuating injustice. The best way I can explain it is that I truly believe that Satan uses white guilt as spiritual bondage.

2) I don’t see what you see in my world. I don’t treat people unjustly. I’ve never experienced what you are talking about. Here, I think it is all about how and what you are praying about. If you don’t see, then consider whether or not God is challenging you to pray about opening your eyes to see, to seek out relationships with people who have share their stories and journey for whom this is a daily reality. Consider how intentionally you pray about carefully examining your own heart, biases or whether or not you are open to seeing, whether or not you are willing to be uncomfortable and uneasy. It would be easy to recognize racism in George Floyd’s death or the elevator story, it takes a lot more work to see the far more subtle daily racism that is so pervasive.

3) Consider whether or not the discomfort and unease of contemplating white guilt or the feelings of how that feels unjust and unfair to white people is a taste of what it feels to be a person of color who lives life daily being judged by their skin color and not by the content of their character.

4) I have friends or I have relatives who are Black, Latino, Asian, or Native American, there’s no way I have racial bias. The truth is we all have racial bias. People of color also have racial bias. Yes, it doesn’t get talked about as much but there is plenty of that sin going on among POC as well against other ethnic groups including whites. The entire human race suffers from being racist. I often get POC mad at me when I point out this inconvenient truth, but just because you are a POC, doesn’t me that you have a free pass. Yes, it is entirely possible to have wonderful deep relationships with POC and still have racial bias on board.

5) Consider that if you are not the powerless, then you have power. There is no in between.  Everyone has a circle of influence that God has placed you and only you in. That’s your power because with relationship comes influence. Change cannot ever happen outside of relationship. This is where the culture has bought into another lie of Satan that we can use institutions to change the hearts of man. The people of God know that change begins in hearts only through the radical transforming power of the Holy Spirit who can redeem what was meant for harm.

6) Recognize a white voice has extraordinary power in our culture. This is why silence hurts. POC recognize how powerful that voice is and how equally powerful silence is.

7) Reconsider how you are looking at George Floyd’s death. All of us agree that the officer kneeling on George’s neck committed a racist act that led to this man’s death. Have you considered the other three officers who are complicit through their silence and their inaction. Officer Chauvin’s sin led to the sin of the other officers and then look at how that sin multiplied into a tsunami of sin that have engulfed our entire nation.

8. I am afraid to say anything because when I have I have been criticized or silenced. So, I would flip this and consider what is God trying to teach you through this. Can Satan discourage you so easily in not persevering? Is God trying to teach you something through this? If what you said was not well received, then have you considered asking a POC you trust to help you understand why? Maybe before firing off your next comment on social media, use your POC friend as a sounding board to see if what you want to say actually conveys what is in your heart. Conversations around racism is fraught with landmines. Try to be humble enough to recognize that as a white person that you just might not know where all the landmines are and how you say something may be misconstrued or misinterpret

  

Edited June 5, 2020 by calbear

[WendyLady]

4 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

This - absolutely this.  Which is why, when I posted something similar on my FB of over 450 friends and family, it saw a whopping 16 likes. Now normally I could care less who clicks the sniveling like button but this bothers me. 

I said, essentially, what happened to George Floyd could never, would never happen to me as a white woman. And, if you recognize that reality, then you must recognize white privilege. You must. To affirm the first and fail to admit the second is wrong. And until you recognize white elevation, you don’t see the need to elevate the importance of black lives. 
 

I have a young fiend, a friend of my 18yo who happens to be Chinese say it’s wrong to elevate any one race and she meant the BLM movement.  It’s not wrong if, by that elevation, two races stand on equal footing. 

I made a mental tally of who did or didn’t like that post of those close to me because that told me more than (apparently) 1,000 shallow conversations. And I’m angry because I didn’t know. 
 

 

I'm not sure you should make a mental note of who likes or doesn't like your facebook post.  As I scroll my feed, I read things that are moving and heartbreaking and I am frozen. I am not sure if a "like" is appropriate if the story is sad, or if "sad" is not enough. Or maybe I should always say "angry", which is how I feel, but then perhaps just liking or showing anger is not enough, either, or worse it is patronizing or wallowing in my white guilt.  Everything feels fraught with extra meaning and frustration and confusion and more. 

Some I saw today: a young man's tik tok feed of rules from his mother about shopping - never put your hands in your pockets, always leave with a bag and receipt, even if it's just a pack of gum.  It is heartbreaking that going into a convenience store requires preplanning and rules.  I didn't know if I should like the post, because I did like reading it and was enlightened by reading it. Or if I should say "sad" because it really is sad to me that he (and his mother) live in this fear every day.  Or if I should say "angry" because I am angry that this is where we are today - I am angry and I need to do something.

or the article about the bird watcher who has had the police called on him so many times that he made "wanted" signs telling about himself and what he is doing (watching birds, in particular a hawk). I wanted to click "sad" because I am sad that what should be the safest and most wholesome naturalist activity is actually dangerous to this man. And then I felt angry for him.  

I can see that I am being ridiculous, but I don't think I'm alone in not knowing what to do. I don't know what to do in a larger sense of - what changes can I make in my home and community or country.  And in the smaller arena of the facebook post.  I don't want to be someone who does nothing, but I am currently frozen.

[prairiewindmomma]

2 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

Maybe I should have reframed....

As a white woman, I feel BETRAYED and ANGRY by people who put forth some type of mindset that they love justice and equality and intellectual thought and then tout a party line because it's easier and less painful than admitting complacency.

My sil, whom I like, but doesn't put on any pretense of deep thought, in response to blackout Tuesday, posted a blue square that said, "Blue Lives Matter," and I thought, "This is not about that.  Nothing about the recognition of what the black community deals with is about YOU right now.  It's about supporting people who are in PAIN and ANGRY."   not. about. you.  I get the tendency to want to make it about you - her husband is a prison guard, but now is not about that.

Then, my icing on the cake this AM, was a close friend, someone I love and respect, put up a post that said, "Why does this have to be about race? Why can't it be about a bad cop who killed a MAN?"  BECAUSE IT IS ALL ABOUT RACE - ALL ABOUT RACE!  And I really did let loose - it's about race because it's about RACE.  This NEVER would have happened to me - never, ever, freaking ever.   To which one of her other friends said, "Because everything must be blamed on the white man."  (Roll eyes - Please whine elsewhere about your hardship. To whom much is given, much is expected.)

And I feel betrayed and angry and FB allows for insight into what people really stand for and believe far beyond what we get from 100 coffee dates.  And I hate that I don't "trust" people I considered close friends because I didn't recognize that they were this damn short sighted and willing to tow the line.  I vote Republican, almost a straight ticket, with the exception of our current scenario.  I *am* the typical white, 40s, conservative voter (Hello, Karen) and even I, in my stereotypical, Midwest, Christian background, can recognize the only truth that matters - if he were a white female, he'd be alive today. I know precious few stories.  You know why? When I went to school? No kids with brown skin - private Catholic school with 58 kids in my class.  My family? Brown skin because they tan easily - I have two cousins (Guatamala and bi-racial) who are adopted and had a "white" upbringing.  On my FB page? I think I am friends with two black women -one of whom I am not close to and one of whom is a trusted friend that I've known for 18 years, but only online.  Two.  I should be the dead last person to recognize a damn thing about the black community and I suspect what I "know" is precious little.  But, we have some sort of idea that our singular experiences represent whole truths.  This is not so.  There are truths so far beyond your personal experience and the idea that the majority of humans can't comprehend, even the tiniest bit, or at the VERY LEAST, just SHUT UP AND LISTEN, is beyond me.

 

This. You've put words to the pain I've been feeling too. It's come up repeatedly for me in the last few years on a variety of topics (immigration, women, etc.) where I feel like people have shown me their true hearts. And they aren't loving their neighbor as they should as professing Christians...extended family, friends, etc.  I feel like I wake up a lot of days and don't know what has happened.  (I have always been pretty moderate, and the world has moved around me politically also. I'm now seen as being left, but when I look back in my journals, I'm pretty much the same me that I was 25-30 years ago and voting republican in the Midwest.) I'm having a lot of painful and awkward conversations where I am standing alone. I speak of love, empathy, and of the scriptures and I get shut down. Sometimes I am sad. Some days I am angry. Some days I feel betrayed. Some days I am scared.  I don't think this is white woman guilt wallowing.  I think this is confronting systemic injustices and realizing your friends and family don't want to leave their comfortable places and are willing to tell themselves and others lies about what is happening  so that they feel mentally ok about others suffering.

 

[SoCal_Bear]

This was pretty raw, transparent and honest post about some really raw, uncomfortable things she learned about herself. Gives me hope to see people telling their stories. 

https://not-your-average-mom.com/reflections-of-a-white-woman/?fbclid=IwAR3OaGm6UDsRB96uSzpqS2xw6qRCouo6sDvdkVL8hKfMblwPKSxyAo6Jg1g

[Sneezyone]

15 hours ago, MissLemon said:

  Quote

"It's not the racist white person who is in the Ku Klux Klan that we have to worry about. It's the white liberal Hillary Clinton supporter walking her dog in Central Park who would tell you right now, you know, people like that – 'oh, I don't see race, race is no big deal to me, I see us all as the same, I give to charities.'
But the minute she sees a black man who she does not respect or who she has a slight thought against, she weaponized race like she had been trained by the Aryan Nation.
A Klan member could not have been better trained to pick up the phone and tell the police, 'It's a black man, African-American man, come get him.' So even the most liberal, well-intentioned white person has a virus in his or her brain that can be activated at an instant."

 

I mean, he's not wrong. And there's not a single upper middle class white lady that I know who doesn't understand, deep down, that all they have to do is pick up the phone and say "There's a black man bothering me and I am afraid", and she will be protected and believed.  There's always someone who'll say "Oh, but *I* would never do that!  Not all white women!", and maybe that's true.  Maybe you, personally, would not make that threat.  But you could do it, and you'd probably never be called out for it, either.  

(*It's a general "You", not directed toward a specific person)

 

Do you remember Susan Smith? The woman who drowned her children and blamed it on a generic "black man"? That happened when I was in high school and I remember it so vividly, watching on TV as black men and boys were summarily rounded up and subjected to lineups for her inspection. My brother, at the time, was 15 or 16. That was 1994. It was one of many formative experiences for me. I have many touchstones like that around race that formed my opinions about others, not one-offs but patterns.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Shoeless]

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Do you remember Susan Smith? The woman who drowned her children and blamed it on a generic "black man"? That happened when I was in high school and I remember it so vividly, watching on TV as black men and boys were summarily rounded up and subjected to lineups for her inspection. My brother, at the time, was 15 or 16. That was 1994. It was one of many formative experiences for me. I have many touchstones like that around race that formed my opinions about others, not one-offs but patterns.

 

I'd forgotten about her until you mentioned her name, but yes, I remember now.  When the recent issue with Amy Cooper calling the cops on Christian Cooper came up, my mind went to Emmett Till.  There's been a long, long pattern of white women blaming black men to deflect attention from their own bad behavior.  

   

[Shoeless]

10 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, exactly. 

I think one of the reasons this dialogue feels *icky* to us (white women) is that it reveals our complicity in a white supremacist and patriarchal system. (Sorry, I don't use the right terminology here. I've never studied this.) The power of "white womanhood" is granted us by white men with the intention of promoting a patriarchal system. 

White women are tasked with enforcing the *rules,* so to speak, with regards to race, gender, and class. We've been socialized to do this since we were born. It's so second nature to us that most of us can't see it. And seeing it can be very painful because it causes us to see people we love in a different light. Why do white women side with white men over non-white women? The "white women can't be trusted to do the right thing" idea feels icky and painful because it's true. It reveals both our complicity and vulnerability. 

I've wondered if the white woman shame that we've seen expressed in the last few weeks is a kind of internalized misogyny even though it's appropriate that we feel shame. Are we (collectively) acting out of our internalized misogyny more than a genuine feeling of shame for our misdeeds? If so, it doesn't accomplish much. 

 

I've never studied this either, so I'm probably expressing myself in a clumsy way, but..

I don't know if I would call it misogyny, if we're talking about all the guilty posts from white women on facebook.  It just reads as a lot of virtue signaling to me. 

I see a lot of people trying to put as much distance as possible between themselves and the Amy Cooper's and bad cops of the world, and it comes across as a fear-based response.  Like "Oh, I'm one of the good guys! Don't direct your anger my way, you beautiful, noble black Americans! Because see I posted a black square on Tuesday and wrote a tearful post about how *I* need to do better".  But they aren't actually going to do anything, except emote at their friends on facebook and maybe get some gumbo from the black-owned food truck in town, (while posting a selfie of them buying the gumbo, of course). 

I could do with 100% less of that sort of "activism".

 

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

Straight up nonsense.

I can tell  you who I'd rather rode the train at night with my boy, and it's not a freaking self-proclaimed racist.

A straight-up wolf is easier to avoid than one in sheep's clothing.

As a woman rather than someone of color, think of it this way.  The drunken frat boy type or the insinuating creeper are people you know to stay away from.  You certainly wouldn't allow yourself to be lured into a room with them much less accept a ride home or something.   But then there are those 'nice guys' that claim to be all for women's equality and are polite and nice and then still cross lines without even realizing it (or they lie even to themselves).  "Yeah, she said no, but I thought she was into it."  The ones where the woman thinks afterwards if maybe she was partly to blame.  Those 'nice guys' can in some ways be more dangerous.

[ktgrok]

8 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

Maybe I should have reframed....

As a white woman, I feel BETRAYED and ANGRY by people who put forth some type of mindset that they love justice and equality and intellectual thought and then tout a party line because it's easier and less painful than admitting complacency.

My sil, whom I like, but doesn't put on any pretense of deep thought, in response to blackout Tuesday, posted a blue square that said, "Blue Lives Matter," and I thought, "This is not about that.  Nothing about the recognition of what the black community deals with is about YOU right now.  It's about supporting people who are in PAIN and ANGRY."   not. about. you.  I get the tendency to want to make it about you - her husband is a prison guard, but now is not about that.

Then, my icing on the cake this AM, was a close friend, someone I love and respect, put up a post that said, "Why does this have to be about race? Why can't it be about a bad cop who killed a MAN?"  BECAUSE IT IS ALL ABOUT RACE - ALL ABOUT RACE!  And I really did let loose - it's about race because it's about RACE.  This NEVER would have happened to me - never, ever, freaking ever.   To which one of her other friends said, "Because everything must be blamed on the white man."  (Roll eyes - Please whine elsewhere about your hardship. To whom much is given, much is expected.)

And I feel betrayed and angry and FB allows for insight into what people really stand for and believe far beyond what we get from 100 coffee dates.  And I hate that I don't "trust" people I considered close friends because I didn't recognize that they were this damn short sighted and willing to tow the line.  I vote Republican, almost a straight ticket, with the exception of our current scenario.  I *am* the typical white, 40s, conservative voter (Hello, Karen) and even I, in my stereotypical, Midwest, Christian background, can recognize the only truth that matters - if he were a white female, he'd be alive today. I know precious few stories.  You know why? When I went to school? No kids with brown skin - private Catholic school with 58 kids in my class.  My family? Brown skin because they tan easily - I have two cousins (Guatamala and bi-racial) who are adopted and had a "white" upbringing.  On my FB page? I think I am friends with two black women -one of whom I am not close to and one of whom is a trusted friend that I've known for 18 years, but only online.  Two.  I should be the dead last person to recognize a damn thing about the black community and I suspect what I "know" is precious little.  But, we have some sort of idea that our singular experiences represent whole truths.  This is not so.  There are truths so far beyond your personal experience and the idea that the majority of humans can't comprehend, even the tiniest bit, or at the VERY LEAST, just SHUT UP AND LISTEN, is beyond me.

 

Yes. I've been feeling this for a while now, over several things, and it is very upsetting, because what you thought was true about the world around you is no longer true. 

And when you add religion into the mix, it is heartbreaking. 

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

This depends on your circles.

And perhaps is more to do with a certain type of Christianity than it is to do with being female and white.

I hear none of the bolded in my circles. 

I don't know how it plays out. I know my best friend is getting all the "be nicer" "get along" crap from her family. Mine are ready to burn it down, lol. We are both white. But my parents were hippies and her mom is and always has been in abusive relationships, and puts a huge emphasis on "looking the part" rather than being genuine. 

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

If you feel like you must confront your friend, rather than ditch her, use questioning. She isn't gonna hear you if you heap a lecture in white privilege on her head. She just isn't. Is your goal to be righeous or be effective? Question, question, question. Get her, through your genuine interest in how she believes what she does, to reflect on her own thinking. 

 

Yes, with questions. The few times I've seen my communication change minds, it has always been via questions. Questions don't threaten people, and get them thinking. At the heart of it, questions require a person to get out of the "fight or flight" primitive part of their brain and use the higher thinking, logical part of the brain. I think that is why it works. 

[Ausmumof3]

Also re people changing I think it’s so rare for it to be a single light bulb moment.  More often than not it’s a cumulative thing. Whereas we often expect to instantly change someone.  So just because you don’t seem to have changed anything doesn’t mean you didn’t.  Also some people will stubbornly argue to the end but will go away and slightly change the way they actually act once afterwards.  Some people have a really hard time admitting they’re wrong (not excluding myself from that!)