Is there just a lack of ability to see beyond self?

[BlsdMama]

I honestly am just not handling this turmoil well.  I need some of my conservative friends and family to acknowledge the black community is sick and tired of this.  I need my more liberal friends and family to recognize that some cops are truly wonderful men and women who love the people they courageously serve.

Why must we CONSTANTLY take a side, slap on a label, tout a party line, and steadfastly refuse to recognize good and evil exists in all colors and occupations?  And I feel a little like a man with no country as I pray fervently for a friend's husband that just went on duty this morning with riots last night and I ache for others who seek justice.

Everything just feels SO heavy today.

[PrincessMommy]

19 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

I honestly am just not handling this turmoil well.  I need some of my conservative friends and family to acknowledge the black community is sick and tired of this.  I need my more liberal friends and family to recognize that some cops are truly wonderful men and women who love the people they courageously serve.

Why must we CONSTANTLY take a side, slap on a label, tout a party line, and steadfastly refuse to recognize good and evil exists in all colors and occupations?  And I feel a little like a man with no country as I pray fervently for a friend's husband that just went on duty this morning with riots last night and I ache for others who seek justice.

Everything just feels SO heavy today.

I agree...  You've said it beautifully.   I just don't understand why we have to put a line in the sand and say "Everyone on the other side of this line is not just wrong, but evil wrong."  Sigh.  

[Carrie12345]

It might be helpful to understand that there are extremely few people (I don’t personally know any) who deny the existence of good cops. They may, however, have a hard time communicating that when talking about the entire system and the need for all good cops to explicitly denounce evil actions. I know that I sometimes do.

[Pen]

37 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

It might be helpful to understand that there are extremely few people (I don’t personally know any) who deny the existence of good cops. They may, however, have a hard time communicating that when talking about the entire system and the need for all good cops to explicitly denounce evil actions. I know that I sometimes do.

 

The ACAB movement.  Graffiti on police cars, walls, other vehicles before burning them...  

I don’t know its history — it may be white supremacist? Taken up by others? Idk.  

 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Pen

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

 I need my more liberal friends and family to recognize that some cops are truly wonderful men and women who love the people they courageously serve.

 

You cannot be a good person and support disparate policing. FULL STOP. I have LEOs in my family too but they have vociferously spoken out, not only about criminal conduct by LEOs but also about the reforms they see are necessary within their departments and the field of policing in general. There can be no compromise WRT the need for reforms in policing in America. Good people will demonstrate that in word AND deed.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sneezyone

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

It might be helpful to understand that there are extremely few people (I don’t personally know any) who deny the existence of good cops. They may, however, have a hard time communicating that when talking about the entire system and the need for all good cops to explicitly denounce evil actions. I know that I sometimes do.

try Van Jones.  He made a statement a few days ago about how all white people have a virus in their brain that makes them racist.  the video of him saying that has been removed from youtube.  I saw it the day it was posted. I was appalled- he had the position to help calm things, and he threw gasoline on the fire.

[debinindy]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

It might be helpful to understand that there are extremely few people (I don’t personally know any) who deny the existence of good cops. They may, however, have a hard time communicating that when talking about the entire system and the need for all good cops to explicitly denounce evil actions. I know that I sometimes do.

 

Denouncing evil actions (and prosecuting)...YES

Defunding the police... NO

[Sneezyone]

30 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

try Van Jones.  He made a statement a few days ago about how all white people have a virus in their brain that makes them racist.  the video of him saying that has been removed from youtube.  I saw it the day it was posted. I was appalled- he had the position to help calm things, and he threw gasoline on the fire.

 

When you consign Van Jones, who is by most movement accounts, a raging moderate, to the loony pile I know there's a problem with your circle. Expand it. People are ANGRY. And anger makes people say things and lash out in ways that under normal circumstances they might temper. He used WORDS. And his words are just too much for delicate sensibilities. What you're hearing now is the uncensored version. The one that doesn't spare your feelings. The one that doesn't try to convert you. The one that has given up on you. It's not like white people have been standing up lo these last three years to condemn the WORDS AND DEEDS that have been hurled at minorities by the people in positions to ACT (unlike Jones). Get a grip already. You are not the victim here.  I know there are TONS of people here and elsewhere who may think I'm nuts (and racist) for openly saying that I do not trust white women. Situations like this are a direct example of why. When crap hits the fan, they rarely have the moral clarity to put what they THINK know about LEOs, as individuals OFF the clock, in a different bucket from what we also know, empirically, about SYSTEMS of maltreatment in which they actively participate.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sneezyone

[SoCal_Bear]

@BlsdMama

My heart hurts for you. I am also a Christian and a POC. It is a struggle. It is a struggle right now. The only thing that I can say as a Christian is that this is a spiritual battle. I am going to share a few things with you that I hope would help you and maybe be a resource that you can share with others. I am also going to share some things I have been posting about this. I really think we need to start seeing people and hearing their stories. What follows is going to be long though. What I hope that you can see is that the argument that there are sides and binary is not true. There is another way forward.

This is a pastor local to me who wrote a timely book called the Third Option: Hope for a Racially Divided Country about a year and a half ago. I greatly respect him and first heard him at youth ministry conference when I was a director of youth ministries for my church way back in the late 90s. 

https://www.amazon.com/Third-Option-Racially-Divided-Nation/dp/1501172190/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=third+option&qid=1591289271&sr=8-1

He preached this sermon on Sunday which was really inspiring, encouraging and helpful for all of us struggling right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjA4pZw3Bfg
 

I wrote this on my page:

I’ve been having conversations about white privilege lately with friends who geniunely want to understand what this means. This is a really well written article. I hope that you would be open to reading it.

It is a mistake to think that white privilege doesn’t exist. It does. It’s real. I think it is also a equally bad mistake to be prejudiced against white people for being born white and having that privilege. No one controls that. I don’t think should not heap guilt on people for being born white.

I think we should strive for understanding and to build relationships. We should try to listen with open hearts and not close our eyes and ears in the midst of the chaos and clamor. We should care and pray for one another and do better when we know better.

https://www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2017/09/08/my-white-friend-asked-me-on-facebook-to-explain-white-privilege-i-decided-to-be-honest/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=YTW_20200529&utm_content=YTW_20200529+CID_6120cd107123021c357c12f067485cf7&utm_source=CM&utm_term=My+White+Friend+Asked+Me+on+Facebook+to+Explain+White+Privilege+I+Decided+to+Be+Honest&fbclid=IwAR1V_nxikJ3w_IrZCbE2pKHimO7EJIB5qpalltUShalQO-_QAQ2I2CkCF68

I also shared this really thoughtful, honest and self-reflective piece about white privilege from the creator of Veggie Tales, Phil Vischer:

https://www.holypost.com/post/how-racial-injustice-has-benefited-me?fbclid=IwAR2vSbLTsYNAy_IiebqPoacyuzACns-miLd4i9WJkItLAny0zincjdYKqfo

From another post of mine:

Lots of people simply don't know where to begin and don't realize what they don't know or can't see. It starts with that first conversation to start on the path of learning and building relationships. Really, it is that simple.

 

For people who don't understand by silence hurts:

Who is My Neighbor?

A Discussion on Race in America

In lieu of our regular Neighborhood Night content, The Church at RB is beginning a dialogue to listen and learn from black members in our congregation. We want to use this time to lead with our ears and not our mouths as the whole country is leaning in to understand an injustice that began long ago and is real today. On Wednesday and Thursday of this week, we will share a two part conversation with Petrus Johnson, our Elder Chair, and Senior Pastor Jared Herd. We invite you to open your ears and hearts to listen as Petrus shares his experience.

Join us on Sunday morning as we continue the “Who is My Neighbor?” conversation with a panel discussion on race in America.

Watch Part 1 Now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50hhymXXRlE

Edited June 4, 2020 by calbear

[Sneezyone]

18 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

15th Amendment - 1870

19th Amendment - 1920

Each needs to exercise the right to vote, hard won that it was.

With freedom comes responsibility.   Jumping on a bandwagon does not remove the responsibility of a citizen to research and knowledgeably vote.

 

I noticed you forgot a few amendments and laws, maybe because the first few didn't work?

The 13th (1864)

14th (1868)

24th (1964)

CRA (1957, 1960, 1964)

and VRA (1965)

are noticeably absent. Perhaps more research is in order.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

I honestly am just not handling this turmoil well.  I need some of my conservative friends and family to acknowledge the black community is sick and tired of this.  I need my more liberal friends and family to recognize that some cops are truly wonderful men and women who love the people they courageously serve.

Why must we CONSTANTLY take a side, slap on a label, tout a party line, and steadfastly refuse to recognize good and evil exists in all colors and occupations?  And I feel a little like a man with no country as I pray fervently for a friend's husband that just went on duty this morning with riots last night and I ache for others who seek justice.

Everything just feels SO heavy today.

it does feel REALLY heavy. thankfully, I don't have anyone I'm interacting with on social media, etc who is that extreme. I don't know anyone who doesn't know there are good cops. But you don't start off talking about police brutatlity by saying, "not all cops" anymore than you start a conversation about COVID by saying, "not all viruses". To them, the not all cops is pretty much understood, so they move to the part about the ones who are the problem. Perhaps others you are interacting with are the same? And maybe the conservative ones get it, but are just plain scared? Hopefully?

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

It might be helpful to understand that there are extremely few people (I don’t personally know any) who deny the existence of good cops. 

Truth. 

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

The ACAB movement.  Graffiti on police cars, walls, other vehicles before burning them...  

I don’t know its history — it may be white supremacist? Taken up by others? Idk.  

 

 

Right, but those are the actions of the few, the loud minority. even though they get the most air time. 

17 minutes ago, calbear said:

@BlsdMama

My heart hurts for you. I am also a Christian and a POC. It is a struggle. It is a struggle right now. The only thing that I can say as a Christian is that this is a spiritual battle.

So true. I can feel that ugly pull toward hate, and that type of division does not come from God. 

9 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

15th Amendment - 1870

19th Amendment - 1920

Each needs to exercise the right to vote, hard won that it was.

With freedom comes responsibility.   Jumping on a bandwagon does not remove the responsibility of a citizen to research and knowledgeably vote.

Yes, but we cannot diminish the fact that the ability to vote, and the impact of that vote, is hugely impacted by voter supression, jerrymandering, the disparity in the criminal justice system that puts so many more black men in prison and takes away their voting ability, etc. It isn't just that simple. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

For your point, more research is indeed in order.

For my point, I made my point.  Nothing further needed.

And I will remind you that civil discourse does not include putting words in other people's mouths. If you want to make a different point than I did, create your own post instead of attempting to twist mine and announce me incompetent.

 

Your point was manifestly unclear given that you posted a wholly incomplete list of relevant voting rights amendments and statutes. Was your post intended to only encourage white women to vote? Is your definition of 'civil discourse' supposed to bind my tongue? Pshaw!

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, HeighHo said:

 

If you need to ask for clarification, please do so before casting stones. Again, that is part of civil discourse.

 

Lady, I have never been about being 'civil' to preserve your fee-fees. If you are able to clarify for others, feel free do so. I don't need it. It might just make your post look a lot less like a non-sequitur.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sneezyone

[rebcoola]

It's heavy and hard and I often stuck in the middle.  The friends I grew up with are mostly POC they are hurting.  I know they are right to be hurting. They want to protect their loved ones and have a better life   I saw the difference in how they were treated.  I saw peoples attitude change when they saw a white girl.  

Now I live in an area with very few POC my white friends are well intentioned and but just don't get it.  Several are have LEO's in the family and feel attacked.  They think this is a bad cop problem.  They want to protect their loved ones.

I really don't know how to be that bridge.  

[Corraleno]

43 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

15th Amendment - 1870

19th Amendment - 1920

Each needs to exercise the right to vote, hard won that it was.

With freedom comes responsibility.   Jumping on a bandwagon does not remove the responsibility of a citizen to research and knowledgeably vote.

I get that the first part of your point is that black men had the "right"  to vote (in theory if not in practice) before white women did, but I'm missing your larger point — White women are oppressed, too? If black people don't want to be oppressed, they need to vote more?  What am I missing? 

17 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

so true, and lets not forget that other subgroups have had their voting suppressed also.  I've got a ballot on my desk.  I'm not returning it because my vote isn't private and I know there will be retribution if I don't vote the 'right way'.  I am not alone in that, and I'm working elsewhere for change.

Are you saying that your right to vote, as a white woman in 2020, is being oppressed because some unnamed person or group will punish you for voting "wrong"? What would be "wrong" about your vote and where will the retribution come from?

Edited June 4, 2020 by Corraleno

[DoraBora]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

 

When you consign Van Jones, who is by most movement accounts, a raging moderate, to the loony pile I know there's a problem with your circle. Expand it. People are ANGRY. And anger makes people say things and lash out in ways that under normal circumstances they might temper. He used WORDS. And his words are just too much for delicate sensibilities. What you're hearing now is the uncensored version. The one that doesn't spare your feelings. The one that doesn't try to convert you. The one that has given up on you. It's not like white people have been standing up lo these last three years to condemn the WORDS AND DEEDS that have been hurled at minorities by the people in positions to ACT (unlike Jones). Get a grip already. You are not the victim here.  I know there are TONS of people here and elsewhere who may think I'm nuts (and racist) for openly saying that I do not trust white women. Situations like this are a direct example of why. When crap hits the fan, they rarely have the moral clarity to put what they THINK know about LEOs, as individuals OFF the clock, in a different bucket from what we also know, empirically, about SYSTEMS of maltreatment in which they actively participate.

She didn't consign Mr. Jones to the loony pile.  She said she was appalled that he would say something so divisive -- because he had an opportunity to bring calm to situations in which peaceful protestors and honorable police officers are being hurt.  Instead, he fanned the flames of hatred and bigotry.  

If white people have a virus in their brains that makes them racist, wouldn't it be true from a non-racist position that we ALL have such a virus?  I'm sure he was upset - understandably so - but he is wrong to paint all of us who are white with the same broad brush.

The irony...

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

If white people have a virus in their brains that makes them racist, wouldn't it be true from a non-racist position that we ALL have such a virus?  I'm sure he was upset - understandably so - but he is wrong to paint all of us who are white with the same broad brush.

The irony...

Maybe Van Jones assumed that most people understand what a "metaphor" is. Apparently he was wrong.

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

She didn't consign Mr. Jones to the loony pile.  She said she was appalled that he would say something so divisive -- because he had an opportunity to bring calm to situations in which peaceful protestors and honorable police officers are being hurt.  Instead, he fanned the flames of hatred and bigotry.  

If white people have a virus in their brains that makes them racist, wouldn't it be true from a non-racist position that we ALL have such a virus?  I'm sure he was upset - understandably so - but he is wrong to paint all of us who are white with the same broad brush.

The irony...

 

The appalling thing is that someone would crook their lips to complain and be offended by someone speaking their truth, NOT using profanity, in a way that makes them feel shame. A HIT DOG WILL HOLLER. Why is he wrong for holding up a mirror? This is who you are. This is what you do. It's ugly. LOOK. This is what is happening in YOUR name, to protect and serve you. Crime rates have fallen for the last 30 years and certainly didn't exist at the 1980s level during Reconstruction but it doesn't matter. The narrative is set. The same rhetoric is used. The die are cast. The policy choices and opinions you hold as a group are largely based on these assumptions. There's no irony in pointing out the deformation of character and conscience that racism has caused.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sneezyone

[DoraBora]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

Maybe Van Jones assumed that most people understand what a "metaphor" is. Apparently he was wrong.

I do understand that he is employing metaphor.  It's still directed at the people of one race, and it's still intended to diminish those people, as if there's no hope for them.  (White people just don't get it... they can't help it...  they have a sickness in their brains... etc.) 

[DoraBora]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

The appalling thing is that someone would crook their lips to complain and be offended by someone speaking their truth, NOT using profanity, in a way that makes them feel shame. A HIT DOG WILL HOLLER. Why is he wrong for holding up a mirror? This is who you are. This is what you do. It's ugly. LOOK. This is what is happening in YOUR name, to protect and serve you. Crime rates have fallen for the last 30 years and certainly didn't exist at this 1980s level during Reconstruction but it doesn't matter. The narrative is set. The same rhetoric is used. The die are cast. The policy choices and opinions you hold as a group are largely based on these assumptions. There's no irony in pointing out the deformation of character and conscience that racism has caused.

I think I see where you are coming from, though I'm not a huge fan of the "speaking their truth" thing.

[DoraBora]

OP, I think the answer to your title question is "Yes", at least in general terms. 

Fallen, sinful human nature.  All races.  No exceptions.

[debinindy]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

The appalling thing is that someone would crook their lips to complain and be offended by someone speaking their truth, NOT using profanity, in a way that makes them feel shame. A HIT DOG WILL HOLLER. Why is he wrong for holding up a mirror? This is who you are. This is what you do. It's ugly. LOOK. This is what is happening in YOUR name, to protect and serve you. Crime rates have fallen for the last 30 years and certainly didn't exist at this 1980s level during Reconstruction but it doesn't matter. The narrative is set. The same rhetoric is used. The die are cast. The policy choices and opinions you hold as a group are largely based on these assumptions. There's no irony in pointing out the deformation of character and conscience that racism has caused.

 

The same could be said about Candace Owens...although she did say b*llsh*t

[debinindy]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

all white people have a virus in their brain that makes them racist.

 

a metaphor perhaps...but gross nonetheless

[Sneezyone]

26 minutes ago, debinindy said:

 

The same could be said about Candace Owens...although she did say b*llsh*t

 

Yes, it could, and I would agree. Her mind is so warped by internalized racism that she's carved out and generated income based on the continued oppression of people who look like her. It's sick and twisted. Can you imagine being so damaged that you would seek to undermine legitimate protests of systemic brutality based on the nationality or background of the victim? ETA: I don't watch her, support her, or condone her effort to capitalize on white fragility. Someone shared her latest poo missive with me.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Corraleno]

Just now, debinindy said:

a metaphor perhaps...but gross nonetheless

The "virus" is cultural and it's real. If a white person's knee-jerk response to a black man who is angry about yet another murder of a black man by police is "how dare he insult white people," that pretty much illustrates his point.

[Sneezyone]

23 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Are you saying that your right to vote, as a white woman in 2020, is being oppressed because some unnamed person or group will punish you for voting "wrong"? What would be "wrong" about your vote and where will the retribution come from?

 

Shhhh!!...what are you saying! LOL. One less vote in the trash bin of history. LOL.

[DoraBora]

15 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The "virus" is cultural and it's real. If a white person's knee-jerk response to a black man who is angry about yet another murder of a black man by police is "how dare he insult white people," that pretty much illustrates his point.

Well, I don't know that her reaction was knee-jerk.  I think she was pointing out that what he said was incredibly unhelpful. 

Again, it's understandable that Van Jones is angry, but consigning all white folks to the "they're so sick they can't see the truth" category is wrong.  It's... racist.  (Imo, it was actually kind of a weird, stupid thing to say, but he was angry, and I can definitely understanding saying something stupid when you're mad. BTDT, got the t-shirt, etc.)

[DoraBora]

25 minutes ago, debinindy said:

 

The same could be said about Candace Owens...although she did say b*llsh*t

Yikes!  I've never heard of any of these people! 

[debinindy]

22 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The "virus" is cultural and it's real. If a white person's knee-jerk response to a black man who is angry about yet another murder of a black man by police is "how dare he insult white people," that pretty much illustrates his point.

 

That's quite an assumption.

This man's murder is gross (and many other things)

AND VJ's metaphor is gross.  Both are true.

Edited June 4, 2020 by debinindy
fix punctuation

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, DoraBora said:

Yikes!  I've never heard of any of these people! 

Please, spare yourself.

[PrincessMommy]

2 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

Yikes!  I've never heard of any of these people! 

me either.  

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, debinindy said:

 

That's quite an assumption.

This man's murder is gross (and many other things)

AND VJ metaphor is gross.  Both are true.

 

If people care enough to post about it online it has had an impact, a significant one, a memorable one. Does it make it better if, after considering evidence, commenting on Van Jones and not systemic inequity is the response? That seems worse in my mind. How many other comments about "8 Can't Wait" never made it into the poster's orbit? "Gross" is not knowing that "8 Can't Wait" even exists, or that other reforms have been proposed and are being advocated nationwide.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Ottakee]

5 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

I honestly am just not handling this turmoil well.  I need some of my conservative friends and family to acknowledge the black community is sick and tired of this.  I need my more liberal friends and family to recognize that some cops are truly wonderful men and women who love the people they courageously serve.

Why must we CONSTANTLY take a side, slap on a label, tout a party line, and steadfastly refuse to recognize good and evil exists in all colors and occupations?  And I feel a little like a man with no country as I pray fervently for a friend's husband that just went on duty this morning with riots last night and I ache for others who seek justice.

Everything just feels SO heavy today.

I have been listening to this audio book The Coddling of the American Mind  which was written 2 years ago.   I am not finished and I honestly can't say yet what I agree with and what I don't.....but they repeatedly make a point about how things (not just race but all sorts of things) are becoming an us vs. them issue.

This is a very timely book for our race issues now as well as the virus debates.   A book I would love to go through again and process very slowly and discuss with others.

I have black friends, some of which were stopped by police because of the color of their skin.  I have friends in law enforcement including one that just had their patrol car burned last week while they were on duty.  I have Native relatives that were removed from their parents and placed in Indian boarding schools to "civilize" them (and that was recent history).  

I, though 1/4 Native, easily pass for white so things are very different for me.   I want to learn and support.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 

When you consign Van Jones, who is by most movement accounts, a raging moderate, to the loony pile I know there's a problem with your circle.  

when did I consign him to a looney pile?  DoraBora is correct - I was pointing out he could have been helpful - but fanned the flames by throwing gasoline on a fire.

and frankly - they way you have repeatedly been making statements towards me and others sound like you don't actually want a conversation.  it's "agree with me or else".

I find it interesting he came back with a "Hillary supporters are the problem" and "they're worse than the KKK" and that wasn't censored. 

32 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

I do understand that he is employing metaphor.  It's still directed at the people of one race, and it's still intended to diminish those people, as if there's no hope for them.  (White people just don't get it... they can't help it...  they have a sickness in their brains... etc.) 

this.  he's decided the conversation is over.  he was censored for it, so it's not just me stating it was inappropriate.

 

42 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

She didn't consign Mr. Jones to the loony pile.  She said she was appalled that he would say something so divisive -- because he had an opportunity to bring calm to situations in which peaceful protestors and honorable police officers are being hurt.  Instead, he fanned the flames of hatred and bigotry.  

If white people have a virus in their brains that makes them racist, wouldn't it be true from a non-racist position that we ALL have such a virus?  I'm sure he was upset - understandably so - but he is wrong to paint all of us who are white with the same broad brush.

The irony...

this.

[Carrie12345]

I would like to point out that when I say “extremely few people”, naming extremely few people does not alter reality.  Anyone who allows themselves to believe they represent the majority should examine their thought process, sources, the people they associate with.

[Corraleno]

19 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I haven't heard or read the actual comment in its original context, but as a white woman who considers herself a decent ally of POC, I think an asymptomatic virus is a powerful metaphor for racism.  

Here is the context of the comment. Of course every conservative news outlet has headlined this as "Van Jones says all white people are racists!" I thought the metaphor of a virus "that can be activated at any second" in reponse to perceived threat, no matter how unwarranted, was accurate, and a really insightful way of framing issues like the woman who called police on a black man who merely asked her to leash her dog. That woman voted for Clinton and Obama and certainly would not have considered herself a racist, but the minute her comfort and convenience were in any way imposed upon by a black man, she played the race card.

His whole point was that white people who would never consider themselves racist still respond in culturally-conditioned racist ways. But instead of thinking about what he actually said, and why he said it, the immediate response from too many white people is OMG, how insulting, "not all white people" are racists!
 

Quote

"It's not the racist white person who is in the Ku Klux Klan that we have to worry about. It's the white liberal Hillary Clinton supporter walking her dog in Central Park who would tell you right now, you know, people like that – 'oh, I don't see race, race is no big deal to me, I see us all as the same, I give to charities.'
But the minute she sees a black man who she does not respect or who she has a slight thought against, she weaponized race like she had been trained by the Aryan Nation.
A Klan member could not have been better trained to pick up the phone and tell the police, 'It's a black man, African-American man, come get him.' So even the most liberal, well-intentioned white person has a virus in his or her brain that can be activated at an instant."

Edited June 4, 2020 by Corraleno

[Sneezyone]

30 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

when did I consign him to a looney pile?  DoraBora is correct - I was pointing out he could have been helpful - but fanned the flames by throwing gasoline on a fire.

and frankly - they way you have repeatedly been making statements towards me and others sound like you don't actually want a conversation.  it's "agree with me or else".

I find it interesting he came back with a "Hillary supporters are the problem" and "they're worse than the KKK" and that wasn't censored. 

this.  he's decided the conversation is over.  he was censored for it, so it's not just me stating it was inappropriate.

 

this.

 

1) You pointed out his comment as if it was an uncommon opinion. It is not. It is largely mainstream among the HIGHLY educated black people in my circles.

2) I don't expect or require people to agree with me. I'm saying that you cannot expect the INCREASING majority Americans to agree with you either (Chickens ------->Roost) and that you may, actually, be on a circle jerk island and not even know it.

3) I have said in multiple threads that there are people on the political right AND left who fan racist flames and hold these views. Not here, but on the politics board, people know I have long espoused the idea that US politics are a circle and not a continuum. The far left and right are very similar.

4) He decided the conversation was over b/c, as Patrick Swayze said, "YOU'RE NOT WORTH IT!" Not because he didn't mean it or think it was inappropriate. ETA: Any social media platform that continues to allow the PTB to lie unchecked is in no position to be an arbiter of what content is 'inappropriate'.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, calbear said:

@BlsdMama

My heart hurts for you. I am also a Christian and a POC. It is a struggle. It is a struggle right now. The only thing that I can say as a Christian is that this is a spiritual battle. I am going to share a few things with you that I hope would help you and maybe be a resource that you can share with others. I am also going to share some things I have been posting about this. I really think we need to start seeing people and hearing their stories. What follows is going to be long though. What I hope that you can see is that the argument that there are sides and binary is not true. There is another way forward.

This is a pastor local to me who wrote a timely book called the Third Option: Hope for a Racially Divided Country about a year and a half ago. I greatly respect him and first heard him at youth ministry conference when I was a director of youth ministries for my church way back in the late 90s. 

https://www.amazon.com/Third-Option-Racially-Divided-Nation/dp/1501172190/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=third+option&qid=1591289271&sr=8-1

He preached this sermon on Sunday which was really inspiring, encouraging and helpful for all of us struggling right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjA4pZw3Bfg
 

I wrote this on my page:

I’ve been having conversations about white privilege lately with friends who geniunely want to understand what this means. This is a really well written article. I hope that you would be open to reading it.

It is a mistake to think that white privilege doesn’t exist. It does. It’s real. I think it is also a equally bad mistake to be prejudiced against white people for being born white and having that privilege. No one controls that. I don’t think should not heap guilt on people for being born white.

I think we should strive for understanding and to build relationships. We should try to listen with open hearts and not close our eyes and ears in the midst of the chaos and clamor. We should care and pray for one another and do better when we know better.

https://www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2017/09/08/my-white-friend-asked-me-on-facebook-to-explain-white-privilege-i-decided-to-be-honest/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=YTW_20200529&utm_content=YTW_20200529+CID_6120cd107123021c357c12f067485cf7&utm_source=CM&utm_term=My+White+Friend+Asked+Me+on+Facebook+to+Explain+White+Privilege+I+Decided+to+Be+Honest&fbclid=IwAR1V_nxikJ3w_IrZCbE2pKHimO7EJIB5qpalltUShalQO-_QAQ2I2CkCF68

I also shared this really thoughtful, honest and self-reflective piece about white privilege from the creator of Veggie Tales, Phil Vischer:

https://www.holypost.com/post/how-racial-injustice-has-benefited-me?fbclid=IwAR2vSbLTsYNAy_IiebqPoacyuzACns-miLd4i9WJkItLAny0zincjdYKqfo

From another post of mine:

Lots of people simply don't know where to begin and don't realize what they don't know or can't see. It starts with that first conversation to start on the path of learning and building relationships. Really, it is that simple.

 

For people who don't understand by silence hurts:

Who is My Neighbor?

A Discussion on Race in America

In lieu of our regular Neighborhood Night content, The Church at RB is beginning a dialogue to listen and learn from black members in our congregation. We want to use this time to lead with our ears and not our mouths as the whole country is leaning in to understand an injustice that began long ago and is real today. On Wednesday and Thursday of this week, we will share a two part conversation with Petrus Johnson, our Elder Chair, and Senior Pastor Jared Herd. We invite you to open your ears and hearts to listen as Petrus shares his experience.

Join us on Sunday morning as we continue the “Who is My Neighbor?” conversation with a panel discussion on race in America.

Watch Part 1 Now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50hhymXXRlE

 

She did say, "God bless you!" at the end so that makes it more palatable. LOL. I can't believe that the repairman, when put on the spot, was willing to go on the record with his unvarnished opinion before her probing camera, sorry. He needs the business.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sneezyone

[YaelAldrich]

Van Jones' virus analogy is actually a KINDNESS to White people, because the other option is that White people are just plain old evil and there may be no chance of redemption.  Which for many I am inclined to think is the case.

[SanDiegoMom]

I don't understand the idea that Van Jones MUST say something helpful and inspiring. Can't he express anguish at injustice? At any time, isn't this the time that people could say something like "I hear your pain", rather than "I judge you for feeling this way"?  

[Sneezyone]

If you were here complaining about Van Jones and missed the Rev. Sharpton's eulogy for Mr. Floyd...well...ok.

ETA: This is what this is all about. Don't get it twisted. Don't be distracted. Don't fall for the 'squirrel' head fake. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ahmaud-arbery-hearing-racial-slur_n_5ed9105bc5b6fa6824c6cf85.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Corraleno]

On the off chance that anyone here doesn't know the context of Jones's reference to "liberal white women who voted for Clinton," the story is below. Basically, a black man who was bird watching in Central Park asked a white woman to please leash her dog, which is required in that part of the park. She not only refused, she told him she was going to call the police "and tell them that an African American man is threatening my life." She then called the police and told them her life was being threatened and even added some fake hysteria to her voice for extra realism, screaming "please send the cops immediately!!!"  

What would have happened to him if he didn't have that video? What would have happened to him if he was a young black man in a hoody instead of a well-dressed, middle-aged, Harvard-educated black man with binoculars around his neck? What would have happened to him if different cops had been sent, instead of the ones who looked at his video and left? That's why Jones said it's not just the KKK they need to fear, because there are plenty of I-am-not-a-racists who will weaponize their privilege "in an instant" when it benefits them.

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/26/862230724/white-woman-who-called-police-on-black-bird-watcher-in-central-park-placed-on-le

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Here is the context of the comment. Of course every conservative news outlet has headlined this as "Van Jones says all white people are racists!" I thought the metaphor of a virus "that can be activated at any second" in reponse to perceived threat, no matter how unwarranted, was accurate, and a really insightful way of framing issues like the woman who called police on a black man who merely asked her to leash her dog. That woman voted for Clinton and Obama and certainly would not have considered herself a racist, but the minute her comfort and convenience were in any way imposed upon by a black man, she played the race card.

His whole point was that white people who would never consider themselves racist still respond in culturally-conditioned racist ways. But instead of thinking about what he actually said, and why he said it, the immediate response from too many white people is OMG, how insulting, "not all white people" are racists!
 

Thank you for the context. 
 

That was helpful in interpreting this mans comment.

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Just gonna leave this non-sequitur here:

You can be white, anti-institutional racism, understand what your whiteness frees you from, at the same time  it burdens those who are not white, DO WHAT YOU ARE ABLE to address this,  and still not buy into the whole Robin di Angelo 'how to leverage white middle class women of a certain age into rolling around the floor in guilt posting about white privilege to each other on their social media at the cost of a zillion bucks' schtick. 

For example, what I am able to do right now is donate money to a fund to help the family of an indigenous teen, assaulted by cops, bring the cop to court. A year ago, what I was able to do was to hand out how-to-vote cards for an indigenous woman. The rest of it? Particularly the rolling around in guilt preaching to each other? Not here for it. At a certain point, you get that there is racism. You get that you don't experience racism. You get that you have a moral duty to do what you can about the racism in your local community.  And then you get on with doing that, rather than telling other white women that white women are evil. That's some black square bullshit.

 

HA! We agree. It's not the ok, I'm trying to do SOMETHING however marginal it might be, that bothers me.  It's the denial, squirrel chasing, and moral equivalency that sets me on fire...every flipping time. We DO have a problem here, more pronounced than it is in AUS. There are no two sides WRT whether or not I am FULLY human. I don't have to soften my tone, or placate people, or provide umpty-million caveats to make that true. It's just not up for debate

[happi duck]

I think people are traumatized.  "Sick and tired" is an understatement to say the least.

There aren't sides, there just aren't.  Our world needs to stop diverting attention from the gross injustices that exist.  

People want to be comfortable.  Remember when people didn't care about covid because it's just "old people"?  Imo, assuming someone killed by police "deserved" it or assuming most cops are good apples is just more attempts at feeling comfortable.

We can't be comfortable with injustice.  We just can't.

[KungFuPanda]

7 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

It might be helpful to understand that there are extremely few people (I don’t personally know any) who deny the existence of good cops. They may, however, have a hard time communicating that when talking about the entire system and the need for all good cops to explicitly denounce evil actions. I know that I sometimes do.

I feel you. My FB feed has conservatives posting that fake-ass Bible-as-prop photo and liberals sharing that photo-shopped hitler photo. I’ve hit saturation. 

[DoraBora]

4 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I haven't heard or read the actual comment in its original context, but as a white woman who considers herself a decent ally of POC, I think an asymptomatic virus is a powerful metaphor for racism.  

One of the things about the virus, is that it makes ordinary actions, things that we do without thinking, like singing or standing close to someone, or scratching our nose, potentially dangerous.  And that danger is disproportionate, with some groups in society, such as people with medical disabilities experiencing far more danger than other groups.  I don't think that someone who forgets the new rules, and wipes their hair out of their eyes, or shakes someone's hand without thinking is "an ableist".  I don't think they're thinking "oooh, I don't care about CMom3's son", but their actions still contribute to the current of ableism in our society that denies my kid full participation in society by making it unsafe for him to leave our home.  Because I believe that someone can be a good person, a well meaning person who shares my values, and still act in ways that put my child in jeopardy, I support the idea of educating society as a whole about the virus, rather than focusing on judging individuals.  I also support the idea of establishing new norms of behavior, whether that's waving instead of shaking hands when we pass the peace at church, or wearing masks, or having instrumental music instead of singing in certain situations. 

For a white person, who grew up in a relatively segregated place, like most of us do, we also have habits and behaviors that we think of as ordinary that have the potential to disproportionately impact POC.   So, for example, I might choose to shop at certain places, because I go to church with their owner, or because the owner's kids go to my kids' school, or because they live close to me, and, because I'm living in a segregated place, inadvertently end up spending a large portion of my income at business that are owned by white people. This doesn't make me a racist, but if I continue the practice, and don't examine the implications of my choices, my behavior leads to continuing racial disparities in my community.  So, just like I support education about the virus, and new habits to diminish its impact, I support education about racism, and new habits to diminish its impact.  

Sorry, if this makes no sense, I'm very sleepy.  

 

It makes sense.  Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful explantion.  You've given me something to chew on.  

[Corraleno]

4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I find it interesting he came back with a "Hillary supporters are the problem" and "they're worse than the KKK" and that wasn't censored. 

Why should Jones be "censored" for referencing a real, widely-reported incident? Did the incident itself make you as mad as Jones' comments?  

"I find it interesting" that of all the possible links you could have provided, you chose an extreme right-wing conspiracy youtuber who states that "the real enemy are all Democrats, all the time" and repeats the phrase "demon rat Democrat" dozens of times. The divisiveness and "gasoline on the fire" did not come from Van Jones, it came from news outlets and social media that intentionally mischaracterized his comments to gin up white outrage at a black man speaking uncomfortable truths. The fact that you think what Jones said is divisive and inflammatory, but the things being said in the video that you linked are not, is exactly what Jones is talking about.

[HeartString]

3 hours ago, StellaM said:

Something that worries me a lot, however, is that some people advocate police abolition, rather than reform. Honestly, that bothers me more than burning a  police car. Burning the entire concept of a police force? Scary.

 

I have been reading more about this today and it's more complicated than just #defundthepolice.  The idea as  I am understanding it is to take SOME or PART of the money that gets spent on police departments and spend that on community programs instead.  I'm finding it really a thought provoking idea.  It's making me question some basic assumptions and norms that we have around policing.   The police are the go to place for pretty much any problem that we have, but is that the way that it should be?  Is that the only way it can be? 

A few examples...  If someone is having a mental health episode, why do we call the police instead of some sort of mental health professional? Or say the issue is drugs.  Why do call the police instead of addiction specialists? 

I don't understand the idea of defunding the police as just getting rid of law enforcement altogether, but putting policing within boundaries.  Taking all of the extra duties out of the purview of the police department would free the police up to focus on their main task, and it would also mean we needed less of them. 

I'm pretty sure a large part of the desire for this comes from the militarization of the police.  Does every police department really need a couple of tanks and full riot gear?  Can't we just let that fall under the purview of the national guard and use the money that goes to the fancy military grade toys go into something more useful for the community.  How many slots in an after school program be paid for with the money that paid for that tank? 

(I know some groups are advocating for a full defunding, but I figure its best not to let extreme voices rule conversations)

This is a decent explainer.

https://www.newsweek.com/defund-police-movement-growing-heres-what-it-actually-means-1508761

[SereneHome]

I didn't find Jones's comments offensive. I understood it as "no matter how you, as a white person, say you are not a racist - deep down you are". It makes me wonder how many black people really feel that way. May be not all the time, but at times. I know on here and in many social media places white people are asking "what can we do". Jones's comment makes me wonder if there is anything....

I also didn't realize that one of the police officers charged was Asian. I haven't seen anyone bringing that up, here or FB, etc. So, it wasn't strictly white cops vs a black man.