Another large homeschool family in the news

[Frances]

Another large homeschool family in the news for alleged abuse and neglect of their children.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/05/14/torture-occurred-in-this-house-parents-charged-after-police-find-10-children-living-in-feces-garbage/

 

[Mergath]

I'm horrified at how many homeschoolers (over on FB) have been defending this family, saying that it's not that bad and that CPS is overreacting. 

The dad torturing the kids and a house full of poop and rotting food isn't that bad? 

[Frances]

I was very confused by the mom’s statement that the house was a mess because they were searching for the 12year old who had run away. How many places could a regular sized twelve year old actually hide for any period of time in a house? Not that I think a messy house at all warrants CPS involvement, but it just doesn’t make sense for a child that age. And the dad said the feces was due to puppies. But who doesn’t clean up that kind of mess immediately, especially with so many young children in the house? It has to smell terrible.

It sounds like the Mom is trying to claim they’re being targeted for being young parents with lots of children children and homeschooling.

[gaillardia]

My personal opinion: I seriously doubt they are a "homeschool family", just another excuse to be out of the radar and free to abuse, neglect, and screw up a bunch of kids. Pellet gun injuries? Bruises, Burns. The mess of the house is another issue entirely. Let's add not registered with the state for homeschooling which is not legal. 

Other homeschoolers are defending them on FB, Mergath? This is just ridiculous. 

 

[SKL]

I don't understand why the news keeps reporting the parents' denials and excuses.  I mean everyone denies their crimes, right?  Or was the photo / video with the poop fake?

I mean my house can get pretty messy.  I guarantee it would be messy if I had 10 young kids.  If the wrong CPS agent came over on the wrong day, it might not go well.  But poop and mold all over?  No.  Not in my worst day's worst nightmare.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

I don't understand why the news keeps reporting the parents' denials and excuses. 

 

So it stays in the news, duh. If it bleeds, it leads.

[Ausmumof3]

Yuck... generally news reports here where that level of dirt and abuse are going on there's drug abuse on some level...

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yuck... generally news reports here where that level of dirt and abuse are going on there's drug abuse on some level...

Yes, I served two weeks on grand jury here where many of the cases were drug related. The pictures of the homes were similar or worse.

[shinyhappypeople]

When the story originally broke my first thought was "PLEASE don't be homeschoolers!!!"  We just got through fighting a couple of asinine bills (AB2756, AB2926) as a result of the Turpins.  Hopefully, our legislators were sufficiently intimidated by 2,000 protestors showing up at the Education Committee meeting last month to prevent them from politicizing this case and attempting to increase regulations.  

[Katy]

I can't see past the paywall. Can someone please tell me the name of the family so I can find another source?

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

I can't see past the paywall. Can someone please tell me the name of the family so I can find another source?

Ina Rogers and Jonathan Alllen.

[Scarlett]

I fault the media for reporting this type of abuse as ' homeschoolers'. They should reporting it as allegedly, or supposedly or the parts claim to be homeschool, but there is no record of proper registration ect. 

[Guest]

“I am an amazing mother.” Umm...yeah, she’s amazing, but not in the way she means it...

[ktgrok]

Ugh, yeah, that photo of that bathroom proves they shouldn't be allowed a puppy, let alone children. 

[Bluegoat]

I just can't imagine being willing to use that bathroom myself, much less having my kids use it.  Even if I was selfish and didn't give a rats butt about my kids, I couldn't live like that.

[GinaPagnato]

The house was a mess, but conceivably could get that way if you have a ton of kids and nobody cleans up after they play.

But the bathroom...what the hell happened in that bathroom??

 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

I can’t believe she took reporters on a tour of the house! 

A lot of people who have squalid homes do not see their homes the way outsiders do. They are “blind” to it. It’s the same as people on the Hoarder tv show (not sure if that still airs). They seem to know it’s not typical, but they cannot see how having to walk on actual trash to get to some part of the house is extremely unhealthy and abnormal.

My own parents had flea infestations multiple times, but they did not register how abnormal that was and they didn’t go to much length to address it. You literally could not walk across the room without having fleas hopping onto your legs. They just agreed that it was “bad” and waited until the weather got cold. 

[Mergath]

7 hours ago, gaillardia said:

My personal opinion: I seriously doubt they are a "homeschool family", just another excuse to be out of the radar and free to abuse, neglect, and screw up a bunch of kids. Pellet gun injuries? Bruises, Burns. The mess of the house is another issue entirely. Let's add not registered with the state for homeschooling which is not legal. 

Other homeschoolers are defending them on FB, Mergath? This is just ridiculous. 

 

 

They defended the Turpins too, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

The two arguments I saw were 1) Parents should be allowed to do what they want and CPS is overreacting, and 2) It's a conspiracy!!! The government is going after homeschoolers!! They were framed!!!!

*eyeroll*

[Janeway]

I get tired of the media referring to anyone who just did not send their children to school as "home schoolers."

[Mergath]

1 minute ago, Janeway said:

I get tired of the media referring to anyone who just did not send their children to school as "home schoolers."

 

If they meet the legal requirements to be homeschoolers in their state, they're homeschoolers. Even if they did a horrible job.

[Janeway]

Just now, Mergath said:

 

If they meet the legal requirements to be homeschoolers in their state, they're homeschoolers. Even if they did a horrible job.

1) This family did not meet the legal requirements of home schooling and 2) no, they are not. They did not just do a terrible job. It is possible to not send a child to school without being a home schooler. Simply not sending a child to school does not make one a home schooler.

[Mergath]

1 minute ago, Janeway said:

1) This family did not meet the legal requirements of home schooling and 2) no, they are not. They did not just do a terrible job. It is possible to not send a child to school without being a home schooler. Simply not sending a child to school does not make one a home schooler.

 

Which article did you read that discussed this family not meeting the requirements? I hadn't seen that yet. 

[Janeway]

10 minutes ago, Mergath said:

 

Which article did you read that discussed this family not meeting the requirements? I hadn't seen that yet. 

I saw it in this thread. The family was not registered as home schoolers which is required in CA. 

 

And this article... https://apnews.com/03452b40ce7c4e27ab7f9ac9cc396dd0

[rutamattatt]

I didn't think the house was CPS worthy awful - just looked like the house of a family with a lot of kids who don't pick up.  But the BATHROOM.  Surely they didn't actually make the kids use that?!?!?!   We fostered 5 puppies for a week, and while 5 puppies can make a lot of poop, it never looked even close to that even for a minute at our house.  I can't get over the bathroom...

[Katy]

8 minutes ago, rutamattatt said:

I didn't think the house was CPS worthy awful - just looked like the house of a family with a lot of kids who don't pick up.  But the BATHROOM.  Surely they didn't actually make the kids use that?!?!?!   We fostered 5 puppies for a week, and while 5 puppies can make a lot of poop, it never looked even close to that even for a minute at our house.  I can't get over the bathroom...

 

I doubt the police were showed the bathroom when they initially showed up.  It was probably more the smell and sight of human and animal waste the moment they entered the home that prompted them to look around.  That's not something you can tell from pictures taken later.

[Cecropia]

To play devil's advocate re: the bathroom... in looking up the address on Zillow, the home is a 4 bedroom 4 bath residence.  I only see one picture being plastered everywhere of the really awful bathroom.  Anyone see other bathrooms?  I'd like to think that the remaining three were usable.  If they were as shocking as first one, they probably would have made the news photos, considering that the cluttered/messy room pictures were included.

[Garga]

Where is everyone else seeing pictures of the rest of the house? I can’t find them.  There’s a video in an article, but when I click to play it, it just sits there...so there’s probably something wrong with my computer.  

[SKL]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I fault the media for reporting this type of abuse as ' homeschoolers'. They should reporting it as allegedly, or supposedly or the parts claim to be homeschool, but there is no record of proper registration ect. 

They shouldn't be calling them homeschoolers at all (allegedly or otherwise).  If they have anything to say about the kids' education, the appropriate term is Truancy.

[Frances]

29 minutes ago, Cecropia said:

To play devil's advocate re: the bathroom... in looking up the address on Zillow, the home is a 4 bedroom 4 bath residence.  I only see one picture being plastered everywhere of the really awful bathroom.  Anyone see other bathrooms?  I'd like to think that the remaining three were usable.  If they were as shocking as first one, they probably would have made the news photos, considering that the cluttered/messy room pictures were included.

Another article I read quoted the father as saying that the puppies made this kind of mess in two of the bathrooms. 

[SKL]

I too was thinking maybe they have other bathrooms that they keep clean for human use.  Maybe that one bathroom we keep seeing is being dedicated to the puppies right now.  Though I still think I'd be better at cleaning up.  If it was a rough day and I hadn't got to cleaning it yet, I sure wouldn't let anyone film it.

But the police report info that was reported on the news was about much more than just one bathroom full of poop.

As for the clutter - I have to admit that at first glance, my thought was "this could be my younger kid's room."  There's a reason I've spent weeks decluttering in there and it still isn't done.  ?

[SeaConquest]

Regardless of the poop and home cleanliness issue, if the kids are telling people that they were abused, I would believe them. End of story for me.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Cecropia said:

To play devil's advocate re: the bathroom... in looking up the address on Zillow, the home is a 4 bedroom 4 bath residence.  I only see one picture being plastered everywhere of the really awful bathroom.  Anyone see other bathrooms?  I'd like to think that the remaining three were usable.  If they were as shocking as first one, they probably would have made the news photos, considering that the cluttered/messy room pictures were included.

Well, I did have that thought, too - that most probably this isn’t the main bathroom the people are using. However! There is allegedly human excrement elsewhere in the home in addition to dog feces. There is no normal, I-just-didn’t-get-to-cleaning-the-puppy-room, healthy situation that explains human poop in the house. And it is not the extent of alleged abuse; it’s not like, “oh, there’s one bathroom given over to the puppies right now end of story.” 

Also, tangent, but it really bugs me when people tattoo themselves into freakdom and then act surly about being “judged” based on the way they have decorated themselves. The mom says he “looks scary,” but then rejects his being judged based on his own self-designed scariness. This is not the same thing as being wrongly judged for something innate, like a man being presumed a criminal because he is dark-skinned, 6’5” and 258lbs of muscle. 

[Bluegoat]

3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

That’s what I can’t get?  Like, okay, houses can get a little gross.  But that is completely over he top mentally ill or addicted and non functioning levels of vile.  

 

Selfishly, my house would be cleaner because I’d have to live in it too.  The filth thing has never made sense to me when the parents seem to function.  Why would they let any part of their house or kids be so gross when it is better *for the parents* if the house and kids are healthy and in good shape? 

 

What it says to me is the problem isn't just that they don't care about their kids or are abusive.  It's something bigger than that - they really aren't able to function, or something is missing.

[Arcadia]

From SF Chronicle https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/Fairfield-parents-accused-of-abusing-10-kids-had-12917458.php

“Records obtained by The Chronicle show that Allen’s alleged pattern of abuse dates to late 2011.

On Nov. 9, 2011, Ina Rogers called police and said she had spent the night away from home. Allen was apparently angry and threatened to rip her head off when she got home, according to police. He reportedly threatened to kill her five children, including two from a previous relationship.

Rogers told police that their relationship had been plagued by domestic violence for the past three years, and while talking with an officer she removed her sunglasses to reveal a black eye. She also had a fading bruise on her calf and told police both came from an incident on Oct. 31.

That day Allen reportedly took her to work and started beating her in the face and kicking her. Then he took a .22 caliber gun, forced it into her mouth and threatened to shoot, police said, and placing it against her head and forcing her to beg for her life. She told police he had been to jail for previous domestic violence incidents with previous girlfriends.

Allen was charged with corporal injury to a spouse, cohabitant or child’s parent, assault with a firearm, and two counts of criminal threats. All felony allegations were against a victim identified as I.R. in court records, and Allen was later ordered to have no uninvited contact with Rogers.”

[Guest]

And then she had five more children with him. Awesome. 

[EmseB]

 

Why do I read the comments sections? This was from the WaPo comments section, which for some reason I thought would be less crazy than the rest of the internet.  And 55 people gave it a thumbs up!

 

Quote

having TEN kids is abuse, period whether one is white, black, purple or green and regardless of one's "religious" beliefs. It is abuse of the children who cannot--cannot-- receive full attention and care in this day and age, and it is certainly abuse of the planet which, poor Gaia, has to support us all. Second, YES, "home schooling" by these parents with that many children is laughable. All that woman has to teach is fecundity, and the soi-disant "father" has nothing...nothing. Home schooling is also abuse regardless of religious and social beliefs unless a child has special talents (musical genius) or special needs -- or lives too far from school in a wilderness. Home schooling is a religious and societal cop out and should be illegal except under strictly regulated situations. Third, this situation must be concluded with the woman having her tubes tied and that male creature surgically sterilized.

 

[BlsdMama]

11 hours ago, Mergath said:

I'm horrified at how many homeschoolers (over on FB) have been defending this family, saying that it's not that bad and that CPS is overreacting. 

The dad torturing the kids and a house full of poop and rotting food isn't that bad? 

Or shooting them with a BBgun... In what world does that make them "amazing" parents as the mother claims?  SMH.  

And they get labeled as homeschoolers.  Awesome - said no homeschool mom ever.

[BlsdMama]

2 hours ago, Janeway said:

1) This family did not meet the legal requirements of home schooling and 2) no, they are not. They did not just do a terrible job. It is possible to not send a child to school without being a home schooler. Simply not sending a child to school does not make one a home schooler.

Exactly.  It makes them illegal or truant.  Homeschooling, by its very name, connotates that education is going on at home.  

[EmseB]

Just now, BlsdMama said:

Exactly.  It makes them illegal or truant.  Homeschooling, by its very name, connotates that education is going on at home.  

Yes, even if you file an affidavit in CA you're still not homeschooling unless you're actually...homeschooling. Because filing the affidavit certifies that you're going to teach certain things and abide by certain standards.

[scrapbookbuzz]

There is nothing about this situation that even indicates they had any kind of education - home or not. 
I agree with a previous poster that there had to be drug involvement on the parents' end. My prayer for those kids is
that they get the therapy and medical treatment they absolutely need and get placed into families who will truly care for them.

[shinyhappypeople]

3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

That’s what I can’t get?  Like, okay, houses can get a little gross.  But that is completely over he top mentally ill or addicted and non functioning levels of vile.  

 

 Selfishly, my house would be cleaner because I’d have to live in it too.  The filth thing has never made sense to me when the parents seem to function.  Why would they let any part of their house or kids be so gross when it is better *for the parents* if the house and kids are healthy and in good shape? 

If the house has multiple bathrooms - and, elsewhere it's described as a large house, so it probably does - that bathroom might be designated as the one for the litter box, etc.  Still GROSS and smelly and unacceptable, but it's possible there's a more normal, messy-but-functional bathroom somewhere else in the house for people.  The only pictures I've seen are the gross bathroom and a really, really messy bedroom(?).

[sassenach]

5 hours ago, Mergath said:

 

If they meet the legal requirements to be homeschoolers in their state, they're homeschoolers. Even if they did a horrible job.

 

I'd love to know if they did meet that requirement. The Harts didn't legally keep up with the requirements but they were still called homeschoolers. 

[unsinkable]

38 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

I saw the Mom was released on 10k bail and the Dad is being held on 5.2 million bail. I'm assuming the DV mentioned upthread is the difference in the amounts?? 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/grandmother-says-10-children-removed-california-home-lived-torture-n874301

My impression was that the man was the only one named by the kids as being the one who physically abused them.

[LucyStoner]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

And then she had five more children with him. Awesome. 

A domestic violence dynamic is usually more complicated than this.  Let’s not pretend that a 23 year old woman with 5 kids who is with what sounds like a very abusive man can just up and leave.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  In this case, apparently not.  

DV victims have usually been trained over many years to make a lot of excuses for their abuser.  It may take her years to unravel her thinking about all of this.  

Doesn't mean the kids should have to suffer if she can’t care for them or protect them from the primary abuser or if she too is abusing them but it’s also not like there’s an over abundance of resources for people leaving domestic violence dynamics. 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

A domestic violence dynamic is usually more complicated than this.  Let’s not pretend that a 23 year old woman with 5 kids who is with what sounds like a very abusive man can just up and leave.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  In this case, apparently not.  

DV victims have usually been trained over many years to make a lot of excuses for their abuser.  It may take her years to unravel her thinking about all of this.  

Doesn't mean the kids should have to suffer if she can’t care for them or protect them from the primary abuser or if she too is abusing them but it’s also not like there’s an over abundance of resources for people leaving domestic violence dynamics. 

 

 

 

 

Be that as it may, I would NOT create more children with him. Personally, I don’t know how one even continues with the necessary act after that abuse, but I would do everything in my power to NOT conceive another child. Wasn’t that the point of fighting for reproductive rights for women? There are a variety of birth c@ntrol options that a woman can use in secret if this is yet another facet of his abuse. 

Sadly, I am pretty well acquainted with learned helplessness in controlling relationships. 

[LMD]

53 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

A domestic violence dynamic is usually more complicated than this.  Let’s not pretend that a 23 year old woman with 5 kids who is with what sounds like a very abusive man can just up and leave.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  In this case, apparently not.  

DV victims have usually been trained over many years to make a lot of excuses for their abuser.  It may take her years to unravel her thinking about all of this.  

Doesn't mean the kids should have to suffer if she can’t care for them or protect them from the primary abuser or if she too is abusing them but it’s also not like there’s an over abundance of resources for people leaving domestic violence dynamics. 

 

 

 

 

Yes. And controlling fertility is another tactic abusers use. Keeping her vulnerable and pregnant and dependent on him and providing more abusees could well be part of the violence dynamic.

* I am in no way at all meaning to imply that large families are correlated with abuse. In fact, fertility control can work the other way too, with forced abortions or spousal violence towards the pregnant woman. 

I hope he rots in prison <--- that's the polite version.

[Ausmumof3]

7 hours ago, Arcadia said:

From SF Chronicle https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/Fairfield-parents-accused-of-abusing-10-kids-had-12917458.php

“Records obtained by The Chronicle show that Allen’s alleged pattern of abuse dates to late 2011.

On Nov. 9, 2011, Ina Rogers called police and said she had spent the night away from home. Allen was apparently angry and threatened to rip her head off when she got home, according to police. He reportedly threatened to kill her five children, including two from a previous relationship.

Rogers told police that their relationship had been plagued by domestic violence for the past three years, and while talking with an officer she removed her sunglasses to reveal a black eye. She also had a fading bruise on her calf and told police both came from an incident on Oct. 31.

That day Allen reportedly took her to work and started beating her in the face and kicking her. Then he took a .22 caliber gun, forced it into her mouth and threatened to shoot, police said, and placing it against her head and forcing her to beg for her life. She told police he had been to jail for previous domestic violence incidents with previous girlfriends.

Allen was charged with corporal injury to a spouse, cohabitant or child’s parent, assault with a firearm, and two counts of criminal threats. All felony allegations were against a victim identified as I.R. in court records, and Allen was later ordered to have no uninvited contact with Rogers.”

So yet again if domestic violence had actually been adequately prosecuted this living hell could have ended 7 years ago.  

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Be that as it may, I would NOT create more children with him. Personally, I don’t know how one even continues with the necessary act after that abuse, but I would do everything in my power to NOT conceive another child. Wasn’t that the point of fighting for reproductive rights for women? There are a variety of birth c@ntrol options that a woman can use in secret if this is yet another facet of his abuse. 

Sadly, I am pretty well acquainted with learned helplessness in controlling relationships. 

 

Quill, one of the strongest women I know was forced to have multiple abortions against her will by her abusive spouse.  She eventually left him.  It required moving out of state and changing all of their names, giving up her professional license to practice her profession and basically living like she was in witness protection- no contact with old family or friends until after he has died.  

This is a woman who no one would see and think she was easy to push around.  

When my SIL was in her early twenties she decided that she wouldn’t have more kids with my brother.  Very smart decision.  He was abusive and he was addicted to drugs.  She was still almost unable to get a doctor who would give her a tubal when she had her c-section because they thought she was too young to decide to make a permanant decision about her birth control.  She also knew it was the only thing she could do because there wasn’t anyway, given the control he exerted that she could have reliably filled or used other methods.  It was get it done at the hospital or nothing.  Finally a doctor agreed but some of the other doctors actually wanted to talk to my brother about it.  This was 2005, not 1955.  

It’s just not as simple as “I would never”.  It could well be that having more kids was what she wanted or it could be that it’s what he wanted and her continued compliance saved her life.  

And if you don’t understand how one “continues with the necessary act” I really don’t understand why any woman would need to be reminded that the necessary act is not one that women only do out of free choice.  Hello.  Marital rape:  it’s a thing.  Going along with what the abuser wants to stay alive:  also a thing.  

 

[SamanthaCarter]

Am I reading correctly that this woman had ten children in the space of 14 years?? And works a job outside of the home? There’s absolutely no way she could have adequately cared for those children with an abusive husband and no help. ?

[Frances]

52 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Am I reading correctly that this woman had ten children in the space of 14 years?? And works a job outside of the home? There’s absolutely no way she could have adequately cared for those children with an abusive husband and no help. ?

I think it was actually 11, but it appears one of her children did not live with them, probably the oldest who would be around 14, given that her first pregnancy was at age 16.

Personally, I think even without the abuse, it would be a rare couple that could manage two jobs outside of the home on opposite schedules  (she worked graveyard shift) and the care and schooling of ten young children without significant help. My parents did it for a few years with three children below school age, working opposite shifts, and it took a very large toll on them. Lack of adequate sleep has serious consequences on both mental and physical health. Eventually, my mom quit work completely and my dad moved to all day shifts.