Prolonged adolescence and suburbia

[Xahm]

People often discuss problems related to prolonged adolescence, and yesterday it struck me how much of our infrastructure is enforcing this situation.

Yesterday I was driving through part of our city's exurbia (the area even further out than suburbia) and was struck once again by the terrible planning going into these giant subdivisions in the middle of nowhere with no mass transit nor any effective way of later adding mass transit. (People who live in that area frequently commute 90 minutes EACH WAY to the city to work). They are built with the clear expectation that every trip or errand anywhere will involve a car, and thus no one without a car will have any independence. I hear stories of the past and I have lived in countries where it's still true that elementary-age kids were and are expected to get themselves to school, to sports practice, to play with a friend, etc in little groups or even independently. In many suburbs and exurbs, no one can even THINK of doing that until age 16. Then, and only then, they are able to take their first tentative steps towards independence while behind the wheel of a a massive and powerful piece of machinery. Since that is obviously a terrible idea, lawmakers and insurance companies make it more difficult and expensive to get a license at 16, and many parents discourage their kids from doing so until they've matured some. Then we wonder where the young people of our nation are going wrong, needing their parents to accompany them to the college admissions office or job interview.

Thoughts? Especially from parents of teens who live places where the car is the assumed mode of transportation. We intentionally bought a house within reasonable walking distance of some things (high school, library, church, a few stores that would hire youth), and with access to the public bus system (which is very limited, but is at least something), but I wish we were somewhere truly walkable. How do other families support independence when youth are so dependent on adults for transportation? Is there anything, short of moving or going into politics, that can be done? At our city council and zoning meeting people are always touting walkability while voting down or voicing opposition to any dense development. Can there be true walkability without somewhat dense development?

[madteaparty]

I have this problem now because DS just needs a driver, not a teacher, and I’m ambivalent about being his driver. I think he will be taking Uber or a taxi a lot next semester. But I don’t have the maturity issue bc he travels to the city by himself and flies by himself etc. His city friends navigate the subway, busses, etc by themselves, it’s pretty crazy to me as I myself get lost all the time. 

[Xahm]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

There absolutely can be walkability in dense developments, btw. Our suburb is undergoing intense development, from low to a mix of medium and high density, and the one thing it doesn't affect adversely is walkability. 

I meant, can there be walkability without density? I agree that increasing density usually improves walkability.

[chiguirre]

You nailed it. I'm currently teaching Trinqueta to drive because she needs to be able to get around without me. Not being able to drive means that she is completely dependent on me to taxi her around, drop her off and pick her up. She handles the actual activities on her own, I'm just the ride.

 

ETA: On the plus side, we have the best conversations in the car. We pick an audiobook to listen to together and then pause it and discuss. We wouldn't get into such deep topics if we didn't have to drive around together so often.

[Xahm]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

Sorry to misunderstand.

No problem. I'm operating on way less sleep than I need and am amazed any of this makes sense!

[Jean in Newcastle]

I dtop my independent kids off to do things all the time. It doesn’t mean that I am holding their hands at college or volunteering or work. 

(Ds does have a car now and I am grateful for that but he did not drive until he was 18 and waiting did not make him less independent. ). 

[Xahm]

9 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I dtop my independent kids off to do things all the time. It doesn’t mean that I am holding their hands at college or volunteering or work. 

(Ds does have a car now and I am grateful for that but he did not drive until he was 18 and waiting did not make him less independent. ). 

I guess this is part of what I'm asking about. Since you are driving your kids, clearly they are dependent on your schedule and availability. Do you just make a point of being available as much as possible? Is there anything else you've done to specifically encourage developing independence? I'm thinking of the ability to make plans all on their own, to troubleshoot issues as they arise, and make other choices without automatically running it by you.

[AimeeM]

This has always been a thing and always will be. Not everyone wants to live close to stores, etc. 

We live in a subdivision that is somewhat removed from "places." It's 3+ miles to the nearest store. So, really, it's a very short drive, but too long to walk -- and I wouldn't want my kids or biking the curvy roads that lead from our neighborhood to the store, gym, etc. 

Our teenager has a car. We bought it for her (kind of a later 16th birthday present). Otherwise, we drop her off places with friends. No public transportation where we live.

Growing up, we didn't live in a big subdivision at all. It was a regular, run-of-the-mill older neighborhood (all the houses were different, built at different times and by different builders, no HOA, etc.). Most of the homes were built between 1950-1980, I think. We weren't close enough to walk anywhere -- not schools, not stores. Actually, of all the places we lived when I was growing up (a few different houses). And none of the places I lived were in areas that public transportation picked up near. And, still, 2 of the 3 homes were not in any way considered "the country" or "removed." 

Around here, the only houses that are really within walking distance of stores and similar are downtown district apartments and homes in the historic district of our downtown. There are neighborhoods that are within walking distance of most schools -- but the elementary, middle, and high schools are so far from each other, that your kid wouldn't be able to walk to school their entire childhood. And homes that butt up against schools go quickly around here. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Running their schedules by me is part of beibg independent and responsible. Dd16 does that. Ds20 does when it is necessary (which is not all the time). 

I am committed to providing transportation. It is part of parenting a young adult. I do not begrudge my children this any more than I begrudged them my time when they were younger  

Both my kids have had responsibilities at home and elsewhere  They meet those responsibilities and make me proud  

 

 

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

I've never lived anywhere that had great public transportation.  I grew up in the suburbs.  Until we had a license, our independence was limited to where we could go on a bike.  When we got a license, you had to toe the line in order to have some access to the family car (unless you had a job and earned the $$ to buy a car - mostly males did this because they could get better paying jobs at that time.)  I have to say that I was totally inept at using public transportation (still feel uncomfortable until I really know where I am going), but I could navigate expressways and drive to other cities, unlike my city raised counterparts.

We currently live in a suburb, but I do find my kids had less freedom.  Fewer parents home means fewer kids to play with in the neighborhood.  (Plus, since we homeschooled, they didn't have as much in common with the few neighborhood kids who were home.)  Plus, more traffic and more distracted drivers means biking is more dangerous.  Which meant more driving on my part.  That said, I encouraged my kids to get their licenses as soon as possible because I wanted as much driving experience as possible with our supervision and counsel.  We had pretty tight reins on the car, but encouraged them to drive and navigate as much as possible.  Two of my kids spend more time in the city and are pros at navigating both highways and public transportation.

[Xahm]

14 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Running their schedules by me is part of beibg independent and responsible. Dd16 does that. Ds20 does when it is necessary (which is not all the time). 

I am committed to providing transportation. It is part of parenting a young adult. I do not begrudge my children this any more than I begrudged them my time when they were younger  

Both my kids have had responsibilities at home and elsewhere  They meet those responsibilities and make me proud  

 

 

 

I hope I'm not coming off as accusing or combative. I grew up in the late nineties, early 2000s dependent on my parents for rides, and I'm very grateful for the sacrifices they made, but their time was finite, and I had to turn down opportunities because it wasn't fair to them or my siblings to ask them to spend 90 extra minutes in rush hour traffic so I could go to a 45 minute meeting after school. That decision making certainly helped with maturity in some ways, but clearly had a cost as well. Now that I'm shifting perspective from "I was a teen not too long ago" to "I'll have a teen before terribly long," I'm thinking of how to improve things that can be improved and make the most of situations that can't.

 

[marbel]

We live in a place with terrible public transit.  We can get into the city by train, but we can't get around our own town by bus or other mass transit.  

But like Jean, I am just the driver. I took my kids to their college adviser appointments, job interviews, etc and waited in the car or in a cafe.  The advisers/potential bosses/etc never knew I was there. 

I do still occasionally drive my older kid someplace even though he has his license and full access to a car. He has some anxiety issues which make some trips difficult. For example, he attended a transfer event at a college about an hour from here. He'd never been there before, and he was nervous about the event. So, I drove. I wandered the campus, drank coffee and read till he was done.  Again, no one  knew I was there; I didn't help him at all except to get him there. He was glad not to have to focus on the driving.  And, we had a good time together in the car, especially when he was debriefing me on the events of the day. If he ends up going to that college, he will drive himself.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

16 minutes ago, xahm said:

I hope I'm not coming off as accusing or combative. I grew up in the late nineties, early 2000s dependent on my parents for rides, and I'm very grateful for the sacrifices they made, but their time was finite, and I had to turn down opportunities because it wasn't fair to them or my siblings to ask them to spend 90 extra minutes in rush hour traffic so I could go to a 45 minute meeting after school. That decision making certainly helped with maturity in some ways, but clearly had a cost as well. Now that I'm shifting perspective from "I was a teen not too long ago" to "I'll have a teen before terribly long," I'm thinking of how to improve things that can be improved and make the most of situations that can't.

 

My daughter’s activities tend to be within a mile of home most of the time. So it takes  me only 3 minutes to drop her  off places. During the day she can walk, bike or run to them. I value her activities. I do insist on dropping off or picking her up at night. I don’t want her to be a statistic. 

My son was in a bad accident in January. Taking him to school and work added three hours of driving to my schedule. Was I thrilled?  Of course not. But family helps family.  His need wasn’t his fault and helping him until he could get healed and insurance settled was in his best interest.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Public transportation would have meant that my son would not be able to meet his college or work schedules. Not all places have good public transportation. 

[Joker]

We have never lived anywhere with public transportation. In Florida, dc could walk a few places. Dh and I do some driving but we also put it on them to find rides from driving friends as well. Ds, 18, mostly schedules rides with friends at this point and just lets us know where he will be and/or when he'll be home. 

[SKL]

A tween or teen can take the bus, and at least where I live, bus service extends to the suburbs.  Bikes are also an option.  Car pools too.

When I was age 12-21, we lived in a rural town over 60 miles from the "big city" and 12 miles from the nearest small city.  High school was about a mile away.  We walked to school / sports / grocery / doctor etc., rode bikes all around the county (including summer enrichment school and various jobs), and occasionally bummed a ride when we needed to go somewhere further.  We got creative and made do.  Meanwhile we saved up for a jalope.

I do hate the fact that it's about a mile from my house to the nearest bus stop.  But that really is not an excuse for a teen to be unmotivated.  Where there's a will, there's a way.

[Daria]

I live in the suburbs where there's great public transportation, and lots of walkability although in a suburban sprawl kind of way (meaning, I can walk to several strip malls and get all my needs met, but it's more boring than walking down small town mainstreet, or through an urban area).  I don't own a car, and my job includes a component of teaching young adults with disabilities how to use public transportation, so I know what I'm talking about.  

I am constantly amazed how many adults and young adults I know, without disabilities, that have no idea how to use public transportation.  Kids are driven everywhere, and then given cars when they turn 16.   

I am glad that the first times my kid got completely and utterly lost, he wasn't driving, so he could concentrate on problem solving without also worrying about a car, but it's clear that many people don't agree. 

[Daria]

3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

The second time ds went to the city by himself, he got to the station and the trains were cancelled; he had to work out a bus to catch, where to get off, how to get to another station blah blah and still get to class on time (I think he was 10 min late). He was pretty chuffed that he solved the problem ?

 

10 minutes is pretty impressive!

My 13 year old got on the wrong bus, and got all the way out to the distant suburbs before he noticed.  He called me and said "all the street signs say . . . "  and I thought "whoa that's a long way out".  

It turned out the bus he was on was rush hour only, so he couldn't just cross the street and take another one in the opposite direction.  

He was supposed to be at his summer class at 8, and got there just in time for lunch.  
 

[SKL]

2 hours ago, xahm said:

I guess this is part of what I'm asking about. Since you are driving your kids, clearly they are dependent on your schedule and availability. Do you just make a point of being available as much as possible? Is there anything else you've done to specifically encourage developing independence? I'm thinking of the ability to make plans all on their own, to troubleshoot issues as they arise, and make other choices without automatically running it by you.

Or they could be dependent on the city bus schedule or carpool limitations.  Independence doesn't preclude interdependence.

For some time when I was a young college student, our family of 8 all shared 1 car.  My mom worked in our small town, dad in the nearby city, and several of us kids went to college across town from where my dad worked - but we had different class schedules.  Oh, and my parents also both attended the college in the evenings.  The youngest kids who were not in college needed adult involvement too, with or without a car.  We all figured out an arrangement that took care of everyone's needs.  A fair amount of responsibility and give-and-take was involved on all sides.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, xahm said:

I hope I'm not coming off as accusing or combative. I grew up in the late nineties, early 2000s dependent on my parents for rides, and I'm very grateful for the sacrifices they made, but their time was finite, and I had to turn down opportunities because it wasn't fair to them or my siblings to ask them to spend 90 extra minutes in rush hour traffic so I could go to a 45 minute meeting after school. That decision making certainly helped with maturity in some ways, but clearly had a cost as well. Now that I'm shifting perspective from "I was a teen not too long ago" to "I'll have a teen before terribly long," I'm thinking of how to improve things that can be improved and make the most of situations that can't.

 

Yes, we all had and have to turn down opportunities because there are only so many hours in the day.  I don't know anyone who gets to be wherever he wants at all hours without a thought for how it affects others.  Being able to do whatever one wants because one has no constraints does not sound like a path to maturity.

[LMD]

Yes, I had this in mind when we made the decision to move rural. Now I'm having to be very deliberate about creating opportunities to take steps for independence. But some better infrastructure- especially reliable and regular buses would help a lot.

[KathyBC]

3 hours ago, xahm said:

People often discuss problems related to prolonged adolescence, and yesterday it struck me how much of our infrastructure is enforcing this situation.

Yesterday I was driving through part of our city's exurbia (the area even further out than suburbia) and was struck once again by the terrible planning going into these giant subdivisions in the middle of nowhere with no mass transit nor any effective way of later adding mass transit. (People who live in that area frequently commute 90 minutes EACH WAY to the city to work). They are built with the clear expectation that every trip or errand anywhere will involve a car, and thus no one without a car will have any independence. I hear stories of the past and I have lived in countries where it's still true that elementary-age kids were and are expected to get themselves to school, to sports practice, to play with a friend, etc in little groups or even independently. In many suburbs and exurbs, no one can even THINK of doing that until age 16. Then, and only then, they are able to take their first tentative steps towards independence while behind the wheel of a a massive and powerful piece of machinery. Since that is obviously a terrible idea, lawmakers and insurance companies make it more difficult and expensive to get a license at 16, and many parents discourage their kids from doing so until they've matured some. Then we wonder where the young people of our nation are going wrong, needing their parents to accompany them to the college admissions office or job interview.

Thoughts? Especially from parents of teens who live places where the car is the assumed mode of transportation. We intentionally bought a house within reasonable walking distance of some things (high school, library, church, a few stores that would hire youth), and with access to the public bus system (which is very limited, but is at least something), but I wish we were somewhere truly walkable. How do other families support independence when youth are so dependent on adults for transportation? Is there anything, short of moving or going into politics, that can be done? At our city council and zoning meeting people are always touting walkability while voting down or voicing opposition to any dense development. Can there be true walkability without somewhat dense development?

We've noticed these things, but at least in our area the causes seem to be exactly inverse: city kids can take the bus everywhere so they don't get their license and then when transit is not convenient they are still dependent upon their parents. In our rural location, the kids are usually *extremely* motivated to get their license. There is much less of kids still living at home as jobs, education and opportunity are elsewhere. Other things that play into it are rural kids' opportunities to drive other vehicles earlier (though the safety people are intent on making that as difficult as possible, since yes it does pose risk); and the opportunity for starter jobs since there are fewer people to fill those positions. They often have at least a bit of dough to contribute to the very expensive process of getting a license and insurance. City kids seem to have a bit harder time finding their first part-time job.

[Jean in Newcastle]

In our state, parents can no longer teach kids under 18 to drive. And it is no longer taught in the public schools. So teen drivers have to go to a private driver’s school for a fee of about $500. Plus, we were told that as soon as our son got his license, we had to put him on our car insurance. Neither my husband and I or our teens could afford this. 

When my son was 18 I was able to teach him to drive for free.  By the time he had his license he could afford his own license, registration and insurance  To me, that is a lot more independent than providing all of it for him earlier when he was younger.

 I don’t get the fixation with public transportation.  It really isn’t rocket science for a capable teen or adult to figure out how to take a bus.  My kids don’t take a lot of buses but they are perfectly capable of looking up a schedule online, going to the bus stop, getting on, paying etc  I figured out how to take public transportation in my teens in a new-to-me country before the age of Internet.  My kids organized their own trips out of state this summer including plane, car rental and bus travel by themselves.  No angst.  No problems.  

 

[MistyMountain]

Yes the suburb cities and sprawl of our country drive me crazy. I even thought of getting my masters in urban planning at one point but I think I would feel so dejected doing that. It is such poor planning and not environmentally sustainable to rely on a car to get everywhere in a world of dwindling resources. It also does make places less community oriented. It does not feel dense when you have well planned mixed use walkable and bike able communities where green space is preserved and their is good public transportation too. Yes I do wish it was easier for kids to walk or bike all kinds of places like in other countries that were planned before cars. I think it is good for idependence and responsibility for older kids and teens to get to places without needing to be driven by their parents but our communities are not designed like that. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

52 minutes ago, MistyMountain said:

Yes the suburb cities and sprawl of our country drive me crazy. I even thought of getting my masters in urban planning at one point but I think I would feel so dejected doing that. It is such poor planning and not environmentally sustainable to rely on a car to get everywhere in a world of dwindling resources. It also does make places less community oriented. It does not feel dense when you have well planned mixed use walkable and bike able communities where green space is preserved and their is good public transportation too. Yes I do wish it was easier for kids to walk or bike all kinds of places like in other countries that were planned before cars. I think it is good for idependence and responsibility for older kids and teens to get to places without needing to be driven by their parents but our communities are not designed like that. 

Our small suburban city has been adding sidewalks and bike lanes to make it much more walkable and bikeable.  Public transportation though is outside of the City's purview.  That is up to the county transit company as to what buses and routes they offer.  Outside of peak hours (rush hour), the bus only comes once an hour.  Plus, to get to most places you have to transfer to another bus.  So unless you happen to be going somewhere right on the bus line or absolutely have to take a bus, most people won't take them.  Which then means that the transit company will cut routes and schedules even further. . .   And you get a catch-22.  When I lived in the Big City in college, I took the bus everywhere but buses came every 15 minutes at least and you had more than one route to choose from so it was often even more often than that. 

[kiwik]

When i was a kid we lived 5 miles from town and had no car.  We stayed home and played with siblings and cousins. We could walk to school.  Now I live within walking distance of  city center but all sports venues are miles away.  There are bus services but it would probably take 2 hours and a lot of money and the stop early.

[Ottakee]

THIS is exactly why I am looking at moving.  I am not single parenting and have 3 young adults that will never be able to drive.  We are 10-12+ miles from any town, major store, etc and biking isn't an option on roads with speed limits of 55-65mph and higher traffic.

It does limit my kids a great deal as I have to work and therefore am not available at all times to drive them.  Uber is not available in out area and a special needs transport option was going to be $17 each way....far out of our budget.

The 2 small towns I am considering have an on demand bus service for $1.50/ride and do door to door service.  With this my kids could go to the movies, store, parks, etc without me needing to take them everywhere.

 

 

[Clemsondana]

I never lived anywhere walkable as a kid, and I remember feeling very independent as friends started getting cars and we could come and go on our own.  That being said, I'm amazed at how independent we were in other ways.  My parents let me plan my schedule at school starting in 7th grade - they'd sign whatever list of classes I gave them (they probably would have intervened if I did something crazy).  I managed my extracurricular schedule -  they got me where I needed to go, but it was my job to make sure that they knew where and when, and that it didn't interfere with homework.  If I needed to sit on a bench for 30-45 min and do homework while I waited because sibling also needed to be picked up, so be it.  If I needed help with a school subject, I could call a friend or talk to the teacher on my own.  I occasionally babysat for the elementary school principal's 2yo and 4yo starting in 7th grade - I fed them dinner, gave baths, and put them to bed.  Although I didn't have a lot 'location independence', I had increasing amounts of responsibility and academic independence, such that once I had access to transportation or lived somewhere walkable (my college campus) the main transition was 'not getting in mom's car'.  

I compare that with how schools have changed, with parents signing agendas for middle schoolers, for instance (my parents signed report cards, but nothing daily or weekly).  Moms that I know discuss at what age we can start leaving kids home alone, not because we fear for their safety, but because they are concerned about legality.  I have had homeschooled high schoolers tell me that they don't have their homework because their mom didn't print it (many students manage their classes independently, though).  I try to give increasing amounts of independence and responsibility to my own kids - allowing my younger to go to the ball field playground or concessions during sibling's games as long as 'the sisters' stay together, sending my older with $ and a list to order carryout at the other end of the shopping center and bring it back during younger's karate lesson...and I've gotten 'I can't believe that you let them do that - it's so dangerous if you're not watching them' pushback at times.  

I guess that's just to say that, while 'freedome of movement' is a big deal, as a society we seem to chip away at lots of types of freedom and responsibility that kids probably should have.  But, kids in 'low public transit' places do have adult things that they can do - this year my 12yo was going to plant a few things to work on his scout gardening merit badge and ended up planting most of our 30' x 60' garden.  While he'll be dependent on me to get to practices for the forseeable future, he can also say that he planted much of the vegetable that our family will eat in the next year.  

[Carrie12345]

9 hours ago, xahm said:

 

Thoughts? Especially from parents of teens who live places where the car is the assumed mode of transportation.

 

Well, I have one young adult whose primary residence is in suburbia, but he can technically still walk to a decent number of places, and could technically Uber as-needed.  However, ASD plays a role in his situation.

My other two teens live smack in the middle of nowhere. An Uber to the mall would be around $50.  One way.  The nearest mini mart is 2 miles down the road.  Neither is eligible to drive yet. (One is getting ready for her permit.)  They're at our complete mercy.  But they're independent in many other ways - the ones that count most to me, and make me feel very comfortable about their ability to function as adults without an extended adolescence.  I've focused on life skills, emotional maturity, a wide variety of interpersonal relationships, getting them to take on leadership positions, giving them responsibility for their own education and activities... A license and a car don't provide those things on their own.

But, yeah, all that has taken quite a lot of driving for me.  And that's not something every parent has the ability to do.  My mom certainly didn't (single mom working multiple jobs, plus multiple volunteer roles), and I did grow up in a suburb.  I didn't suffer an extended adolescence.  I may have done some childish things, but I took care of business.  I had my first place before I turned 19.  I had my first child when I was 21. I got married the same year my entire family moved far away, at 23. I was never stunted by suburban living in a state where you can't get a license until 17.

 

[Carrie12345]

9 hours ago, xahm said:

I guess this is part of what I'm asking about. Since you are driving your kids, clearly they are dependent on your schedule and availability. Do you just make a point of being available as much as possible? Is there anything else you've done to specifically encourage developing independence? I'm thinking of the ability to make plans all on their own, to troubleshoot issues as they arise, and make other choices without automatically running it by you.

 

I'm in a position where my schedule is mostly my kids' schedule.  But that's a big part of why I'm a sahm and we homeschool. These are choices that we've been fortunate to be able to make.

I do have some of my own stuff, as do the parents of my kids' friends, so they've learned (for the most part) how to coordinate non-routine events/activities.  They all get used to being dropped somewhere until a parent can get them, spending extra time waiting around, or making it clear to others that they'll need to run late.

I HAVE found that their activities that involve public school students are harder for us.  Like, their softball coach will not (maybe cannot, though I haven't seen it in writing) leave my 14 and 15yos at a field if practice ends early.  I usually stay, but there are times I need to do other things, and they don't give an official end time.  So, if the coach wants to leave, I'm rushing my rear back while she's "stuck" waiting for me.  I find that ridiculous, but I guess I have to accept that other people find teenagers on a school field to be dangerous. @@  It's a lot easier to be involved with other area homeschoolers who have the same or similar standards of "Sit tight. I'll be there when I get there."

 

[Pawz4me]

Cars are the assumed mode of transportation here. There is little to no reliable mass transit.

I don't buy the premise at all. It seems almost ludicrous to me to try to correlate something as complicated as prolonged adolescence with lack of mass transit or walkability. It's the simplicity of the argument in the face of what is apparently a complex problem that seems so very wrong to me. (And I used "apparently" not because I don't think the problem of prolonged adolescence is real; I use it because I personally have never met anyone who I believe has that problem.)

Using mass transit isn't rocket science. Any reasonably intelligent mid-teen should be able to figure it out relatively easily, especially if said teen has the benefit of a smart phone (most transit systems have apps nowadays). My boys were raised w/o access to mass transit. They had a small amount of experience with subways and bus systems in our travels, but in general DH and I aren't fond of large cities, so those didn't make our travel plans much. DS22 did study abroad in Europe when he was 19. It was his first non-Canada international travel experience. With the exception of a bit of confusion in the Munich train station (where apparently a couple of German college girls were more than happy to help) he had zero problems dealing with planes, trains and buses. I do not think he's exceptional for being able to do that. I could give many more real life, personally known to me examples, but really -- It. Is. Not. Hard.

I could make an alternating premise that kids who don't have reliable mass transit are likely to be more independent, because they have to be much more creative in finding ways to get where they need to be. Would that be an accurate premise? Probably not. But probably no less accurate than the original, either. 

[Another Lynn]

I grew up semi-rural and car dependent.  My kids are growing up semi-rural and car dependent.  Living in a more dense environment is not and has never been a goal of mine.  I'm not sure how bus riding is a more noble entry into adulthood than car driving.  (It's not.)  Prolonged adolescence, imho, is a function of various things one of which may be media reaction to preventable tragedies.  

[Momto6inIN]

In my area we are all transportation dependent, not just teens. Nobody can go anywhere without a car because we live in a very rural agricultural area with no mass transit (and nowhere special to go within 30 miles even if we had it lol). If my under 16 kids want to go somewhere - or I want them to go somewhere - then it's up to me and A car to get them there. Accepting that fact is part of *adult* life in a rural area. I definitely wouldn't conflate lack of access to mass transit with prolonged adolescence and lack of independence.

 

[CAJinBE]

When I grew up I took my bike to my first job, the bus to school, and when I was 16 drove to school and work. My mom didn't have a license so she was never able to take me anywhere and my dad worked at a factory job. By the time he got home from work, it was clear that he was going to be having his dinner and relaxing, not driving kids around. Times change. Where we live now the driving age is 18 but still most kids don't get their licenses until closer to 19 or even later. There is public transport and most local kids rely on that or take their bikes. I tend to drive mine most places because of the weather and I don't like them taking public transportation in certain areas of the city at night. Also there are few jobs available to teens. Student jobs are very controlled. Things like stocking shelves and being cashiers are all full time adult positions. Waiters are professionals and not students. There are a few more opportunities in the summer, but we tend to travel then. So I do feel like their adolescence is prolonged. On the other hand, they have had opportunities that I never dreamed of having. 

[Scarlett]

I agree there is a problem with prolonged adolescence. But I doubt it is related to lack of public transport.  I have lived rural my entire life and getting a car was just the very normal thing to do ASAP. Some kids were handed a brand new one and some had to work babysitting from age 12 on to save enough to buy a beater at age 16. We paid 3k for my step sons car and his insurance is $60 per month.  We pay that but I don't think the amount is so high he couldn't manage it if he had to.

dh and I are in discussions now though about dss not yet working.  I don't know why he isn't more interested in working.  To me that is a problem.  I see it quite a bit but I also see some teens working hard and happy to be making their own money.  

[Joker]

51 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Cars are the assumed mode of transportation here. There is little to no reliable mass transit.

I don't buy the premise at all. It seems almost ludicrous to me to try to correlate something as complicated as prolonged adolescence with lack of mass transit or walkability. It's that the simplicity of the argument in the face of what is apparently a complex problem that seems so very wrong to me. (And I used "apparently" not because I don't think the problem of prolonged adolescence is real; I use it because I personally have never met anyone who I believe has that problem.)

Using mass transit isn't rocket science. Any reasonably intelligent mid-teen should be able to figure it out relatively easily, especially if said teen has the benefit of a smart phone (most transit systems have apps nowadays). My boys were raised w/o access to mass transit. They had a small amount of experience with subways and bus systems in our travels, but in general DH and I aren't fond of large cities, so those didn't make our travel plans much. DS22 did study abroad in Europe when he was 19. It was his first non-Canada international travel experience. With the exception of a bit of confusion in the Munich train station (where apparently a couple of German college girls were more than happy to help) he had zero problems dealing with planes, trains and buses. I do not think he's exceptional for being able to do that. I could give many more real life, personally known to me examples, but really -- It. Is. Not. Hard.

I could make an alternating premise that kids who don't have reliable mass transit are likely to be more independent, because they have to be much more creative in finding ways to get where they need to be. Would that be an accurate premise? Probably not. But probably no less accurate than the original, either. 

 

I wanted to point out that I haven't met anyone with this problem either. I hear about here and in the media often but I've never known anyone who fits the description. I have two teens, 18 and 16, and none of their friends are this way. I also have two family members in different states who teach high school and don't see these issues.  I'm wondering where these kids actually are. 

[fairfarmhand]

I don’t know. Where I live fosters a different kind of independence. Want to go hunting or fishing? Good. Go out back and do so. Want to camp? You know where the tent is. Many farm kids are working decent paying jobs in their early teens, caring for livestock and helping grow their family’s food. Yeah they may be depending on a mom or a cousin to drive them places but it’s a different kind of independence. I think for those of us who live in places where you have to drive, we just need to focus on developing different types of independence in our kids. Car maintenance household maintenance managing a household/ garden/landscape and such can help our kids grow in these areas. Also, I expect my kids to be as independent as they can be. This means they get the details of activities (who, what, when, where, cost) they coordinate transportation with friends parents, and talk it over with me. I do expect lots of communication. But they manage. Not living in a walkable/dense area doesn’t necessarily preclude independence. I’m an adult who’s never used public transportation. 

[regentrude]

11 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I dtop my independent kids off to do things all the time. It doesn’t mean that I am holding their hands at college or volunteering or work. 

(Ds does have a car now and I am grateful for that but he did not drive until he was 18 and waiting did not make him less independent. ). 

Huh? I don't understand the bolded. By definition, a young person who has to rely on mom for transportation cannot have the same level of independence as a person who can take care of his own transportation needs, as he is dependent on the adult to drive him. 

[Bluegoat]

So, yes, I do think thee limitations of poorly built suburbia are bad for kids independence.

To me, it's not just a matter of getting around - it's more, are there opportunities for kids to be away from the parental gaze, to feel alone and need to make decisions, to be really responsible for themselves, to need to solve real problems?  I don't think this is something that starts in the teen years, I think it starts when a six year old begins to go out in the neighbourhood with friends or to a playground etc.  The 12 year old who can get to the lake for a day with her friends or drive a bike to lesson, the 16 year old that can take the bus across town are extensions of that.  

I don't think it matters if they learn to drive - the method of transport isn't the point here, it's the level of decision making, competence over real problems, empowerment.

FWIW, when I lived rurally, although kids were dependant on cars, they gained these same competencies in other ways.  Often their friends had cars and they learned to drive early, but they would spend time in camps in the woods without parents, they helped out on the farm where there were serious consequences if they were't responsible, they generally all worked for $ at a jobstarting at age 10 or 12 (no longer true generally as the kids now refuse the work) and so on.  

I had some ability to do that growing up, and got lost on the bus for the first time at 12.  No cell phones of course, I had to solve the problem.  We chose this home in large part for accessibility - it's a non-trendy suburb, (so far,) but has great bus connections and walkability.  And kids run around in a pack from early on - in summer I often don't see them all day.  

[regentrude]

We live in a  small town without any public transit options. We intentionally chose our home to be within  biking distance from work.  For in-town transport, my kids used bikes before they could drive. We taught them to ride bikes safely on the road. I actually think biking before driving is a great way to become an observant traffic participant. Back home, all kids take mandatory bikers ed in 4th grade, are tested by a police officer, and receive a biking license that certifies they are fit to ride in traffic. I wish this was a general precursor to teens driving cars.

However, for all transportation needs outside the town, they were dependent on an adult driver. There is no way to ride safely a bicycle to the horse barn, ten miles outside town on a curvy country road with heavy traffic. Nor is there any way to reach the judo club 100 miles away without a car.

My kids learned to drive at 16. Driving significantly increased their independence.

[regentrude]

7 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

 I don’t get the fixation with public transportation.  It really isn’t rocket science for a capable teen or adult to figure out how to take a bus.  My kids don’t take a lot of buses but they are perfectly capable of looking up a schedule online, going to the bus stop, getting on, paying etc

But this requires public transportation to exist. Which is not the case everywhere in the country. In some places, there simply IS no bus.

[Xahm]

I'm grateful for all the responses, especially those who gave ways they promote independence in their children. My older two are 4 and almost six and I love giving them opportunities to feel independent and accomplished. It's easy at these ages because small things, like walking three doors down to a friend's house or going up to order their own I've cream, feel huge. I think it's going to be tough from ages 9 to 14 to find things they can authentically do to promote and expand independence, largely because people worry so much when they see kids without adults by their side. 

I'm glad so many of you are able to sacrifice your time to drive teens and young adults around. I'm sure I'll do the same when necessary as much as I can. I maintain, however, that when creating zoning regulations, we should not assume a fleet of stay at home moms but should encourage areas where non drivers, be they young, elderly, disabled, or unable to afford cars, can travel independently.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Another Lynn said:

I grew up semi-rural and car dependent.  My kids are growing up semi-rural and car dependent.  Living in a more dense environment is not and has never been a goal of mine.  I'm not sure how bus riding is a more noble entry into adulthood than car driving.  (It's not.)  

It has nothing to do with "noble": to drive a car, the teen has to be  at least 16, has to have learned to drive, has to have access to a vehicle. This sets barriers in terms of age and finances which do not exist for riding a bus. 

[Bluegoat]

59 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Although I can see the thought process of the dependence on a driver to get places influencing the extended adolecence, I don’t really think that’s the case.  

I currently live in a neighborhood built in the 60s.  The only things walkable are the school, which was by design, a bank, which wasn’t built till the 80s, and a gas station.  Certainly not ball practices or the other things you mention. 

BUT, even though the school is walkable, kids are incredibly restricted because the administration doesn’t want the kids walking across the parking lot without a parent.  Since they have to cross the lot to get to the building, parents have to walk them.  And most drive them. 

I think the extending of adolecence is happening in other ways.  Responsibilities are being removed from kids.  When my oldest was in high school, I was watching a soccer game and mentioned something about DD having done a load of laundry before the game.  The mom looked at me in complete shock.  She could not believe my 15 yr old did her own laundry.  

My oldest is 22 now.  She is living in an apartment with 2 roommates.  One roommate was in a small car wreck.  She was fine but of course her mom came to take her home and while her mom was there, DD and her 24 yr old roommate and roommates mom were discussing car accidents and insurance and so on.  And DD mentioned that she paid her own and again, the other parent was shocked that DD pays her own insurance. The 24 yr old is a college graduate and works full time, but her parents pay her car insurance and find it weird that my DD has to pay her own. 

Sports teams are starting to require that parents stay rather than dropping off their kids,  laws keep extending the age to get a license, the paper routes that kids used to do on their bikes are now being done by adults who can drive, many would not dream of having a 12 or 13 yr babysit their baby for a couple hours, fast food places start hiring only those under the age of 18, and on and on and on.  These are the things I think are really contributing to the extending of adolecence  

 

 

 

So, I don't think you are wrong about these things, but I do think they are tied into the mentality of some of the building and planning decisions that are made, in a circular kind of way.  Like - how is it that you build a community of a hundred or so homes in the middle of no-where with no thought to how people living there will get around?  Presumably there will be kids, seniors, people with disabilities, etc, people who want to pick up a carton of milk or would like a place like a playground where they can hang out with kid friends... Even adults might like a road you can ride a bike on to get someplace.

It's like, increasing restrictions on kids means we have low expectations of housing and don't complain when the infrastructure is inadequate. And on the other hand, seeing kids around less tends to make people feel like they are less able to be around on their own.

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, xahm said:

I maintain, however, that when creating zoning regulations, we should not assume a fleet of stay at home moms but should encourage areas where non drivers, be they young, elderly, disabled, or unable to afford cars, can travel independently.

Yes!

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

Cars are the assumed mode of transportation here. There is little to no reliable mass transit.

I don't buy the premise at all. It seems almost ludicrous to me to try to correlate something as complicated as prolonged adolescence with lack of mass transit or walkability. It's the simplicity of the argument in the face of what is apparently a complex problem that seems so very wrong to me. (And I used "apparently" not because I don't think the problem of prolonged adolescence is real; I use it because I personally have never met anyone who I believe has that problem.)

Using mass transit isn't rocket science. Any reasonably intelligent mid-teen should be able to figure it out relatively easily, especially if said teen has the benefit of a smart phone (most transit systems have apps nowadays). My boys were raised w/o access to mass transit. They had a small amount of experience with subways and bus systems in our travels, but in general DH and I aren't fond of large cities, so those didn't make our travel plans much. DS22 did study abroad in Europe when he was 19. It was his first non-Canada international travel experience. With the exception of a bit of confusion in the Munich train station (where apparently a couple of German college girls were more than happy to help) he had zero problems dealing with planes, trains and buses. I do not think he's exceptional for being able to do that. I could give many more real life, personally known to me examples, but really -- It. Is. Not. Hard.

I could make an alternating premise that kids who don't have reliable mass transit are likely to be more independent, because they have to be much more creative in finding ways to get where they need to be. Would that be an accurate premise? Probably not. But probably no less accurate than the original, either. 

 

I m kind of surprised.  

I hear people here and elsewhere all the time talking about things with regard to their kids that I find really infantilizing.  And young people used to do all kinds of things quite successfully that now, we think of as difficult for someone even in their 20s - because, you know, they aren't mature yet.  

[Carrie12345]

17 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Huh? I don't understand the bolded. By definition, a young person who has to rely on mom for transportation cannot have the same level of independence as a person who can take care of his own transportation needs, as he is dependent on the adult to drive him. 

Needing a driver as an actual adolescent doesn't equate to getting an EXTENDED adolescence.

I wasn't eligible for a license until 17. I didn't get my own vehicle until I was close to 19.  When my car died and I was living on my own in an area with semi-decent public transportation (at 19), I got the bus schedule and got on it to get to work.  It didn't necessitate years of practice.  (And that was pre-"Google it.")

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Needing a driver as an actual adolescent doesn't equate to getting an EXTENDED adolescence.

I never said that. I merely commented that being dependent on an adult driver means the teen is not independent, as the poster to whom I responded claimed.

[Joker]

The first time I used public transportation was last year y'all and I'm in my 40s. It didn't stop me from having my own apartment at 18 or moving across the country by myself at 20. I did what my kids do now before I could drive, which is get rides from friends and such. I didn't have a stay home parent like my kids do but I still have them mostly figure out their own rides. 

Also, I was one who had parents who bought their kids new cars at 16 and paid for everything as long as we were in school. I'm the only one who didn't go to college so started paying my own way at 18 but all of us turned out well and independent.

[marbel]

Regarding chores, yard work, etc.   I think many high school kids are so busy with APs, mandatory public service hours, extracurriculars (needed to look good on college applications, etc), sports (for some, that is the ticket to college) that there is no time for chores.   My kids were homeschooled through high school so we didn't deal with that, but I know a lot of people who do. Now with my kids in college but living at home, I will excuse them from house/yard duties at times because it's more important to me that they do well on their finals/term papers than do dishes. 

However, they know how to do those things, and they understand that when they are on their own, they'll have to deal with all that stuff.