UPDATE: Hard Work means nothing?

[Plagefille]

UPDATE:

You are were all right and I was an idiot for not listening to you. I feel like it is time to cut ties with this theater group, but my girls don't want to. It will be hard, but it is probably time. 

There is a long story update in the last post.

 

Original:

In your experience, does hard work and following all the rules get you anything? In jobs, sports, theater, dance? For your kids?

 

My kids seem to never get the parts or make the team, etc. even though they never miss practices, very rarely a few minutes late, work very hard, practice at home, etc.

 

For example: My girls have been a part of a children's Musical theater group for 4 1/2 years, about to do their 7th play. We were there since they started, in their back yard! They have never missed a practice and only been late once (like 7 mins, carpools fault). That always have all their lines and song memorized before the first rehearsal and they learn and remember choreography well. All their paperwork is filled out perfectly on time and I help back stage. My older DD is always very well behaved and works hard. My younger DD works very hard, but occasionally gets crazy with the other kids. The directors are always telling me how they great because they always know all their parts and they are always loud enough to hear. The director and audience members are always commentimg on how talented my youngest is.

 

Older DD is a decent singer and good actress. Younger DD is a good singer and great actress. Both project very well. They both take dance and voice lessons.

 

There are usually 25-45 kids per play. Most play everyone gets at least 1 line, some plays there are a few who get no lines.

 

My older DD just got a part with no lines and no singing at all. She is a dancer. It is the 3rd time she has had no lines. The most she has ever had is like 5-6. I think she has had like 20 lines and solos total! She is soooooo discouraged. She will be 13 in a few months, and she is the only one her age, that has done more than one play, that hasn't been a lead.(I know because I am on the board in charge of publicly and programs).

 

My younger daughter has faired a little better. She has always had a least one line. But her line and solo count is not much higher than her sisters'.

 

I watched thier audition, through the window, and they both did really well. Their singing was not their best, but good.

 

Now one has zero lines and in has 1 solo line. We are so discouraged. They have nothing to practice to make them excited to do the play. One doesn't even sing any songs with the chorus. The other does but already know them all because it's their favorite Musical.

 

I have no desire to work on posters or programs. I just want us all to quit! Practices don't even start for a couple of weeks. I feel like this keeps happening to us in all their activities. I have always tried to teach them the importance of hard work and now I am wondering if I am just setting them up for disappointment their whole lives. I want to rip down the stupid poster in our school room that says "Talent is the Result of Hard Work."

 

I thought maybe they want to get rid of me, but they keep giving me more assignments and responsibilities.

 

ETA: DDs love performing. Don't want to quit performing, but our really upset about feeling like nothing they do is good enough

 

UPDATE: a year and a half later

You are were all right and I was an idiot for not listening to you. I feel like it is time to cut ties with this theater group, but my girls don't want to. It will be hard, but it is probably time. 

There is a long story update in the last post.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Plagefille

[mathmarm]

That does sound discouraging. It does sound like you guys have remained diligent over the years and that alone should be applauded.

 

Is there a pattern to those who DO get the "lead" roles?

Are the leads being assigned fairly?

 

I can't tell. Is it normal for a troupe that is 30-40 kids big to have only seven shows in 4+ years? That means 1-2 productions per year...

 

How often is each show performed once the cast and sets are ready?

[Guinevere]

I'm sorry. I, unfortunately, wonder this all the time. Are there new rules now? Do I even want to learn them? Ugh.

[bolt.]

Diligence is only one component of success.

 

Diligence certainly does not always result in "talent" -- how could it? The definition and concept of "talent" is comes from the unequal distribution of natural aplitudes in a population.

 

In performing arts this is even more true. In performing arts, talent can be augmented by diligence, but rarely can it be simply created by willpower. Plus things like charisma, luck, looks, and suitability (in the context of a director who has a vision for a production) play a huge role!

 

I don't know why you would teach children who are involved in performing arts that success is the natural reward of effort. It's clearly nowhere near the truth. Dramatic roles are not cast according to effort, reliability, loyalty, punctuality, or in any sense "paying dues". Those things are minimally mandatory in order not to be disqualified, but they aren't going to bring grand rewards.

 

You sound burnt out, and I'm sure that's why you are thinking this way, as if your family's commitment should have earned something in the way of better parts over the years -- but it's not logical. It's not an earned-rewards system.

[SKL]

I'm sure this is specific to the group, but I've seen ones where certain kids get preference all the time, which leaves less opportunity for the others.

 

My kids are in a class (school) with a set of twins, whose grandma is the music director / organist and their grandpa is the band teacher.  Well guess who gets the speaking roles and solos.  :P  One of those twins was the lead in the last 2 musicals, and one had a big fuss made over his solo during the band concert.  It's a bummer that they are in my kids' class, meaning my kids will probably never have the opportunity.  One of my kids has a lovely voice; the other is a confident and enthusiastic actress with dance / acrobatic skills, both play pretty well on their instruments.  I'm not saying it doesn't matter - they do have some chances to get up there - but the preferential treatment isn't going away.

 

In my kids' extracurriculars, it usually seems more fair.  My eldest was selected for the performance team in gymnastics, earlier than I expected.  Granted, the gym owner does put his kid up there always, but she has the skills and the personality for it, and all the girls get their chance to shine.  The theater folks don't seem to play favorites that I can see (though we aren't that deep into theater).  The swim coach let my eldest have every reasonable chance as she was the 2nd fastest swimmer when she was on team.  The soccer coach mixed it up so everyone got to try the positions they wanted to try.  So I'd say that in general, I don't see unreasonableness.  My youngest is not so athletic and doesn't like the stage, so naturally she hasn't been out front as much, but that is fair given her personality.

[Plagefille]

Yes, the same kids gets leads over and over again. They have mixed it up a little bit, but hasn't worked out for mine. There used to be one play and year, now two.

 

The thing with my younger DD is I get people coming up weeks later talking about how amazing she was. She stands out even in her small roles. It leaves me so confused.

 

Maybe I am upset too because the directors are always complaining about the kids not knowing their parts, missing or being late, and speaking too quietly. And I am sitting their thinking, my girls don't have any of those problems.

 

I got the quote about hard work from that stupid mindset book, I think. But my son has the same problem in sports. Until he had different coaches last year.

[mathmarm]

OP, is there another troupe of junior performers that your family could join?

It might be time to take your energy and talents elsewhere BUT maybe try and change things where you are first if you and the kids are bonded to the current group.

 

Perhaps cast 2-3 kids per lead role? Have them trade off in shows or if there aren't many shows, they can trade,out between scenes?

 

I don't know how theater works so maybe,that's not feasible.

 

I would change the poster, but only because I feel that "Talent is honed only through HARD WORK" is more accurate and motivational.

[goldberry]

When DD was younger and wanted to join a local theater group, I was specifically warned off.  Supposedly no one outside of a certain little circle ever got any decent parts, year after year.  The rest of the kids were just set workers and backup basically to provide this small group an opportunity to perform.  No thanks.  So apparently it's not uncommon.

[SKL]

Do your daughters go up and ask for bigger roles?  Perhaps that would make a difference?

 

But yeah, if they have favorites and aren't ashamed to show it, it seems unlikely to change.  Might want to look elsewhere for your kids' opportunity.

[Catwoman]

Yes, the same kids gets leads over and over again. They have mixed it up a little bit, but hasn't worked out for mine. There used to be one play and year, now two.

 

The thing with my younger DD is I get people coming up weeks later talking about how amazing she was. She stands out even in her small roles. It leaves me so confused.

 

Maybe I am upset too because the directors are always complaining about the kids not knowing their parts, missing or being late, and speaking too quietly. And I am sitting their thinking, my girls don't have any of those problems.

 

I got the quote about hard work from that stupid mindset book, I think. But my son has the same problem in sports. Until he had different coaches last year.

I think you should approach the directors with your concerns and be as frank with them as you've been with us about the unfairness.

[fairfarmhand]

I am so sorry. I try so hard as a director to NOT do this.

 

It helps that I keep my troupe small. But if you've looked through any young people's play book, you'll notice that 2-3 characters have almost ALL of the dialog. I hated that when I was a teen. You'd spend hours at rehearsal just to spout 3 lines.

 

So for my group, we lean toward sketch comedy. Our plays are not brilliant with dancers, and music and huge productions. But they're solid productions with the full participation of the whole cast.

 

Some productions are "favoritized." It totally stinks.

 

By the way, I have many talented kids. Some walk in with the confidence and natural skill to do well onstage without tons of coaching. And yet, I;ve had SO many students blossom over time. And one of the most talented kids did not have the work ethic to do well. This kid had lots of natural skill but didn't have the discipline to do what it took to be amazing.

 

I'm sorry for your kids.

 

 

[bolt.]

Yes, the same kids gets leads over and over again. They have mixed it up a little bit, but hasn't worked out for mine. There used to be one play and year, now two.

 

The thing with my younger DD is I get people coming up weeks later talking about how amazing she was. She stands out even in her small roles. It leaves me so confused.

 

Maybe I am upset too because the directors are always complaining about the kids not knowing their parts, missing or being late, and speaking too quietly. And I am sitting their thinking, my girls don't have any of those problems.

 

I got the quote about hard work from that stupid mindset book, I think. But my son has the same problem in sports. Until he had different coaches last year.

Is it possible that you are hearing people tell you your child shines as an empirical evaluation of her skill, when the speakers might mean it as more of a socially appropriate complement? (I always compliment small performers simply out of kindness, especially if I know they were trying very hard.)

[regentrude]

I am sorry your kids have this experience.

Hard work is necessary, but no guarantee for success. Arts is especially tricky because so much depends on innate talent.

One can approach the issue from different angles, and different directors handle it differently.

 

We have a local theater group of mostly homeschooled students that delivers outstanding, professional level quality. Their shows sell out every single time. Everybody works very hard, but the biggest roles go to the most talented performers in a very rigorous audition process. The kids who get the leads can sing and dance like professionals. Hard work alone will not be sufficient to make it to that level. The director has high standards, and the result is fantastic.

 

Then there is also a college theatre group where the director wants to involve as many students as possible, irrespective of how talented they are (well, they have auditions, but they are not rigorous). As a consequence, their performances have barely any audience attending because they are so bad that it's painful to watch. So the whole inclusion despite lack of talent backfires. The kids may have fun, but are performing for an empty house. 

 

 

ETA: I completely disagree with your "Talent is the result of hard work" poster. That is just nonsense. No amount of hard work is going to make up for a lack of talent.  Talent is what you're born with; a combination of talent and hard work leads to success.

 

Edited July 17, 2017 by regentrude

[GailV]

Most places we've been have a bit of an "in" crowd, even if it's unintended.

 

Sometimes some kids simply have the correct look for a particular part.  Sometimes they just happen to fit the costumes.  

 

I figure that it's the nature of performing arts.  Dd is going to be going to college for acting.  She knows she will get dinged at a lot of college auditions simply because various programs don't need another girl with her look/character.  (Side note:  one of her friends who is a year older will be headed out to a very prestigious acting school -- not that he's a better actor than dd, but he has a look that is very popular in the industry right now. Dd is very concerned that she won't get an offer from this school next year because they don't need her type.)  

 

One friend who is already in college for acting noted that the kids who always got the leads when they were in high school seem to have the most trouble transitioning to the college stage.  They freeze up, afraid to take chances.  They were always the star, and now they're just one of the crowd.

 

And, you know what?  Once these kids graduate from college, they'll be going to audition after audition after audition where they get dinged, even though they might be incredibly talented and look almost identical to the person who landed the role ... just because that's what the auditors decide.  Performing arts are all about rejection.  They're about who knows of you.  They're about weird things happening because of random chance and luck.  They're also about continuously working on improving performance skills so when that lucky break occurs, you're ready.

[ErinE]

Have you or your older child talked to the director?

 

"We've been with troupe XX years and my child has really enjoyed it, but wants to try for a more prominent role. What can she do to improve? Are there any roles that would be a good fit for her skills?"

 

There might be nothing to improve, but it puts the director on notice that your child wants more. Sometimes there's a tendency for directors to get comfortable with the usual leads and not look beyond them. I'd have my older child talk to the director with me as support and also mention my younger child's desire to stretch.

 

I wouldn't mention unfairness. From what you've described it does sound unfair, but I suspect, given the size of the group, the director hears from many parents that the allocation of lines is unfair.

[ErinE]

And, you know what?  Once these kids graduate from college, they'll be going to audition after audition after audition where they get dinged, even though they might be incredibly talented and look almost identical to the person who landed the role ... just because that's what the auditors decide.  Performing arts are all about rejection.  They're about who knows of you.  They're about weird things happening because of random chance and luck.  They're also about continuously working on improving performance skills so when that lucky break occurs, you're ready.

 

This.

 

I was a professional dancer, but it took several auditions. I talked to a director on what she thought I could do to improve and she told me. She also told me I should try for another group (not the one she led) which broke my heart as I admired her so much, but she was right. It was a better fit for me and my dance style. There were truly amazing dancers who didn't make it for reasons I don't understand. I am very grateful to have had the opportunity I did because so much of it depended on circumstances I couldn't control.

[MommyLiberty5013]

We had a huge drama club at my public HS. We did a play in the fall, senior-directed one-acts in the winter, and a musical in the spring. In the musical, all the leads were double cast. We performed Thursday -Saturday nights, and a Sunday matinee. Each lead got two performances. If this isn't already happening, maybe they could double cast the leads. Also, our director wised up and only held rehearsals by segments. For example, if we were doing two scenes that had only leads - no one else had to show up that night and stupidly sit around. Full cast scenes got full cast rehearsals.

 

It really cut down on time wasted.

 

My BIL and SIL have a similar situation as yours in their home town. Plays for kids don't have a lot of lines for everyone.

 

If your girls are good, maybe it is time they spread their wings and went elsewhere. Quitting now that they have been cast? I don't know only from that burning bridges angle, clearly they can fill the roles if your kids leave. If you do, there is no going back though if something else does not pan out.

Edited July 17, 2017 by MommyLiberty5013

[Word Nerd]

When I was a senior and thought I may finally get a leading role, the director (our principal) cast his daughter, a freshman who had never even been in a play before, in the top role. It was so blatantly, shamelessy unfair to everyone else in the cast that I was more amused than upset. I wouldn't say hard work never pays off, but in some contexts that isn't much of a deciding factor.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Word Nerd

[Joyofsixreboot]

It is disappointing. We have made a viewpoint change to enjoying the friendships, team ethos and general experience.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Plagefille]

Is it possible that you are hearing people tell you your child shines as an empirical evaluation of her skill, when the speakers might mean it as more of a socially appropriate complement? (I always compliment small performers simply out of kindness, especially if I know they were trying very hard.)

I have wondered this sometimes... She also memories easily so she might just stand out because she knows all the parts and is confident. But her dance and voice teacher and even the director think she could do this professionally. Maybe just bad timing for her look, age and the plays.

 

My older daughter, however, has no shot as a professional. But would like to teach dance one day. I was told by the music director, who doesn't get much say in casting, that she was cast as a dancer before auditions this time. So they probably didn't even notice she was one of the best when they read lines this time.

[Plagefille]

Thanks for everyone's comments. They were all very helpful. And I know hard work and diligence don't equal talent, but I want my kids to think it's important. Yet it seems to mean nothing in our recent experience. Many of the leads show us late and never know their lines, yet they keep getting cast.

[Plagefille]

We had a huge drama club at my public HS. We did a play in the fall, senior-directed one-acts in the winter, and a musical in the spring. In the musical, all the leads were double cast. We performed Thursday -Saturday nights, and a Sunday matinee. Each lead got two performances. If this isn't already happening, maybe they could double cast the leads. Also, our director wised up and only held rehearsals by segments. For example, if we were doing two scenes that had only leads - no one else had to show up that night and stupidly sit around. Full cast scenes got full cast rehearsals.

 

It really cut down on time wasted.

 

My BIL and SIL have a similar situation as yours in their home town. Plays for kids don't have a lot of lines for everyone.

 

If your girls are good, maybe it is time they spread their wings and went elsewhere. Quitting now that they have been cast? I don't know only from that burning bridges angle, clearly they can fill the roles if your kids leave. If you do, there is no going back though if something else does not pan out.

You're right about the burning bridges. We will probably not quit because it's just not who we are.

 

Also, instead of double casting they do two totally different sessions. One starts next week and performs before we even start next month. We do tend to end up in the sessions with the favorites and more talented kids. But often we can't switch because of other conflicts in our schedule.

[gardenmom5]

yes and no.  I have one . . . .

stickler for the rules, works very hard, extremely self-disciplined - also always tries to make things fun for other people (which is one reason I think things have been easy for her) . . . is  going through life walking on rose petals. it's .  . unreal.  when they were little and we'd play monopoly - this kid *always, always, always* landed on free parking when there was money in the pot. l ALWAYS. "oh, do you need some money, I'll loan you some. . . "

when she was at college (on the other side of the country)- someone in the town loaned her an extra car they had so she could get around more easily.

when she was in grad school -she was asked to house sit a doctor's 4000+sqft house - with regular maid and yard service.  for 18months.  rent free. 

 

in many ways she has had a charmed life.  (I actually worry about what life might throw at her (call me paranoid) - as everyone gets at least something)

[regentrude]

 Many of the leads show us late and never know their lines, yet they keep getting cast.

 

This is indeed a problem. It is unprofessional that the director lets them get away with it. I would start  looking for a different group since this director does not seem to cast based on merit. And I would bring this up directly, but unrelated to your own kids.

[Annie G]

We were very involved with a theater group for about 7 years. I'm totally cool with the most talented kids getting considered for the leads. But what I didn't like was favoritism shown - they insisted that if a kid had three conflicts (meaning they would miss three rehearsals) they would not be eligible for a lead.  Or if they had ONE conflict with a performance (even a school day show) they would not be able to be cast as a lead. But I saw time and again that the rule was broken for certain talented kids. Yup, they were talented, but so were the other 95 kids who auditioned.   

 

I had to laugh though- dh and I were administrative assistants for this group and people whispered that our kids got preferential treatment.  True, our kids were never cut from a show but they each got exactly one lead the entire time, and both were not true leads, just better parts than their usual chorus type roles.  Preferential treatment? Not our kids!

 

 

 

 

[MedicMom]

Thanks for everyone's comments. They were all very helpful. And I know hard work and diligence don't equal talent, but I want my kids to think it's important. Yet it seems to mean nothing in our recent experience. Many of the leads show us late and never know their lines, yet they keep getting cast.

Theater is a totally different world. Hard work really doesn't mean much in casting. It's all about talent, look, who fits the costume, and, yes, favorites. I spent years in both children's and adult community theater, and the same people were always cast. Some were very talented. Others...not so much. it was favoritism plain and simple. I saw it over and over, different groups and different directors, but the same thing.

[EmilyGF]

Theater is a totally different world. Hard work really doesn't mean much in casting. It's all about talent, look, who fits the costume, and, yes, favorites. I spent years in both children's and adult community theater, and the same people were always cast. Some were very talented. Others...not so much. it was favoritism plain and simple. I saw it over and over, different groups and different directors, but the same thing.

Yes. I saw this in youth theater a lot. There were really good people, and there were people who just got along with the director for whatever reason - who knew?

 

For me, youth theater was fun but there were never many parts I could get because I was just too stinkin' tall - something that had nothing to do with anything but genetics. But I found areas I could excel in later - one was singing and that was sparked by youth theater. And no one in choir cared that I was 6'. And the choir people were more to my liking than the theater people anyways. :-P

 

Emily

[Peaceseeker]

I saw a sign that read 'Hard work trumps talent when talent doesn't work hard' at a ballet school once.

 

Not sure it is necessarily true, but I guess it was meant to be motivational.

Edited July 18, 2017 by CaliforniaDreaming

[TravelingChris]

I would definitely rip down the poster of Talent is the Result of Hard Work because that is simply not true.  Talent is basically inborn and skill is based on both talent and lots of practice.  Now about your children- that group may very well be the wrong theater group from them.  Lots of other posters have addressed that.  

 

 

 

[Melissa B]

My kids left the children's theater because it was ALL about who you knew. The casting was truly a joke. Have you tried a community theater? They will usually cast children for at least a couple of plays each year. My theater dd is very active in our mostly adult, yet very welcoming of committed children, community theaters.

[TravelingChris]

Oh and you ask if hard work gets you anything-  well the fact that my dd volunteered to be the secretary at her Home Owners Association and then went to a job fair and talked to an HR guy who was very impressed by that and said he would probably have a job for her based on her hard work in college and being able to take notes at cantankerous HOA meetings.  She is going to be a  contract tech writer and is just waiting for her security job clearance.  My son gets promotions because he works both very hard and very smartly.  Youngest dd got accepted into her college even though she had not done their extra requirements for homeschoolers due to a great interview and hard work in her college chemistry class in Dual enrollment. So what is needed in success is both natural abilities and hard work.  

[Pen]

Sure. Sometimes. It isn't the whole thing, but is part of it.  

 

For example, my ds started out in XC track not feeling like he'd be able to run a whole 5km or whatever the starting length was. With hard work and practice he worked up to being a top 10 finisher in a Northwest competition and for following rules, being good about practices and being a good sport etc. as well as some good races, got an MVP award for his team.  Where one is in crossing the finish line tends to be pretty clear, and has many aspects to including body type. But hard work is part of it. The MVP part is more touchy-feelly. 

 

Both he and a friend made multiple submissions to Stone Soup and both got some publications as well as some rejections.  Both at least one rejection prior to an acceptance. The friend also did a bunch of theater for around 9 years and landed a (very small, I think) role in a Shakespeare in the park production this summer. 

 

But sometimes it also takes speaking up about what is wanted and seeing what is needed for that (if it is possible to accomplish it). Some groups just aren't a good fit.  

 

 

[forty-two]

I think hard work counts for a lot - especially with respect to forming character. Even when the outward results of your hard work aren't appreciated commensurate with the effort you put in (and so may or may not not be the best area in which to devote your hard work), the character-building inner results are lasting and worthwhile.

 

Wrt your motivational poster, a related-to-growth-mindset researcher who studies grit, Angela Duckworth, argues that effort counts twice. Her thesis is that talent * effort = skill and skill * effort = achievement, so achievement = talent * effort * effort. Aka, talent counts, but effort counts twice.

Edited July 18, 2017 by forty-two

[amy g.]

yes and no. I have one . . . .

stickler for the rules, works very hard, extremely self-disciplined - also always tries to make things fun for other people (which is one reason I think things have been easy for her) . . . is going through life walking on rose petals. it's . . unreal. when they were little and we'd play monopoly - this kid *always, always, always* landed on free parking when there was money in the pot. l ALWAYS. "oh, do you need some money, I'll loan you some. . . "

when she was at college (on the other side of the country)- someone in the town loaned her an extra car they had so she could get around more easily.

when she was in grad school -she was asked to house sit a doctor's 4000+sqft house - with regular maid and yard service. for 18months. rent free.

 

in many ways she has had a charmed life. (I actually worry about what life might throw at her (call me paranoid) - as everyone gets at least something)

I have your kid's twin. Her friend's parents want to pay for her meal card at school next year, and as soon as they finish their last final in December, they are treating the girls to a trip it Hawaii....not even for the first time.

 

Then they thank us for being so generous and sharing Dd with them.

 

On the other hand, Dd has a take home quiz tomorrow. I asked if she was going to have Dh look over it before she turned it in. She said she would ask her professor if that was okay with him. Her sister said that her classmates will be using google to answer the questions on a take home quiz. She just repeated that she would ask her professor what was allowed and that is what she will do.

 

Her hard work does get rewarded. I often say she was born under a lucky star.

[gardenmom5]

I have your kid's twin. Her friend's parents want to pay for her meal card at school next year, and as soon as they finish their last final in December, they are treating the girls to a trip it Hawaii....not even for the first time.

 

Then they thank us for being so generous and sharing Dd with them.

 

On the other hand, Dd has a take home quiz tomorrow. I asked if she was going to have Dh look over it before she turned it in. She said she would ask her professor if that was okay with him. Her sister said that her classmates will be using google to answer the questions on a take home quiz. She just repeated that she would ask her professor what was allowed and that is what she will do.

 

Her hard work does get rewarded. I often say she was born under a lucky star.

 

they can have their lucky star . . life's hard enough.

 

dudeling get's upset if I even suggest looking up the meaning of a word . . . he insists it's cheating.

 

when he'd be sick, and we wanted to have a special prayer for him to get well - he'd get upset it was cheating.  No dear, anyone can do this . . . I think we've finally gotten through to him. . . .

I remember being that way - but I think it was one of my own aspie traits.

[Plink]

My older daughter, however, has no shot as a professional. But would like to teach dance one day. I was told by the music director, who doesn't get much say in casting, that she was cast as a dancer before auditions this time. 

 

 

Older DD is a decent singer and good actress. Younger DD is a good singer and great actress. 

 

 

My older DD just got a part with no lines and no singing at all. She is a dancer. It is the 3rd time she has had no lines. 

 

My younger daughter has faired a little better. She has always had a least one line. 

 

Since the director decided before auditions, I'd assume that she has cast your kids based on her years of knowledge of their strengths.  It sounds like your older DD truly shines as a dancer, and she has aspirations to follow this path.  If that is the best way she can benefit the group, giving her the time to focus on her talent and build that resume makes sense.  

Edited July 18, 2017 by Plink

[Plagefille]

For those that asked... It is not the most talented who gets parts, although the VERY talented do get good parts, some of those that get good parts are pretty awful singers. Boys always have priority. He wants boys to keep coming so they get as many good parts as possible. Parts that could go to either gender always go to a boy first before more talented girls.

 

For example: My DS has done only one play and he got a pretty big part, even though he didn't want a big part.He was actually pretty bad, you couldn't hear him and he was only 7! He even had a whole song he had to sing... And he sings monotone. They ended up doing the song Acapella because he sounded so bad. That one play he had more parts then older DD has had altogether.

 

You guys are right, I can't believe I haven't said anything or done something different.

Edited July 18, 2017 by plagefille

[Pen]

Excellent, you can use your own ds as a contrasting example in explaining sense of unfairness and discouragement that your girls are feeling.  Sounds like the directors should be asking who even wants what sort of parts before assigning big parts to kids who don't even want them.

[Plagefille]

Well, I sent the director am email about my girls. With the help of my DH, the email was very good and tactful. I received a response and learned that hard work, diligence, memorizing, etc doesn't mean anything to him when casting. (Which explains how kids who don't even bother to memorize audition pieces are still getting leads).

 

I was told that getting bad roles is just the nature of theater. He also said that my older DD was too tall for a kid part but not tall enough for an adult part, so she couldn't be cast for any larger roles. Which means he did not even look at her because she is the third tallest girl in the cast.

 

As for the younger DD, he said that she is sill young and older kids get priority for leads.

 

I think he still thinks of them as the shy little girls he met 4 years ago.

 

How I wish they liked swimming, or track, or math competitions.

Edited July 20, 2017 by plagefille

[mathnerd]

Well, I sent the director am email about my girls. With the help of my DH, the email was very good and tactful. I received a response and learned that hard work, diligence, memorizing, etc doesn't mean anything to him when casting. (Which explains how kids who don't even bother to memorize audition pieces are still getting leads).

 

I was told that getting bad roles is just the nature of theater. He also said that my older DD was too tall for a kid part but not tall enough for an adult part, so she couldn't be cast for any larger roles. Which means he did not even look at her because she is the third tallest girl in the cast.

 

As for the younger DD, he said that she is sill young and older kids get priority for leads.

 

I think he still thinks of them as the shy little girls he met 4 years ago.

 

How I wish they liked swimming, or track, or math competitions.

I think that you should start looking around for other opportunities. The director has told you that he does not think that your girls will be able to shine in this setting for the near future because of his reasons. He also does not seem to be bothered by the fact that your girls are diligent and talented and are unable to perform anything worth their time. We have been in such situations before and decided to cut ties tactfully and move on to other venues. My DS who was bonded to the teachers was in tears and refused the move. It felt like I was forcing him to move against his wishes. He even said that it was OK if he never got a chance for a big part ever in his life because his friends and much adored teachers were there. Long story, short - I found a better environment, took him in for an audition, the new director talked to him and within the first few minutes he loved how knowledgeable she was, how patiently she talked to him and how the kids in that group were very talented and enthusiastic. He adores the new setting now. He is happy and wishes that he had not wasted time in the older group now. 

 

So, good things can come out of this if you don't take this disappointment at face value. Maybe it is time for your children to shine and this is not the right fit for them and you are being shown that they will not have bigger there chances anytime soon.

[kroe1]

In your experience, does hard work and following all the rules get you anything? In jobs, sports, theater, dance? For your kids?

 

My kids seem to never get the parts or make the team, etc. even though they never miss practices, very rarely a few minutes late, work very hard, practice at home, etc.

 

For example: My girls have been a part of a children's Musical theater group for 4 1/2 years, about to do their 7th play. We were there since they started, in their back yard! They have never missed a practice and only been late once (like 7 mins, carpools fault). That always have all their lines and song memorized before the first rehearsal and they learn and remember choreography well. All their paperwork is filled out perfectly on time and I help back stage. My older DD is always very well behaved and works hard. My younger DD works very hard, but occasionally gets crazy with the other kids. The directors are always telling me how they great because they always know all their parts and they are always loud enough to hear. The director and audience members are always commentimg on how talented my youngest is.

 

Older DD is a decent singer and good actress. Younger DD is a good singer and great actress. Both project very well. They both take dance and voice lessons.

 

There are usually 25-45 kids per play. Most play everyone gets at least 1 line, some plays there are a few who get no lines.

 

My older DD just got a part with no lines and no singing at all. She is a dancer. It is the 3rd time she has had no lines. The most she has ever had is like 5-6. I think she has had like 20 lines and solos total! She is soooooo discouraged. She will be 13 in a few months, and she is the only one her age, that has done more than one play, that hasn't been a lead.(I know because I am on the board in charge of publicly and programs).

 

My younger daughter has faired a little better. She has always had a least one line. But her line and solo count is not much higher than her sisters'.

 

I watched thier audition, through the window, and they both did really well. Their singing was not their best, but good.

 

Now one has zero lines and in has 1 solo line. We are so discouraged. They have nothing to practice to make them excited to do the play. One doesn't even sing any songs with the chorus. The other does but already know them all because it's their favorite Musical.

 

I have no desire to work on posters or programs. I just want us all to quit! Practices don't even start for a couple of weeks. I feel like this keeps happening to us in all their activities. I have always tried to teach them the importance of hard work and now I am wondering if I am just setting them up for disappointment their whole lives. I want to rip down the stupid poster in our school room that says "Talent is the Result of Hard Work."

 

I thought maybe they want to get rid of me, but they keep giving me more assignments and responsibilities.

 

ETA: DDs love performing. Don't want to quit performing, but our really upset about feeling like nothing they do is good enough

Sorry, I did not read the other posts. Performing arts is frustrating for parents, especially theater. There is that magical moment when a child just gets it. They transform from the kid who is a good actor to the kid no one can tell is acting at all. That kid gets every part to the frustration of all the other kids. I would suggest private lessons in acting to help.

[mom2scouts]

I like the quote that says "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." Of course opportunity may not show up, but if it does, the hard worker will be ready.  Maybe in your case, you need to go looking for better opportunities.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

In my experience of life, hard work has paid off many, many times.  

 

But you also have to be willing to look for opportunities.  This drama club does not sound like the right place for your girls.  

 

I was never a particularly impressive athlete in the let's-compare-stats kind of way.  But I was a crazy hard worker.  I remember entering high school and trying to think of a sport that could actually work for me.  I'd played softball in jr high and had been exactly average at best.  So I looked at teams that were actively recruiting, rather than holding try-outs.  I stumbled into cross country and long distance track running.  Those were perfect fits for me.  The monotony of long distance keeps a lot of people away, and so I could shine in a way I wouldn't in any other sport.  I then started weight lifting, and again, because few girls were doing it at the time, I won every competition I entered for high school powerlifting.  It's not hard to win in a field of 3 competitors... anyway...  I was fit as heck, but I was never going to set any records because talent was lacking.  I was fit enough to be accepted to the Air Force Academy though, which was my dream at the time and ended up opening many doors for me.  

 

Part of success is talent.  Part of it is hard work and diligence.  And part of it is not barking up the wrong tree.  Look elsewhere for your girls' niches.  Maybe another acting group, maybe another activity altogether.   

[fairfarmhand]

I really think you may want to start searching for another acting or performing niche for your girls. It seems that the director has already told you how things are going to be.

 

He has a particular "type" in mind and your kids don't fit that "type."

 

It's sad because if given a chance, your kids might really knock his socks off; but apparently he's already made up his mind.

 

And I would not really want my children to become demoralized and start thinking that their efforts are worthless.

 

I am so sorry.

 

I guess the awful part is that the students who are not committed, but have more raw talent, may get the idea that hard work doesn't matter. So if they try to pursue the arts in the future, they may not have developed certain skills that would really make them amazing. They'll go into a pool of equally talented people and those who work hard will get preference.

[SarahW]

Honestly, from what you said about the director preferring to cast boys in major roles, and his apparent ignorance about the facts about your DDs, I suspect the director is a misogynist.

 

Misogynists don't always have a foaming-at-the-mouth how-dare-a-stupid-woman-speak-to-me! attitude. Many are similar to covert racists. They'll overlook the faults of their preferred group, while finding any faults they can in their unpreferred group. And like racists, they usually don't realize their bigotry, and make overtures and relationships that "prove" they aren't bigots, but when objectively considered, fall into a pattern of reinforcing discrimination. And which don't solve their underlying bigotry anyway.

 

I understand the idea of wanting to support boys involvement in musical theater. But interested boys will be there as long as they are given fair respect, and that respect doesn't involve giving them unearned roles. In fact, I would say putting an unprepared person in a large role ends up being disheartening and discouraging. 

 

Based on the email response you got, I'd definitely be finding a different group. Whether or not you want to finish this last show is something you (and your DDs) should decide. It doesn't sound like their roles are big enough that their absence will be much missed. But it may just come down to logistics - if you change groups, when will the new group start auditions for their Fall program? If the schedules conflict, I'd cut the old group right away. 

[Katy]

IME with community theater, charisma, singing ability, looks, and whether your parents donate to the foundation matter more than diligence.

 

In other areas of life, diligence matters more than talent.

 

 

ETA:  Haven't been involved since I was a kid, and I was one that was usually picked for lead dancer.  I suspect because I was one of the few that had taken jazz and ballet.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Katy

[Plagefille]

I really think you may want to start searching for another acting or performing niche for your girls. It seems that the director has already told you how things are going to be.

 

He has a particular "type" in mind and your kids don't fit that "type."

 

It's sad because if given a chance, your kids might really knock his socks off; but apparently he's already made up his mind.

 

And I would not really want my children to become demoralized and start thinking that their efforts are worthless.

 

I am so sorry.

 

I guess the awful part is that the students who are not committed, but have more raw talent, may get the idea that hard work doesn't matter. So if they try to pursue the arts in the future, they may not have developed certain skills that would really make them amazing. They'll go into a pool of equally talented people and those who work hard will get preference.

After reading the email my DH felt, as you pointed out, that the director has a certain type he looks for my DDs are not it. He didn't say there is anything they could do to increase their changes at getting better parts.

[Pen]

Well, I sent the director am email about my girls. With the help of my DH, the email was very good and tactful. I received a response and learned that hard work, diligence, memorizing, etc doesn't mean anything to him when casting. (Which explains how kids who don't even bother to memorize audition pieces are still getting leads).

 

I was told that getting bad roles is just the nature of theater. He also said that my older DD was too tall for a kid part but not tall enough for an adult part, so she couldn't be cast for any larger roles. Which means he did not even look at her because she is the third tallest girl in the cast.

 

As for the younger DD, he said that she is sill young and older kids get priority for leads.

 

I think he still thinks of them as the shy little girls he met 4 years ago.

 

How I wish they liked swimming, or track, or math competitions.

 

 

Good for you on speaking up!

 

Now it sounds like it is time to find other opportunities for your girls if they wish to have bigger parts. This isn't one where they will be able to shine. If they just enjoy participation in this group with small parts, that is fine, but at least it is clear now, and your girls and you and your DH can make an informed choice.

[Plagefille]

So, confused. The director is now offering for me to be on the casting committee for all future productions. The music director even sent me a text about it saying she thinks it would be great, I would bring a different perspective.

 

What do they mean by this? Are they afraid I am going to quit so they wanted to offer me more? (I did not say anything about quitting in my email.) Or does he think I will see that my kids don't deserve better parts? (Not likely since I can tell we value certain qualities differently.) Or do they really think I would be good at casting?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

So, confused. The director is now offering for me to be on the casting committee for all future productions. The music director even sent me a text about it saying she thinks it would be great, I would bring a different perspective.

 

What do they mean by this? Are they afraid I am going to quit so they wanted to offer me more? (I did not say anything about quitting in my email.) Or does he think I will see that my kids don't deserve better parts? (Not likely since I can tell we value certain qualities differently.) Or do they really think I would be good at casting?

Could be any one or a combination.

 

Based on the conversation you had I personally would be looking for different opportunities.