I just hate the public school

[Guest]

I think some posters on this thread are being intentionally obtuse. Y'all really don't know that discrimination against students (for a long list of reasons) is a federal issue?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Educational_Opportunities_Act_of_1974

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individuals_with_Disabilities_Education_Act

I actually didn't know that.

[lauraw4321]

Janeway, if you emailed anonymously how do you know that they know who you are? Could it be that they don't, think you are out of district, and that's the reason for the response?

[marbel]

I don't understand the point of emailing anonymously.  Why not identify yourself as a resident in the district?  It sounds as if you went into it with an adversarial attitude to start with.  Maybe I'm misreading/misunderstanding.   But then, why not ask for more details on the response?   Just ask more questions.  

Like others, I get it about the need to vent.  Vent away! I too like having a place to complain sometimes.  But the venter shouldn't be surprised when people ask questions too.  I find this story very confusing.  

[Catwoman]

Any updates today, Janeway?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Perhaps all interactions with agencies - school or healthcare or other - should be done by Mr. Janeway? 

[8circles]

We had a related thing happen several years ago in another district when my kids were in PS - the district decided they wanted funding from the city to give their teachers an hour a week of planning time, or something - basically an extra hour after school pay one day a week.  They put up a bond motion or whatever, residents voted, it didn't pass.  So you'd think, no planning hour, right?  Because residents pay for the schools, the schools wanted more money, residents didn't want to allot more money, end of story.

 

Nope.  Instead they started an hour late every Wednesday - teachers came in and were paid, but students couldn't come until an hour later than usual.  It's just so disrespectful.

 

Disrespectful to whom?

[Guest]

Either post useful information or bow out, people. Personal attacks are not welcome.

[Alessandra]

I think OP specifically said she didn't "sue." She said she filed a complaint at a federal level, but there was not court involvement - at least that's my understanding. I'm unclear on to whom she complained, at a federal level, maybe someone else caught that detail.

Oh, you are right! I think someone else had asked about federal involvement in general? So many interesting cases concerning education. Thinking of complaint as a legal term when I responded.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Alessandra

[Butter]

Wow. Poor kids. Did they get to the other school on time? Typically all busses I know get there within 15 minutes of starting time. It would be 30 minutes at least to get to the next closest school.

 

In our district the nearest schools are within less than a mile (elementary) to 2 to 4 miles away (middle).  We have a lot of people in a small area.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Butter

[justasque]

No, he emailed it. And that was it. 

 

I talked with Mr. XXX about your request to enroll your child at XXX and he said that you would have to contact him for approval, which he will not give. Let me

know if there is anything else I can help you with.

 

 

^^^^^^^^that is what the email said^^^^^^

 

I put XXX where ever names were. 

 

I did not even request to enroll him. I asked a question about enrolling for next year. Or more than one question, but I never requested to enroll him. I asked if it was done online (it is for incoming kinders) and what activities were available, such as band and orchestra and theater and such.

 

Sorry the forum is changing my print to small after I copy and paste. I am not sure why it is doing that. And not sure why it changed it back to regular size when I inserted text.

 

Dear <secretary>,

Thank you for getting back to me promptly about the possibility of enrolling my child at School X.  

I am a bit confused, and I"m hoping you can clarify a few things for me so that I can understand our public school options.  As I discussed with Mr. X, I live within the school district, and my child has completed through 7th grade in private education.  We are considering enrolling him in School X next year, for 8th grade.  You stated "I talked with Mr. XXX about your request to enroll your child at XXX and he said the you would have to contact him for approval, which he will not give."  I was under the impression that any child who resides in the school district may enroll in School X; perhaps I am wrong?  Could you explain a little more about the enrollment process, enrollment eligibility, and Mr. XXX's reasons for deciding not to enroll my child?  Also, if my child is not able to attend School X, can you refer me to other appropriate options for his public school enrollment, and/or to someone in the district who can discuss these options with me?   

Thank you so much for your help.  I appreciate your time.

Sincerely,

Janeway

[Janeway]

Well, lots of cases reach the federal level, SCOTUS. Brown v Board of Education? Free speech issues -- check out 'School Speech' in wiki. Or, most recently, the famous in-service dog issue for a girl with cp. Violations of IDEA or things that fall under the Ed Dept's Office of Civil Rights could end up in federal courts.

 

But I agree with you. The first step, as far as I know, is a complaint to relevant state agency, even for violations of federal law. I think it takes a fair bit of litigation to get these to federal level. Please correct me if I am wrong!

It is special education law. I am unsure about how, but back then, it went through the federal government. 

[Audrey]

nm 

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Susan Wise Bauer
Quoted deleted post

[shawthorne44]

I agree, at some point, unless you have no other option you just don't want those people to educate your child. Isn't TX kind of notorious for trying to get kids out of the school system if they have any kind of need for an IEP, etc? I thought I read some articles on the topic recently. 

 

Merely one datapoint, but I was talking with an accidental homeschooler a few months ago.  The boy was a nice kid, very personable, very smart.  Someone started hitting him and because he didn't curl into a ball and instead fought back, they were going to send the kid to the alternative school.  The mother was fighting it.  The office secretary gave her some advice to withdraw her child and then wait a certain amount of time and then re-enroll.   Then when she went to enroll, she was told, "Too bad so sad, you can't reenroll your child after un-enrolling during punishment.  Here is the district's homeschooling form."   

 

Just because it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean it didn't happen.   Petty bureaucrats are known for doing petty things.  

 

eta: this was Texas

Edited March 8, 2017 by shawthorne44

[Χά�ων]

It is special education law. I am unsure about how, but back then, it went through the federal government.

"Back then"? When was that? Before 2004? Before 1997? Before 1990? Before 1975?

 

I am trying to understand what you mean you are referring to when you say it went through the federal government. There have been procedural safeguards since 1975 and not once has the complaint process or due process started at the federal level.

 

In 1975 it was a due process hearing either at the local or state level. It could be appealed to the state then to US district court.

[MomatHWTK]

DEA’s final Part B regulations addressing due process hearings begin at §300.311.
Word for word, and in their entirety, the regulations read: (see link)

http://www.parentcenterhub.org/repository/regs-hearings/

 

 

 

11. Who has ultimate authority to enforce Section 504?

In the educational context, OCR has been given administrative authority to enforce Section 504. Section 504 is a Federal statute that may be enforced through the Department's administrative process or through the Federal court system. In addition, a person may at any time file a private lawsuit against a school district.  The Section 504 regulations do not contain a requirement that a person file a complaint with OCR and exhaust his or her administrative remedies before filing a private lawsuit.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/504faq.html

 

On January 1, 2009 the author conducted a Westlaw search, covering the last 10, 3, and 2 years, respectively, for the terms "special education" and "IEP". This search revealed that during the last ten years, 1,969 federal and state judicial decisions were issued. These were comprised of 1,549 federal and 420 state court decisions...

http://digitalcommons.pepperdine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1050&context=naalj

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by MomatHWTK

[gaillardia]

I will not read through every post.

Are there any school districts nearby with open enrollment that look like good ones, or better than the one you're in? 

There is a school district near us that a friend had enrolled her kids in after pulling them out of the crappy one. It was a really good district and her kids did very well there. It had open enrollment which meant you could be in another school district and enroll in their district. Maybe you already know this. (Eventually, she put them back in the original school district but I do not know why).

Anyway, I would never want to put my kids in a school where the principal was a jerk and obviously had bad feelings towards me. I'd think there'd be trouble for my kid eventually. 

[kiwik]

Our school does regular teacher professional development this way. Of course teachers should be paid for this time.

I fail to see how this is "disrespectful".

 

It is disrespectful because they asked and were told no but did it anyway and therefore put the problem onto the parents and their employers.  I think they should have got the hour planning time after school but I can't say it is fine to say well we are going to do it anyway and screw you.  Here usually the teacher is covered by a relief teacher or the principal or whoever while they do planning.  They also have several planning days a year where the school is shut.

 

ETA.  It was pretty disrespectful to not have time built into the system for the teachers to plan as well but if you ask you have to accept the answer or keep asking, you can't just say sorry we are going to have an hour paid time whether you like it or not.

Edited March 9, 2017 by kiwik

[DawnM]

It is disrespectful because they asked and were told no but did it anyway and because it puts the problem onto the parents and their employers.  I think they should have got the hour planning time after school but I can't say it is fine to say well we are going to do it anyway and screw you.  Here usually the teacher is covered by a relief teacher or the principal or whoever while they do planning.

 

Are you talking about Faculty meetings?

 

Or are you talking about Individual teacher planning time?  A relief teacher?  What is that?  They just go around giving teachers time?  And a principal will cover?  I have never heard of that.

 

I have never, in my 18th year working in PS, heard of that.  

At the Elem. school the students go to what they call "Specials" which is electives.......it is a rotating program, Computers, PE, Dance, Music, Art.  While they are in their Specials, the teachers have time to plan.

 

At the middle and high schools they just  have a planning period while the kids are in another class.

 

Are you sure that is how it works in your local school?  This doesn't sound right.

 

And it doesn't sound at all like a screw you, it sounds like a "We asked for EXTRA pay so that we didn't have to disrupt the school day, but since that isn't going to happen, we need to do it during the actual work day."

Edited March 9, 2017 by DawnM

[kiwik]

Are you talking about Faculty meetings?

 

Or are you talking about Individual teacher planning time?  A relief teacher?  What is that?  They just go around giving teachers time?  And a principal will cover?  I have never heard of that.

 

I have never, in my 18th year working in PS, heard of that.  

At the Elem. school the students go to what they call "Specials" which is electives.......it is a rotating program, Computers, PE, Dance, Music, Art.  While they are in their Specials, the teachers have time to plan.

 

At the middle and high schools they just  have a planning period while the kids are in another class.

 

Are you sure that is how it works in your local school?  This doesn't sound right.

 

Well I am in NZ.  Both schools my kids have been at have regular relievers. They do a day a week for syndicate heads to do management level planning and about half a day for other staff plus cover sick leave although others are taken on when there are a lot of staff sick.  Also people in their first two years teaching are supposed to have a day a week observation of other teachers so they cover that.  The preschool teachers had 2 hours a week where they were rostered off the floor so to speak.  When I was a kid I went to a 7 teacher school and the principal covered professional development and sick leave but I suspect that is not common now although I am sure my kids mentioned having the principal or the vice principal for short periods of time.  We don't have specials - the class teacher teaches everything from reading and maths to PE and art until intermendiate (6 th and 7th grade) when they have specialist teaching for workshop and home economics,  It is not until high school we get different teachers for each subject. 

 

We just have a much different system than you do.

Edited March 9, 2017 by kiwik

[TechWife]

It is disrespectful because they asked and were told no but did it anyway and therefore put the problem onto the parents and their employers.

 

...

 

ETA. It was pretty disrespectful to not have time built into the system for the teachers to plan as well but if you ask you have to accept the answer or keep asking, you can't just say sorry we are going to have an hour paid time whether you like it or not.

They asked for the funding, not whether or not they could have an hour to plan. When the funding wasn't approved, they DID build it into the schedule by changing the start time one day a week. The onus of taking care of children is ALWAYS on the parents, not the school. I fail to understand why teachers shouldn't be paid for the work they do. They already have plenty to do after school hours.

[Mimm]

They asked for the funding, not whether or not they could have an hour to plan. When the funding wasn't approved, they DID build it into the schedule by changing the start time one day a week. The onus of taking care of children is ALWAYS on the parents, not the school. I fail to understand why teachers shouldn't be paid for the work they do. They already have plenty to do after school hours.

 

:iagree:

 

Yeah, I'm sorry, but the planning has to be done either way. This is work that the teachers are doing and yes, they deserve to be paid for it. I guarantee most of them are putting in hours of unpaid time outside of the classroom still. They wanted pay for one hour a week. It was a reasonable request. The voters said no. Ok, they'll fit it into the budget of time and money that they already have. It could be argued that it was disrespectful of the voters to not want to give the teachers an hour of paid planning time per week. But the voters are frequently dismissive of the needs of teachers.

[Meriwether]

This conversation is weird to me. I was a classroom teacher. I did a lot of planning after school and during the summer. I spent a number of evenings grading papers. But I was being paid for my work. I was given a salary. I was not paid by the hour. I'm glad I wasn't forced to stay after school for another planning period. I preferred to do that in my own home. You might think teachers should be paid more than they are, but it isn't correct to say they aren't being paid for their planning time if they are on a salary. My husband, who works in business, is also on a salary. Numerous times per year he goes to business meetings after hours, goes in on Saturday mornings to bill cars, does some computer work before church on Sunday mornings, etc. He is compensated through his salary.

[Zinnia]

This conversation is weird to me. I was a classroom teacher. I did a lot of planning after school and during the summer. I spent a number of evenings grading papers. But I was being paid for my work. I was given a salary. I was not paid by the hour. I'm glad I wasn't forced to stay after school for another planning period. I preferred to do that in my own home. You might think teachers should be paid more than they are, but it isn't correct to say they aren't being paid for their planning time if they are on a salary. My husband, who works in business, is also on a salary. Numerous times per year he goes to business meetings after hours, goes in on Saturday mornings to bill cars, does some computer work before church on Sunday mornings, etc. He is compensated through his salary.

This. This topic comes up a lot IRL, and there is always an undercurrent that teachers aren't paid for all the hours they put in. Well, that's how salary works. My dh is a businessman. He routinely works 60-70 hour weeks. No bump in pay. All of that is covered under his salary.

 

My brother is hourly, with overtime at that. I don't begrudge him his income, but I do think of him as very, very lucky.

[Supertechmom]

Gosh, I agree!!  Teachers are on salary.  Guess what?  Salary typically means you are going to do work after hours.   If your job was more of the type that working outside of work hours was rare, you would be hourly.   My manager is salary.  She's on call 24/7.  It's part of the job. She doesn't get extra when she has to come in and settle issues.  My hubby is salary, he's available all hours including weekends and he makes roughly what a teacher makes. He's not getting extra when he runs in to handle a problem.  

 

 

[Sneezyone]

Generally, teacher contracts AND SALARIES are based on a set number of instructional days and hours. If you increase the amount of **required** instructional or planning time without additional compensation then the terms of the contract will be violated. Salaries are paid based on negotiated terms. Private sector salaries aren't usually governed by the same contractual terms. Apples/Oranges.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Sneezyone

[HSmomof2]

Are you talking about Faculty meetings?

 

Or are you talking about Individual teacher planning time? A relief teacher? What is that? They just go around giving teachers time? And a principal will cover? I have never heard of that.

 

I have never, in my 18th year working in PS, heard of that.

At the Elem. school the students go to what they call "Specials" which is electives.......it is a rotating program, Computers, PE, Dance, Music, Art. While they are in their Specials, the teachers have time to plan.

 

At the middle and high schools they just have a planning period while the kids are in another class.

 

Are you sure that is how it works in your local school? This doesn't sound right.

 

And it doesn't sound at all like a screw you, it sounds like a "We asked for EXTRA pay so that we didn't have to disrupt the school day, but since that isn't going to happen, we need to do it during the actual work day."

I'm in the US, and our local elementary schools all have what are called "permanent subs". It is their job to go around and relieve teachers during the day to allow them planning time. They usually also have a paraeducator with them. They've had this set up for at least 10 years. Teachers also get planning time during specialist time (PE, music, STEM), as well as a 90-min late start every Weds morning.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Gosh, I agree!!  Teachers are on salary.  Guess what?  Salary typically means you are going to do work after hours.   If your job was more of the type that working outside of work hours was rare, you would be hourly.   My manager is salary.  She's on call 24/7.  It's part of the job. She doesn't get extra when she has to come in and settle issues.  My hubby is salary, he's available all hours including weekends and he makes roughly what a teacher makes. He's not getting extra when he runs in to handle a problem.  

 

Legally, on salary does not automatically = working extra hours.  What is in the specific employment contract comes into play as well.

[LucyStoner]

Gosh, I agree!! Teachers are on salary. Guess what? Salary typically means you are going to do work after hours. If your job was more of the type that working outside of work hours was rare, you would be hourly. My manager is salary. She's on call 24/7. It's part of the job. She doesn't get extra when she has to come in and settle issues. My hubby is salary, he's available all hours including weekends and he makes roughly what a teacher makes. He's not getting extra when he runs in to handle a problem.

That it's become common for people to be available 24/7 for a small salary (the median teacher is earning $57k a year, in some states way less than that) doesn't make it right.

[emmaluv+2more]

I made $18,500 a year when I started. (:

Yep. I was hired for $19,000 in 2002. Sad, but true.

[QueenCat]

Are you talking about Faculty meetings?

 

Or are you talking about Individual teacher planning time?  A relief teacher?  What is that?  They just go around giving teachers time?  And a principal will cover?  I have never heard of that.

 

I have never, in my 18th year working in PS, heard of that.  

At the Elem. school the students go to what they call "Specials" which is electives.......it is a rotating program, Computers, PE, Dance, Music, Art.  While they are in their Specials, the teachers have time to plan.

 

At the middle and high schools they just  have a planning period while the kids are in another class.

 

Are you sure that is how it works in your local school?  This doesn't sound right.

 

And it doesn't sound at all like a screw you, it sounds like a "We asked for EXTRA pay so that we didn't have to disrupt the school day, but since that isn't going to happen, we need to do it during the actual work day."

 

The system I sub in does that (not the principal, though). They actually have a variety of methods. Some of the include: Early release days once a month. And then they also have days where all of one grade gets a sub for half the day while the grade level plans. That's usually once a quarter. For example, when I sub on those days, I'll spend half the day in one grade and then the other half in the other. I'm guessing "relief" teacher is another word for substitute. They also get their regular planning while the kids are specials but much of that is spent returning emails/calls to parents and hitting the bathroom.