I don't know what to do with this child.

[Moxie]

Can I give up???

 

She is in 8th grade and she is going to public high school next year (insert much dancing and fist pumping on my part).

 

She is a generally pleasant person except when it is time for math and then she totally looses her mind. Like, exorcist level shit. Screaming, slamming doors, throwing things, blames me for all her problems. Really, it is exhausting. She has been this way about anything that frustrates her her whole life. Math frustrates her.

 

We've switched math programs several times thinking that she just needed to find one she likes. No. She just hates math and has no self-control when she is frustrated.

 

She is about a quarter of the way though algebra 1 with Derek Owens. She is taking Alg 1 in high school next year. She is currently refusing to do anymore because I haven't organized her pages correctly (just an excuse, they are printed, in a folder, in order and labeled). She is working on Drama homework that isn't due until Friday. Honestly, I do not give AF anymore. I'm so over this child and her shit. I want her out of this house. Do I keep fighting with her to get further knowing she probably won't finish the book? Do I throw in the towel knowing that she will struggle next year?? Can I run away to Mexico until she is grown???

[maize]

I vote run away to Mexico.

[maize]

More seriously, her behavior seems to indicate major anxiety related to math. I think I would be wanting to address the anxiety and her coping skills rather than pushing ahead in Algebra. I don't actually have any fabulous advice to do that, but maybe others will chime in? I think Jo Boaler (not at all sure I have that name right) of YouCubed has some stuff about addressing math anxiety.

Edited February 13, 2017 by maize

[Anne]

I agree with Maize - I'd bag the math but find some ways for her to address her coping skills and learn to deal better with frustration.

 

Anne

[Caroline]

More seriously, her behavior seems to indicate major anxiety related to math. I think I would be wanting to address the anxiety and her coping skills rather than pushing ahead in Algebra. I don't actually have any fabulous advice to do that, but maybe others will chime in? I think Jo Boaler (not at all sure I have that name right) of YouCubed has some stuff about addressing math anxiety.

 

Jo Boaler is the right name. 

[Guest]

I agree with Maize - I'd bag the math but find some ways for her to address her coping skills and learn to deal better with frustration.

 

Anne

I feel like I've tried for years. I can't help her change behavior she doesn't want to change.

[maize]

I feel like I've tried for years. I can't help her change behavior she doesn't want to change.

You may need to find a therapist to work with her. She needs to work on addressing the underlying anxiety, not just the behavior being driven by it.

[marbel]

This sounds exactly like my daughter.    She despises math and cried, wailed, screamed, threw things.  She just didn't get it.

 

I don't recommend what we did as a strategy for you to follow, but I'll tell you anyway.  In her sophomore year, she wanted to take art classes at community college via dual enrollment. To do that she needed to take their placement tests and placed very low in math.  (Pre-Algebra with arithmetic review.)  She spent a year doing tutorials and retook the placement test, and moved up one level - but still high school level algebra.  In her first semester of her senior year of high school, she took that class, and got an A.  She worked hard.  She liked her teacher. The class was designed for students who hate/are not good at math, or people who forgot all their math and are returning to school.  She will have to take one college-level math class to graduate from either CC or a 4-year.  She's OK with that.  We (as in, she and I) are done with math. The fighting years are behind us, and we can like each other again. 

 

I assume the class your daughter is taking is online?   If I could do it over, I would start much earlier to find a math tutor - someone she met with in person - who specializes in math anxiety and math hatred.  You have time to do this before she starts public high school next year. 

 

Or, does the high school have any sort of placement testing?  I wonder if they have a pre-algebra class?   

 

Math has always been a problem in this house.  One kid does not hate it, but has a dx'd math disorder and simply can't do some math.  The other has no disabilities, but hates it passionately.   

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

ETA: Wait a minute.  She's taking Alg 1 now, and will take it again in public high school in the fall?    Why have her do it twice?  Are you afraid she won't be ready for it in high school?  

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2017 by marbel

[Guest]

Jo Boaler is the right name.

Sorry. I opened that page and then quickly closed it. I can't read about one more way to help her. I can't buy one more program. I'm tapping out. If her father wants her to get help, he can deal with her.

[Guest]

This sounds exactly like my daughter. She despises math and cried, wailed, screamed, threw things. She just didn't get it.

 

I don't recommend what we did as a strategy for you to follow, but I'll tell you anyway. In her sophomore year, she wanted to take art classes at community college via dual enrollment. To do that she needed to take their placement tests and placed very low in math. (Pre-Algebra with arithmetic review.) She spent a year doing tutorials and retook the placement test, and moved up one level - but still high school level algebra. In her first semester of her senior year of high school, she took that class, and got an A. She worked hard. She liked her teacher. The class was designed for kids who hate/are not good at math. She will have to take one college-level math class to graduate from either CC or a 4-year. She's OK with that. We (as in, she and I) are done with math. The fighting years are behind us, and we can like each other again.

 

I assume the class your daughter is taking is online? If I could do it over, I would start much earlier to find a math tutor - someone she met with in person - who specializes in math anxiety and math hatred. You have time to do this before she starts public high school next year.

 

Or, does the high school have any sort of placement testing? I wonder if they have a pre-algebra class?

 

Math has always been a problem in this house. One kid does not hate it, but has a dx'd math disorder and simply can't do some math. The other has no disabilities, but hates it passionately.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

I couldn't even find a plain 'ole tutor, far less one that specializes in math anxiety!!

[ktgrok]

BTDT. She's redoing next year anyway. Drop it. Have her do something else the rest of the year. Seriously. Relationships are more important than algebra. 

[marbel]

BTDT. She's redoing next year anyway. Drop it. Have her do something else the rest of the year. Seriously. Relationships are more important than algebra. 

 

Yeah, I missed that before.  I wouldn't have typed up that saga.  :-)

 

Why have her do it twice?  

Edited February 13, 2017 by marbel

[Night Elf]

My dd did Algebra 1 twice. She did it homeschooling in 8th grade then again in public school 9th grade. She didn't even want to try testing out of it because she didn't feel she had a good grasp. I don't think the OP's dd should advance in high school if she doesn't have a good grasp of it this year. Public school class will bring a different set of problems, such as dealing with her feelings towards math. She won't be able to throw a fit in school. She'll have to sit through the class. It would be a shame for her to be in material that's too challenging.

[Paige]

My DD had severe math anxiety which for her is related to generalized anxiety. I think the coping skills and anxiety are much more serious of an issue than any kind of math skills. Have you tried CLE? It was a miracle for DD.

 

She still doesn't find math fun but a few years after making some significant changes, she might say it's one of her favorite subjects these days!

 

What we did that I believe helped:

 

1- We switched to CLE 2 grades behind her level. Yes. 2 years behind. We did it very quickly and she caught up to grade level. I went so far back so that she'd experience a lot of success, gain confidence, reduce stress, and so I could find where the gaps or confusion was. In hindsight, I believe there were no gaps, but that she just couldn't think because math stressed her out too much. She did at least 2 lessons a day 7 days a week to catch up, with me crossing out significant portions. FWIW, I also crossed out CLE's depressing/negative word problems. They have a lot about dead animals or poor, suffering people, which DD with her anxiety did not need to see. 

 

2- I had her check her work and work alone. I stressed her out. She was able to check her work and fix most of her mistakes without anyone knowing. We worked together on the few problems she couldn't figure out alone. 

 

3-  She had a full eval to help us find out why she was struggling so much. I thought maybe LD or ADD, but there was nothing like that. Understanding the source of her issues has helped me better approach her.

 

4- Medication. If DD is crying over her math, drawing sad faces, or hiding under her bed, I know she's forgotten her pills. It makes a dramatic difference in her ability to cope. For most kids, I'd also recommend therapy, but my DD does not go. She finds therapy triggering, so does better without it. 

 

I think it's important to remember that just as you are suffering with dealing with DD, she is also suffering. She wants to succeed and is not unable to cope on purpose. FWIW, before going 2 years back in CLE, I also tried to get some math tutors. One quit and said she could not deal with DD. The other worked with her well, but was expensive. She helped give me a breather, though, and was who recommended taking her back some grades to give her confidence. 

 

CLE is not my preferred program but for DD, it was what she needed. It was easy, extremely incremental, independent, and easy to accelerate. I'm happy to say that now DD is in 7th grade, doing well with MM PreAlgebra, working with me, and able to struggle through the word problems. I think we began the CLE in 5th grade at the 2nd or 3rd grade level. 

Edited February 13, 2017 by Paige

[kroe1]

In regards to the math, or anything else related to school, just go back in the book to the last place she did get. The beauty of homeschooling is the ability to stop, restart, and go at one's own speed. We did this multiple times during the frustrating math years. But, eventually, something clicks. It might take a year and a half to get through one text, but let her go slow enough to get it. It is even OK to work out of two texts if many more problems are needed. Then, when she does get something, move on rapidly so it does not become boring redundancy. Algebra is tough because math suddenly becomes more abstract. There is no shame in "not getting it", in my opinion.

 

In regards to the temper tantrums, that is much tougher. Teaching her skills to recognize when she is escalating and how to cope would be the best gift you can give her. There are plenty of self help books you can get. Roll play with her until she learns to breathe through it and control her outbursts. Again, go slow, at her speed. Help her work through the guilt when she messes up. But, if you "run away to Mexico" without teaching her skills to deal with stress and failure, she may have trouble in future relationships and jobs. In addition, teach yourself how to help de-escalate others. There are many books that help employers deal with irate customers. Remarkably, these skills can help at home, too.

 

I can tell you have already done a lot of this. Keep going. As you know, this time will pass.

[Scarlett]

Drop the math and address the relationship.  

 

I feel for you. And her too actually.  

[SweetandSimple]

My teen DS has some anxiety over math. Probably due to ADHD and dysgraphia mostly, because he is really not bad with the concepts.

 

He dreads math, gets anxious, does anything he can to postpone it, will get teary-eyed and cry about it-- almost every day.

 

It has been hard for me to know what he can and can't control emotionally, and I don't want to be mean about it. However, I also know that sometimes I tend to underestimate what he is capable of.

 

This has helped us:

 

If he can do his math daily (we use CLE Algebra) without tears and drama, great! I am available to help him, of course, but he needs to try to learn it, not just give up. If he gets teary-eyed and emotional, then we pack up the math and I drop him off at a local tutoring center. The people at the tutoring center are nice, so this isn't really a terrible threat.

 

But he is an introvert and would rather be home, so he doesn't really want to go to tutoring. I have been very surprised how often he can "pull himself together" when I tell him to get his shoes because we are going to the tutoring center: "If I can't teach this math to you, then we need to get the help of someone who can."

 

YMMV-- my son doesn't get angry, just sad and frustrated. And we're lucky enough to have a free tutoring center through our homeschool charter. But maybe you could find a center that would be willing to work with you guys on a drop-in basis...

 

[theelfqueen]

If you don't feel like you can completely walk away from math -- can you just dump her on Khan Academy and step out of it (except monitoring that she's doing it to your standard timewise) ... or buy like a Spectrum Algebra workbook for some ongoing practice and leave it at that.

Edited February 13, 2017 by theelfqueen

[Katy]

I'd make a rule there will be no more math tantrums, or she'll lose screen time for exactly the number of minutes I have to listen to the whining.  Appropriate toned adult conversations about what is frustrating her are okay, but tantrums are not.  She is too old to behave this way, and if she was in school she'd be mortified to be having a meltdown like a 3 year old over math.  Once that was understood, I'd offer to let her drop the algebra, and assign her to work on Khan Academy for either 2 hours every weekday OR 90 minutes every day (NO DAYS OFF), with the agreement that she will do this all the way through summer until the first day of school in the fall.  I'd let her start over with kindergarten math, and work all the way through. Use the excuse that she hasn't been exposed to as much of the newer, common core curriculum, and that it can not only help understand algebra, she'll also get in some review of the rules about exponents and fractions that can make algebra more challenging.  Sign up with student & teacher accounts so you can monitor that she's actually doing the work and that she's moving forward.

 

Tell her to plan on having to watch some of the videos even for the early math, because Common Core is so different.  I'm an adult and went back and did all the Khan stuff with the newer common core last fall, and even I had to watch some of the videos.   Hopefully starting over with the really easy stuff will relieve her anxiety a bit.  And hopefully whatever concepts she's not getting (even if only that she needs to slow down and work more carefully), she'll get some mastery of so she'll find algebra much easier in the fall.

 

 

ETA:  Also, eat the frog.  Math should be done first thing in the morning, right after morning chores and breakfast.  You should always get done the thing you're dreading first, so it's not taking over the whole day.  I'd also make that a condition of dropping the algebra.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Katy

[gardenmom5]

 

She is a generally pleasant person except when it is time for math and then she totally looses her mind. Like, exorcist level shit. Screaming, slamming doors, throwing things, blames me for all her problems. Really, it is exhausting. She has been this way about anything that frustrates her her whole life. Math frustrates her.

 

We've switched math programs several times thinking that she just needed to find one she likes. No. She just hates math and has no self-control when she is frustrated.

 

She is about a quarter of the way though algebra 1 with Derek Owens. S

 

does she *really* understand math fundamentals?  just because she passed them, did she internalize that basic foundation?

 

I ask becasue 1ds hated math.  h.a.t.e.d.  he went through statistics (I'm a big -you will study math - mom), but getting him to do math was pulling teeth.

eventually he announced he was going to major in engineering. :blink:   he had to test into calculus to maintain his course timetable.  he'd never taken it, and did poorly with lower math.

he went onto khan academy (free online) and worked his way through.  it explained things in a way he was able to build the foundations that hadn't previously registered.

now - he loves  math, he's having a blast.

 

and - does she understand she needs to learn to control her frustration?  her emotions are using her and will make her irrational.  (people do stupid things when they're being irrational) does she understand how detrimental that is?

I understand how hard it can be to have a child like this - dudeling with get angry and upset and start to destroy what he's supposed to be working on - so I have to stop him until he calms down, while explaning to him that giving into his frustration and wanting to destroy whatever he's working on will only make things worse in the end.

[Ravin]

Therapy and meds, and choosing the most low-key opportunity possible for math learning time.

[City Mouse]

If she is going to retake algebra in high school, can you just drop back and do some general math review? I don't see a need to fight with her about this when she will learn the math skills next year anyway.

[Ali in OR]

I hear your frustration in working with her and understand hitting the wall at times while home schooling. I'm a former math teacher and currently tutor kids in our high school and I'm taking math classes at the community college to work on getting my credential back (it expired and I need units to renew it). My goal would be to get my kid to the point where she can be successful in high school math. And I would define successful as able to pass placement tests at the community college level. My cc class does not have great teaching and kids are really struggling. But they're mature enough to realize that they need to get through this class to reach their life goals. I wish for them that they had mastered this stuff in high school. My daughter is getting this same material (college algebra or precalculus) as a junior in high school at a much deeper level with better teaching and a better text (ours is online and pretty shallow).

 

I would finish out the year making sure her pre-algebra skills are solid and she's ready to be successful next year. I would have her learn how to look up a topic on Khan Academy and learn from it so she will be able to help herself if/when she gets lost in a high school course. I would make sure her skills working with positive and negative numbers are top notch. We would practice collecting like terms and solving basic equations--have her look up those topics on Khan Academy. Being able to work with fractions and fractions in equations is worth practicing too. Make sure she can use her scientific calculator well. Hire a tutor if needed. She doesn't need a grade this year and she doesn't need to complete any set course, but she does need to work on developing the skills she'll need to be successful in high school. Sorry if this means you have to keep working in a tough situation, but it's 3 more months or so. I could suck it up and do that to try to give my dd a better future. And while we're having a good 8th grade year, there were many times in 6th and 7th grade that I was ready to box up dd and deliver her to the public school, so I do get it!

[marbel]

FWIW, as much as I love Khan Academy, it did nothing to help my daughter.  Only in-person, face-to-face teaching and tutoring worked for her.

 

If I had assigned her 90 minutes of Khan a day, 7 days a week, she'd probably have run off to Mexico herself.   

[goldberry]

, and assign her to work on Khan Academy for either 2 hours every weekday OR 90 minutes every day (NO DAYS OFF), with the agreement that she will do this all the way through summer until the first day of school in the fall.

 

Way to approach a kid who hates math...?  I don't understand the strategy behind this idea other than to enforce authority.  Is there a strategy?

[linders]

Can I give up???

 

She is in 8th grade and she is going to public high school next year (insert much dancing and fist pumping on my part).

 

She is a generally pleasant person except when it is time for math and then she totally looses her mind. Like, exorcist level shit. Screaming, slamming doors, throwing things, blames me for all her problems. Really, it is exhausting. She has been this way about anything that frustrates her her whole life. Math frustrates her.

 

We've switched math programs several times thinking that she just needed to find one she likes. No. She just hates math and has no self-control when she is frustrated.

 

She is about a quarter of the way though algebra 1 with Derek Owens. She is taking Alg 1 in high school next year. She is currently refusing to do anymore because I haven't organized her pages correctly (just an excuse, they are printed, in a folder, in order and labeled). She is working on Drama homework that isn't due until Friday. Honestly, I do not give AF anymore. I'm so over this child and her shit. I want her out of this house. Do I keep fighting with her to get further knowing she probably won't finish the book? Do I throw in the towel knowing that she will struggle next year?? Can I run away to Mexico until she is grown???

 

Could have written your post. Math was the undoing of DS16 and I almost three years ago in 7th.  Everything else, good. Math, not. Went to small private school for 8th. Actually cared about performing better than the other kids. Finally quit arguing with teachers about "showing your work." (We heard about that at every conference.)

 

I really miss our literature and history discussions, but I solved that problem by becoming a sub at the school for...high school lit. Now a whole cast of kids can listen to me wax poetic about Animal Farm and Frankenstein.

[Mimm]

Been there. Done that. So freaking over it.

 

And just to warn you, not to be a total downer here, but it didn't get better when she went to public school. She was having her tantrums in the evenings over homework, that she refused to let me help her with because I didn't help her right. No matter how calm, patient, encouraging, positive I was... she hated math and she hated me. Yes, hated me personally for being there trying to help her. It got to where I would leave the house and go hang out at the nearest Barnes and Noble while she was doing math homework. Talk about disruptive to our home life.

 

The next year it got better. Also, she was being medicated for depression, so a lot of things got better.

 

Lots of :grouphug:  for you.

 

ETA: The year she was so horrible to me and hating every second of math and making my life miserable over it... she was making an A. So... whatevs.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Mimm

[BlsdMama]

Can I give up???

 

She is in 8th grade and she is going to public high school next year (insert much dancing and fist pumping on my part).

 

She is a generally pleasant person except when it is time for math and then she totally looses her mind. Like, exorcist level shit. Screaming, slamming doors, throwing things, blames me for all her problems. Really, it is exhausting. She has been this way about anything that frustrates her her whole life. Math frustrates her.

 

We've switched math programs several times thinking that she just needed to find one she likes. No. She just hates math and has no self-control when she is frustrated.

 

She is about a quarter of the way though algebra 1 with Derek Owens. She is taking Alg 1 in high school next year. She is currently refusing to do anymore because I haven't organized her pages correctly (just an excuse, they are printed, in a folder, in order and labeled). She is working on Drama homework that isn't due until Friday. Honestly, I do not give AF anymore. I'm so over this child and her shit. I want her out of this house. Do I keep fighting with her to get further knowing she probably won't finish the book? Do I throw in the towel knowing that she will struggle next year?? Can I run away to Mexico until she is grown???

 

 

Can I just have her?   She can be my mini me.  I hate math above Algebra II.  Math overwhelms me because I hate not knowing things and because it's hard for me when so much of everything else is so easy.  I hate  that once I don't get one thing then everything BUILDS on it until I'm drowning.  I have cried (as an adult.... well, last semester actually) over math.  :( :( :(

[magnificent_baby]

I have one very similar. Hang in there, it's not easy and I know first hand. It can be downright exhausting. On a daily basis.

 

If she has anxiety in general, brace yourself and be prepared in case the culture shock sets in when she starts school. Establish good relationships with the teachers, but more importantly with guidance counselors so they can check in with her and her with them as often as needed. She may need a lot of support and talking her off the ledge when she wants to return to homeschooling. We recently switched to private school after many years at a large public school that left her floundering. The first 2 weeks were absolute hell (culture shock for her and middle school drama) but she's adjusted and has decided to stay. In fact, she's participating in team sports which we are thrilled and the exercise is going to be wonderful for her endorphins, has decreased her anxiety tremendously and feels part of the community. The smaller environment and very structure academics was what she needed. But we still have our days. She has begged me to homeschool again but we just can't (and I don't think I could deal with the anxiety even if we tried).

 

Perhaps not getting to worked up if her grades aren't at your expectation at first after she changes; it will take time to get her adjusted. I've decided I can't hound her about everything until she's completely settled in. As long as she putting in good effort, I'm okay with that.

 

Have not tried meds yet, but likely will down the road so I can't advise you on that. Therapy has done nothing for us over the years but maybe you would have better luck than us.

 

Every day is a challenge of my patience. It's hard and most people in our lives do not understand. I try to set a few, simple boundaries. I use her phone as leverage, which works as she hates to lose that.

 

Just be a listening ear for her and spend good quality time together having fun before she gets busy with high school. And find yourself a family member or friend you can sound off to when she has you frazzled.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by magnificent_baby

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Parking her in front of Khan Academy will accomplish absolutely nothing. The daily tantrum is accomplishing absolutely nothing, and ditto for your frustration and anger. I would never do another math lesson with this child again, starting tomorrow. Bye-bye homeschool math. All gone.

 

Let her do as a large percentage of the nation does -- let her sit in a math class at public school this coming year, whether she learns anything or not, and let them pass her if they're determined to do it. Or let them knock her down to a remedial math class, if that's what they think she needs. Do not be the one to supervise her math homework.

 

If at all possible, get help for the emotional and behavioral problems.

 

But she's NOT learning math right now, obviously, so there's no point in continuing what you've been doing. And less than no point in doubling down on some version of what you've been doing.

 

I'm sorry this is so hard. This post is just meant to be a splash of reality, not judgment; I have no idea what you've both been through. But sometimes we have to just face what IS instead of beating a brick wall over what we wish was true. What IS is a mom and a girl who are at war over math. (Or really, there's a bigger war and math is just one very hard battle.) Nobody's gonna win the math battle. The bigger war of raising a child, and having a good relationship with them when they're grown, is more important, and I hope it works out for both of you.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I understand.  I really do.  DD had a similar response for a long time.  Turns out she is dyscalculic so the math struggles really were overwhelming her.  It took my letting her completely walk away from math for quite a while, then starting over with very basic (VERY basic) math skills to solidify critical gaps (gaps I didn't even realize she was missing) to finally turn things around.  Now my math loather who melted down on a regular basis actually likes math.  It was a very long road but what saved us both was a lot of wonderful ladies with kiddos that also struggled finally getting me to let her walk away for a while then start over, completely over with math (she was in 7th when we did) and it made all the difference.  I don't know if your daughter has some sort of genuine learning challenge or not but obviously this is very stressful for both of you.   :grouphug:  I'm so sorry.  BTDT

 

Yes, it sounds like severe, debilitating math anxiety triggering a fight or flight mode that she probably doesn't have a ton of control over.  Whether it is triggered by an actual learning challenge in math or not I don't know.  What matters now is that it is damaging your relationship and continuing to reinforce that trigger response.  Realistically speaking the brain tends to really struggle to absorb and process info when it is in that state.  Continuing in this fashion will do neither of you any good.  Drop the math for now.  Completely.  Just walk away.  Do it as a positive, not a negative, not an "I am giving up on you because you have hit my last nerve" type of response but an "I realize that this is soooooo hard for you to deal with and you are extremely upset.  I get how much math is really stressing you out.  I think that you need a solid break from this and so do I.  Lets take that break and find something more productive to do with our time."  Give her a hug.  Show her you care (even if secretly you are ready to throttle her).  Turn her emotional state around.  Show her and you both some grace.  Then walk away from it completely for a while.  Math will be there once you have dealt with the underlying cause of her issues.

 

See if you can find her a therapist to help her learn how to cope with stress and anxiety.  It may take Cognitive Behavior Therapy coupled with meds or Dialectical Behavior Therapy or Mindfulness training or a combination of many things but helping her to rewrite her brain's response to this is far more important than "finishing" a math curriculum before 9th grade.  In all likelihood she won't retain terribly much anyway and will hit school with even more stress and anxiety.  Until she can handle the anxiety math lessons are fairly pointless right now.

 

And when eventually math is hopefully something she can tackle again, I would strongly encourage you to start way back, fill in gaps, give her a solid foundation instead of pushing forward right away.  It might give her a better chance at success long term and it will hopefully help rewrite her negative responses into positive ones.  Once we started over and DD filled in the critical pieces that were making math so hard for her, a LOT of things started clicking much more quickly.  She was able to cover quite a bit of material at a much faster pace.  It helped tremendously with her emotional response and her overall success in this subject.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:    Best wishes to you both.

Edited February 14, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[katilac]

Once that was understood, I'd offer to let her drop the algebra, and assign her to work on Khan Academy for either 2 hours every weekday OR 90 minutes every day (NO DAYS OFF), with the agreement that she will do this all the way through summer until the first day of school in the fall.   

 

My brain would explode if I did this. 

[Scarlett]

So did you decide to totally drop math with her?  Is she happy?  :)

[Guest]

So did you decide to totally drop math with her? Is she happy? :)

I haven't decided what to do but dropping math isn't an option. And it isn't anxiety unless I totally don't understand anxiety (I have two kids who are diagnosed with anxiety so I know a thing or two).

[Scarlett]

I haven't decided what to do but dropping math isn't an option. And it isn't anxiety unless I totally don't understand anxiety (I have two kids who are diagnosed with anxiety so I know a thing or two).

 

 

Why isn't dropping math in February before she goes to public school in the fall an option?

 

If you can't drop it can you at least go back to very very basic math? And very little of it?

[OneStepAtATime]

Way to approach a kid who hates math...?  I don't understand the strategy behind this idea other than to enforce authority.  Is there a strategy?

I agree.  

[maize]

I haven't decided what to do but dropping math isn't an option. And it isn't anxiety unless I totally don't understand anxiety (I have two kids who are diagnosed with anxiety so I know a thing or two).

Has this child been evaluated for anxiety? It presents quite differently in different people. I didn't recognize the rather severe anxiety in my second child for a long time because it presented so differently than the more obvious anxiety presentations in my first and third children. Second child is actually the most impaired if the three at this time.

 

Your description of your dd's reaction to math screams anxiety to me.

[Innisfree]

Has this child been evaluated for anxiety? It presents quite differently in different people. I didn't recognize the rather severe anxiety in my second child for a long time because it presented so differently than the more obvious anxiety presentations in my first and third children. Second child is actually the most impaired if the three at this time.

 

Your description of your dd's reaction to math screams anxiety to me.

 

This bears repeating.

 

My child's anxiety looked like furious, angry, oppositional, destructive behavior.

 

It was still anxiety, and responded well to being treated as anxiety.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'd make a rule there will be no more math tantrums, or she'll lose screen time for exactly the number of minutes I have to listen to the whining.  Appropriate toned adult conversations about what is frustrating her are okay, but tantrums are not.  She is too old to behave this way, and if she was in school she'd be mortified to be having a meltdown like a 3 year old over math.  Once that was understood, I'd offer to let her drop the algebra, and assign her to work on Khan Academy for either 2 hours every weekday OR 90 minutes every day (NO DAYS OFF), with the agreement that she will do this all the way through summer until the first day of school in the fall.  I'd let her start over with kindergarten math, and work all the way through. Use the excuse that she hasn't been exposed to as much of the newer, common core curriculum, and that it can not only help understand algebra, she'll also get in some review of the rules about exponents and fractions that can make algebra more challenging.  Sign up with student & teacher accounts so you can monitor that she's actually doing the work and that she's moving forward.

 

Tell her to plan on having to watch some of the videos even for the early math, because Common Core is so different.  I'm an adult and went back and did all the Khan stuff with the newer common core last fall, and even I had to watch some of the videos.   Hopefully starting over with the really easy stuff will relieve her anxiety a bit.  And hopefully whatever concepts she's not getting (even if only that she needs to slow down and work more carefully), she'll get some mastery of so she'll find algebra much easier in the fall.

 

 

ETA:  Also, eat the frog.  Math should be done first thing in the morning, right after morning chores and breakfast.  You should always get done the thing you're dreading first, so it's not taking over the whole day.  I'd also make that a condition of dropping the algebra.

 

What is staring at Khan Academy videos for 2 hours a day going to do?  I like math and have one math liking kid (wouldn't quite say love, but heavily like) and neither of us would benefit from that.  That was probably make us hate math.  Two hours?  Most people cannot focus on anything for that kind of time let along someone who goes into that hating it.

 

I dunno to me this is one way to turn something that is already highly problematic into something that is an absolute nightmare.  I've never heard of such tactics working on anyone. 

[J-rap]

It does sound like math is not the real problem, since you say she does this about anything that frustrates her.  I would want to get to the bottom of it, because otherwise how will she handle frustrations in friendships down the road, or her marriage, or her job someday.

 

I think I'd see a therapist for ideas, and maybe meds are in order.

 

I'm sorry.  It sounds very difficult.

 

If it helps your relationship to send her to PS, I'd do that.

[Katy]

What is staring at Khan Academy videos for 2 hours a day going to do?  I like math and have one math liking kid (wouldn't quite say love, but heavily like) and neither of us would benefit from that.  That was probably make us hate math.  Two hours?  Most people cannot focus on anything for that kind of time let along someone who goes into that hating it.

 

I dunno to me this is one way to turn something that is already highly problematic into something that is an absolute nightmare.  I've never heard of such tactics working on anyone. 

 

Notice I didn't say start at grade level.  I said go back to kindergarten.  This will do several things:

1. Make the math easy (not anxiety producing).
2. Force DD to learn to slow down, because even with easy math, she will make mistakes and have to do 5 problems correct again before she can move on to a new lesson.  Rushed work and silly mistakes are a huge part of algebra errors IME.
3. Teach her a few of the newer common-core techniques that can make algebra more intuitive.
4. Force her to work to mastery and review the concepts she has problems with (IME - fractions, exponents, and factoring are the main issues here - a child might remember the rules enough to work through a single lesson, but then promptly forget the rules about inverting fractions and exponents when they need the information for algebra later - where one mistake will lead to the wrong answer and endless frustration).
5. It will prepare her for high school math classes where an hour in class and and hour or more of homework per night is common.
6. She'll have to make the choice to trade some free time for the right to do something easier (dropping algebra).  She's probably already spending over two hours a day between tantrums and procrastination and actual math work. This way she gets to stop the emotional tantrums and anxiety (her win), but she doesn't get a reward for her past tantrums by getting to drop math entirely.
7. I've used Khan with several children who were struggling with math, after I used it to review concepts myself to make sure it was good enough. She will breeze through the things she finds easy, learn a few new techniques, and develop some confidence again.  With this many months left, she will probably figure out what concepts she's having trouble with, master them, and be through most of algebra again by the time she starts it in the fall.
8. Most importantly, her frustrations about math will start to land on herself instead of on her mother.  With instant feedback after every single problem, you can't do a whole page of work to find out you got 80% of the questions wrong.  You don't get angry at your mother because she didn't explain it to you right.  You instead watch a video or two over again until you figure out what you are doing wrong.  She can watch the videos over and over again until she understands, and the videos will never get a frustrated tone with her because they'll never think, "This is obvious, why aren't you listening?  Don't you know I have other things to do today?" the way a mother or tutor might.  And then she can get instant practice until mastery, as well as review every time she takes a mastery challenge.
9. It will save the relationship with the mom without sacrificing math skills or more money.
10. It's a way for her to do the review she needs without mom investing more time, money, or energy into figuring out what skills she needs to review in order to succeed with algebra.

 

ETA:  Ooops, didn't realize the question was about the videos.  No, I wouldn't have her do the videos at all.  Do the skills practice, do the mastery quizzes, and only watch the videos when she needs to understand why she's answering a problem incorrectly.  When you get a question wrong, the site pops up a link to the video(s) you need to understand the problem.  The bulk of her time will be getting praise, chimes, and rewards for answering things correctly.  Sometimes, when she's rushing or not paying attention, she'll be forced to slow down and work to mastery.  When she does so, she'll get extra praise and rewards for working hard on something that was challenging to her.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Katy

[SparklyUnicorn]

My doubt about this is the amount of time you think is appropriate.

 

And with the idea of "force".  How does that look with a kid who is already flipping out about math?  Do you tie them down?  Withhold food?  I mean seriously.  If Moxie says she has tried everything under the sun, this doesn't strike me as something different than probably what she has already tried. 

 

 

 

 

Notice I didn't say start at grade level.  I said go back to kindergarten.  This will do several things:

1. Make the math easy (not anxiety producing).
2. Force DD to learn to slow down, because even with easy math, she will make mistakes and have to do 5 problems correct again before she can move on to a new lesson.  Rushed work and silly mistakes are a huge part of algebra errors IME.
3. Teach her a few of the newer common-core techniques that can make algebra more intuitive.
4. Force her to work to mastery and review the concepts she has problems with (IME - fractions, exponents, and factoring are the main issues here - a child might remember the rules enough to work through a single lesson, but then promptly forget the rules about inverting fractions and exponents when they need the information for algebra later - where one mistake will lead to the wrong answer and endless frustration).
5. It will prepare her for high school math classes where an hour in class and and hour or more of homework per night is common.
6. She'll have to make the choice to trade some free time for the right to do something easier (dropping algebra).  She's probably already spending over two hours a day between tantrums and procrastination and actual math work. This way she gets to stop the emotional tantrums and anxiety (her win), but she doesn't get a reward for her past tantrums by getting to drop math entirely.
7. I've used Khan with several children who were struggling with math, after I used it to review concepts myself to make sure it was good enough. She will breeze through the things she finds easy, learn a few new techniques, and develop some confidence again.  With this many months left, she will probably figure out what concepts she's having trouble with, master them, and be through most of algebra again by the time she starts it in the fall.
8. Most importantly, her frustrations about math will start to land on herself instead of on her mother.  With instant feedback after every single problem, you can't do a whole page of work to find out you got 80% of the questions wrong.  You don't get angry at your mother because she didn't explain it to you right.  You instead watch a video or two over again until you figure out what you are doing wrong.  She can watch the videos over and over again until she understands, and the videos will never get a frustrated tone with her because they'll never think, "This is obvious, why aren't you listening?  Don't you know I have other things to do today?" the way a mother or tutor might.  And then she can get instant practice until mastery, as well as review every time she takes a mastery challenge.
9. It will save the relationship with the mom without sacrificing math skills or more money.
10. It's a way for her to do the review she needs without mom investing more time, money, or energy into figuring out what skills she needs to review in order to succeed with algebra.

 

ETA:  Ooops, didn't realize the question was about the videos.  No, I wouldn't have her do the videos at all.  Do the skills practice, do the mastery quizzes, and only watch the videos when she needs to understand why she's answering a problem incorrectly.  When you get a question wrong, the site pops up a link to the video(s) you need to understand the problem.  The bulk of her time will be getting praise, chimes, and rewards for answering things correctly.  Sometimes, when she's rushing or not paying attention, she'll be forced to slow down and work to mastery.  When she does so, she'll get extra praise and rewards for working hard on something that was challenging to her.

 

[Katy]

My doubt about this is the amount of time you think is appropriate.

 

And with the idea of "force".  How does that look with a kid who is already flipping out about math?  Do you tie them down?  Withhold food?  I mean seriously.  If Moxie says she has tried everything under the sun, this doesn't strike me as something different than probably what she has already tried. 

 

My suggestion initially was that she give her DD the option of dropping algebra now with the agreement she will do 2 hours on Khan per day starting over with kindergarten.  That makes it DD's choice.  It's an easy choice if she's already having huge emotional meltdowns over it and is already spending more than 2 hours a day between the meltdowns and the math, but there still is a trade off in that she'll still have to spend a couple hours per day, progressing through one grade at a time, starting with kindergarten.

 

My guess is that this kiddo hates math because she can't understand the mistakes she's making. She's always thought of herself as smart, but algebra is ruining that, probably because she's forgotten a few simple rules about fractions or exponents, or because she rushes through the problems and makes silly mistakes.  Suddenly her ability to succeed or fail feels completely out of her control. Perfectionism coupled with anxiety that she can't do this and doesn't have the power to fix it are paralyzing and threatening to her self-image as a smart girl.  So she'd rather have a meltdown to avoid it than to face failing again.

 

By going back to kindergarten she'll already know 90% of the material. The rest will be common core integration theories she's never thought about before but will find easy.  There will be plenty of this is easy moments, coupled with just enough rushed mistakes and CC new stuff to force her to slow down.  To realize that she's not gaining anything by rushing.  My guess is she'll breeze through the material of K-3 in less than a week.  In 3-4th grade when they start integrating fractions, statistics, & other stuff she'll start making more careless mistakes and go through those grades much more slowly.  By 6th & 7th grades she'll start figuring out what she's been doing wrong in algebra (besides careless mistakes).  All without judgment or frustration.

 

In my house we'd do this first, right after breakfast.  With pomodoro timers rather than 2 hours straight.  Get onto khan, start a timer for 25 minutes, work through the practice and mastery stuff as fast as you can while still working to mastery, and after 25 minutes, take a 5 minute break.  Repeat 3 times and done for the day.

 

I'm by no means saying this is the greatest math curriculum ever or that I would use it as stand alone material.  But when it comes to math anxiety and review and emotional kids, it's an easy and cheap way to help a kid figure out exactly what they need to review without them feeling judged.  There's a ton of praise built in.  It starts so easy it removes the emotional struggle, because she'll immediately start to succeed.  When she fails or makes a silly mistake she'll get immediate feedback so she won't have a chance to find she did a whole assignment wrong and doesn't know why.  She'll click through the hints when she answers something wrong and immediately know if the problem was that she misunderstood the question (rushed), if she made a silly multiplication mistake, or if she forgot the rule to invert some fraction when working on the other side of the equation.

 

The two hours a day guideline is solely so she will 1) not be rewarded for quitting algebra, and 2) get used to the discipline of doing 2 hours a day.

 

In our house the only forcing this would require is not allowing screen time until math is done.  But what motivates each kid is different.  Another kid has different motivations.

[marbel]

Katy, have you successfully had a child do what you suggest?   Khan Academy practice for 2 hours a day for months?  

 

<snip>

1. I've used Khan with several children who were struggling with math, after I used it to review concepts myself to make sure it was good enough. She will breeze through the things she finds easy, learn a few new techniques, and develop some confidence again.  With this many months left, she will probably figure out what concepts she's having trouble with, master them, and be through most of algebra again by the time she starts it in the fall.

<snip>

 

She may.  

 

As I've said, Khan did nothing for my math struggler/hater.  Well, maybe one thing:  frustrated her more, and made her hate it more.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky, if it sounds like it.  I'd be happy to hear that you have shepherded one or more kids through math this way.  I'm just dubious because my own experience was completely different.   

 

I had my daughter read your original suggestions.  She said that would not have helped her, and that it would likely have made her want to move out of the house as soon as she could after high school to get away from me.   That's likely teen bravado talking.  But, worth the risk the risk that it's not?  I dunno.  We solved our problem another way.  

 

 

Edited February 15, 2017 by marbel

[MinivanMom]

I haven't decided what to do but dropping math isn't an option. And it isn't anxiety unless I totally don't understand anxiety (I have two kids who are diagnosed with anxiety so I know a thing or two).

 

I completely understand why you would feel that dropping math isn't an option, but dropping Algebra is an option if she will be taking it in the fall. Drop Algebra.

 

If I were in your place, outsourcing math would start today. She isn't learning anything right now with the tantrums, and it is damaging your relationship. I would be looking for a tutor - any tutor. There must be someone even if it's just a Kumon center or some other box tutoring place. I would sign her up for 1-2 hrs of tutoring per week and tell the tutor that she needs to gently work on basic skills in order to build confidence.

 

Then let the tutor work with her on math from the beginning. You just drop her off, go get yourself some coffee, and sit and enjoy the silence of your hour alone. Then pick her up and take her to do something enjoyable. It doesn't matter what it is. Take her shopping. Run through the drive-through to get a milkshake on the way home. Whatever she would enjoy. Don't ask about the tutoring session. Don't talk about math at all. Math is outsourced from this day forward. The tutor handles the hour of math until June. The school handles math in the fall. Math is on your daughter. You are just her mom now.

 

I think time will tell whether it's anxiety and whether you should be seeking help for that as well. But for right this moment, outsource the math.

[Guest]

The current placement and method is not working, so drop it. Use a tutor. You can call the math dept chair of your local public school district for suggestions.

 

In public school, Algebra 1 can be taken as a two period class for a year, or a one period class for two years. Remediation occurs in the extra time. If you can get her to arrive knowing her computation skills and what a variable is, she will be ready.

[Paige]

I have no experience with Khan academy, but in Katy's defense, working almost every day when you are behind is not necessarily a bad thing. That's what allowed my DD to catch up to grade level after we went back several grades. I don't know how Moxie's DD feels, but my DD felt terrible about being behind. She would not have been happy with dropping math or being told to do what she wanted. She was sad when she was working and sad when she wasn't before we changed things up. She was literally anxious about math 24/7.

 

She worked every day including summers and holidays because she wanted to and because we were working together on a workable plan. Working every day is not punishment but reality if you want to catch up and are motivated. It made her feel successful, optimistic, and in control. She almost never spent more than an hour a day, however. We crossed out stuff she didn't need to work on, skipped quizzes and tests (no need if I knew she knew stuff) and worked efficiently. I would suggest that she take a day off or just go to bed, but she was the one pushing herself to get it done and refusing to quit. It was a huge difference in attitude from before. 

 

I wouldn't start at kindergarten, because that seems like a waste of time. DD is proud of herself for catching up instead of being ashamed for being behind. 

 

Every kid is different, of course. My DD did not have dyscalculia or any LDs that would make the actual learning of math difficult. I thought she did at the time. I thought she must have some sort of serious learning issue, but it was just anxiety. It presented very differently than I had thought anxiety would. If she had a learning disability, perhaps our plan would not have worked out. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Katy, have you successfully had a child do what you suggest?   Khan Academy practice for 2 hours a day for months?  

 

 

She may.  

 

As I've said, Khan did nothing for my math struggler/hater.  Well, maybe one thing:  frustrated her more, and made her hate it more.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky, if it sounds like it.  I'd be happy to hear that you have shepherded one or more kids through math this way.  I'm just dubious because my own experience was completely different.   

 

I had my daughter read your original suggestions.  She said that would not have helped her, and that it would likely have made her want to move out of the house as soon as she could after high school to get away from me.   That's likely teen bravado talking.  But, worth the risk the risk that it's not?  I dunno.  We solved our problem another way.  

 

I find Khan useful when I want another explanation.  Otherwise I find it so gosh darn snoozy.  Sometimes just watching a 10 minute video I have to pause it several times and take breaks just to get through it (and my attention span and interest level aren't particularly low).  His explanations are good, but I dunno sometimes it just feels SO BORING.  Two hours of that and I think I would feel like hurling myself off a bridge. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think if possible I'd find her a tutor.  She may not flip out for a stranger and that would be useful right there.  If you have no patience left and not one ounce of interest in trying to figure it out because you are burnt out (understandable) then I think it would just be best to find her some help.

 

 

[Katy]

Katy, have you successfully had a child do what you suggest?   Khan Academy practice for 2 hours a day for months?  

 

 

She may.  

 

As I've said, Khan did nothing for my math struggler/hater.  Well, maybe one thing:  frustrated her more, and made her hate it more.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky, if it sounds like it.  I'd be happy to hear that you have shepherded one or more kids through math this way.  I'm just dubious because my own experience was completely different.   

 

I had my daughter read your original suggestions.  She said that would not help, and that it would likely make her want to move out of the house as soon as she could after high school to get away from me.   That's likely teen bravado talking.  But, worth the risk the risk that it's not?  I dunno.  We solved our problem another way.  

 

Yes, I have.  Well, it didn't take months.  It took 6 weeks or less to get caught up each time.  I figured this out after using Khan to teach myself some common core stuff. Like anything, it won't work for every kid. If they have a learning disability, or are working through illness, grief, or trauma it might not work.  But if they're an otherwise smart, healthy kid who's just been stymied by integrating all the lessons of arithmetic into algebra it can help figure out where the holes are quickly. And frankly, even if a child only spent only 25 minutes a day, every day, reviewing the material it might be enough.  

 

My kids have had friends who've had hours of math homework every night starting in elementary school though, so 2 hours a day total doesn't feel extreme to them.  Again, we take breaks so it's actually more like an hour and 40 minutes of actual work.  Also, several of our friend's children who are in school do extra math (Kumon) every night in addition to their homework.  DH is an engineer and many of our family friends are in STEM careers, so it's probable that not everyone's family culture encourages as much math.  And not every kid has had their friends cancel their plans for fun because they hadn't done their Kumon yet or whatever.

 

I do know of a parent who this didn't work for, and they figured out that the child had some sort of math learning disability.  I don't know them well and I don't know the details. They got some sort of special tutor to help. 

 

But I do know most kids people like things they are good at.  Khan uses so much praise, rewards in the form of badges, certificates, and bragging about your progress emails that it can remove the struggle for most kids. They can start to feel good at math again. The immediate feedback will help them de-personalize their mistakes because they'll know what the problem is.  I think the system is great for kids who think they're terrible at math because it helps teach them that math is a skill not a talent. It's not about being smart.  It's about working to mastery before moving on to the next lesson.