Updated post #144 Probably controversial but... (vent)

[gardenmom5]

This is related.

Dd attended a woman's conference sponsored by her employer. One speaker, a woman, said the reason for fewer women in exec ranks is they are less likely to apply unless the meet all listed criteria. Men will apply if they only meet 60%. That's an attitude.

[Arcadia]

What really boggles my mind is why it wouldn't be considered an asset for a mother/wife to have an education even if the end goal is being a stay at home parent.

For asians, college education for females was regarded as a costly investment by the parents that benefit the husband-to-be. Some people still think that way. Also there were more unmarried female college grads during my time in the 90s so there was an unspoken worry by parents, grandparents and my own govt. There was and probably still is a preference for guys to marry someone equal or less academically qualified.

 

ETA:

I know a family where the daughter have to start work after high school even though she has more than good enough results to get into state u. Her parents paid for her brother to go because her brother would have to be a breadwinner when he marries. She went to community college part time after she had work for many years.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Arcadia

[G5052]

FWIW, all my female colleagues and fellow grad students with PhDs in physics are married. I guess we took all the men who could stand educated women...

 

I've worked in research, government, and education. Plenty of married, educated women.

 

DH is actually a trade school graduate. My degrees have never, ever been an issue at all.

[hornblower]

This is related.

Dd attended a woman's conference sponsored by her employer. One speaker, a woman, said the reason for fewer women in exec ranks is they are less likely to apply unless the meet all listed criteria. Men will apply if they only meet 60%. That's an attitude.

 

The book Lean In is, in part, about this. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

This is related.

Dd attended a woman's conference sponsored by her employer. One speaker, a woman, said the reason for fewer women in exec ranks is they are less likely to apply unless the meet all listed criteria. Men will apply if they only meet 60%. That's an attitude.

 

Not my husband.  He never thinks he is good enough.  I convinced him to apply for stuff despite not having every single qualification.  He had more than one offer and it's never been a problem.

[mamiof5]

We witness, and can't do much. (sigh)

It is VERY sad :(

[Garga]

I just got back from a field trip to the local hardware store. I'm teaching my oldest son a home economics course for high school credits. The class includes appliance maint/repair, car maint/repair, plumbing, sewing, cleaning, and cooking. We have started with "Dishwashing" for the cleaning portion of the class. We were at Ace to look at the different tools for washing dishes like sponges, rags, and brushes.

 

On the way in I told the boys, "Back in the past, women were expected to do the cooking, sewing, and cleaning while men did the appliance and car repair and plumbing. But today, everyone is expected to know everything. You can't expect to marry a woman and she will do all the cleaning. Most likely in today's world it's just as likely that you'll know more about cleaning than she will.

 

Besides that, you'll probably live on your own between living with me and marriage, so you'll need to know how to take care of yourselves."

 

That speech should be given to boys and girls because it applies to everyone. Everyone needs to know the basics of how to take care of a home/car and everyone needs equal access to education for a job. Utterly ridiculous to deny entire groups of people the ability to provide for themselves.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Garga

[Anne in CA]

This is related.

Dd attended a woman's conference sponsored by her employer. One speaker, a woman, said the reason for fewer women in exec ranks is they are less likely to apply unless the meet all listed criteria. Men will apply if they only meet 60%. That's an attitude.

This was an issue for dh in the corporate world. He never applied for any promotion he didn't feel completely qualified for, but then he would by annoyed to work for people who didn't meet the criteria either.

[Arcadia]

We keep telling her that once she graduates she's on her own. That's true, but it's going to be a financial struggle she shouldn't have to deal with on top of the family struggle. More than once I've seen the gal give in due to no other options. I'm not sure I've seen a situation that has truly worked out super well.

 

We witness, and can't do much. (sigh)

Can you help her and others register for community colleges? Many of my peers who for whatever reason couldn't go direct to college got an associates degree and later went to college as a mature student. Much easier than as a high school graduate applying as matured student. Besides many companies locally are still willing to help pay for their staff to get a 4 year degree after working for a few years with an associate degree for the company.

[mamiof5]

Just had a chance to read the whole thread. Sad, sickening, maddening? All of the above. I just can't fathom encouraging or discouraging any of my children, because of their gender? And paying for their college...what?? We can't afford it, for any of them. Gender has never played any role on how much/what we provide for any of them! Interests, motivation, likes/dislikes...that's different. But gender??? Ugh!! How sad :(

[LucyStoner]

What came to mind to me was a parent not wanting their child to take AP classes or advanced math, etc. You can finish public school without ever touching certain subjects (Calculus for example).

 

Here you need 2 years of math beyond Alegbra (8th grade) to graduate. You also do not need your parents' permission to sign up for trig or calculus.

 

Even if you just take two years past algebra (geometry and algebra 2) you are better prepared than you would be at home with minimal math.

[Nan in Mass]

Yes, I remember this. It was astounding.

I remember it, too.

[creekland]

She said, "Now I know that she truly never will get married, and I just can't accept it. With a master's, no one will want her."

 

:svengo:

 

Not my world at all!  I can't even imagine it TBH.

 

I can't even imagine this happening outside of a Duggar-like cult. I had never even heard of it happening in modern times, until I came to this board.

 

I am sorry you are dealing with it. It must be so difficult to watch. I guess you just focus on coping skills, coping skills, coping skills, and remind her, as with so much of growing up in a bad situation, it gets better.

 

Trust me... those with this mindset are better off homeschooling if they don't want folks like us at school supporting their kids in following their dreams.  We not only listen, we make suggestions and try hard to see that things can work out in one way or another.  Guidance and teachers have helped her with applications, standardized test sign ups, and are a general cheerleading squad.

 

That said, it's a tough road for the student, both mentally and in reality.

 

 

Huh???? Under what rock do those people live??? That attitude is just bizarre.

Plenty of men feel attracted to, and marry, smart, highly educated women.

I wonder what kind of men this woman knows.

 

FWIW, all my female colleagues and fellow grad students with PhDs in physics are married. I guess we took all the men who could stand educated women...

 

That is my world.  I've never heard any guy I know complain about how much his wife knows.  I know plenty who are pleased that we can all have academic or general higher level conversations together.

 

Creekland, could you or a guidance counselor suggest that she look into enlisting? doing a volunteer year with AmeriCorps (although the benefits are nowhere near as good as enlisting)?

 

Could they go to CC and then transfer or are the CCs in your state not very good?

 

If they're not good or very expensive or don't have good transfer agreements, could these girls get started with the EdX/ASU for credit MOOCs? The classes cost $600 for ASU credit and you can go all the way to a BS or BA from ASU bit by bit. If they can get a job at Starbucks, they'll pay for the last two years and have advisors for their staff members to help navigate the ASU program. That might be a good stealth way to go to college without their parents needing to know.

 

If their parents wouldn't let them get a job, could they study for CLEPs on their own? TBH, if they aren't allowed to work, you'll probably have to slip them the number for an domestic abuse shelter for them to get out. At that point it goes well past educational choices into domestic abuse.

 

:grouphug:

 

Abuse has already come into the picture here and the courts have been involved due to certain issues that have gone on.  Unfortunately, the courts aren't taking as strong a stand on it as they could.  Our guess is religious freedom reasons.  Counseling has been required, but dad has stymied that whenever he could too, so far with just warnings.

 

Regarding college, from what I know, they're still working on seeing what funds they can get (student and guidance).  It may have to be a gap year or two with some cc and a job.  Time will tell.  That last bit will be tougher because she probably won't be able to live at home.  I know dad nixed a job she had gotten for herself.  He never let her go to it.

 

She's looking forward to graduation, but time will tell what the future holds for her.  The majority of her friends will be off to college in the fall.

 

All she wants to do is become a dermatologist - awful career that it is.   :glare:

 

Who knows if she would be successful.  We never know that with our graduates as college is college with all of its distractions, etc, but it's that way for gals and guys.  I just know she has the stats and desire and ought to have the chance just as her brother will for whatever his plan is.

[creekland]

Can you help her and others register for community colleges? Many of my peers who for whatever reason couldn't go direct to college got an associates degree and later went to college as a mature student. Much easier than as a high school graduate applying as matured student. Besides many companies locally are still willing to help pay for their staff to get a 4 year degree after working for a few years with an associate degree for the company.

 

She is working with guidance.  They are on her side 100% (200% if possible), so will help her find the most workable path for her.  I'm pretty sure that support has stopped her from ending her life a year or two ago.  She is hopeful about her future, but it's sad that she doesn't have her family behind her supporting her too.

[gardenmom5]

Not long ago a mom was bemoaning with me that her oldest daughter was going off to graduate school.

 

She said, "Now I know that she truly never will get married, and I just can't accept it. With a master's, no one will want her."

 

And there I stood, a happily married woman with multiple degrees.

 

 

Her sister also earned skills-based degree with immediate employment prospects, but has ended up taking care of an elderly woman. That's very kind of her, but I have to wonder what her prospects are going to be when the woman dies. I can hear an interviewer saying, "So you earned this degree and then you did nothing in your field for three years? You're out-of-date!"

 

There's also a sister still at home who apparently just keeps house after graduating from high school.

 

I just don't know. Really.

 

I don't get it.

Sad.

Didn't stop Dsil from striving to sweep dd off her feet. She has a doc. He has now started a mba. She also makes more. He adores her.

[LucyStoner]

On a practical note Creekland, it sounds like she has enough to be able to obtain a financial aid waiver citing parental estrangement so she won't need their tax documents and can get financial aid in her own name before she's 24. With just her income at age 18 she would get the full amount.

 

I would also consider contacting the local chapter of the American Association of University Women and seeing about scholarships, both those offered formally or getting a group there interested in specifically sponsoring her. There's a lot of donors who would take specific interest in a story like that.

 

I hope her parents see the error of this someday.

Edited April 11, 2016 by LucyStoner

[creekland]

On a practical note Creekland, it sounds like she has enough to be able to obtain a financial aid waiver citing parental estrangement so she won't need their tax documents and can get financial aid in her own name before she's 24. With just her income at age 18 she would get the full amount.

 

I would also consider contacting the local chapter of the American Association of University Women and seeing about scholarships, both those offered formally or getting a group there interested in specifically sponsoring her. There's a lot of donors who would take specific interest in a story like that.

 

I hope her parents see the error of this someday.

 

This is pretty much exactly what they are working on, both her being able to get aid on her own and scholarship opportunities (not sure about exact organizations).   Time will tell.

 

I've often wondered what her mom thinks.  A year ago I asked her (student) and she told me she thinks her mom would be on her side, but her dad is dominant, so mom says nothing.  Guidance tells me mom never speaks when they had meetings together.

 

I also wonder what her brother thinks, but there's no way I'm going to ask him and put him in the middle of this situation.

[heartlikealion]

Here you need 2 years of math beyond Alegbra (8th grade) to graduate. You also do not need your parents' permission to sign up for trig or calculus.

 

Even if you just take two years past algebra (geometry and algebra 2) you are better prepared than you would be at home with minimal math.

 

I guess I was thinking with report cards, homework, textbooks, etc. the parents would know and could try to stop it by telling their daughter not to take that class and substitute it for one they find appropriate (honey, we don't want you taking that class. Take this elective instead). I'm picturing minors, not quite 18 yr olds, if that makes a difference. This was just my brain going to a very controlling situation in regards to what the parents would allow their daughter to take. I'm not saying that's a likely case or even something the OP was describing. I personally never took Calculus but did take Trig. I dunno how it worked out, but I think my sister elected to take both. I totally agree with the second part.

[JFSinIL]

dd was just telling me yesterday about a friend (girl) of hers whose parents have told her that they would not pay for college for her because she's a girl.  I understand every parent cannot send their kids to school, and that's one thing.  But this is simply because she's a girl.  They have paid for the older boy child's college, and plan to pay for the younger boy child's college.  But she and the oldest sister, nope.  It's sad, really.  I knew the older sister didn't go to college, but I never though much about it.  I didn't realize she may have wanted to go, but didn't feel like she could do it without parental support.

Unfortunately even if they defy the parents and go to college once they are 18, without parents willing to do their part of the FAFSA the young ladies will not be able to get financial aid. The days of being able to work to support oneself AND pay for college part-time are long gone, too. Without parental support it gets very hard.

 

Not a female, but dd's boyfriend of four years has only been able to earn enough to take a couple cc classes the past few years. He is now 23, and the year he turns 24 he can finally apply for financial aid. His folks refused to either help or do their part of the paperwork. Heck, he can't even get Medicaid now since they won't do what they must to help him get an approved birth certificate to prove he is a citizen (he was born on a military base in England.) Their attitude is "we didn't go to college and we are fine" and "just get a job". Jerks.

Edited April 11, 2016 by JFSinIL

[lllll]

nm

Edited April 20, 2016 by _ ?^..

[Guest]

Oh I know women who go to/went to college to find good husbands. And at a state school no less, though it is certainly more common at religious universities. It's one of those things a surprising number of women think about obliquely - finding a partner in college - but hardly ever admit to in honest terms.

 

And then some, like me, continued on in college swearing off ANY relationship, casual or serious, only to end up head over heals in love and married before finishing :rofl:

Edited April 11, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[creekland]

Unfortunately even if they defy the parents and go to college once they are 18, without parents willing to do their part of the FAFSA the young ladies will not be able to get financial aid. The days of being able to work to support oneself AND pay for college part-time are long gone, too. Without parental support it gets very hard.

 

Not a female, but dd's boyfriend of four years has only been able to earn enough to take a couple cc classes the past few years. He is now 23, and the year he turns 24 he can finally apply for financial aid. His folks refused to either help or do their part of the paperwork. Heck, he can't even get Medicaid now since they won't do what they must to help him get an approved birth certificate to prove he is a citizen (he was born on a military base in England.) Their attitude is "we didn't go to college and we are fine" and "just get a job". Jerks.

 

We have those types of jerks too, but at least they're doing the same thing to their sons and their daughters.  It still sucks to be their offspring when it's not a case of "can't" afford anything, but instead "won't" do anything - not even fill out Fafsa so the kids can get basic grants offered.

 

And then some, like me, continued on in college swearing off ANY relationship, casual or serious, only to end up head over heals in love and married before finishing :rofl:

 

You and I both.  Hubby was not only my first serious boyfriend, he was also my last.  I have very little interest in that sort of thing.  I don't even swoon over anyone - period.  It's a good thing he was interested in me (and pursued that when I first ignored him, then was disgusted by him - too snobbish) or we'd have just remained college acquaintances.  Now I have a best friend to last until death parts us.  He's totally lost his snobbishness.  I corrupted him long ago.

 

Can't say I went to college even remotely thinking about that though.  I'd have laughed if anyone suggested such a thing.

[snickerplum]

Who says these things? That's so sad.

My dad told me that there were two things I could not be - a father and a NFL player. Other than that I could be anything I wanted. :-) It meant a lot that my dad believed in me that much.

Now, I experienced the flip side of this later. In college I made it no secret that wanted to be a stay at home wife/mom (already engaged at the time). I heard a lot of "why are you even here?" comments. You know, because homemakers and mothers don't need or enjoy education? *eye roll*

I hope my girls (and boy!) know that we'll encourage them where they feel led.

[gardenmom5]

Who says these things? That's so sad.

My dad told me that there were two things I could not be - a father and a NFL player. Other than that I could be anything I wanted. :-) It meant a lot that my dad believed in me that much.

Now, I experienced the flip side of this later. In college I made it no secret that wanted to be a stay at home wife/mom (already engaged at the time). I heard a lot of "why are you even here?" comments. You know, because homemakers and mothers don't need or enjoy education? *eye roll*

I hope my girls (and boy!) know that we'll encourage them where they feel led.

 

I'm such a snob - I want my grandchildren to have an educated mother.  ;p

 

I remember the day I came home to find dudeling smothered in destin .  . . not. happy. . . . . there were older siblings there who plenty old enough to have been watching him.  nothing would touch it.   it was 1dd who called upon her chemistry classes and said "peanut butter". . . . it never would have occurred to me, but it bonded with the desitin, and I could remove the peanut butter.  (still very messy, but doable.)

 

if my girls didn't have the education they do - they'd probably choose to stay home if they had the family income.  they both are in fields they can work a minimal schedule to keep their hand fresh.  I've known too many women who had marketable skills - and then they were out of the job market and the market didn't care what their skills were, they'd been gone too long.

 

I watch my neices.  the ones with a degree (as opposed to "some"  college), are more organized and on top of meeting their children's needs.

[Katy]

Honestly I would say I see this attitude as being far more common in some homeschooling circles than I do in public school. Every so often it comes up on this board (along the lines of "Dd wants to be a (insert profession) but my husband doesn't think women should have careers").

 

And at least in public schools girls in that situation have access to all the same classes and have to meet the same graduation requirements which can hold some doors open to them should they chose to pursue them later. For girls who don't go to public schools and whose parents limit their high school education to consumer math and homemaking, it is much harder to catch up and go to college if they tell their parents to shove it as young adults. Easier to start college as an adult when you don't have to first do all of the high school level learning. Also girls from families like that in public school are potentially exposed to other possibilities from teachers and peers.

 

If I had a child who didn't want a career at all, I'd still see to it he or she was college/trade school/apprenticeship ready before 18 should there be a change of heart.

 

I think parents like that perpetrating child abuse.

 

I totally agree.  Also, even if you plan on being a homemaker and home school your own children, shouldn't you learn everything you can so you can give your kids a good education?  Also what happens if your husband dies or gets disabled and you have kids to support?  Everyone who is capable should have the ability to make a decent living even if they are blessed with circumstances that mean they never need use those skills.

 

Unfortunately even if they defy the parents and go to college once they are 18, without parents willing to do their part of the FAFSA the young ladies will not be able to get financial aid. The days of being able to work to support oneself AND pay for college part-time are long gone, too. Without parental support it gets very hard.

 

Not a female, but dd's boyfriend of four years has only been able to earn enough to take a couple cc classes the past few years. He is now 23, and the year he turns 24 he can finally apply for financial aid. His folks refused to either help or do their part of the paperwork. Heck, he can't even get Medicaid now since they won't do what they must to help him get an approved birth certificate to prove he is a citizen (he was born on a military base in England.) Their attitude is "we didn't go to college and we are fine" and "just get a job". Jerks.

 

Yep.  The only way around it is military service, marriage, or having a child.

[RootAnn]

My mom & aunt were not allowed to learn to ride a bike or drive a car by their own mother. She doted on her sons. They were both able to get around the driving restriction via a great uncle who found ways to get them access to a car & time away from their mom to learn how. (Although, he was really sexist & only thought they should have certain female-only jobs. He wanted them to be able to do errands for him.)

 

So, my mom was/is very pro-female for her own daughters. If anything, she leans anti-son. (She claimed my SIL as family over my brother until SIL cheated on/left my brother.) Relatives & friends of hers sometimes wonder at the 'waste' it was for me to get a mechanical engineering degree. I'm not one of my mom's favorite children, but she can boast up a storm on me when provoked.  :lol:

[scoutingmom]

Who says these things? That's so sad.

My dad told me that there were two things I could not be - a father and a NFL player. Other than that I could be anything I wanted. :-) It meant a lot that my dad believed in me that much.

Now, I experienced the flip side of this later. In college I made it no secret that wanted to be a stay at home wife/mom (already engaged at the time). I heard a lot of "why are you even here?" comments. You know, because homemakers and mothers don't need or enjoy education? *eye roll*

I hope my girls (and boy!) know that we'll encourage them where they feel led.

Just had to jump in..... it isn't the NFL (or even the CFL), but my niece has played in all 3 of thd World World Female Tackle Football championships (not sure the exact name of it...)....

 

OK.... Back to the main topic

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[Audrey]

I gather not all are going to agree with me, but just to get it off my chest...

 

It's extremely bothersome to ALL of us in ps when a family encourages the sky being the limit for their sons and severely limits their daughter's aspirations to do much of anything.

 

It doesn't do much for the gal's sense of being either.  (sigh)

 

Gals (or guys) choosing to do something is one thing.  Either being forced to do something is an entirely different matter in all ways.

 

Being female, my heart really goes out to some gals and what they have to live with until they are adults.  I'm sure the scars carry over too.

 

Anyone can argue all they want, but that's how I feel - point blank.

 

Off my soapbox.

 

 

Nothing to disagree with here that I can see.

 

I think limiting a girl's education, opportunities and potential is reprehensible.  It should be a crime.  If I'm feeling charitable, I call the kind of parents who do that abusive.  If I'm not feeling so charitable, I just call them a$$holes.

[SKL]

Regarding going to college to find a husband.  When I was young, this was called "going for an MRS degree."

[Mimm]

My mother once commented that my brothers' educations mattered more than mine because "they're the ones who will have to support a family some day." Thanks mom. It wasn't just one comment but this was the attitude surrounding education in our house. And yes, it was very scarring. :( I had a lot to get over in my early 20s.

[FO4UR]

I see this sort of thing frequently.

 

Some people are unintentionally grooming their daughters to be dv victims.

 

My grandpa used to tell me that if a young married couple had to choose which spouse gets an education first, it should always be the woman.  It didn't make sense to me at the time (why he would emphasize that so much), but I see now.  He saw more than a few dv situations that he thought might have ended differently if the woman had an education.

 

I also remember him telling one of my aunts that it's great that she enjoys _____ for work, but that she needed to think about $$$.  That confused me for a while also.  He's not a greedy or money-focused person.  He was thinking about her social equality and freedom. 

 

He always made a point to tell me positive stories about his female coworkers. He bragged about what grandma did at work - she is pretty awesome.

 

I can see what he was doing for me now.

 

 

[Mimm]

Unfortunately even if they defy the parents and go to college once they are 18, without parents willing to do their part of the FAFSA the young ladies will not be able to get financial aid. The days of being able to work to support oneself AND pay for college part-time are long gone, too. Without parental support it gets very hard.

 

 

 

This is why I couldn't go to college. They were willing to help my oldest brother but not me. My mother pushed me to get married young, and I did. Fortunately my husband is a wonderful person (that could have ended so badly for me) and he was willing to do everything he could to help me to go college (which, financially, was a bad decision, but was wonderful for my self esteem).

 

This is stuff I've mostly gotten over because it drives me a little crazy to think about. I have a friendly relationship with my parents, helped by living a couple states away.

[gardenmom5]

Nothing to disagree with here that I can see.

 

I think limiting a girl's education, opportunities and potential is reprehensible.  It should be a crime.  If I'm feeling charitable, I call the kind of parents who do that abusive.  If I'm not feeling so charitable, I just call them a$$holes.

I'd have that opposite of you.  when I'm *not* charitable, I call them abusive.

 

Regarding going to college to find a husband.  When I was young, this was called "going for an MRS degree."

still is . . .. I sent my girls to college to get an education.  if while in school they meet a good young man who can jump through all my hoops, that's ok.  (2dd  met  her dh during her last year of grad school.)

 

 

My mother once commented that my brothers' educations mattered more than mine because "they're the ones who will have to support a family some day." Thanks mom. It wasn't just one comment but this was the attitude surrounding education in our house. And yes, it was very scarring. :( I had a lot to get over in my early 20s.

I actually had that from 2dd.  not sure where she got it.  she was stressing about what was she going to do after graduation? (before she started dating dsil.) did she want to do a residency or not?  she was clear if she'd been  a man, she would have done a residency as she for sure would have been working full time to support a family.  her goal is to have kids and work part-time.  still, she can comfortably support herself and any future children if need be.

 

I see this sort of thing frequently.

 

Some people are unintentionally grooming their daughters to be dv victims.

 

My grandpa used to tell me that if a young married couple had to choose which spouse gets an education first, it should always be the woman.  It didn't make sense to me at the time (why he would emphasize that so much), but I see now.  He saw more than a few dv situations that he thought might have ended differently if the woman had an education.

 

 

in the 1800's Brigham Young said if a family had to choose which children to educate - educate the girls.  they were the mothers.

[gardenmom5]

This is why I couldn't go to college. They were willing to help my oldest brother but not me. My mother pushed me to get married young, and I did. Fortunately my husband is a wonderful person (that could have ended so badly for me) and he was willing to do everything he could to help me to go college (which, financially, was a bad decision, but was wonderful for my self esteem).

 

This is stuff I've mostly gotten over because it drives me a little crazy to think about. I have a friendly relationship with my parents, helped by living a couple states away.

 

I hear ya . . . . I was one of those who was constantly demotivated by my mother and grandmother. (learning disabilities only exacerbated that.)

 

the plan was when my kids were old enough, I'd go back.  dh was very supportive of that idea. . . . financial reverses and my health made it impossible for a long time.  then .. .. . . we started over (or as dh would say - we're having our own grandchildren) . . . .

sometimes  I think I should go even if I *never* work a day, just to have the degree.  (we currently have two in college.)

 

I married into a family where a *basic* education is a bachelor's degree. including the women. 

[LucyStoner]

Unfortunately even if they defy the parents and go to college once they are 18, without parents willing to do their part of the FAFSA the young ladies will not be able to get financial aid. The days of being able to work to support oneself AND pay for college part-time are long gone, too. Without parental support it gets very hard.

 

Not a female, but dd's boyfriend of four years has only been able to earn enough to take a couple cc classes the past few years. He is now 23, and the year he turns 24 he can finally apply for financial aid. His folks refused to either help or do their part of the paperwork. Heck, he can't even get Medicaid now since they won't do what they must to help him get an approved birth certificate to prove he is a citizen (he was born on a military base in England.) Their attitude is "we didn't go to college and we are fine" and "just get a job". Jerks.

The requirements for financial aid waivers for young people have loosened. Estrangement is now enough and the documention requirements are not all that onerous. I volunteered with an education organization for a number of years and getting kids from homes like this and other awful scenarios financial aid waivers is part of what they do. I never had one I handled rejected. Edited April 12, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Liz CA]

The sentiment that a woman does not need to be educated if she is "just" raising children is astounding. Does the next generation not deserve educated mothers? I am also fine with those that truly have no aspirations for a formal education (education can come in many forms)  but they should at least know that they are vulnerable if something happens to their spouse or their marriage.

[creekland]

Nothing to disagree with here that I can see.

 

I think limiting a girl's education, opportunities and potential is reprehensible.  It should be a crime.  If I'm feeling charitable, I call the kind of parents who do that abusive.  If I'm not feeling so charitable, I just call them a$$holes.

 

You'd fit right in with our (all adult) lunch table at school.

 

My mother once commented that my brothers' educations mattered more than mine because "they're the ones who will have to support a family some day." Thanks mom. It wasn't just one comment but this was the attitude surrounding education in our house. And yes, it was very scarring. :( I had a lot to get over in my early 20s.

 

:grouphug:

 

I'm glad you have a friendly relationship now.  I'm not sure what happens to some of the others in this position from our school.  I hear about what they do after graduation, then most tend to drop off the radar.  This gal wants to aim higher than many and I've had more in depth conversations (and hugs) with her, but I never see her outside of school, so again, once she graduates this June, I'm not sure how much follow up I'll have.

[Guest]

This was true for me growing up, although my parents were implicit, not explicit, and the only boy was the youngest. We did not witness how they supported him to attend college until after we girls were already on our ways in life. It is true they never forbade their daughters from college and/or careers, but they were inherently dismissive if any of us said we wanted to become something involving college (think of Michelle Duggar "interpreting" what Jinger really meant when she said she wanted to live in the City.)

[Valley Girl]

Who says these things? That's so sad.

My dad told me that there were two things I could not be - a father and a NFL player. Other than that I could be anything I wanted. :-) It meant a lot that my dad believed in me that much.

 

 

My father was very much the same. I was extremely blessed. I cannot imagine not encouraging both boys and girls to pursue their dreams.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh I know women who go to/went to college to find good husbands. And at a state school no less, though it is certainly more common at religious universities. It's one of those things a surprising number of women think about obliquely - finding a partner in college - but hardly ever admit to in honest terms.

 

And then some, like me, continued on in college swearing off ANY relationship, casual or serious, only to end up head over heals in love and married before finishing :rofl:

 

I never dated anyone from college.  They just weren't smart enough.  I had to import someone from another country.  :lol:   (I'm totally kidding..)

[FaithManor]

I just had a conversation last night with my mom. We are going through so much now with my father's mental illness, wicked temper, and legal woes. She told me something she had never told me before, and it broke my heart. My mother had wanted to be a teacher; it was her greatest heart's desire, and she had determined in high school though her family culture was one of marrying girls off as soon as they graduated high school if not before, she had set her mind on the fact that she was going to go to county normal - back then that was the two year teaching school that many of the local elementary school teachers came from. She wanted to teach reading, English, and eventually work her way up to high school home economics and health. Her mother - a widow raising three kids with extremely limited financial resources - was equally determined to see my mom "set" which in her eyes meant married. Mom was refusing to date, so it was my grandmother that forced her to go out with my dad, someone from a good family that grandmother figured had a great work ethic and would be a decent provider. Mom is pretty much a people pleaser and acquiesced though she didn't even like my dad. Didn't like him at all. After a year (during her junior year and his senior year) he proposed. My mom turned him down at first because she intended on becoming a teacher and was not giving that up for him. Her mother was furious and spent the next few months being verbally abusive about it. My father kept coming around and constantly badgering her about it. She finally told him she would marry him if and ONLY if he agreed that he and his family would pay for her tuition to begin county normal when she graduated. They all agreed. My other grandparents told her they would pay her tuition.

 

As soon as they married, he joined the Air Force and told her that "You aren't going to college. The only job you will ever had is working for me." His parents stood by him, which I am assuming now they were simply lying to her all along. She left him for a couple of weeks and went home to her mother who told her to get her act together and get back to her husband because she was a wife now, and the family was not going to suffer the reputation loss that a divorce would cause. All through my childhood and young adult years my mother begged my dad to let her go to college, and he refused. The more I learn about how my father really treated my mother, the more I am learning to despise him.

 

And at no time did she just say, "Hey, it's a free country and you are a liar, a manipulator, a control freak, and an abuser. I'll go to college if I darn well want to and there is nothing you are going to do about it. Don't like it? Here's the divorce papers!" Nope, my mother felt by virtue of gender, she had to just suck it up and do what the man said. Sigh....

 

It is so weird because he was very supportive of my education and that of my sister. Proud of our music skills, paid for gobs of lessons, instruments, master classes for me, you name it. Proud when we graduated with our degrees. The only thing I can think of is that it fed his ego to see us achieve, "Look at my girls!" That kind of thing. The only other possibility is that my mother grew a backbone, told him the way it was going to be, and he made a great acting job of it. But, some 32 years since I began college, I haven't seen any signs of my mother developing a spine - she is still caving to his ridiculous, stupid decisions right now, will end up bankrupt and penniless because of him - so my guess is he's one of those HUGE egos/narcissists and our achievements fed his narcissism or something.

 

She's 72, broken down, not an ounce of self esteem, and not in the best of health. Sigh...if she were in better shape, I'd be taking her to the community college this fall and saying, hey mom, let's pursue that dream of yours. College Writing and College Algebra, you should start there.

[Crimson Wife]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Mimm]

Faith, that just breaks my heart. :(

[Valley Girl]

 

She's 72, broken down, not an ounce of self esteem, and not in the best of health. Sigh...if she were in better shape, I'd be taking her to the community college this fall and saying, hey mom, let's pursue that dream of yours. College Writing and College Algebra, you should start there.

 

I didn't quote your whole post because it's long, but how sad! Your poor mom. I wonder...would having something to look forward to help her? Could you give her the course catalog and encourage her to dream a little by choosing something? Maybe it would help her emotionally if nothing else. Hugs to both of you.

[cave canem]

 

It is so weird because he was very supportive of my education and that of my sister. Proud of our music skills, paid for gobs of lessons, instruments, master classes for me, you name it. Proud when we graduated with our degrees. The only thing I can think of is that it fed his ego to see us achieve

Do you have brothers?  I don't and was well supported by my father in my academic endeavors.  I wonder how it would have been different if there had been a son in the picture.

[ailysh]

My parents always encouraged us to get an education to be able to support ourselves. My mom's dad died when she was thirteen and her mom had no skills and five children. Her church employed her as a secretary but they were very poor. My mom paid her own way through college and became a pharmacist (she was the only one of her friends to go to college). She also had to pay rent to her mom the whole time she was living there after high school. When she married my dad (who didn't go to college and who has always made less money than her), my grandmother gave her all the rent money back as a wedding gift. My mom worked as a pharmacist the entire time she homeschooled my siblings and I. Every one of us now has a college education and two of us are homeschooling our own children. I have two daughters and plan to encourage them to pursue careers with which they can support themselves if need be. I have a degree in music and often wish I had chosen a more practical field. If something ever happened to my husband I might have to go back to school. I don't know.

[G5052]

I just had a conversation last night with my mom. We are going through so much now with my father's mental illness, wicked temper, and legal woes. She told me something she had never told me before, and it broke my heart. My mother had wanted to be a teacher; it was her greatest heart's desire, and she had determined in high school though her family culture was one of marrying girls off as soon as they graduated high school if not before, she had set her mind on the fact that she was going to go to county normal - back then that was the two year teaching school that many of the local elementary school teachers came from. She wanted to teach reading, English, and eventually work her way up to high school home economics and health. Her mother - a widow raising three kids with extremely limited financial resources - was equally determined to see my mom "set" which in her eyes meant married. Mom was refusing to date, so it was my grandmother that forced her to go out with my dad, someone from a good family that grandmother figured had a great work ethic and would be a decent provider. Mom is pretty much a people pleaser and acquiesced though she didn't even like my dad. Didn't like him at all. After a year (during her junior year and his senior year) he proposed. My mom turned him down at first because she intended on becoming a teacher and was not giving that up for him. Her mother was furious and spent the next few months being verbally abusive about it. My father kept coming around and constantly badgering her about it. She finally told him she would marry him if and ONLY if he agreed that he and his family would pay for her tuition to begin county normal when she graduated. They all agreed. My other grandparents told her they would pay her tuition.

 

As soon as they married, he joined the Air Force and told her that "You aren't going to college. The only job you will ever had is working for me." His parents stood by him, which I am assuming now they were simply lying to her all along. She left him for a couple of weeks and went home to her mother who told her to get her act together and get back to her husband because she was a wife now, and the family was not going to suffer the reputation loss that a divorce would cause. All through my childhood and young adult years my mother begged my dad to let her go to college, and he refused. The more I learn about how my father really treated my mother, the more I am learning to despise him.

 

That IS a very sad story. Both of my grandmothers were educated, professional women and married in their late 20's, and my mother and her sister both went to graduate school. Granted, the only option their parents gave them was education or nursing, but at least they got their education. My mother worked as a very high-level office manager at a university facility for over a decade after we were grown.

 

Education broadens you in so many ways too. IMHO exposure to different ideas and people in college is great preparation for motherhood. I'm able to advise my teens on a variety of issues because of my exposure that way.

 

I've encouraged both of mine to focus on education during those early adult years, and the rest will fall into place.

[KarenC]

Oh I know women who go to/went to college to find good husbands. And at a state school no less, though it is certainly more common at religious universities. It's one of those things a surprising number of women think about obliquely - finding a partner in college - but hardly ever admit to in honest terms.

 

And then some, like me, continued on in college swearing off ANY relationship, casual or serious, only to end up head over heals in love and married before finishing :rofl:

 Our local religious college has a saying among the the girls.  "A ring by spring"    

[FaithManor]

Do you have brothers?  I don't and was well supported by my father in my academic endeavors.  I wonder how it would have been different if there had been a son in the picture.

Yes, I do have an older brother. He is a college graduate as well. So my assumption is that "letting" us attend college (that man would have been in for a big shocker if he'd ever tried to prevent it, LOL) must have fed his ego or something because he didn't show much of a preference for one gender over the other that we can remember. Maybe mom was good at running interference or something. A lot of things about my dad are coming to light these days and NONE of it is pretty.

[StephanieZ]

I agree, although I haven't been around public schooling in decades, so I had no idea that was an issue in schools! I've seen it in (conservative Christian) homeschooling circles, so I'd thought it was more of a problem with that circle!

 

I never ran into that (obvious) academic sexism while I was in school in the 70s & 80s. I certainly saw it about sports in my own family, but that's not as big a big deal to me since I don't put a lot of value on sports. 

 

That said, in my own family, I do consider gender issues when discussing career trajectories with my kids. I do think it is more critical that my son be able to fully financially support a family, whereas I think it is critical that my daughters have careers that can support them (and a family in a pinch) . . . With all my kids, I discuss the value of having a career that has some geographic flexibility as well as life-time-scheduling flexibility. I.e., the ability to go PT or even take some years off is critical if you want to be with your own kids nearly every day nearly all day your own self (vs FT child care vs your spouse doing it) . . . So, I do think it makes sense, on a personal and individual level, to discuss gender and family issues with my kids when it comes to career. I also discuss the "spouse goes crazy and runs off with a hussy" or "spouse is disabled" possibilities when career planning . . . And we discuss the complications of 2 career families (i.e., an academic career means you go where the job is. Period. Very little choices. . .  but dentists or ER docs or computer scientists have lots of choices on where to live) . . . . And human medicine is generally hard to do PT (except in a few specialties, maybe) and nearly impossible to take several years completely off . . . So, anyway, I think gender and family issues are significant in career choices, but I do NOT think it is the place for schools or society or even parents to make those choices for their kids, even though I do think it's helpful for loving parents to help their kids identify the issues that are relevant to them . . .