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Updated post #144 Probably controversial but... (vent)


creekland
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This was true for me growing up, although my parents were implicit, not explicit, and the only boy was the youngest. We did not witness how they supported him to attend college until after we girls were already on our ways in life. It is true they never forbade their daughters from college and/or careers, but they were inherently dismissive if any of us said we wanted to become something involving college (think of Michelle Duggar "interpreting" what Jinger really meant when she said she wanted to live in the City.)

 

My folks had no money to help any of us older 4 (2 boys and 2 girls) with college tuition, but they did encourage us all to go to the cheap driveable option, on student loans.  We could live at home as long as we weren't jerks.

 

The two youngest had a different deal.  My parents had more money and fewer kids at home.  I was also giving them a lot of money at that point, supposedly to pay off their large credit car debt, but my mom was recycling it to help several of her kids with college and other expenses.  In short, my younger siblings got a lot more help and support with college than the older ones.  But in our case, it wasn't a gender thing, since the youngest were a boy and a girl also.

 

If there was a pattern, it was that the siblings who were least responsible / sensible got the most financial help.  Some are still getting help.  :)

 

Not saying that was the case for your family, but sometimes it is just easier to help the younger kids.  I don't mind my younger siblings having a better deal if that was the reason.

Edited by SKL
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Oh I know women who go to/went to college to find good husbands. And at a state school no less, though it is certainly more common at religious universities. It's one of those things a surprising number of women think about obliquely - finding a partner in college - but hardly ever admit to in honest terms.

 

And then some, like me, continued on in college swearing off ANY relationship, casual or serious, only to end up head over heals in love and married before finishing :rofl:

As long as they still take their studies seriously, bc hey it's taking a lot of money to go there, I wouldn't care. Truth is, many people do meet their future spouse at college whether that's why they are there or not. It's not news for either gender.

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She's 72, broken down, not an ounce of self esteem, and not in the best of health. Sigh...if she were in better shape, I'd be taking her to the community college this fall and saying, hey mom, let's pursue that dream of yours. College Writing and College Algebra, you should start there.

 

Faith that is awful.  I'm with others and wonder if you ought to actually do this to help her self-esteem...

 

My grandmother had to leave school after 4th grade to work.  Her mom had died when she was younger and the family just plain needed the money she made from washing dishes at a restaurant.  She found the love of her life working at a shoe factory as an adult (second husband as the first decided to play with her Maid of Honor shortly after their wedding).  She always regretted not being able to go to school for longer and openly encouraged me to take advantage of all I had.

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One of my students graduated last year. She was only 6 years younger than your mom. 

 

Math was a struggle for her (algebra was not required for high school then and she had not had it) but she managed to make it through. Her grandkids were there at her graduation to cheer her on. 

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One of my students graduated last year. She was only 6 years younger than your mom. 

 

Math was a struggle for her (algebra was not required for high school then and she had not had it) but she managed to make it through. Her grandkids were there at her graduation to cheer her on. 

It is a nice idea for sure. But mom has not been in good enough health since my dad assaulted her to consider this. She is very weak now, very fragile.

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My mom was taught that higher education was a material desire (bad) and her mom encouraged her to quit on her 16th birthday.  (I don't know if it was forced, I think it was a mutual desire as she didn't love school.)  She took over the housework & care of her 3 younger brothers, as her mom was divorced and working.  That wasn't so fun, but then my mom married at 17.  On the positive side, this was not really strange or problematic for the times.

 

My dad was a nice guy, but there was a lot of social pressure about the man being above the woman in various ways.  Being a dyslexic dropout, education wasn't his superior area, but he did try to prevent my mom from getting a job for some years, because it would make him look bad socially.  Eventually he got over that.

 

My mom went to community college in the evenings when she had 4 small kids.  Luckily we lived in a city where that was feasible on a low income, and my dad wasn't a jerk about it.  She was able to transfer her credits to a university later.  Some-teen years later, she graduated with her associate's degree.  My dad got his associate's around the same time.

 

My mom used to say that having daughters made my dad more enlightened about women's rights / discrimination.  She observed that a man isn't too concerned if his mom or wife isn't treated exactly fairly, but he (generally) wants an even playing field for his daughter.  In my life, I've seen a lot of this, but I've also seen men who view their daughters as a little less than.

 

The great thing about women is that we are (generally) strong enough to make things happen even when we have a few more obstacles than we should.

 

ETA:  even when I was a kid, I always viewed my mom as the stronger partner in their marriage.  So maybe that played a role.  My dad was pretty beaten down by his inability to read despite being in a family of "smart people."  My mom taught him to read, so that probably helped too.

Edited by SKL
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I just had a conversation last night with my mom. We are going through so much now with my father's mental illness, wicked temper, and legal woes. She told me something she had never told me before, and it broke my heart. My mother had wanted to be a teacher; it was her greatest heart's desire, and she had determined in high school though her family culture was one of marrying girls off as soon as they graduated high school if not before, she had set her mind on the fact that she was going to go to county normal - back then that was the two year teaching school that many of the local elementary school teachers came from. She wanted to teach reading, English, and eventually work her way up to high school home economics and health. Her mother - a widow raising three kids with extremely limited financial resources - was equally determined to see my mom "set" which in her eyes meant married. Mom was refusing to date, so it was my grandmother that forced her to go out with my dad, someone from a good family that grandmother figured had a great work ethic and would be a decent provider. Mom is pretty much a people pleaser and acquiesced though she didn't even like my dad. Didn't like him at all. After a year (during her junior year and his senior year) he proposed. My mom turned him down at first because she intended on becoming a teacher and was not giving that up for him. Her mother was furious and spent the next few months being verbally abusive about it. My father kept coming around and constantly badgering her about it. She finally told him she would marry him if and ONLY if he agreed that he and his family would pay for her tuition to begin county normal when she graduated. They all agreed. My other grandparents told her they would pay her tuition.

 

As soon as they married, he joined the Air Force and told her that "You aren't going to college. The only job you will ever had is working for me." His parents stood by him, which I am assuming now they were simply lying to her all along. She left him for a couple of weeks and went home to her mother who told her to get her act together and get back to her husband because she was a wife now, and the family was not going to suffer the reputation loss that a divorce would cause. All through my childhood and young adult years my mother begged my dad to let her go to college, and he refused. The more I learn about how my father really treated my mother, the more I am learning to despise him.

 

And at no time did she just say, "Hey, it's a free country and you are a liar, a manipulator, a control freak, and an abuser. I'll go to college if I darn well want to and there is nothing you are going to do about it. Don't like it? Here's the divorce papers!" Nope, my mother felt by virtue of gender, she had to just suck it up and do what the man said. Sigh....

 

It is so weird because he was very supportive of my education and that of my sister. Proud of our music skills, paid for gobs of lessons, instruments, master classes for me, you name it. Proud when we graduated with our degrees. The only thing I can think of is that it fed his ego to see us achieve, "Look at my girls!" That kind of thing. The only other possibility is that my mother grew a backbone, told him the way it was going to be, and he made a great acting job of it. But, some 32 years since I began college, I haven't seen any signs of my mother developing a spine - she is still caving to his ridiculous, stupid decisions right now, will end up bankrupt and penniless because of him - so my guess is he's one of those HUGE egos/narcissists and our achievements fed his narcissism or something.

 

She's 72, broken down, not an ounce of self esteem, and not in the best of health. Sigh...if she were in better shape, I'd be taking her to the community college this fall and saying, hey mom, let's pursue that dream of yours. College Writing and College Algebra, you should start there.

 

Awww, Faith. This is a hard thing to hear from one's own parent. I wonder if it would give her something to live for to take some classes online or on a campus and possibly become a teacher's aide? Maybe a few credits of childhood education would suffice. When my ds was still in PS, they had a classroom "grandma" who helped those who had reading problems. The woman was very much loved by students and parents alike.

 

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It is so weird because he was very supportive of my education and that of my sister. Proud of our music skills, paid for gobs of lessons, instruments, master classes for me, you name it. Proud when we graduated with our degrees. The only thing I can think of is that it fed his ego to see us achieve, "Look at my girls!" That kind of thing.

It's actually fairly common for men who value submissive wives without educations or careers to NOT want that for their daughters. They often would never want their daughters to be like their wife. So they encourage education and independence in their daughters even while undermining their wives attempts to be independent and get an education.

Edited by LucyStoner
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My husband once accused me of favoring my daughters over my sons because my first two boys were weaned at age two and the first two girls not until 3+. (He was not in a particularly rational frame of mind at the time)

 

That's all I've got for gender inequality around here. I now have a ds3 still unweaned, so I guess we're on the path to parity :D

Edited by maize
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Also Faith- is there a reason you or your mom are not getting POA for your dad's finances? The dementia paired with being a danger to himself or others should be enough.

 

I'm sorry. Both for what she is going though now and what she was put though as a young woman.

 

My mom was similarly badgered into a marriage she wasn't interested in by her mother. Fortunately though, my mother had the ability to get it annulled a few months later. She lost it when her husband and ILs were unconcerned that her BIL (was was a young teen) was hitting her all the time as some sort of game. One evening, my mom had just had her wisdom teeth out and this little punk BIL of hers took to smacking her jaw at dinner one night and no one would tell him to stop. He was running around the table and whacking her jaw repeatedly. My mom was 6ft tall and physically VERY strong and she picked the kid up and told him to knock it off or expect her to start returning blow for blow. Her husband was mad that my mom had "embarrassed him a his parents house" and HE tried to hit her. So the story goes my mom walked out, returned with a couple of police officers to collect her stuff and moved out that night. Her FIL was a police officer who was not well liked and officers she brought were apparently more than happy to help her out of there just to annoy her FIL.

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It's actually fairly common for men who value submissive wives without educations or careers to NOT want that for their daughters. They often would never want their daughters to be like their wife. So they encourage education and independence in their daughters even while undermining their wives attempts to be independent and get an education.

 

I'm thankful I didn't have a brother.  I suspect my dad would have focused more on my brother's education than mine.  With only daughters he had nobody else to focus on in that realm.  He had some very old fashioned ideas.  So did my mother. 

 

I don't think he is quite as backwards now though.  

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in the 1800's Brigham Young said if a family had to choose which children to educate - educate the girls.  they were the mothers.

 

Perhaps it had the same results, but my grandpa's intentions were on creating a healthy (equal) family dynamic.

 

He is a rare gem of his generation. I cannot ever recall him praising a woman, to me, for the way she looks, cooks, or keeps home.  I can recall - verbatim - several times that he praised my grandmother, my mother & aunts, and other women in our community for the work they do. Looking back as adult, he was telling me something about my worth as a woman.

 

 

It was assumed that I would go to college, and I did. Everyone one of us grandkids have gone to college, except the ones who aren't old enough and they are headed that way. My mom has more letters behind her name on her badge than I can even keep track of...several degrees & certifications. 

 

I was raised very differently from the culture that I now find myself.  Many of the families around me educate girls solely b/c they are expected to homeschool the grandkids someday.

 

 

Yes, I do have an older brother. He is a college graduate as well. So my assumption is that "letting" us attend college (that man would have been in for a big shocker if he'd ever tried to prevent it, LOL) must have fed his ego or something because he didn't show much of a preference for one gender over the other that we can remember. Maybe mom was good at running interference or something. A lot of things about my dad are coming to light these days and NONE of it is pretty.

 

 

It is a nice idea for sure. But mom has not been in good enough health since my dad assaulted her to consider this. She is very weak now, very fragile.

 

:grouphug:   This must be traumatic for you to see.  Your mom must have run interference. I'm sure it makes her happy to see her kids and grandkids doing so well.

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You'd fit right in with our (all adult) lunch table at school.

 

 

:grouphug:

 

I'm glad you have a friendly relationship now. I'm not sure what happens to some of the others in this position from our school. I hear about what they do after graduation, then most tend to drop off the radar. This gal wants to aim higher than many and I've had more in depth conversations (and hugs) with her, but I never see her outside of school, so again, once she graduates this June, I'm not sure how much follow up I'll have.

Become facebook friends with her. Or whatever other social media the young use now. Well, that's if her parents let her have social media. :(. Perhaps email if you don't like social media.

 

I went to school with a girl who was had a terrible home life. (Literally locked in the basement for an entire summer and fed about every other day.) I didn't know it at the time. She was friends with my friend's sister, so I only knew her in passing. I've since become Facebook friends with her and learned her whole story.

 

Apparently, the only thing keeping her going were the high school principal and 3 teachers who took her under their wing as much as they could. (No, I don't know why CPS wasn't involved...or maybe they were but couldn't do anything.).

 

They're all friends on FB now (except for the principal who has since died), so they keep in touch. The girl I went to school with is now 44 years old, so hardly a girl, but it warms all their hearts to still be in touch. The teachers are gratified to learn that all the care they poured on her made a huge impact in her life, and she's glad to be able to thank them and tell them what lifesavers they were. About three or four times a year, she'll post something about those teachers: maybe wishing them a Happy Mother's Day from her or posting an article about how teachers make an impact and commenting on it. I know they've gotten together for lunch a time or two over the years.

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My grandmother won a scholarship to the grammar school, and her mother wouldn't allow her to take it. Our family history would have been very different, I think, had she been allowed.

 

When she was in her 70's, I sent her off to do an Auslan course. I was studying it myself, and she was fascinated, so i signed her up for a 6 week course. She was terrified and I had to physically push her in the door, but she came out beaming and was at the top of her class for the whole of those six weeks. She kept her certificate framed on the top of the telly until she moved away and said it was the best Christmas present anyone had ever given her. Did wonders for her self esteem until she moved away too. It was something she did and no one could take away the glory or dismiss it.

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My grandmother won a scholarship to the grammar school, and her mother wouldn't allow her to take it. Our family history would have been very different, I think, had she been allowed.

 

There was a late philanthropist, Dr Lim Boon Keng, in my home country that paid parents if their daughters get to go to schools which are free to attend. Parents would keep their daughters home while sons get to go to schools so the bribe by the doctor was necessary to persuade parents to let their daughters go to school.

 

That was when my home country was still a British colony.

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My grandmother won a scholarship to the grammar school, and her mother wouldn't allow her to take it. Our family history would have been very different, I think, had she been allowed.

 

When she was in her 70's, I sent her off to do an Auslan course. I was studying it myself, and she was fascinated, so i signed her up for a 6 week course. She was terrified and I had to physically push her in the door, but she came out beaming and was at the top of her class for the whole of those six weeks. She kept her certificate framed on the top of the telly until she moved away and said it was the best Christmas present anyone had ever given her. Did wonders for her self esteem until she moved away too. It was something she did and no one could take away the glory or dismiss it.

 

*LIKE*

 

(People are going to have to quote you more, now that your posts are unlikable.)

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Also Faith- is there a reason you or your mom are not getting POA for your dad's finances? The dementia paired with being a danger to himself or others should be enough.

 

I'm sorry. Both for what she is going though now and what she was put though as a young woman.

 

My mom was similarly badgered into a marriage she wasn't interested in by her mother. Fortunately though, my mother had the ability to get it annulled a few months later. She lost it when her husband and ILs were unconcerned that her BIL (was was a young teen) was hitting her all the time as some sort of game. One evening, my mom had just had her wisdom teeth out and this little punk BIL of hers took to smacking her jaw at dinner one night and no one would tell him to stop. He was running around the table and whacking her jaw repeatedly. My mom was 6ft tall and physically VERY strong and she picked the kid up and told him to knock it off or expect her to start returning blow for blow. Her husband was mad that my mom had "embarrassed him a his parents house" and HE tried to hit her. So the story goes my mom walked out, returned with a couple of police officers to collect her stuff and moved out that night. Her FIL was a police officer who was not well liked and officers she brought were apparently more than happy to help her out of there just to annoy her FIL.

He is still considered legally competent and refuses to sign one over. She refuses to divorce him.

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Interesting discussion, though my heart breaks for the young lady and other young women like her.

 

I remember my parents sitting my sister and I down to have a serious talk. We were...9 and 8?, I think. When they assured us that just because we were girls, that didn't mean we couldn't go to college, we both looked at each other, baffled. Because DUH. We both still vividly remember feeling like they'd just told us that the sky is blue, or water is wet.

 

That was in the 70's, in a coastal logging town, so not a hotbed of activism for equality, but still the message we'd internalized from school and home was such that we were puzzled by the idea that someone *couldn't* go to university just because they were female.

 

Turns out my mom was told as a young woman that she didn't need to get her degree, and she regretted dropping out of college. She had always admired a woman she'd gone to school with who'd become a doctor instead of a Mrs. And a family friend had remarked in our hearing about women not needing college. (Went right over our heads.) When I was in high school, my mother remarked once how refreshing it was to see young women planning careers and education as a matter of course.

 

I'm really grateful for a culture that says to young women whose families are saying that they can't because they are women, yes you can, and we'll help you. So thanks, creekland, for being a part of a group of people who are supporting this young lady.

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I can't see how the OP would be remotely controversial?

 

My parents helped my younger brother more.  My mom STILL is helping my younger brother and he's in his 40's.  And not because he's male.  It's because he's high maintenance, entitled, whiny, and needy. 

 

My grandfather had 2 daughters, my aunt and mother.  They were told they weren't worthy of college unless they wanted to be nurses.  Nice.  My grandmother was a peach, not a pushover by any stretch, and I can't imagine why she ever put up with him. 

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My parents were very pragmatic individuals.  They married later in life and my mother had been a self-supporting woman for many years already.  Neither of them were conformists, but they weren't odd ducks either.  They just didn't believe in going along just to go along. They were hard workers and they both emphasized that we could achieve our goals if we were willing to work at it hard.  That was kind of the mantra -- work hard, because you won't get there any other way.  We didn't have a lot of money and that attitude saw our family through a lot.  I came to value hard work and I still feel that there is no such thing as a job that is "beneath me."  There was never any talk about gender divisions for work. My brother was not given favour over me, nor vice versa.  Looking back on it -- it wasn't a cushy childhood, but it was loving and respectful.  I think I was pretty lucky.

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My mother turned down a place at Oxford to work in an aeroplane factory during the war.  My father did two years of a music degree at the Royal College of Music before leaving.  There was an expectation that I and my brothers would go to university - in the end, I am the only one who got a degree, but there was no gender bias involved.

 

Girls are 36% more likely than boys to apply to university in England.  The gap is even bigger for disadvantaged pupils: 58%.

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Become facebook friends with her. Or whatever other social media the young use now. Well, that's if her parents let her have social media. :(. Perhaps email if you don't like social media.

 

No, Dad does not allow her on the internet at home.  She is allowed to use it as needed at school, but our school does not allow FB (blocks it).  She's had a clandestine smart phone in the past, but once that got discovered...  There's no way we need to give dad more ammo in the courts if any of us are caught sneaking around to stay in touch.

 

My grandmother won a scholarship to the grammar school, and her mother wouldn't allow her to take it. Our family history would have been very different, I think, had she been allowed.

 

When she was in her 70's, I sent her off to do an Auslan course. I was studying it myself, and she was fascinated, so i signed her up for a 6 week course. She was terrified and I had to physically push her in the door, but she came out beaming and was at the top of her class for the whole of those six weeks. She kept her certificate framed on the top of the telly until she moved away and said it was the best Christmas present anyone had ever given her. Did wonders for her self esteem until she moved away too. It was something she did and no one could take away the glory or dismiss it.

 

Yep.  As a pp said, we have to quote to like!

 

-------------------

 

On a sad note, I was reading our local paper yesterday.  Since we're rural, they list all court (guilty) decisions.  I saw a former student who was in top classes and eager to go to college, but she simply couldn't afford it - no gender bias that I know of - just couldn't afford it.  Right after graduation she deferred a year to work (in a diner we frequent) and try to save $$.  I felt bad that she had to do this, but such is life for many.  Now she's in the paper's listings for illegal drug use.  :sad:   (sigh)

 

Granted, she could have headed that way in college too - temptations are there - but I can't help thinking, What if?  

 

I wish life were more like my ideal world than the real world it is.

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It is hard.

 

I never grew up in that kind of home.  My father told me I WOULD get a college degree and would get something marketable.    He grew up with a mother who was a nurse.  She had 4 sisters, all of them got a college degree and worked.  Some stayed home with kids for a while, but they all had a professional job of some sort.

 

The best you can do working in the PS is to educate them, not only in academics, but in the general life lessons.

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It is hard.

 

I never grew up in that kind of home.  My father told me I WOULD get a college degree and would get something marketable.    He grew up with a mother who was a nurse.  She had 4 sisters, all of them got a college degree and worked.  Some stayed home with kids for a while, but they all had a professional job of some sort.

 

The best you can do working in the PS is to educate them, not only in academics, but in the general life lessons.

 

I only had a sister, but both of us grew up knowing college after high school was expected.  None of my grandparents went to college (only one finished high school), but both of my parents did.  Education was very much encouraged from my grandparents.  I suspect they wish they'd had opportunities for more.

 

My kids were raised with college expectations.  No regrets.  We'd have changed if they really didn't want to or weren't able to go, but that didn't happen.  They love(d) it.  They love learning about many things in general whether in school, college, or life.

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Yes, I do have an older brother. He is a college graduate as well. So my assumption is that "letting" us attend college (that man would have been in for a big shocker if he'd ever tried to prevent it, LOL) must have fed his ego or something because he didn't show much of a preference for one gender over the other that we can remember. Maybe mom was good at running interference or something. A lot of things about my dad are coming to light these days and NONE of it is pretty.

Unfortunately, probably no one dies with who they really are kept secret.

 

After both of her parents died my MIL read their correspondence, (she is a huge history buff and would never leave letters unread, they're history!) and found out some terrible things they did to hurt her behind her back. They were extremely unhappy that she was an independent single mom, they wanted her to live with them after her divorce and never date and just be an extra child with dh and another child too. She got remarried and began a real estate career and they lied to her ex about a bunch of stuff, he took her back to court with their pack of lies, and got custody of dh. My poor MIL had never known why her ex did that, but after reading the correspondence her parents left she put together the pieces.

 

And, Faith, her ex also lied to her saying she could go to college with him after they married. He said his parents would pay for it. It always was a lie, he had already flunked out of Oregon State and not told her. He couldn't go back to college.

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Unfortunately, probably no one dies with who they really are kept secret.

 

After both of her parents died my MIL read their correspondence, (she is a huge history buff and would never leave letters unread, they're history!) and found out some terrible things they did to hurt her behind her back. They were extremely unhappy that she was an independent single mom, they wanted her to live with them after her divorce and never date and just be an extra child with dh and another child too. She got remarried and began a real estate career and they lied to her ex about a bunch of stuff, he took her back to court with their pack of lies, and got custody of dh. My poor MIL had never known why her ex did that, but after reading the correspondence her parents left she put together the pieces.

 

And, Faith, her ex also lied to her saying she could go to college with him after they married. He said his parents would pay for it. It always was a lie, he had already flunked out of Oregon State and not told her. He couldn't go back to college.

These stories are so incredibly sad :(

 

My grandparents were all very pro college. My dad's dad wanted to go to college but his dad needed his help in the farm. He and my grandmother married young and worked like crazy to support their family; once the kids were all in school grandma did go to college to study nursing; they made sure all their sons and daughters got college degrees. My mom's dad was able to go to school on the GI bill, and grandma attended an out of state secretary training program; she worked on and off as a secretary for years. They also sent all their children--three daughters and two sons--to college. In my own family growing up college was absolutely the expectation; what we studied was up to us but my parents tended to emphasize the practical. My mom mostly didn't work outside the home after having kids (raising ten kids being a more than full-time endeavor!) and I would say we were raised with the idea of mom at home as the ideal--but my parents also made it very clear that daughters as well as sons needed to be prepared to support themselves as necessary.

Edited by maize
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dd was just telling me yesterday about a friend (girl) of hers whose parents have told her that they would not pay for college for her because she's a girl.  I understand every parent cannot send their kids to school, and that's one thing.  But this is simply because she's a girl.  They have paid for the older boy child's college, and plan to pay for the younger boy child's college.  But she and the oldest sister, nope.  It's sad, really.  I knew the older sister didn't go to college, but I never though much about it.  I didn't realize she may have wanted to go, but didn't feel like she could do it without parental support.

 

 

That is so sad. Wow.

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I went to high school with a girl of a particular religious denomination that actively discouraged girls from pursuing any type of higher education beyond high school. They were to live at home and wait to get married. She was one of the smartest people I've ever known and it was a travesty to see it all wasted because of the family she was born into. A couple of years ago, however, my parents were having their house remodeled. I was chatting to the contractor and he mentioned that his wife went to my high school. I asked who she was and it was that girl. Come to find out she walked out of her parents' house one day, enrolled in the local university, and never looked back. She now has a master's degree and is the reading specialist for the entire school district. I was so happy to hear how things had turned out for her. Unfortunately her parents will still have nothing to do with her because of her decision.

 

On the other side of the coin.....

 

My dh went to high school with a girl of the same religious denomination I mentioned above who was also incredibly smart. She wanted to be an engineer, but her parents refused to let her go to college. My dh saw her in his home town about five years ago. She'd never gone to college, had gotten married immediately out of high school, and had a handful of children. Dh said she looked so sad and beaten down when he asked her if she'd ever made it to college. Her two brothers of course had advanced degrees and lived in the big city.

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I went to high school with a girl of a particular religious denomination that actively discouraged girls from pursuing any type of higher education beyond high school. They were to live at home and wait to get married. She was one of the smartest people I've ever known and it was a travesty to see it all wasted because of the family she was born into. A couple of years ago, however, my parents were having their house remodeled. I was chatting to the contractor and he mentioned that his wife went to my high school. I asked who she was and it was that girl. Come to find out she walked out of her parents' house one day, enrolled in the local university, and never looked back. She now has a master's degree and is the reading specialist for the entire school district. I was so happy to hear how things had turned out for her. Unfortunately her parents will still have nothing to do with her because of her decision.

 

On the other side of the coin.....

 

My dh went to high school with a girl of the same religious denomination I mentioned above who was also incredibly smart. She wanted to be an engineer, but her parents refused to let her go to college. My dh saw her in his home town about five years ago. She'd never gone to college, had gotten married immediately out of high school, and had a handful of children. Dh said she looked so sad and beaten down when he asked her if she'd ever made it to college. Her two brothers of course had advanced degrees and lived in the big city.

Now.., wait a minute there.

 

A smart person isn't "wasted" whether they go to college or not. Or whether they get married young and have a bunch of kids.

 

I think that's a huge leap of reasoning that isn't based on any factual evidence but is simply a derogatory stereotype.

 

I've known lots of very smart people in my life, college didn't determine whether their brains were wasted or not. Whether they got to fulfill their high school dreams didn't determine it either.

 

Let's not act like going to college is some amazing solution to life's ills and everyone who goes comes out smarter, successful, fulfilled and achieving all their high school dreams for their life bc that's just the other side of the same BS coin that says women don't need to be educated.

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Now.., wait a minute there.

 

A smart person isn't "wasted" whether they go to college or not. Or whether they get married young and have a bunch of kids.

 

I think that's a huge leap of reasoning that isn't based on any factual evidence but is simply a derogatory stereotype.

 

I've known lots of very smart people in my life, college didn't determine whether their brains were wasted or not. Whether they got to fulfill their high school dreams didn't determine it either.

 

Let's not act like going to college is some amazing solution to life's ills and everyone who goes comes out smarter, successful, fulfilled and achieving all their high school dreams for their life bc that's just the other side of the same BS coin that says women don't need to be educated.

 

 

Agreed.  I hear what the OP is saying and it sucks, but I had the opposite experience. I was smart and a high achiever in HS (National Merit, IB Diploma, etc.) and it was made pretty clear to me by family and teachers and society that going to college was the only acceptable use of my intelligence.  So I went to college; luckily it was free because it was otherwise a complete waste of time.  What I really wanted to do with my life (and have done) is have a family and home, and be successfully domestic.  It took me a lot of time and self-realization to be okay with that and not feel like I should have somehow done something else with my brain.

 

This is a good use of my life and skills.  It is as valid as an English degree, or, I would argue, more valuable :)

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The waste is not that an intelligent young woman didn't go to college.

 

The waste is that SHE WANTED more education and was prevented from getting it.

The waste occurs when it is not a person's choice.

No it doesn't.

 

We all have to make hard choices in life. Very few of us are able to get what we want without hardship and a whole lot of us do without or make do with what we can get.

 

Whether our life is wasted is up to us and has nothing to do with education or work or family choices.

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No it doesn't.

 

We all have to make hard choices in life. Very few of us are able to get what we want without hardship and a whole lot of us do without or make do with what we can get.

 

Whether our life is wasted is up to us and has nothing to do with education or work or family choices.

I'm going to just have to disagree. It's one thing if a family can't help a child go to college. That happens. But saying that a child may not go simply because of her gender is wrong. Getting in the way and forcing a young person to have choose stay in family versus get an education is wrong.

 

I am not saying sometimes circumstances get in the way of pursuing education. That happens and one should make the best of that. It is the actively preventing a person interested in furthering her education and skills that I think is a problem and a waste.

 

I guess standing in the way of a capable young adult is OK with some people. It is not with me.

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Now.., wait a minute there.

 

A smart person isn't "wasted" whether they go to college or not. Or whether they get married young and have a bunch of kids.

 

I think that's a huge leap of reasoning that isn't based on any factual evidence but is simply a derogatory stereotype.

 

I've known lots of very smart people in my life, college didn't determine whether their brains were wasted or not. Whether they got to fulfill their high school dreams didn't determine it either.

 

Let's not act like going to college is some amazing solution to life's ills and everyone who goes comes out smarter, successful, fulfilled and achieving all their high school dreams for their life bc that's just the other side of the same BS coin that says women don't need to be educated.

 

I totally agree with you. I meant wasted in this sense:

 

The waste is not that an intelligent young woman didn't go to college.

 

The waste is that SHE WANTED more education and was prevented from getting it.

The waste occurs when it is not a person's choice.

 

She had a desire and the ability to do so. That was the waste. It's one thing if you choose to be a SAHM or to not pursue higher ed. It's something else entirely if it's decided for you based solely upon your gender and your family's religious beliefs about what being of that gender entails for your future.

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No it doesn't.

 

We all have to make hard choices in life. Very few of us are able to get what we want without hardship and a whole lot of us do without or make do with what we can get.

 

Whether our life is wasted is up to us and has nothing to do with education or work or family choices.

 

Count me among those who disagree (and why I said this thread would probably be controversial).

 

Hardships of the health or financial kind are one thing - and still make me sad.  Hardships due to parental decisions killing dreams solely on gender are quite another and are what this vent is about.

 

FWIW, anyone can make the best of what they have, but some have to do far more than others needlessly in order to do so, and when dreams are killed lives can indeed be wasted (regardless of reason).  I've seen many students with horrid parents (drug abuse, regular abuse, failure to "parent," etc) and often wondered what could have been if they'd drawn a different straw in the birth lottery.  Some overcome it, but the odds just aren't that good.  It's not much different with things like this gender issue.  It is a form of abuse IMO.

 

Of course, students can also have perfectly good parents who try their best to do everything right and the kid chooses to waste their lives anyway (generally via getting involved in drugs, alcohol, or crime).

 

Whether students choose to go to college or not is not the waste.  Most niches in this world are needed and there are folks to fill them.  Our world does best when everyone can find and enjoy theirs.

 

I enjoy being a high school substitute teacher and mom.  It's hardly a waste that I don't work full time or be a SAHM.  I'm glad I have the choice to do what I want to do rather than having to do whatever my parents deemed worthy.

 

The sky is the limit means just that.  I've cheered kids on through their college app season and I've cheered kids on who want to immediately join the work world.  (I can't say I've seen any who immediately plan to get married upon high school graduation.)  I sympathize with those who want to do things they can't for whatever reason.  I get angry when that reason is their parents being unreasonable.  That last bit is what this thread is about.

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Count me among those who disagree (and why I said this thread would probably be controversial).

 

Hardships of the health or financial kind are one thing - and still make me sad. Hardships due to parental decisions killing dreams solely on gender are quite another and are what this vent is about.

 

FWIW, anyone can make the best of what they have, but some have to do far more than others needlessly in order to do so, and when dreams are killed lives can indeed be wasted (regardless of reason). I've seen many students with horrid parents (drug abuse, regular abuse, failure to "parent," etc) and often wondered what could have been if they'd drawn a different straw in the birth lottery. Some overcome it, but the odds just aren't that good. It's not much different with things like this gender issue. It is a form of abuse IMO.

 

Of course, students can also have perfectly good parents who try their best to do everything right and the kid chooses to waste their lives anyway (generally via getting involved in drugs, alcohol, or crime).

 

Whether students choose to go to college or not is not the waste. Most niches in this world are needed and there are folks to fill them. Our world does best when everyone can find and enjoy theirs.

 

I enjoy being a high school substitute teacher and mom. It's hardly a waste that I don't work full time or be a SAHM. I'm glad I have the choice to do what I want to do rather than having to do whatever my parents deemed worthy.

 

The sky is the limit means just that. I've cheered kids on through their college app season and I've cheered kids on who want to immediately join the work world. (I can't say I've seen any who immediately plan to get married upon high school graduation.) I sympathize with those who want to do things they can't for whatever reason. I get angry when that reason is their parents being unreasonable. That last bit is what this thread is about.

My parents were unreasonable people. They for sure wouldn't have cared if I'd dropped out of high school (like my 3 siblings) and no way in hell would dad share required info for me to attend college. They didn't even show up for my high school graduation. Bc I'm a girl.

 

It wasn't fair or nice or reasonable or what I would have wanted and it forced me to makes lots of other choices and take a realist view of what I could do with what I did have. (And no that's not anywhere near why I married my dh and had children by the way. How that worked out actually had nothing to do with my parents or college hopes. And my dh was and always has been 100% supportive of my learning anything I want, college or otherwise.)

 

My life was and is not wasted.

 

That's categorically BS spouted by people judging those who didn't make these decision of those who do.

 

Do you realize that suggesting these girls lives are doomed and wasted bc of their parents and if they don't go to college does absolutely nothing to help them and only perpetuates the victim concept that their life will never be up to them to determine for themselves?

 

Very few people end up with the life their teenaged self dreamed of. It doesn't mean they wasted their brain or their life.

 

Lots of people are living a life they never thought they would when they were in high school. Or college. Most of them don't feel it's much of a genuine choice. They've just got to do what needs done with what they have. And no, it's not a horrible awful sad thing to most of them. They don't feel their life is being wasted.

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I was always a high achiever in school and it was expected that I would go to college.  My mother even told me that I shouldn't be reliant on a man to support me.  However, when the time came, my parents told me they couldn't afford it and that they didn't want to take out any loans.  I can understand that but they didn't want to discuss alternatives.  

 

I was really confused, hurt and frustrated.  All my friends went away to school and it was hard not to feel envious and left out when they came home and shared stories about college.  I was working for minimum wage and asked my parents for a loan for a 2 year degree so at least I could earn more money.  They refused.  I ended up getting married and having kids.

 

I have made the best of things but I would still really like to go to school although I'm afraid I don't see that happening any time soon.  It's frustrating as three of my closest friends have gone back to get graduate degrees in the last year.  

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Do you realize that suggesting these girls lives are doomed and wasted bc of their parents and if they don't go to college does absolutely nothing to help them and only perpetuates the victim concept that their life will never be up to them to determine for themselves?

 

 

Honestly, it sounds like you're really not getting the situation I'm talking about with this student (or others like her) or what sort of assistance she's receiving from friends, guidance, other counselors, and teachers.  There isn't one single person putting her down.  There are several helping her see oodles of possibilities that might work as she figures out a path for herself.

 

My vent is that her parents are not among those helping her achieve what she wants.  Parents should be doing that.

 

Then too, her parents are fine with her brother achieving what he wants.

 

I was always a high achiever in school and it was expected that I would go to college.  My mother even told me that I shouldn't be reliant on a man to support me.  However, when the time came, my parents told me they couldn't afford it and that they didn't want to take out any loans.  I can understand that but they didn't want to discuss alternatives.  

 

I was really confused, hurt and frustrated.  All my friends went away to school and it was hard not to feel envious and left out when they came home and shared stories about college.  I was working for minimum wage and asked my parents for a loan for a 2 year degree so at least I could earn more money.  They refused.  I ended up getting married and having kids.

 

I have made the best of things but I would still really like to go to school although I'm afraid I don't see that happening any time soon.  It's frustrating as three of my closest friends have gone back to get graduate degrees in the last year.  

 

:grouphug:  It can still happen.  Both for you and anyone else in similar circumstances, it can be worth it to talk with folks at your local community college to see what possibilities are there.  Often kids can start there even without family assistance as long as they have a place to live.  They may not be able to start full time, but that's not needed.

 

It is common for parents to not want to or be able to take out loans.  That's totally understandable.  Parents can still fill out Fafsa forms so their kids can see what support they can get.  Not all parents will do this - that's where it gets frustrating.  It costs parents nothing to provide their info and they are not on the line for federal loans their kids opt to get.  While kids can't get much on their own, what they can get will usually cover community college.

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A friend and I were recently talking about how much college is going to cost.  She looked at me and said, "At least I only have to send one, you have three." Um no I have four children (3 boys and 1 girl), and they all will get all the help I can give to accomplish their dreams.  I was shocked to say the least. I was also sad because this friend has more than one child, but she doesn't plan on the girls attending college.  I just didn't realize that people still thought this way.

 

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A friend and I were recently talking about how much college is going to cost.  She looked at me and said, "At least I only have to send one, you have three." Um no I have four children (3 boys and 1 girl), and they all will get all the help I can give to accomplish their dreams.  I was shocked to say the least. I was also sad because this friend has more than one child, but she doesn't plan on the girls attending college.  I just didn't realize that people still thought this way.

 

Whaa?! I thought maybe you should tease her that she can't count until I realized she also had daughters and deliberately didn't count them. I hope you told her that you planned on sending them all (or whoever wants to go, or whatever).

 

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Good news as an update!!!

 

I just talked with her and she has a reasonable 4 year school she's been accepted to that will cost her a mere 3K per year. There's still a decent possibility that one of her better schools might come through (financially) too.   :party:

 

Dad still won't put anything toward college for her, so she's entirely on her own, but it looks like she'll have chances and she's excited.

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Good news as an update!!!

 

I just talked with her and she has a reasonable 4 year school she's been accepted to that will cost her a mere 3K per year. There's still a decent possibility that one of her better schools might come through (financially) too. :party:

 

Dad still won't put anything toward college for her, so she's entirely on her own, but it looks like she'll have chances and she's excited.

I hope the dad will at least fill out the required forms. There are parents who won't so the student can't even get merit aid.

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I hope the dad will at least fill out the required forms. There are parents who won't so the student can't even get merit aid.

 

I didn't ask her if dad is doing this or not, but at the one school, the aid is guaranteed at this point.  At the others, it's still up in the air, but guidance is still assisting with every hoop.

 

By having one, that's a great milestone achieved and there's a definite spring in her step now.

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Agreed.  I hear what the OP is saying and it sucks, but I had the opposite experience. I was smart and a high achiever in HS (National Merit, IB Diploma, etc.) and it was made pretty clear to me by family and teachers and society that going to college was the only acceptable use of my intelligence.  So I went to college; luckily it was free because it was otherwise a complete waste of time.  What I really wanted to do with my life (and have done) is have a family and home, and be successfully domestic.  It took me a lot of time and self-realization to be okay with that and not feel like I should have somehow done something else with my brain.

 

This is a good use of my life and skills.  It is as valid as an English degree, or, I would argue, more valuable :)

 

It's worth more than mine, I can tell you that much. :)

 

 

Good news as an update!!!

 

I just talked with her and she has a reasonable 4 year school she's been accepted to that will cost her a mere 3K per year. There's still a decent possibility that one of her better schools might come through (financially) too.   :party:

 

Dad still won't put anything toward college for her, so she's entirely on her own, but it looks like she'll have chances and she's excited.

 

Hooray!!

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I didn't quote your whole post because it's long, but how sad! Your poor mom. I wonder...would having something to look forward to help her? Could you give her the course catalog and encourage her to dream a little by choosing something? Maybe it would help her emotionally if nothing else. Hugs to both of you.

My mom was like yours, Faith. She wanted desperately to go to college but her father and teachers told her she wouldn't be able to handle the stress. Believing them, she tried to make something of herself anyway. She earned a bookkeeping certificate, married the first guy who asked (to get away from her abusive father and sister, as her mother had died) and landed herself an excellent bookkeeping job and moved up quickly. My dad got angry that his wife was outearning him and forced her to quit. My dad never held a job for long (severe mental illness), but would never allow her to go back to work or school. Divorce was, of course, not an option in her mind no matter how abusuve he was and how little he provided.

 

My education? I was "allowed" to go to college but my parents did not help me because girls didn't need college. They put my two brothers through school though.

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A friend and I were recently talking about how much college is going to cost. She looked at me and said, "At least I only have to send one, you have three." Um no I have four children (3 boys and 1 girl), and they all will get all the help I can give to accomplish their dreams. I was shocked to say the least. I was also sad because this friend has more than one child, but she doesn't plan on the girls attending college. I just didn't realize that people still thought this way.

Wow. I'm used to the attitude, but it's not considered appropriate to be so blatant about it. Wow.

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I have made the best of things but I would still really like to go to school although I'm afraid I don't see that happening any time soon.  It's frustrating as three of my closest friends have gone back to get graduate degrees in the last year.  

 

Creekland is right about looking into your local CC. If you can't manage that yet, look into studying for CLEP exams. Many public universities will accept these credits and you can get started on your own without any money down until you're ready to take the test.

 

Another alternative is the EdX-ASU Global Freshman Academy here:

 

https://www.edx.org/course?search_query=asu

 

If you haven't been in school for a while, I'd audit a class for free first and see how it goes. Then you can register for credit next time they offer it. The credit costs about $600 but is from Arizona State which is a highly respectable school that offers bachelor's degrees that are completely online.

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My mom was like yours, Faith. She wanted desperately to go to college but her father and teachers told her she wouldn't be able to handle the stress. Believing them, she tried to make something of herself anyway. She earned a bookkeeping certificate, married the first guy who asked (to get away from her abusive father and sister, as her mother had died) and landed herself an excellent bookkeeping job and moved up quickly. My dad got angry that his wife was outearning him and forced her to quit. My dad never held a job for long (severe mental illness), but would never allow her to go back to work or school. Divorce was, of course, not an option in her mind no matter how abusuve he was and how little he provided.

 

My education? I was "allowed" to go to college but my parents did not help me because girls didn't need college. They put my two brothers through school though.

 

:grouphug:  I'm glad you got to go, but it still really peeves me when parents decide these things on gender.

 

Sorry for both of you with your dad's issues. 

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