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Updated post #144 Probably controversial but... (vent)


creekland
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I gather not all are going to agree with me, but just to get it off my chest...

 

It's extremely bothersome to ALL of us in ps when a family encourages the sky being the limit for their sons and severely limits their daughter's aspirations to do much of anything.

 

It doesn't do much for the gal's sense of being either.  (sigh)

 

Gals (or guys) choosing to do something is one thing.  Either being forced to do something is an entirely different matter in all ways.

 

Being female, my heart really goes out to some gals and what they have to live with until they are adults.  I'm sure the scars carry over too.

 

Anyone can argue all they want, but that's how I feel - point blank.

 

Off my soapbox.

Edited by creekland
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I recall in the late 1960s's my mom told me that my sister and I didn't need to worry, our husbands would take care of us someday. Humpf! We were also expected to attend and cheer on our little brother in all his sporting events - but if we wanted our Dad to pay attention to us Mom said we "needed to be involved in something that interests him".

 

Not sending my dd's that sort of message! If anything, I point out to them cases in which the male family breadwinner due to medical problems became permanently side-lined, and the wife/mom had to work full time, so even if they wanted to be "taken care of" they'd best get an education and be ready to take over supporting their family should need arise.

 

Oh, and I went to college and almost completed my PhD in a topic that interested ME, and my kid sister got her private pilot's license since that is what interested HER!

Edited by JFSinIL
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This is always sad to me. It is also very prevalent in the area where I live since there is a large East Indian population and some still think this way, however, it is noticeably changing now.

I actually wrote an email to a Christian author recently, commenting on why I like her books since she always portrays female characters as strong, independent women with education and professional jobs.

What you describe is such a disservice to girls and women IMHO.

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I don't think it should be controversial. I have noticed it. My own parents didn't see why I'd need college since I'm pretty. Not sure what message that sent my younger sister that they encouraged to go to college... She married very well anyway, lol. I don't think these people are fully functional.

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Yes, I would love to believe this is a thing of the past, but some of it still lives on.  :/

 

Somewhat related - my kids' second grade teacher is in charge of school sports.  Yippee!  Well one day in chapel she called up the girls' basketball team for pre-season rah rahs.  Polite applause.  Great!  Next she called up the boys' basketball team.  RAH RAH RAH!  Fireworks!  Wow are we excited!  Loud, boistrous applause - led by the teachers.  I was really disappointed in this mostly female-led staff - and these are mothers of girls - making it so obvious that boys' sports are THE THING and girls' sports are hmm, kinda nice.  :/  What year is this anyway?

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I feel the same way.  Although, I do talk to my daughters about what they want to do, and how they see their future.  DD (at the moment) doesn't feel a strong desire to have some huge career, although she could.  My advice to her is really no different than my advice to her older or younger brother when it comes to selecting a college or a career path.  

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Honestly I would say I see this attitude as being far more common in some homeschooling circles than I do in public school. Every so often it comes up on this board (along the lines of "Dd wants to be a (insert profession) but my husband doesn't think women should have careers").

 

And at least in public schools girls in that situation have access to all the same classes and have to meet the same graduation requirements which can hold some doors open to them should they chose to pursue them later. For girls who don't go to public schools and whose parents limit their high school education to consumer math and homemaking, it is much harder to catch up and go to college if they tell their parents to shove it as young adults. Easier to start college as an adult when you don't have to first do all of the high school level learning. Also girls from families like that in public school are potentially exposed to other possibilities from teachers and peers.

 

If I had a child who didn't want a career at all, I'd still see to it he or she was college/trade school/apprenticeship ready before 18 should there be a change of heart.

 

I think parents like that perpetrating child abuse.

Edited by LucyStoner
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Definitely not limited to public school.  

 

My dad was born in 1916 but he encouraged me to not to think in terms of "women's work."  I remember telling him about a career day thing in high school - I was going to a law office to shadow the legal secretary. He said "don't be the secretary, be the lawyer." 

 

On the other hand, a homeschool mom recently told me that it was OK for my daughter to major in art because she would have a husband to support her. The boys, on the other hand, need to have real money-making careers. 

 

(I have never taken it for granted that my kids will marry or that my daughter will have a husband willing/able to support her as a stay-home mom.  If it works out that way, fine, but I think it's a poor strategy in 2016 and beyond.)

 

 

Edited by marbel
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dd was just telling me yesterday about a friend (girl) of hers whose parents have told her that they would not pay for college for her because she's a girl.  I understand every parent cannot send their kids to school, and that's one thing.  But this is simply because she's a girl.  They have paid for the older boy child's college, and plan to pay for the younger boy child's college.  But she and the oldest sister, nope.  It's sad, really.  I knew the older sister didn't go to college, but I never though much about it.  I didn't realize she may have wanted to go, but didn't feel like she could do it without parental support.

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I don't like this, but I suspect that for the people involved, it may have different kinds of thinking behind it.

 

My grandparents for example encouraged my uncle (oldest child) to go to university, but not their next child, my mom.  Now, this was a few years ago, so it was less common for women to go then.  My mom, who was in many ways a better student, was really ticked off by this.  She went into nursing where she was paid and given room and board to get her RN license,  and she was a top student in our province and a very good nurse.

 

My uncle didn't finish university.

 

Now, I can absolutely see my mom's issue.  OTOH, I know my grandparents could not afford tuition to both, and they did not know what the outcome for my uncle would be.  And he had a very literary kind of personality, and it maybe wasn't obvious what else he might do for education.  They were a military family but that would not have suited him.

 

So while I know gender played a role in their thinking, I think they were also trying to balance out the best outcome for all of their kids. 

 

Parents can be shockingly limiting - a good friend of mine who wanted to study music was told by his dad that if he wanted help at all, even living at home, he had to study engineering. 

 

I also think that it is realistic of parents to talk to kids about how sex will affect careers.  I would potentially have reservations about my daughters going into careers that could require or pressure them to significantly delay having kids, even if they were sure that is what they wanted - just because it isn't that unusual for younger women to feel differently about it than they do in their late 20s early 30s.  I don't think it tends to affect men as much.

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I didn't realize this was controversial.

I have two sisters who had the attitude that they didn't need higher education because they were pretty and could just get married. They purposely chose less-well-paying things like home health care and quit working the moment they were married. They state that even if their husbands died, it would be fine because of large life insurance policies. It's worked out for them so far, but my next sister and i(both older than these two) have wound up supporting our families at different times. My husband has an on the job injury that is ending his career and I will be supporting us for a while; my sister left an abusive husband and supported herself and two kids. Why? Because we have higher educations and work experience. I was able to slide from a part time into a full time position when it became apparent DH's career was ending, and she was able to get a full time job within two weeks of leaving her husband.

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I have no brothers, but my sisters and I have all been encouraged to follow our dreams with as much support as our parents could reasonably give us. 

 

Once in a college sociology class, I commented that I might choose to marry, have kids, and stay home with those kids. My (female) professor said, "Then...why are you here?" I was dumbfounded by that.  ETA: This would have been in 2000 or 2001. 

Edited by purpleowl
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dd was just telling me yesterday about a friend (girl) of hers whose parents have told her that they would not pay for college for her because she's a girl.

I think FAFSA makes it worse in this country. In my home country, applying for aid/bursaries or interest free loans until 9 months after graduation does not require proof of parents income as those are given by private foundations and banks. The foundations do their own check for bursaries.

 

I have known many girls in college during my time who had to pay their way while their brothers tuition were paid for. They are in college because teachers and schools helped with college applications and high school exam fees.

 

Locally kids register for SAT, SAT subjects and ACT online. They register for AP in school. Who pays for the girls whose parents don't want to pay but are not on free/reduced lunch in which case the school pays? I really don't know.

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Ugh. Even if a girl never winds up using her degree/training in the paid workforce, I'm still a proponent of her getting one. Now I do think she should be more cautious about taking on debt for it than for someone who aspires to a lucrative career.

 

Life is uncertain and there are plenty of degrees that would allow for PT and/or home-based employment. The woman of Psalm 31 helped support her family so it's definitely Biblical for women to hold employment.

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Yes it is really frustrating.  I loved my dad very much but I was so hurt and angry when he told me he was a bit disappointed that I didn't find a husband in college, as if all my hard academic work wasn't anything to be proud of (although thinking back on it I don't think he meant it exactly that way).  I didn't go to college to find a husband, Dad, I went for my career.  When I told him that he was surprised, which also really irked me.

 

And marriage as your plan for support is never a sure thing.  People get injured, people get killed, people get sick, people divorce, people get laid off...  I would much rather my children, both of them, had a range of skills they could fall back on, as well as some sort of primary career.  No one can predict the future.

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That still happens?! I would love my daughters to find a great husband and be homemakers like me if they enjoy that, but I'm not shutting down their interest in autocad or composing because it might conflict with being at home, and I'm not giving them any more or less support than their brothers.

 

I honestly figured that was a non-issue even for very religiously conservative families these days, in this particular culture. Sad!

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That just makes me so sad.  While my dad had his fair share of sexist attitudes (a product of his time), education and careers were not included in that group.  My dad discouraged me from going into a field that was typically low paying and considered "women's work" because he wanted more for me.  He wanted me to be able to support myself and not need to depend on anyone.  He worked with women who were smarter and better than him.  He mentored women who went on to be his boss.  I think his attitudes were shaped by the fact that his dad died when he was 9 and he saw how his mom struggled - she had to take in laundry to help make ends meet and my dad did hard manual labor from his early teens. 

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I totally agree with you (it drive me up a wall and breaks my heart). But why just "all of us in ps." Do you mean public school? I'd think it would be bothersome to many people, regardless of schooling choice...

 

ps was mentioned because that's where I am at the moment - and where these kids are - and where it's been the discussion among us teachers/guidance, etc.  That part is causing the vent.

 

I certainly have no problem with homeschoolers (or private schoolers) agreeing with me!

 

Why would this be controversial? Or limited to ps for that matter. Not saying that you actually said it was limited. Sounds to me like the boy is being encouraged to pursue some higher ed or career and the girl is not?

 

The older sister has run into problems for years, even becoming suicidal over it.  She applied to colleges on her own (and was accepted), but may be unable to go now due to financial issues (dad doesn't want her going and college is pricey).

 

Younger brother, at least, will not have these problems, but older sister shouldn't either.  

 

Controversial as I know some (on here) still agree with this pattern.

 

Completely agree. It is medieval. I had never encountered such thinking growing up and was quite shocked to see how prevalent it is in some circles here.

 

Fortunately, it's not prevalent at my school, but unfortunately, it does hit a few gals now and then.  It sickens me every single time.  Sickens might not be the right word.  Angers?  This gal could have such a different life if she's gotten a better birth lottery draw.

 

Honestly I would say I see this attitude as being far more common in some homeschooling circles than I do in public school. Every so often it comes up on this board (along the lines of "Dd wants to be a (insert profession) but my husband doesn't think women should have careers").

 

And at least in public schools girls in that situation have access to all the same classes and have to meet the same graduation requirements which can hold some doors open to them should they chose to pursue them later. For girls who don't go to public schools and whose parents limit their high school education to consumer math and homemaking, it is much harder to catch up and go to college if they tell their parents to shove it as young adults. Easier to start college as an adult when you don't have to first do all of the high school level learning. Also girls from families like that in public school are potentially exposed to other possibilities from teachers and peers.

 

If I had a child who didn't want a career at all, I'd still see to it he or she was college/trade school/apprenticeship ready before 18 should there be a change of heart.

 

I think parents like that perpetrating child abuse.

 

Those are definitely pros of ps as she has multiple friends and plenty of us teachers who care about her and cheer her on.  But I'll admit to wondering how much it helps vs emphasizes what she doesn't have and others do - definitely hurting her mental well-being.

 

We keep telling her that once she graduates she's on her own.  That's true, but it's going to be a financial struggle she shouldn't have to deal with on top of the family struggle.  More than once I've seen the gal give in due to no other options.  I'm not sure I've seen a situation that has truly worked out super well.

 

Oh boy! Good thing I haven't witnessed much of that. Male or female, the sky IS the limit, as long as we are all doing what God is calling us to do :)

 

We witness, and can't do much.  (sigh)

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Agree. It breaks my heart. But I find it interesting that you're seeing that in ps. I guess I didn't realize this line of thinking was common anywhere other than certain homeschool circles. My dd's have been constantly under fire from peers (young people who are only parroting their own parents) for choosing to leave home for higher education. Many of these girls argue vigorously that they don't need an education because they are only going to get married and have children. Again, they're only repeating what their parents have drilled into them. It makes me terribly sad. 

Edited by Jane Elliot
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That still happens?! I would love my daughters to find a great husband and be homemakers like me if they enjoy that, but I'm not shutting down their interest in autocad or composing because it might conflict with being at home, and I'm not giving them any more or less support than their brothers.

 

I honestly figured that was a non-issue even for very religiously conservative families these days, in this particular culture. Sad!

 

I wish I could say it doesn't happen anymore.

 

Fortunately, it's not the majority, but I think that might make it harder for those who have to endure it.

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My dad was born in 1916 but he encouraged me to not to think in terms of "women's work."  I remember telling him about a career day thing in high school - I was going to a law office to shadow the legal secretary. He said "don't be the secretary, be the lawyer." 

 

What a great dad!

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I have to say I've seen this more in the homeschool world. I never understand how presumably the females would be the next generation of home educators and how their being ignorant was a benefit to the grandchildren. Of course, truly valuing a quality education isn't really present with this crowd, either, so there ya go.

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It's extremely bothersome to ALL of us in ps when a family encourages the sky being the limit for their sons and severely limits their daughter's aspirations to do much of anything.

 

It doesn't do much for the gal's sense of being either.  (sigh)

 

Gals (or guys) choosing to do something is one thing.  Either being forced to do something is an entirely different matter in all ways.

 

Being female, my heart really goes out to some gals and what they have to live with until they are adults.  I'm sure the scars carry over too.

 

Anyone can argue all they want, but that's how I feel - point blank.

 

Off my soapbox.

 

Not long ago a mom was bemoaning with me that her oldest daughter was going off to graduate school. Granted, she's living with a relative, but she's going out-of-state.

 

She said, "Now I know that she truly never will get married, and I just can't accept it. With a master's, no one will want her."

 

And there I stood, a happily married woman with multiple degrees.

 

I've talked frequently with this young lady and know that she has all kinds of opportunity and a clear path forward. If a guy comes along, that will be great, but she's OK if it doesn't happen too. She already has multiple job possibilities when she graduates that will work with living at home, which is what is expected of her.

 

Her sister also earned skills-based degree with immediate employment prospects, but has ended up taking care of an elderly woman. That's very kind of her, but I have to wonder what her prospects are going to be when the woman dies. I can hear an interviewer saying, "So you earned this degree and then you did nothing in your field for three years? You're out-of-date!"

 

There's also a sister still at home who apparently just keeps house after graduating from high school.

 

I just don't know. Really.

 

I don't get it.

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I was lucky - my mom always used to tell me I should be a lawyer.  Even though both of my parents were high school dropouts.  :P  My mom had a job working for a lady lawyer who she thought was the bomb.

 

My dad would never discourage his kids' dreams, male or female.

 

A friend once shared her grades with me.  She was proud of her B in algebra.  "My dad says that's really good for a girl."  Even at the time I was horrified.

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LOL about not being able to marry with advanced degrees.  What can I say, I have three post-graduate credentials and have never been married.  :P  That said, if I'm gonna be single, I'd rather be able to earn a living than not.  It also comes in handy when raising the kids I adopted.

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I can't even imagine this happening outside of a Duggar-like cult. I had never even heard of it happening in modern times, until I came to this board.

 

I am sorry you are dealing with it. It must be so difficult to watch. I guess you just focus on coping skills, coping skills, coping skills, and remind her, as with so much of growing up in a bad situation, it gets better.

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Years later, I see some of these same girls miserable with the way their lives have turned out. And still, there are girls in our circle who remain oblivious to the fact that realizing a life's goal of "getting married and having kids" is completely dependent on numerous factors that are entirely outside one's control.

Edited by Jane Elliot
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Honestly I would say I see this attitude as being far more common in some homeschooling circles than I do in public school. Every so often it comes up on this board (along the lines of "Dd wants to be a (insert profession) but my husband doesn't think women should have careers").

 

And at least in public schools girls in that situation have access to all the same classes and have to meet the same graduation requirements which can hold some doors open to them should they chose to pursue them later. For girls who don't go to public schools and whose parents limit their high school education to consumer math and homemaking, it is much harder to catch up and go to college if they tell their parents to shove it as young adults. Easier to start college as an adult when you don't have to first do all of the high school level learning. Also girls from families like that in public school are potentially exposed to other possibilities from teachers and peers.

 

If I had a child who didn't want a career at all, I'd still see to it he or she was college/trade school/apprenticeship ready before 18 should there be a change of heart.

 

I think parents like that perpetrating child abuse.

 

What came to mind to me was a parent not wanting their child to take AP classes or advanced math, etc. You can finish public school without ever touching certain subjects (Calculus for example).

 

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Not long ago a mom was bemoaning with me that her oldest daughter was going off to graduate school. Granted, she's living with a relative, but she's going out-of-state.

 

She said, "Now I know that she truly never will get married, and I just can't accept it. With a master's, no one will want her."

 

Huh???? Under what rock do those people live??? That attitude is just bizarre.

Plenty of men feel attracted to, and marry, smart, highly educated women.

I wonder what kind of men this woman knows.

 

FWIW, all my female colleagues and fellow grad students with PhDs in physics are married. I guess we took all the men who could stand educated women...

Edited by regentrude
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Years later, I see some of these same girls miserable with the way their lives have turned out. And still, there are girls in our circle who remain oblivious to the fact that realizing a life's goal of "getting married and having kids" is completely dependent on numerous factors that are entirely outside one's control.

Absolutely this. And it comes back to haunt so many of the women locally when their husbands leave them, or get sick/injured/killed, and they were never properly prepared to consider and embrace a life that looks very different from the one they were told was the ideal. Those kinds of big life things are hard for anyone, but it is doubly hard when you've been taught that this is the only "right" way for a woman to live.

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My dad was born in 1916 but he encouraged me to not to think in terms of "women's work."  I remember telling him about a career day thing in high school - I was going to a law office to shadow the legal secretary. He said "don't be the secretary, be the lawyer." 

I worked with an industrial designer--she would be about 55 now--whose father had not allowed her to learn how to type.  He was afraid she would be limited to secretarial roles if she could type.

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Blech. That's just wrong.

 

Now, the only thing I would caution my children about is the amount of student loans they take out. If any of my children are planning to be stay at home parents themselves (and it's more likely to be the girl, simply because more moms tend to stay at home than dads, in general, but it could be any of them; dads can stay at home too, and we had a friend who was planning to be a SAH/homeschool dad after the first couple of years -- they planned for his wife to SAH with babies, and then he'd SAH and homeschool), I would seriously caution them about student loans and college. I am completely in favor of going to college for college's sake if that's what you want to do, even if you aren't intending on a career from college (I certainly enjoyed getting my degree, even while planning to be a SAH/HS mom), but I would not want student loans to be the reason that a parent wasn't able to stay at home, especially with very young children.

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Not that many years ago there were some people on this board who talked like this. I remember reading a post that said the person's dd didn't need much math in high school. The girls in the family were simply encouraged to work on "home life" skills and play piano. 

 

I knew people in high school whose parents funded male children's educations, but not female. I was appalled then. I'm still appalled. 

 

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We keep telling her that once she graduates she's on her own.  That's true, but it's going to be a financial struggle she shouldn't have to deal with on top of the family struggle.  More than once I've seen the gal give in due to no other options.  I'm not sure I've seen a situation that has truly worked out super well.

 

 

We witness, and can't do much.  (sigh)

 

Creekland, could you or a guidance counselor suggest that she look into enlisting? doing a volunteer year with AmeriCorps (although the benefits are nowhere near as good as enlisting)?

 

Could they go to CC and then transfer or are the CCs in your state not very good?

 

If they're not good or very expensive or don't have good transfer agreements, could these girls get started with the EdX/ASU for credit MOOCs? The classes cost $600 for ASU credit and you can go all the way to a BS or BA from ASU bit by bit. If they can get a job at Starbucks, they'll pay for the last two years and have advisors for their staff members to help navigate the ASU program. That might be a good stealth way to go to college without their parents needing to know.

 

If their parents wouldn't let them get a job, could they study for CLEPs on their own? TBH, if they aren't allowed to work, you'll probably have to slip them the number for an domestic abuse shelter for them to get out. At that point it goes well past educational choices into domestic abuse.

 

:grouphug:

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Obviously, in some homeschool circles it's pretty overt. Girls should only do x,y, or z. Boys can do anything when they grow up.

 

But society wide, I see it in so many subtle ways. Girls gently steered toward "easier" careers. Boys encouraged to dream big. Girls told things may just be too hard for them. Boys told to work harder. Girls warned that they'll face all kinds of obstacles and to think about their choices. Boys told everything will work out no matter what. And all this happens while overtly parents and other adults claim that girls can do anything. They don't even realize the extent to which they're pushing this agenda.

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I know a number of homeschool families like this. The difference is that they don't SAY it. They may not even realize it. But they do not challenge their girls at all while their boys are encouraged in challenging pursuits. It is SO amazing the number of families I know where one or more or all of their girls is considered "just not as smart" and is terribly behind. Never mind that less is expected of the girls and they are TOLD they aren't good at school from a young age. It's frustrating to watch. 

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My grandmother always told me to take typing classes so I could get a job as a secretary and support my dh in school. Irony is, she thought that was encouraging. It was demotivating.

My mother didn't say anything about anything .

My girls can comfortably support their families on their own salary if ever the need arises. They also like what they do.

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That said, if I'm gonna be single, I'd rather be able to earn a living than not.  It also comes in handy when raising the kids I adopted.

 

That's my concern. Life "happens." You don't get married, your husband dies, your husband leaves, etc. etc. 

 

And then you're working at Wal-Mart, worrying about your hours getting cut.

 

There are other subtle advantages -- broader exposure to ideas, better understanding of others unlike yourself, and a broader picture of life.

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I know a families like this in homeschooling.  I think it's downright scary for the girls.  They are all going to live at home too until they get married.   I just hope they don't get stuck in an abusive situation down the road.  How powerless to have no skills.  I think homemaking is wonderful, but to me everyone needs to the option to survive (and thrive) on their own.

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I totally agree with you. As a matter of fact, my dd15 and I discussed this over lunch today. She has a couple of female friends who had college and career aspirations, but each one's boyfriend wants her to be a stay-at-home wife and mother. Both girls have stated that they agreed to do so if that's "what he wants." My dd15 is livid. Now, granted, I am a stay-at-home wife and mom, and we homeschool; but it's MY choice. I do have a college degree and taught in the public school system for seven years. If I wanted to go back (which I do NOT), my husband would be fine with that. I feel like these girls are being shortchanged. It is wrong.

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