Update Post #1: Need help with SIL

[MeghanL]

Thank you all for your help. My SIL, BIL, DH & myself all talked on the phone tonight. It went better than I could have ever hoped. We are talking, we are clearing up all kinds of misinterpretations, hurts, etc. I really do feel that it was able to come to such a positive place because of all the feedback you gave me. By keeping in mind the perspectives you offered, I feel like I was able to get to a place of active listening and not need to defend myself. We all got to speak, listen and come to an understanding that we all did the best we could with what we had. So, thank you. We can move forward in a much more positive way and I think we will all be so much closer because of it. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by MeghanL

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would suggest that your dh reach out to his brother and suggest that she get some grief counseling and see a doctor.  She is hurting badly and it doesn't sound rational any more.  It could be PPD since of course she still has those hormones etc. 

[MeghanL]

Counseling for her has been encouraged and suggested by everyone she knows. She's either not seeking it, or it's not helping.

[Catwoman]

I would step away from the situation and stop trying to reconcile with her. You have already gone above and beyond what most people would do.

 

I hope your SIL is getting professional help, but it's not your responsibility to keep tolerating her nastiness.

[Guest]

I agree this sounds like a personal problem and the response isn't proportional or rational. They need some outside help and to forgive. You did your part to try reaching out, again and again. Give it time and leave them to their own devices. At this point you can't do anything but let them come to you and I'm not sure you need to.

 

Grief isn't an excuse to treat everyone else like sh*t in perpetuity. And she sounds a little unhinged, which does make me think PPD or even PPP. Worrying another child will kill yours is psychotic, and above your pay grade. If she still talks with MIL that is who I'd recommend mentions getting some treatment, so they can function and heal and she isn't trapped in a prison of grief and, worse, not able to even trust her own emotions and mind to be sound.

 

I've had bad PPD twice. When I mentioned it in hindsight people confirmed they could see it, and yet nobody said a word. I suffered months because I didn't realize I was sick and nobody stepped in and helped me. She doesn't need that on top of a dead baby, and it sounds like you're not able to move forward with this relationship as she is now. So I second the help recommendation. In the meantime sit tight and don't take it personally. This is them, not you.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Arctic Mama

[MomatHWTK]

FWIW, a text while I was in the hospital under those circumstances would  not have been well-received by me.  Rational or not, she probably now attaches that communication style and you in general to a very bad memory. She may be overwhelmed by triggers still.

 

Let her work through her issues.  Your hurt feelings aren't the big issue here- you know why and what she is going through, so getting hurt by it is pointless.  Step back, don't press and don't try to fix things.  If your focus is on how you are having trouble being forgiving over these temporary slights by a person who is suffering a devastating loss- then you are in no position to help that person.  And yeah, I can see being fearful of losing another child after such an experience.  It probably is a combination of PTSD and PPD, so either accept and offer allowances or step back.  

 

  IMO, you aren't giving her nearly enough time to work through what she needs to work through.  Everyone's ability to handle something like that is different.  It may take years.  

 

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by MomatHWTK

[Jean in Newcastle]

Counseling for her has been encouraged and suggested by everyone she knows. She's either not seeking it, or it's not helping.

 

She needs medical help more than counseling in my opinion.  Or at least a medical check to rule out PPD or PPP

[Junie]

I think she is grieving differently than what you did when you experienced loss.  It sounds like she wants to be close to her own family, but stay distant (at least for now) from her husband's family.  I don't think this is necessarily bad; it just sounds like what she can handle.

 

As for her being afraid that your children would hurt her son...  I think that she is just plain terrified that something will happen to the only child she has living.

It sounds like her coping mechanism is to be overly protective.  Honestly, I would probably be the same way in that situation...

 

 

 

edited for grammar.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Junie

[Guest]

You can not know what she needs at this point. It sounds like you just barely know one another under regular circumstances, and much less so now, after a traumatizing event.

 

IMO, you shouldn't have texted her. You should have shown up, physically, because your husband was unable to do so Additionally, or instead of that (but definitely for sure), your husband should have been on the phone asap with his brother.

 

But now the past is the past. I think you should stop trying to figure out what she needs, and decide what you are capable of giving to her emotionally. If you can ignore the slight craziness of her fear irt your kids at Christmas, and welcome your BIL warmly...even if that's ALL you can do, it is a kindness, under the circumstances.

 

She is probably doing her square best in life right now, and do keep in mind that SHE is the one who went through this thing, not you. Being graceful despite your frustration is not taking abuse from them. And as long as they don't turn ugly toward you, I think you need to figure out what you can give them, as I said above, and do it without comment.

[happypamama]

Don't take it personally. I expect it has nothing to do with you or your children, and everything to do with their recent painful recognition of the fragility of life. They also may not be able to handle seeing your multiple children when they're so badly missing and grieving their own little one and the loss of siblinghood for their living son. My brother and SIL's second child was a 35 week stillbirth when my second child was just under a year old (and yes, we feel it every year when their birthdays come around a few days apart, even though it's been almost a decade). It would have been totally expected if they had been uncomfortable by the sight of my baby. And anything they felt regarding their living child was completely understandable, even if it didn't make logical sense. Parents who are grieving a child may have a different sense of logic, and it has nothing to do with us or our children. Give them time and patience. It does sound like she could benefit from some counseling, but I think you just need to let them attend or not attend as they feel comfortable and not read too much into it.

 

They (and you, and your ILs) will find a new normal. You will all laugh and be happy again. Their little one will not be forgotten, and they will always miss him and feel sad, but the rawness of the grief will not be as sharp. In time.

 

(Also, my hugs to you and your family. I found it a strange place to be, as the aunt. My niece is a blood relative of mine. I miss her too, and it was lousy that this was one thing I couldn't fix for my beloved little brother. I can't claim to miss her the way my brother and SIL do, and I'd never claim to feel the same loss and pain that they do, nor that my parents, her grandparents do. But she's missing from my cousin photos and my holiday memories too. It seemed wrong to say that I felt the same pain and wrong to say that I didn't. So my sympathies to you; I wanted to validate whatever feelings YOU are having and to tell you that you've been very sweet to them, and I'm sorry this is a sadness on your holiday too.)

[MeghanL]

You can not know what she needs at this point. It sounds like you just barely know one another under regular circumstances, and much less so now, after a traumatizing event.

 

IMO, you shouldn't have texted her. You should have shown up, physically, because your husband was unable to do so Additionally, or instead of that (but definitely for sure), your husband should have been on the phone asap with his brother.

 

But now the past is the past. I think you should stop trying to figure out what she needs, and decide what you are capable of giving to her emotionally. If you can ignore the slight craziness of her fear irt your kids at Christmas, and welcome your BIL warmly...even if that's ALL you can do, it is a kindness, under the circumstances.

 

She is probably doing her square best in life right now, and do keep in mind that SHE is the one who went through this thing, not you. Being graceful despite your frustration is not taking abuse from them. And as long as they don't turn ugly toward you, I think you need to figure out what you can give them, as I said above, and do it without comment.

Texting has been our only form of communication for the past 8 years. 

 

I could not physically show up at the hospital because I had to care for my husband. He had just gotten out of surgery. 

 

She has already turned ugly to us. 

 

I guess I was hoping there would be a third option other than 1) keep taking the abuse because she is grieving or 2) cut her out of our life. 

[zoobie]

You can not know what she needs at this point. It sounds like you just barely know one another under regular circumstances, and much less so now, after a traumatizing event.

 

IMO, you shouldn't have texted her. You should have shown up, physically, because your husband was unable to do so Additionally, or instead of that (but definitely for sure), your husband should have been on the phone asap with his brother.

 

But now the past is the past. I think you should stop trying to figure out what she needs, and decide what you are capable of giving to her emotionally. If you can ignore the slight craziness of her fear irt your kids at Christmas, and welcome your BIL warmly...even if that's ALL you can do, it is a kindness, under the circumstances.

 

She is probably doing her square best in life right now, and do keep in mind that SHE is the one who went through this thing, not you. Being graceful despite your frustration is not taking abuse from them. And as long as they don't turn ugly toward you, I think you need to figure out what you can give them, as I said above, and do it without comment.

Did you read that her husband had surgery and was doped up and unable to move for several days at the time? She was caring for him and their children. Texting, if it's the normal form of communication, is what I would expect at that moment. I personally wouldn't want intrusive calls or visitors in the hospital.

 

OP, I would back off entirely from the SIL and let your DH work on this with his brother.

[Carol in Cal.]

It would hurt my feelings quite a bit to receive only 'delegated' messages from an inlaw but not from my sibling directly in those kinds of circumstances.  So although I think SIL is WAAAAY OTT in this ongoing drama, I also think that your husband should have contacted her and his brother directly himself in addition to your good wishes, right after this happened. 

 

Having said that, SIL's response is quite extreme, and I agree with others who say that she is probably suffering from PTSD and maybe PPD.  Having such a late pregnancy loss takes a very long time to recover from, but she's just plain being mean.  I don't believe for one minute that she is really afraid for her child's life, but rather that she is saying that as a way to make her repugnance someone else's fault.  I think that the smart move would be to strengthen your husband and his brother's relationship and hope that the ancillary ones will fall into place over time. 

[gardenmom5]

without reading any other replies -

it sounds as though she is not dealing with her grief in a healthy manner - but is putting it into anger, and you and your dh are convenient targets.  please do not take it personally- this is not about you, or anything you did or didn't do.  this is about her focusing on anger, instead of healthy grieving.  it's purely an avoidance technique.  by focusing on anger - she doens't have to deal with her hurt from losing a baby.
 

[MeghanL]

I neglected to mention this in my OP, but I think it is becoming relevant information that my DH is autistic and is working 2 jobs. Had my BIL called my DH and wanted to talk, he would have been there. The *second* he had even an inkling that he might have hurt his brother by not calling, he called, 3 times, without response. My BIL has said on numerous occasions that he has no hurt feelings whatsoever about the ways and times we reached out. 

[MeghanL]

without reading any other replies -

it sounds as though she is not dealing with her grief in a healthy manner - but is putting it into anger, and you and your dh are convenient targets.  please do not take it personally- this is not about you, or anything you did or didn't do.  this is about her focusing on anger, instead of healthy grieving.  it's purely an avoidance technique.  by focusing on anger - she doens't have to deal with her hurt from losing a baby.

 

 

I think this is exactly right.

 

I get that logically, I shouldn't take it personally. In reality, the things she has said and done really hurt. Especially since our intent all along has been to support them. 

[goldberry]

I agree she is having some issues.

 

I will say that I understand her feelings about the messages coming from you instead of your husband.  In our family, there is a family member that the wife tried very hard to keep connections with the husband's family.  The husband really didn't give a crap, and it was obvious because all the actions were done by the wife.  That is NOT the case with your husband, but I see how it could be perceived that way.  

 

My take is to still reach out on an occasional basis (to limit the abuse you may receive) but don't give up all together.  

Edited December 11, 2015 by goldberry

[kitten18]

Texting has been our only form of communication for the past 8 years.

 

I could not physically show up at the hospital because I had to care for my husband. He had just gotten out of surgery.

 

She has already turned ugly to us.

 

I guess I was hoping there would be a third option other than 1) keep taking the abuse because she is grieving or 2) cut her out of our life.

What abuse?

She doesn't want to spend time with her husbands family right now.

His family should continue to make kind gestures but just follow her lead and accept whatever contact she is willing to have right now.

[Carol in Cal.]

I still think he should have initiated that first contact ASAP, not after waiting to hear that there was an issue.  It's nice of his brother to forgive him for that, but SIL doesn't know him as well and also was the primary bereaved, even more so than her husband.  This is just basic, foundational family support stuff.

 

34 weeks is a fully formed baby, not even dangerously premature.  That's a major, rocking blow, to lose a baby like that, and especially since often a cord wrap issue is detectable (by decreased kicking) while the baby is still alive, and can be addressed with a C section, saving the baby's life; so there is almost certainly an element of self-blame in there with the grief. 

 

No question about it, SIL is OTT and sulky and carrying this way too far, doing the misery loves company thing to death, but still, IMO, her BIL should have stepped up proactively and quickly with at least a card or phone call, surgery or not. 

[gardenmom5]

I neglected to mention this in my OP, but I think it is becoming relevant information that my DH is autistic and is working 2 jobs. Had my BIL called my DH and wanted to talk, he would have been there. The *second* he had even an inkling that he might have hurt his brother by not calling, he called, 3 times, without response. My BIL has said on numerous occasions that he has no hurt feelings whatsoever about the ways and times we reached out. 

 

it's hard to know what's the truth - and what isn't.  your bil could be okay with it all, and it's  just your sil who is engaging in ott drama. (or, your bil could be lying about how he really feels.)  whether she tends to that all the time, or this is ppd/ppp, is unknown.  even though her pg hormones should have returned to normal by now (she's not bf), they could have seriously messed up her brain chemistry, and things could still be out of whack.  I agree, she probably needs to at least be checked for depression by a dr.

 

but whatever - this is NOT about you.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by gardenmom5

[MeghanL]

 but still, IMO, her BIL should have stepped up proactively and quickly with at least a card or phone call, surgery or not. 

 

He did send her a card. There was a card enclosed in the ornament we sent. Is the problem the card was signed by both of us instead of just him? 

[SproutMamaK]

I think there IS a happy medium between "take her abuse" and "cut them off". You just... drop the ball. You don't get in touch with them or try desperately to arrange things or make them right. The ball is in their court, whenever they're ready. If they get nasty through other people, don't take it personally; you've done everything you can and however much they may point it in your direction, their anger is not about you. Let them take the lead from her on out. That may mean a long time with no contact, and that's okay; that may be what they need right now. And even when they ARE ready, it may be tense the first time because clearly you guys feel like an easy target for her, and that can be difficult to shift away from. But hopefully it will get a little bit better each time.

[bettyandbob]

I think the SIL needs counseling.

 

However, i think handling the situation by text was a big mistake. I think if you want try something at this point your dh needs to see her at her home and say directly to her he's sorry he wasn't supportive at the time. He can't go back and fix his behavior, but he does want her, her family, her child part of his life. And ask her to forgive him. He shouldn't mention your miscarriages or his surgeries. Then, just wait. It may take years, but he will have tried.

[gardenmom5]

I think there IS a happy medium between "take her abuse" and "cut them off". You just... drop the ball. You don't get in touch with them or try desperately to arrange things or make them right. The ball is in their court, whenever they're ready. If they get nasty through other people, don't take it personally; you've done everything you can and however much they may point it in your direction, their anger is not about you. Let them take the lead from her on out. That may mean a long time with no contact, and that's okay; that may be what they need right now. And even when they ARE ready, it may be tense the first time because clearly you guys feel like an easy target for her, and that can be difficult to shift away from. But hopefully it will get a little bit better each time.

 

I'd suggest if they get nasty through other people who then pass it on to you:  just say something along the lines of "i'm sorry she's having a rough time.  would you like some bean dip?"  this puts it back on her, without lowering yourself to her level.   those passing on the message will get the reminder- it's not you, it's her.  she isn't dealing with her grief.  it will also enable you to keep future doors open.

 

I had an experience where I was the proverbial messenger that got shot.  I kept the door open by dropping a very brief note once a month or so.  just a "hi, how are you, isn't ___ funny?"  kept it very brief and lighthearted.  six months later, the person acted as though she'd never been angry.  big eyeroll.  she wasn't close enough I ever took her actions personally.  my point being, it's possible to keep doors open, without subjecting yourself to nastiness.

[Carol in Cal.]

He did send her a card. There was a card enclosed in the ornament we sent. Is the problem the card was signed by both of us instead of just him? 

No, it's that it wasn't right away.

It was a wonderful idea, very thoughtful, but by then the damage was done.

 

Having said that, again, SIL is behaving very badly at this point, and way OTT.  You and yours don't deserve this.

[mathnerd]

We are comfortable with our coolness and have very active lives with amazing people, so we don't feel the need to force either of these families to interact with us if they don't want to. We're friendly when we see each other, but we're not close in any sense of the word.

In my opinion, the bolded above answers your questions for you. It does not sound like you have a really close relationship with the SIL and family. You have tried your best and your efforts do not seem sufficient in their eyes - I suggest that you let it rest and move on. If you run into them, be polite and courteous. One day sooner or later their anger or resentment will evaporate when they realize that there are no more inputs coming from your end to stoke the issues. Let them handle their grief in their own way - whether SIL needs counseling, medical help etc is their own personal decision. It is OK if their child will not be allowed to play with yours - as you said, you are comfortable with the coolness. Just ignore all the indirect messages that they send through your ILs.

[mamiof5]

What a confusing and sad situation. Maybe she's just finding someone to blame? Just to direct her sadness, anger, her feelings overall? I agree that an immediate phone call from your dh to his brother would have been nice, but I mean, you both reached out in different ways and we are all human. Besides, you were also dealing with recovery from surgery at the time. An apology for not calling would be enough for me, I think I'd try to move on, but that's me. For now I agree with someone who suggested to drop the ball. Don't exclude them from your life, keep inviting them to those not very often family events when you got together, but it is her decision to attend or not. And don't take it personal. Oh, and I totally agree with the fact that she needs counseling, but if I was you I'd never bring it up or have dh bring it up to his brother, she might take offense to that. One last thought, I'd probably note the date of their loss in my calendar and acknowledge the anniversary through a "thinking of you" note when the time comes.

[AmandaVT]

I think she needs help as well - sounds like she's having a hard time with the grief. 

 

To be clear, your SIL isn't your brother's sister, but his SIL as well right? So, I don't see it as a slight, especially since he was recovering from surgery at the time! 

 

I'd back off and let them come to you. But I don't think you did anything wrong. *hugs*

[MeghanL]

No, it's that it wasn't right away.

It was a wonderful idea, very thoughtful, but by then the damage was done.

 

Having said that, again, SIL is behaving very badly at this point, and way OTT.  You and yours don't deserve this.

It was right away. 

We sent it before she was home from the hospital.

[prairiewindmomma]

I am really, really trying to let this go, but need some help in moving past it. If you can offer some insight I would greatly appreciate it!

 

 

I think the real question is, what do YOU need to be able to move forward if reconciliation isn't imminent on the horizon?  She's grieving, she's not being rational, she isn't ready to reconcile..... Where does your head need to be to just acknowledge the ball is in her court and be able to grant her some grace and walk away and be ok with the state of things?

 

I've been in a very similar dynamic, and for me, being able to let things go and be at peace within myself has been the best strategy.... What do you need to do within yourself get to that place?

[gardenmom5]

No, it's that it wasn't right away.

It was a wonderful idea, very thoughtful, but by then the damage was done.

 

Having said that, again, SIL is behaving very badly at this point, and way OTT.  You and yours don't deserve this.

 

right away would have been when he was having surgery, early days afterwards recovering.  it's hard in the best of circumstances to expend that energy.  i know, btdt.  I LITERALLY was informed while I was in the recovery room my mother was in the ccu downstairs.  she didn't know I was having surgery - and I didn't want her to know.  (my nurses were great at helping me visit her the next day, and making me look "normal".)

 

considering how the sil is behaving - I'd wager she'll take any excuse to be angry about something so she doesn't have to face the pain of losing an infant.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by gardenmom5

[TammyS]

My insight is this: waaaaaayyyyyyyy too much triangulation going on here. 

 

Everyone is talking to someone else about a 3rd parties thoughts, feelings, reasons, etc.  That is absolutely the recipe for problems. 

 

I don't know if anything can be fixed here or not.  But if you want my advice, from this point forward, you make it your 100% policy that you only talk to the person about that person (or their feelings, or their reasons, or whatever).  As soon as soon as someone says, "SIL is going to...." Just put your hand up and say, "You know, I prefer to keep communications direct.  SIL knows how to find me if she wants to tell me something."  And then you do the same.  Don't offer an opinion to MIL about what is going on with SIL. 

 

Once you have that policy in place, the next policy I would put in place is voice communication only.  Telephone or in person.  No email, no text.  People behave in email and text in ways they just wouldn't if they had to put it our of their own mouths directly to the person.  It will save you a lot of grief.

 

Finally, ask yourself what you want from SIL.  Is there something she can give you (a coffee date?  an informal pizza dinner at either home or a restaurant?) right now that you can call and ask for?  Figure out what you want, and then use your voice to call and ask for it.  Be prepared to be disappointed the first couple of times.  But I would offer something to her maybe 3 times, and then reevaluate what you are doing.

 

Ok, finally, finally....don't guess about motivations or intent.  I'm sure some of it is caught up in her grief, but also people just act strangely sometimes, we get things wrong sometimes, we say it in a way we didn't mean sometimes, etc.  It's best if you just take people at face value, without trying to read subtext, and without giving out subtext of your own.  Just call and really say what you  really mean, and believe her, even if it's not your first instinct.

 

 

[MeghanL]

 

To be clear, your SIL isn't your brother's sister, but his SIL as well right? So, I don't see it as a slight, especially since he was recovering from surgery at the time! 

 

Correct. It's his brother's wife. And, really, in the 8 years they've been married, I'm not sure they've ever said more than "pass the peas" to eat other. At family gatherings, she & I would chat and our husbands would run off and hang out with their youngest brother (who is significantly younger). 

 

I'm hearing everything you guys are saying. My take-aways at this point is:

1. My DH should have called his brother, despite being on strong pain meds & recovering from surgery. 

2. We need to just let things lie and wait and see if we ever see her again.

3. My DH needs to keep working at building a relationship with his brother.

 

I can live with that.

[Carol in Cal.]

It was right away. 

We sent it before she was home from the hospital.

Respectfully, I don't think that is right away.

But I still think that SIL is behaving badly.

[MeghanL]

right away would have been when he was having surgery, early days afterwards recovering.  it's hard in the best of circumstances to expend that energy.  i know, btdt.  I LITERALLY was informed while I was in the recovery room my mother was in the ccu downstairs.  she didn't know I was having surgery - and I didn't want her to know.  (my nurses were great at helping me visit her the next day, and making me look "normal".)

 

considering how the sil is behaving - I'd wager she'll take any excuse to be angry about something so she doesn't have to face the pain of losing an infant.

 

He picked out the ornament while he was laying prone on the couch. He signed the card the same day. I hit the "submit order" button, but that was about it. I don't know how much sooner we could have sent it for it to be "right away".

[MeghanL]

Respectfully, I don't think that is right away.

But I still think that SIL is behaving badly.

 

What would have been right away? I'm honestly not sure how it could have been sent any earlier.

[kitten18]

Correct. It's his brother's wife. And, really, in the 8 years they've been married, I'm not sure they've ever said more than "pass the peas" to eat other. At family gatherings, she & I would chat and our husbands would run off and hang out with their youngest brother (who is significantly younger).

 

I'm hearing everything you guys are saying. My take-aways at this point is:

1. My DH should have called his brother, despite being on strong pain meds & recovering from surgery.

2. We need to just let things lie and wait and see if we ever see her again.

3. My DH needs to keep working at building a relationship with his brother.

 

I can live with that.

I don't agree with #1. I think what you did was fine.

 

I just think you have to do 2 and 3 and hopefully she will heal and be ready to spend more time with her dh's family again at some point.

[ErinE]

Gently, I'd be very angry if, having suffered the death of a child, my husband went to his family's Thanksgiving dinner rather than spend it with our remaining child and me. She might not have wanted to be around all those people who would treat her as a grieving mother. Had it been me, I would have encouraged BIL to spend the day with his wife and child once I found out his wife wasn't coming. Rather than focus on her husband, she might be directing her anger to the people who invited him.

 

Very gently, this isn't about you, your husband, or your children. She's angry. Why wasn't her husband's brother there for them? Why is she hearing from her BIL's wife? Why did her child die? There's probably a long list of things she's angry about and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

 

Let her heal. Be kind, but don't take abuse. Give her time and keep reaching out to BIL.

Edited December 11, 2015 by ErinE

[Anne in CA]

Some people lash out at others when they are unhappy. They usually pick the safest person to lash out at. She needs her family, your family is expendable to her. You don't need to take her abuse. She sounds a little delusional right now. I didn't know PPD included beling delusional, but I guess it might. Reasoning with somone who wants to rewrite history is never possible. It just isn't. They want to vent anger, they don't want to make up. They want others to hurt the way they are hurting. For your own children's sake allowing them to cause you emotional turmoil is not okay.

 

IME this sort of person just wants to go on at one point, or they cut you out. You won't need to do the cutting out if they won't resume a relationship. If they decided that they can get along again, they will. Otherwise they will continue to villify you and they won't see them. Either way, the ball is just not in your court. All you can do is focus on people you want to be in relationships with and play a different game with different people in your own court.

[Seasider]

I neglected to mention this in my OP, but I think it is becoming relevant information that my DH is autistic and is working 2 jobs. Had my BIL called my DH and wanted to talk, he would have been there. The *second* he had even an inkling that he might have hurt his brother by not calling, he called, 3 times, without response. My BIL has said on numerous occasions that he has no hurt feelings whatsoever about the ways and times we reached out.

Your BIL says that because it's the truth, and he gets it. Your SIL is making you the scapegoats, probably because she is not grieving in a healthy way. You've done the best you can under the circumstances. Be open if they try to reach out and reconcile, but if I were you, I wouldn't send any more texts (or calls, or anything) unless she made first contact.

[happypamama]

Correct. It's his brother's wife. And, really, in the 8 years they've been married, I'm not sure they've ever said more than "pass the peas" to eat other. At family gatherings, she & I would chat and our husbands would run off and hang out with their youngest brother (who is significantly younger).

 

I'm hearing everything you guys are saying. My take-aways at this point is:

1. My DH should have called his brother, despite being on strong pain meds & recovering from surgery.

2. We need to just let things lie and wait and see if we ever see her again.

3. My DH needs to keep working at building a relationship with his brother.

 

I can live with that.

I agree with numbers two and three but not necessarily number one. That was an extenuating circumstance why your DH couldn't call right away. Plus, the birth of a baby is always a hectic, busy time; sometimes phone calls are hard to handle personally then anyway, and that's when all is well. In that situation, they might not have been up for talking to a lot of people, even if now they wish you'd called. It sounds like you did send the ornament and card very quickly, really. In fact, since those first few days were likely a blur of pain, both physical and emotional, the ornament might not have registered with them.

 

I think your DH continuing to reach out to his brother is a good idea. A lot of attention is given to the mom, but dads grieve too. I waited a couple of days to call my brother and SIL, because I knew they were in the hospital and had both sets of grandparents and a lot of local friends around, needed to attend to their living child and make funeral arrangements and everything, etc., and I also wanted to make sure that when I called, I was able to handle my own grief and sadness so that I didn't put more of a burden on them. When I did call, maybe four days after, I figured I'd talk to my SIL and see how she was doing, but actually, my brother answered, and it was good that he did. I think he needed a chance to talk about what he was feeling, and I was able to be a listener for him and just for him. So I'm thinking that your BIL might respond to his big brother just listening to him talk. Big brother is a step removed in a way that their father, for instance, isn't, but close in a way that most friends aren't. So maybe he'll open up and talk to your DH if he needs to.

[TechWife]

You texted your condolences. That was inappropriate, IMO. Even if this is how you normally communicate, this was not a normal situation. 

 

It sounds as if your BIL's wife is grieving. I see no evidence of what you are calling abuse - it's a bunch of "he said" "she said" conversation, which benefits no one. 

 

You need to decide if you want to repair the relationship. If you do, head on over to her house and apologize. In any case, you and your husband need to stop talking to MIL about your relationship. It simply doesn't lend itself to a healthily relationship with either you BIL, his wife or your MIL. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by TechWife

[Danestress]

Did you husband make his own efforts to call or visit his brother after he was able to do so following surgery?

 

My guess is that she is resentful about that if it didn't happen. Even though you texted, I don't get the feeling she wants your texts, but wanted her husband to have his brothers support - not an ornament (though that was a lovely gesture) but present and relational contact. I don't consider husbands and wives interchangeable. If my sister didn't make an effort but I got a lot of texts from her husband, I would be dismayed.

 

Since you have not been close to her, it doesn't seem so bad to me that you weren't 'there' for her. But when push comes to shove, siblings generally are more deeply connected.

 

I am not surprised she doesn't want to be with her inlaws. She is grieving in a way that is so raw and powerful that I am sure she can't deal with most people. I think she gets a total free pass on thanksgiving, and if her inlaws were hurt, they should have kept that to themselves.

 

I would just stop texting and stop involving myself much. This is for your husband to do. I would continue to try to be on good terms with the whole family, and stop letting side conversations happen. Encourage your DH to reach out. Choose to think about her with grace and kindness. She is in an absolute world of hurt and will be for some time. I would reach out in small ways and speak of and to her kindly, but mostly try to change how I let myself think about it. And I do think we can choose that to a great extent.

[NorthwestMom]

My insight is this: waaaaaayyyyyyyy too much triangulation going on here. 

 

Everyone is talking to someone else about a 3rd parties thoughts, feelings, reasons, etc.  That is absolutely the recipe for problems. 

 

I don't know if anything can be fixed here or not.  But if you want my advice, from this point forward, you make it your 100% policy that you only talk to the person about that person (or their feelings, or their reasons, or whatever).  As soon as soon as someone says, "SIL is going to...." Just put your hand up and say, "You know, I prefer to keep communications direct.  SIL knows how to find me if she wants to tell me something."  And then you do the same.  Don't offer an opinion to MIL about what is going on with SIL. 

 

Once you have that policy in place, the next policy I would put in place is voice communication only.  Telephone or in person.  No email, no text.  People behave in email and text in ways they just wouldn't if they had to put it our of their own mouths directly to the person.  It will save you a lot of grief.

 

Finally, ask yourself what you want from SIL.  Is there something she can give you (a coffee date?  an informal pizza dinner at either home or a restaurant?) right now that you can call and ask for?  Figure out what you want, and then use your voice to call and ask for it.  Be prepared to be disappointed the first couple of times.  But I would offer something to her maybe 3 times, and then reevaluate what you are doing.

 

Ok, finally, finally....don't guess about motivations or intent.  I'm sure some of it is caught up in her grief, but also people just act strangely sometimes, we get things wrong sometimes, we say it in a way we didn't mean sometimes, etc.  It's best if you just take people at face value, without trying to read subtext, and without giving out subtext of your own.  Just call and really say what you  really mean, and believe her, even if it's not your first instinct.

I love this advice so, so much.

 

I also think we need to let her DH off the hook for not calling immediately after surgery. My husband was a loopy, goofy wreck after surgery. A person with autism who is in an altered state of consciousness after surgery should not be trying to navigate such a difficult emotional situation. 

 

:grouphug: to all of you, OP. You are all hurting.

[Tsuga]

I read this this morning.

 

OP, I am so sorry for all you and your SIL are going through.

 

My suggestion might not be something you need to hear right now, in this season. But maybe later. And this would be on top of what TammyS suggested, that you interact directly.

 

I hear that you did everything you could do for your SIL at that time. And that is your truth and the truth we are hearing.

 

But to your SIL--that's not the picture that came through to her.

 

So my suggestion is this. For now, when you interact with her, accept her reality. Even if it makes you the bad guy. And apologize. I get that from your perspective, you have done NOTHING wrong, but did the absolute best you could at the time. (I would have done the same, in all likelihood.) But I'd still suck it up and go see her personally, and ask for forgiveness. 

 

I wouldn't do that to make her happy. She lost her baby. She is not going to magically get better. It won't go away and you can't fix it.

 

What you can do is express to her that you wanted to be there for her and you have realized that you were not there, not in the way she needed, and whatever the circumstances, you wish you would have been there. Don't say "could".

 

But a clear, "I'm sorry. I wanted to be there for you. I wanted to do enough and I didn't do enough. And I want us to be a family, and I'm willing to listen" and letting her scream at you--because she might, because she lost her baby, I know you lost yours too--but just letting her get it out--that might help you guys function as a family in the future.

 

I'm not saying she's right. It sounds like she is operating from a place of fear and anger right now and I feel terrible for her. She is trying to find a reason this happened to her, that all this pain is here, and you guys are it. Isn't that convenient?

 

But from my perspective, and I probably take WAY too much crap from people although at least I do have some boundaries, it is worth it to be there for her, and for your DH to do the same.

 

It doesn't matter who is right. What matters is what you can do, not what she can do or should to. You're only responsible for yourself in this situation.

 

You have your narrative already. Maybe if you let her have hers to your face and accept it to her she can find security to start dealing with the pain bit by bit. I really can't imagine what she's going through.

 

As for her remark about your kids... I know that hurts. I won't go into my family issues but I have had several things like this happen to my kids or nephews and it was painful. But we go on and we don't cut them off. Ultimately I think our family is stronger for it. I hope you find some peace.  :grouphug:

[Starr]

I'm trying to figure out why she would have wanted you at the hospital under such

Circumstances since you aren't close.

[MinivanMom]

. . .

Edited December 22, 2015 by MinivanMom

[mom2samlibby]

Very gently. 

 

You are wrong. Their baby died. This was not a miscarriage. Their baby died. And you texted them? Really? You didn't send flowers? You didn't call them on the phone? You didn't ask when the memorial would be and find someone - anyone - to sit with your husband while you went alone? No visit once your husband was well enough? 

 

And you're angry at her? You think you're being abused?

 

The OP said that they didn't send flowers, but sent an ornament.  She also took her SIL out for lunch after she got out of the hospital.

 

I'm wondering why everything spiraled out of control after your lunch with the SIL.  The text doesn't bother me that much, since that has been the primary form of communication for the family.  

[City Mouse]

Very gently.

 

You are wrong. Their baby died. This was not a miscarriage. Their baby died. And you texted them? Really? You didn't send flowers? You didn't call them on the phone? You didn't ask when the memorial would be and find someone - anyone - to sit with your husband while you went alone? No visit once your husband was well enough?

 

And you're angry at her? You think you're being abused?

 

 

Again, very gently.

 

I don't see any abuse here. I don't see anything delusional or unreasonable on the part of your sil. I don't see anything to indicate that your sil has PPD or any kind of unhealthy grieving; it is completely natural for her grief to be stronger during the holidays. I do see a lot of gossip and a lot of he said/she said. And I see a lot of poor communication on the part of your husband and his brother.

 

I also see a lot of unhealthy triangulation. And your mil appears to be smack dab in the middle of all the drama, all the gossip, and all the misunderstandings. If I was angry at anyone, I would be angry at your mil. I would also remember that "If she does it with you, she probably does it to you." Whatever negative things mil has been saying to you about sil, she has probably been saying similarly negative things to sil about you. "I don't know why Meghan didn't come to the hospital; she could have left her husband for an hour . . . Meghan was so angry you didn't send your toddler for Thanksgiving . . . etc, etc." I would take anything mil has said up til now with a grain of salt, shut down any further attempts to gossip, and only communicate directly with sil in the future.

 

I also see a lot anger and blame toward your sil, but not a lot of compassion. I'm not sure why that is, but I would gently suggest stepping back until you figure it out. Not for your sake, but for hers. Because her baby died. And that deserves compassion.

I had been thinking similar thoughts about the MIL playing the middle man, because of personal experience. For years, my mom would tell me would tell me in a pained way that the only time we could have the big family Christmas was xxxx because that was the only time my sister (and family) would come. Then, she would tell my sister in the same put out tone, that it was my fault that we had to have the family Christmas at an inconvenient time because I insisted that I was going to attend mass on Christmas Eve. This went on for years with both of us believing that the other sibling was being difficult. It wasn't until we had the opportunity to have dinner together without my mom that we discovered that mom had been the one manipulating us both.

 

I wonder if MIL is the one who thinks your husband did not act properly and is adding fuel to the fire.

[happypamama]

I'm just wondering -- am I the only one who wouldn't want to hear a million phone calls when I'm grieving, not to mention trying to rest and recover after childbirth?? I would definitely not have wanted to have to discuss how I was doing with every single person who called, especially a SIL with whom I wasn't all that close anyway. And everyone coming to see me at the hospital -- shudder. (And I don't like flowers because our cats try to eat them.) Maybe DH and I are even more private people than I thought, but I know everyone would be thinking of me, but they couldn't fix it, so I'd really rather most people just leave me alone to grieve, cry, yell, and feel whatever without being a spectacle. Since that family tends to communicate via text anyway, I think sending a text was a totally reasonable thing to do -- it communicated directly to SIL, rather than calling and possibly getting SIL's mom ("Hi, I'm answering her phone because she's resting right now, but I'll tell her you called"), and it let her respond if/when she was ready and in an easy way, especially if she wasn't up to talking.

 

Family dynamics can be so frustrating. You're supposed to guess how every single person would like you to respond in every instance, and with people with whom you didn't share a childhood.