Sibling Harassing Elderly Parent for Money

[umsami]

So I'll probably have to delete details, so please don't quote.

 

My parents are in their mid-80s.  My brother is nearly 50.  His entire adult life, he's been in trouble with drugs, the law, etc.  He even embezzled money from my parents, writing tens of thousands of dollars worth of checks a few years ago.  My father has washed his hands of him, but he continues to harass my Mom.  I've been here a week, and he calls her multiple times a day saying she needs to send him money for whatever reason.  He tells her its his fault he's an ex-convict and that he can't get a real job now.  My parents have bought him numerous businesses, homes, trucks, and cars.  It is ridiculous.  He basically will call non stop and won't leave her alone until she gives him money.  I've driven her to Wal-Mart and CVS at least four times myself for her to send him money, and that doesn't include the times she's gone herself.

 

What can I do? Is there anything?  My Dad (who has leukemia) says that once he dies, my brother won't leave her alone until he has every cent.  I thought he was exaggerating (my Mom is a very smart investor, has a master's degree in psychology, etc.)...but now watching it, I agree.

 

Help.

 

Once again, please don't quote if you can avoid it.  Thanks :)

[SparklyUnicorn]

Wonder if you can get a restraining order.  I can't really come up with any other ideas except something radical like move and don't tell him.  Which I know probably is not that easy to do.

 

 

[Anne in CA]

I think your Mom needs help for herself from someone who can make her understand she is a victim of elder abuse. This happened to my MIL's MIL. Her abusive son got most of her money when she died, and threatened to kill my FIL and MIL unless they gave him the house (all that was left). They gave him the house. He was that scary. I would bet she is not giving him the money from guilt or pity, even if she says so. I bet he is threatening her.

[Jyhwkmama]

How is he contacting her? Is it by phone? Does he live close by? If it is by phone, block his number if possible. If not, get a new phone number.

[LucyStoner]

Can your parents give you financial POA?

[umsami]

I think your Mom needs help for herself from someone who can make her understand she is a victim of elder abuse. This happened to my MIL's MIL. Her abusive son got most of her money when she died, and threatened to kill my FIL and MIL unless they gave him the house (all that was left). They gave him the house. He was that scary. I would bet she is not giving him the money from guilt or pity, even if she says so. I bet he is threatening her.

 

I think so too.  How on earth would I find somebody? Should I contact the local senior center? The elder abuse hotline in Florida?

[AmandaVT]

What does your mom say when you are talking to her about the situation? Can you intercept the phone calls while you're there? Are there services in their state for elder support? Would your parents be willing to move their money to your control? Give brother a set amount and say - this is your inheritance early and you're not getting anything else. I'm sure I'm not wording that correctly, but if your mom wants help getting out of this situation, then anything from a restraining order to getting their money in some kind of a trust that they can take out what they need for living expenses but need both of your parents signatures on anything larger. That way your dad would also have to agree to sending him money? I'm sorry - DH's brother does this a bit, but not to that level (yet). 

[umsami]

Wonder if you can get a restraining order.  I can't really come up with any other ideas except something radical like move and don't tell him.  Which I know probably is not that easy to do.

 

The cops where they used to live enacted a restraining order after the embezzling incident, but of course, my brother never honored it and my Mom didn't care.

[J-rap]

I agree with asking your parents to give you POA (and not your brother).  Also, this may sound like a strange idea, but could you do something like this:

 

Have your parents list you as an account holder on their bank account.  You also open another account (just under your name) at the same bank.  Most banks let you go online and transfer money freely, anytime, between your accounts at the same bank.  So, you could store the bulk of your parents' money in your own, personal account (which is really only used to hold your parents' money safely), only transferring money to your mother's account on an as-needed basis.  This is something you can do from a distance as well.

 

Do they have a will made out?  They should, and then keep it at the attorney's office, or your home (where your brother can't find it).

 

Sorry you're going through this.  :grouphug:

[Orthodox6]

While your parents still are of clear mind, immediately contact a reputable eldercare attorney.  Your parents each need (separate ones) a medical power of attorney, a durable power of attorney, and a will.  Have your sibling's name kept off of the power of attorney documents, and off of all financial accounts.  Do not have him named as an executor, or even as a co-executor, of the wills.    If possible, have the attorney tie up any money or resources left by parental will to your brother in a manner that will prevent him from touching these resources without your releasing them.  If you feel strong enough to do this, that is.  It certainly is valid to let him receive his inheritance all at once and blow it.  There will be nothing further for him to receive in that case.   

[Orthodox6]

I agree with asking your parents to give you POA (and not your brother).  Also, this may sound like a strange idea, but could you do something like this:

 

Have your parents list you as an account holder on their bank account.  You also open another account (just under your name) at the same bank.  Most banks let you go online and transfer money freely, anytime, between your accounts at the same bank.  So, you could store the bulk of your parents' money in your own, personal account (which is really only used to hold your parents' money safely), only transferring money to your mother's account on an as-needed basis.  This is something you can do from a distance as well.

 

Do they have a will made out?  They should, and then keep it at the attorney's office, or your home (where your brother can't find it).

 

Sorry you're going through this.  :grouphug:

 

Regarding the bolded sentence:  If OP is listed as an account holder, she should keep in mind that the resources therein will be considered as her own resources in case a debt collector ever comes after her for some reason.  There is a difference between having permission to sign checks on (or otherwise make use of) a financial account and being an account holder.  I am a little shaky on that preceding sentence, so this is one to discuss with the eldercare attorney.  I do know, though, about account ownership making all parties vulnerable.  We discussed this again with my father's attorney just last week.

[gardenmom5]

oh I so hear you. btdt.

 

I was looking for who to call when the effluence hit the fan and it became moot.  he did his manipulating in front of the ER dr.(I should mention he completely snowed the nurse, and she was trying to help him.  If I'd known, I would have filed a complaint against her at the hospital) - I didn't even know they were at the ER - the dr called the hospitals lawyers, called hospital security, then called me at 12:15 AM, telling me what was going on, they had security ready to throw him out, and what did I want to do?  she died two months later - then he started posturing that he was going to sue me. (dealing with him, on top of an undiagnosed/untreated aspie drove my stress levels through the roof.)  even so far as getting some naïve idiot at navy JAG to send me a threatening letter. I had to totally cut him off.  (incidently, our lawyer was laughing in hysterics at the idiocy of the guy at jag.)

 

I would call adult senior services in your area, and  ask about what you have to do to file a complaint of elder abuse.  (this is one of the most common forms.) my mother's objections made things more difficult trying to protect her.

 

Your father sees things a little more clearly, if he will help, it could make things easier for you.  It might seem drastic, but your father could take out a restraining order.

 

will your parents be willing to have financial poas filed with you as designated poa?  also do medical poas - for both of them.  get them in their medical files, keep a copy with you at all times, have theirs ready to go if they ever have a medical emergency.

[Laurie]

This sounds like a very dangerous situation, not just for your parents but for you as well.   Is your husband still away?   Would it be possible for you and your parents to move to a new location without your brother finding out?   I would be very afraid to have him anywhere near my children so if you were already thinking about a move, that's what I would do!   Please be careful...I hate to even write this, but if you're the only other sibling he might do something to make himself an only child.

[Word Nerd]

Have you talked about it with your parents? Cutting off your brother's means of contacting your mom might be a temporary solution depending on how far away he lives, but if she doesn't even want to stop "helping" him and your dad can't do anything to help shield her from the harassment, I doubt anything will change. Contacting elder services sounds like a good idea.

[umsami]

While your parents still are of clear mind, immediately contact a reputable eldercare attorney.  Your parents each need (separate ones) a medical power of attorney, a durable power of attorney, and a will.  Have your sibling's name kept off of the power of attorney documents, and off of all financial accounts.  Do not have him named as an executor, or even as a co-executor, of the wills.    If possible, have the attorney tie up any money or resources left by parental will to your brother in a manner that will prevent him from touching these resources without your releasing them.  If you feel strong enough to do this, that is.  It certainly is valid to let him receive his inheritance all at once and blow it.  There will be nothing further for him to receive in that case.   

 

They've actually already done this.  They are each others medical power of attorney, but I come next on both.  I'm the executor of the will along with one of our family lawyer's...and  my brother has been told explicitly that he will not inherit...he had his inheritance during his lifetime, etc.  

 

We chatted/argued again about it a few minutes ago.  She feels that she's my brother's only source of help and the only one who cares about him (there's a reason everybody has left him even his own kids want nothing to do with him.)   She told me, "I thought the Muslim faith had something like the Christian faith about forgiving."  I said, "I'll consider forgiving when he stops harassing you."  She believes yet again that he's really trying and is clean even though he was literally arrested a few weeks ago for manufacturing and selling heroin.  He apparently gave the cops some info on other drug buddies which has him out right now.  Horrible to say, but I hope he goes to jail again....for a very long time.

 

[Wildcat]

I'm so sorry. I am definitely not familiar with this sort of thing, but it seems to me that unless you can have your mother legally declared unable to manage her own affairs and have her removed from all accounts, there is nothing you can do. Can you consult with an attorney to see what your options might be?

 

Her actions are actually enabling him and she loves him so much she isn't able to see that she is really hurting him. And you.

 

Again, I am so, so sorry that you are going through this.

[ThisIsTheDay]

Would your parents be willing to set up some sort of trust for their finances to that any money released would go through a third party, who would in effect stop your brother from getting large sums of money?

 

I'm not familiar with the process, but if I were in this position, I would certainly be looking into it with a financial advisor.

[J-rap]

Regarding the bolded sentence:  If OP is listed as an account holder, she should keep in mind that the resources therein will be considered as her own resources in case a debt collector ever comes after her for some reason.  There is a difference between having permission to sign checks on (or otherwise make use of) a financial account and being an account holder.  I am a little shaky on that preceding sentence, so this is one to discuss with the eldercare attorney.  I do know, though, about account ownership making all parties vulnerable.  We discussed this again with my father's attorney just last week.

 

Good point.

[Word Nerd]

I don't think it's horrible to hope that at all under the circumstances.

[Wildcat]

I don't think it's horrible to hope that at all under the circumstances.

 

I agree.

[gardenmom5]

Would your parents be willing to set up some sort of trust for their finances to that any money released would go through a third party, who would in effect stop your brother from getting large sums of money?

 

I'm not familiar with the process, but if I were in this position, I would certainly be looking into it with a financial advisor.

 

This is what we had to do with my mother. We put everything into a trust. She had access to cash for every day stuff. (Bills were taken care of. ) If she wanted more, she had to go through the trustee. It protected the money (which was there for HER needs)  but didn't stop the harassment. She thought giving him money would make him happy and he'd leave her alone. It's never enough. Your mom needs to understand that.

[Orthodox6]

Guardianship of your parents? This is an extreme measure, but the attorney should have advice for this situation. I have no knowledge of criteria or of parameters. I thought of it because of the elder abuse that clearly has been going on for a long time.

[Orthodox6]

Forgiveness and enabling do not overlap.

[Orthodox6]

Umsami, are you also listed on the DPOA? You mentioned only the MPOA.

[Joanne]

This is what we had to do with my mother. We put everything into a trust. She had access to cash for every day stuff. (Bills were taken care of. ) If she wanted more, she had to go through the trustee. It protected the money but didn't stop the harassment. She thought giving him money would make him happy and he'd leave her alone. It's never enough. Your mom needs to understand that.

 

This may be the real key for ongoing and lasting safety - money and otherwise.

 

Would mom be willing to read, go to a support meeting, or meet with a counselor who has a speciality in addiction and family?

[OneStepAtATime]

Hugs. I agree, she is enabling, her help won't help but at 80 something I doubt her perspective will change. What about counseling? Might she be willing to talk to someone? And I agree, if he doesn't live in the area you might see about trying to block his calls.

 

My grandmother went through something similar with her parents and a nephew. She finally had to declare her own parents incapable of taking care of themselves to stop the harrassment and outflow of funds and loss of property. It was horrible for everyone involved but at least they had enough money left to take care of themselves in their final years. Grandma said she cried so much her tear ducts stopped working.

 

This is such a painful thing. And potentially dangerous. Does he live nearby?

[texasmama]

Would your parents be willing to set up some sort of trust for their finances to that any money released would go through a third party, who would in effect stop your brother from getting large sums of money?

 

I'm not familiar with the process, but if I were in this position, I would certainly be looking into it with a financial advisor.

I believe this is the best recourse at this point.

 

Getting guardianship of adults is a complex and expensive process which is not entered into by the courts lightly, and the persons involved have to be incompetent, not just giving away money to people who don't deserve it.

 

Durable POA generally only kicks in after a person (or people, in this case) becomes incompetent to make their own financial and legal decisions.  (Some institutions will ask for a doctor's note stating that the person is not able to manage their own affairs.)

 

They can set up a trust or run all bills and financial matters through you.  It sounds like your parents are of sound mind, and your father realizes the problems with giving your brother money, but your mom continues to do so.  One option is to cut off your mom from most of the money, giving her a small amount in a bank account.  Your dad and you would need to be joint owners of the remaining bank account. (Yes, I am aware of the potential issues regarding creditors and such, but if the OP is not concerned, this is a way to address this.)  Then, after your dad passes away, you would control your mom's money.

 

Dh and I had to move his grandmother's money to a secret account to keep his mother from accessing it.  She would drive her mother with advanced Alzheimer's through the drive through of the bank, present her mother's DL, and withdraw cash repeatedly without asking or telling dh, who held DPOA.  She also wrote checks out of her mother's bank account for thousands of dollars when her mother was incompetent and used her mother's credit cards, running up huge bills.  It was criminal, but the family did not want to do anything about it so nothing was done except the cards cancelled and the money moved and hidden.

 

I don't know your parents financial situation, but it is possible that they may need this money for their senior years for their own care so acting to help them protect it is a kindness.  I'm really sorry you are having to do this.  I understand the frustration and the difficulty in being "the responsible one".

[Valley Girl]

What an awful man! I hope you (or someone else if you're able to get professional assistance) is able to help your mom see the situation more clearly. What he's demanding has nothing to do with forgiveness--it's manipulation. He's preying on your elderly, ill parents. Thank goodness they have you. I don't blame you one bit for hoping he goes back to jail for a long time. That would actually help buy some time for you to get some protections in place for your folks. Stay safe.

[texasmama]

You can also call Adult Protective Services.  I had to do so for my father when he was being preyed upon financially by unrelated people who milked him out of thousands of dollars.  It did help my father realize that he needed to cut these people off.  There is no guarantee that APS would even investigate, but this may fall under their purview.

[HRAAB]

I've lived that. I'm so sorry. I did have financial power of attorney when my dad was very ill,and my name was on one checking account. Somehow my sibling got her name on the other account; I didn't find this out until my dad was in intensive care and unable to change anything. Sadly, the thing that ended it was my dad's death. Thankfully he had a will. Sibling wasn't happy with it but didn't push it at that point, I suspect because she knew she would be dealing with me.

 

Eta I didn't know what to do at the time other than get financial poa when dad went into the hospital. He was mentally capable, but she was a pro at wearing him down with sob stories and guilt trips. I'm sorry. It's hell to watch someone taking advantage of your parent.

[Orthodox6]

DPOA can be modified by the named parties. MPOA cannot. Don't remember why we were told this.

 

My brother (freely, not by any coercion) signed legal paperwork to remove himself from the DPOA for my father because they both consider me the person best able to handle business matters that Dad is less able to handle for himself. This is not always related to incompetency issues. Often my father will inform a company that I hold his DPOA, provide a copy of it, and pass the task on to me. Sometimes his verbal affirmation suffices. (although I see big loopholes in that last-mentioned, should someone decide to challenge it).

ETA: Not one speck of dementia is present for my 93-year-old father.

[gardenmom5]

Forgiveness and enabling do not overlap.

:iagree:

 

and enabling is. not. love.  (you can tell your mom - it's not "Christian" either.  enabling is about the enabler feeling good about themselves: no matter *how much* it hurts the person "they're helping".)

[Lisbeth]

Maybe if you contact APS, they can work with the fact that he is violating the previous restraining order?  I am sorry you have to deal.  I am livid on your behalf and your mother's behalf.  Someone who is desperately into a drug lifestyle is a dangerous person.  Be safe!

[Hen]

I am living this now, except it is my grandparents and my Uncle, who is in his late 50's, my grandmother is 84.  I did end up getting conservatorship over my grandfather, who was 90 and had alzheimers, but the conservatorship took forever, was a pain, and really in the end did not actively help the situation.  What did help was having myself added to all their accounts and moving the bulk of their savings to a totally new bank, with me on the account, my grandmother as principal. (if you did this, I would take your mother off the accounts, since she is the problem) We changed phone numbers and now, when the uncle wants to talk to his mom, he has to go through me first and I listen casually from the other room and shut it down if he makes her cry. I also have power of attorney, medically and physically.  I got conservatorship mostly to deal with my Uncle, but really, once my grandmother told him verbally that I was "executor" (she gets confused) he gave up, he is too lazy and doesn't have enough money to challenge anything.

 

I did explain to my grandmother that I know she is worried about him, but that helping him out all these years hasn't really helped him, it's hurt him and that he needs to learn to stand on his own feet. I asked her what will happen if she keeps supporting him- after she dies?  He will not be able to function.  I also point out that he can always go get a job at a starbucks or wallmart but she is 84 and in poor health and can't- he needs to support himself.  Two years ago, she gave him $3,000.00 and then he disappeared, leaving them to fend for themselves, this was about the time I stepped in.  She gets it when I talk to her, but I know she wavers and when he talks to her she always will, so I monitor communication with him now.  He hasn't called in a year.  If he does call again and starts in, I am prepared to take the phone and tell him that she is elderly, his only comments to her should make her happy, if he is calling and distressing her, then he is a horrible human being.

 

It's really hard, I know.  Thing is, family like that will bleed them dry and then disappear- my grandparents need their money for hospital care when and if they need it.

 

While you dad is still able, I would take him to speak to a lawyer and have him put you, are someone else he trusts, in charge of their finances.  My grandmother is from a very passive era, once I took over, she was relieved, really.  I tell her too, that when her son calls, to blame it on me, I will be the bad guy.  We have a situation right now with her sister, my great-aunt and her daughter (who I haven't seen in decades) trying to get money out of my grandmother for her sister's care- I had to shut it down and be the bad guy.  I tried to seem fair to my grandmother by saying she could help out some, but for example, we needed receipts for certain things (which I knew the daughter would likely not produce) it helped that I could say we needed receipts for the lawyer and the conservatorship.  I shut it down, and my grandmother understands it was a sketchy situation, but she can't really say no- but I can.

 

 

[Anne in CA]

I would contact the elder abuse hotline in Florida and explain the situation and see what they say.

[trulycrabby]

Umsami, I am so sorry. This is going on in my family too. My advice is to lawyer up, and do what you can to keep your brother away from your mom. :hugs:

[SKL]

I agree with getting a lawyer who has experience with this sort of thing.

 

I would be reluctant to go the route of taking over the purse strings yourself.  Because that could make it look like you are the one trying to steal your parents' money.  Who knows what he would do with that?

 

This situation sucks.  I have a sibling of similar age who can't get it together despite a lot of assistance over the years.  She frequently asks me for money.  If I say no, she goes to my mom, who gives her "a loan" even though she can't afford to.  So I feel like I have no choice.  If anyone figures out how to stop people like this, let me know.

[Joanne]

I agree with getting a lawyer who has experience with this sort of thing.

 

I would be reluctant to go the route of taking over the purse strings yourself.  Because that could make it look like you are the one trying to steal your parents' money.  Who knows what he would do with that?

 

This situation sucks.  I have a sibling of similar age who can't get it together despite a lot of assistance over the years.  She frequently asks me for money.  If I say no, she goes to my mom, who gives her "a loan" even though she can't afford to.  So I feel like I have no choice.  If anyone figures out how to stop people like this, let me know.

 

 

If the OP has official POA role and responsibilities and has a paper trail of paid bills, etc, I can't imagine there is a real risk.

 

On your second paragraph, you can't "stop" them; you can only manipulate the situation to protect yourself from the harassment.

[Hen]

as far as looking like you are doing something ill with the money, I agree with Joanne, have a POA signed and keep good records.  For the conservatorship of my grandfather, when the judge heard that my uncle is transient and doesn't work, he was no longer a consideration.  The conservatorship has been a big pain for me and very time consuming and when we are done, we will pay about $4,000.00 to the attorney and it didn't do much of what I wanted with it- which was mainly to stop my grandfather from taking money out of the bank or writing checks (he had alzheimers) even after I had the letters of conservatorship, the bank still let him take money out, arghhh. The most simple and effective move was for me to be added on their accounts and take over the finances. Also, both grandparents came with me to the bank and signed me on, this is what really made it all without question.

 

We went through the elder abuse services, and they were no help.  My grandfather was having screaming sessions at my grandmother and threatening to kill her or himself and they did nothing, they thought he was not impaired enough to do anything. 

 

IMHO, if you have both parents give you both health POA and financial POA and keep records and keep everything above board, there really isn't much your brother can do about it,  SOMEONE has to take care of your parents, and if they decide it was you, I don't think a court is going to go after you.  You could do a free consult with an elder law attorney and ask questions.  Also, for conservatorship, they ask about past bankruptcy and criminal record, if your brother has a history of financial mistakes and/or has been sued, he is going to look like a problem and you will be the logical person to have been given POA --if he challenges you.  (totally my opinion)

 

[goldberry]

I am so sorry.  My brother who died a few years ago was a life-long drug user, but he never in a million years would have done this to my parents.  My parents finally stopped giving him money or cars, and eventually would only give him food or clothes from Goodwill when he came by the house.  They would let him stay there when he was clean, but he would sometimes just disappear and then they knew he went back to using.  At least he tried to respect their wishes by just leaving.  

 

I saw what it did to my parents though... dear God that is so hard and I hope and pray never to have to go through it.

 

:grouphug:

[Melissa in Australia]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

 

I am so sorry. It is a situation that I have seen too many times  especially when I worked in aged care.it is absolutely awful and not always the elderly empowering, but often intimidated and bullied into giving over the money.  I know one very elderly lady who had to sell her house and shift into a tiny flat just to get her drug using son out of her house. My SIL and her daughter regularly begs/gest money from my in-laws.

 

always it seems drugs and /or gambling at the bottom of it.

 

[Callie]

If your mom is mentally competent I don't think you can do anything.  It sucks but it is her money to do with what she likes.  Now if she is not competent you can step in.

[Journey]

she probably feels some sort of guilt for the way he turned out so she is doing what she is doing to make herself feel better. 

[goldberry]

she probably feels some sort of guilt for the way he turned out so she is doing what she is doing to make herself feel better. 

 

 

I don't totally discount this, but I know in the situations I have known that was not at the core of it.  The person is always your baby.  That's just the way it is, and a drug user is usually good at manipulating that natural connection to get what they want.

[Seasider]

((((umsami)))

 

What a heartbreaking situation. I can only imagine how you must be bouncing between anger and grief. I wish I had some clear, terrific  advice to give you. My mother has a younger sister that has tried to leach and may do so again when mom's husband passes. However, my brother was on to her long ago and my brother also has access to the bank accounts.

 

If there were a way to get your father to take action, it seems that would be the most logical source of weight behind anything you do. Is there any way that he alone (with your help, I just mean apart from your mother) could transfer a nest-egg amount into an account under your name only? Enough to provide for her after he is gone, so she will not be driven to destitution? I'm sure that more would be better, but perhaps at least this could be done. 

 

Is it possible for you to arrange for the lawyer to "drop by" the house? Do your parents have a friendship relationship with their attorney, or is it strictly business? Sometimes hearing something from an authority figure carries more weight, kwim? He might be able to engage your mother in a conversation without it becoming emotionally charged. 

[AmyontheFarm]

Can your Dad help you now get everything set up?  If Dad would agree, I'd get the phone number changed ASAP and block the son's number.