s/o - question about thoughts regarding suicide

[BrookValley.]

What I don't understand is, why do we need to call it cowardly or brave?  It's tragic.

 

I agree, that's exactly what it is. A tragedy. My guess is--and others have said the same upthread--this is family members/loved ones/etc. attributing something to the loss to try to make sense of it. Not relevant to suicide, but relevant to grief and loss: my mother is, more than twenty years later, angry at her father for dying suddenly. He didn't commit suicide (he had a massive heart attack), but in her grief she chose to blame someone, and that someone was him. She says she still talks him sometimes, especially while driving alone, and tells him how pissed off she is that he left her that way. Does it make sense? No. But people react to grief in all sorts of illogical ways.

[albeto.]

Neither. I think they have made life choices that have added up to changing their brain physically to the point of no return from depression,, rather like a diabetic that wont control the carb intake ends up with physical changes that mean he cant produce enough insulin. Some kill their body quickly, others slowly as all their choices add up. I think it all goes back to the soul...knowing why you are put on earth, and having the ability to do things that are satisfying to the soul.

 

What are your sources are for this conclusion?

[albeto.]

I'm not the poster you're responding to.  I don't disagree with you but this make me think:

 

Why is it that some people can come through these things and go on to lead "normal" (for lack of a better word) lives, while others are beset by depression and/or other mental illness?    It is not a character issue, or a moral issue.  But some people can come back from those experiences and some can't.  Is the difference brain chemistry, or ??

 

These are rhetorical questions; I am not really expecting answers. I'm not sure anyone can know. 

 

We can know, eventually. In the same way we began to understand about earthquakes by first familiarizing ourselves with the lay of the land, we'll begin to understand bout mental illness by familiarizing ourselves with the lay of the land (neurology). It takes time, it takes funding, it takes recognition of the value of knowledge and how it's gained.

 

In answer to your question, there are lots of hypotheses being explored, lots of experiments that work with specific variables in detail. In time we'll know more. For now it's good to recognize that we don't understand it all, but to advocate the idea that depression and suicidal behaviors are a matter of free choice (or free will) is maybe a step up the latter from advocating Bill O'Riley's factoid that one can't explain the tides. It's good for people to know the difference between fact and opinion, and it's valuable to recognize ghat not having all the facts doesn't mean one's personal opinion is valid, regardless of how much sense it may make in their own mind. 

[Carol in Cal.]

I haven't read all the responses here, but since I've had a couple attempts, I might as well add my two cents worth. It's neither brave nor cowardly. It's just desperation. Sitting at the bottom of that black hole is hard. Sometimes it feels like the only way out is to kill myself. If I've spent numerous nights in a row with nightmares and flashbacks, sometimes the weight of it all just gets too heavy. I want out, but I have three kids who didn't choose to come into this world, I brought them into it and they deserve to have a mom. I have called help lines before when friends are hard to come by. Sometimes just talking to someone, someone just willing to throw me a line for a bit is helpful. I have in the past, talked about suicide, but I wasn't trying to manipulate or use it, so much as try and tell the other person that I was feeling desperate and hopeless and I needed a hand.

 

The whole suck it up and move on makes me lividly angry. I would walk away from my past if I was capable of doing so. People who talk like that have no idea how the mind works or what is actually going on.

 

I am glad you're here.  Please stay here with us.  Thank you for caring for your children as you have.

[Carol in Cal.]

What scares me most about suicide is that it is kind of contagious.

 

People with extraordinary mental challenges do it, and then others who don't have the same challenges sometimes romanticize it to an extent, and end up doing it without that rationale.  It's horrible either way, but the contagion is terrifying.

[albeto.]

I agree, that's exactly what it is. A tragedy. My guess is--and others have said the same upthread--this is family members/loved ones/etc. attributing something to the loss to try to make sense of it.

 

I think that's exactly it. We're intelligent creatures and one of our natural instincts is to decipher patterns, including those of behavior. This helps us to predict future behaviors and avoid problems as well as capitalize on things that are beneficial. Trying to make sense of a behavior that is outside our own personal experience is as natural as trying to make sense of the weather. We want to know, we want to decrease bad things in our lives and increase the good. Giving a reason to a seemingly incomprehensible action helps us feel like we have a bit more control over this otherwise unpredictable world. 

[MistyMountain]

I don't think it is cowardly, weak, selfish or brave at all. I think in most cases it the result of severe clinical depression and is an act of desperation because the person sees no other way out of their situation. You can't just snap out of depression. No person would choose it. It doesn't come from life choices.

[Dory]

What scares me most about suicide is that it is kind of contagious.

 

People with extraordinary mental challenges do it, and then others who don't have the same challenges sometimes romanticize it to an extent, and end up doing it without that rationale.  It's horrible either way, but the contagion is terrifying.

 

I think the media helps romanticize it.

[mommymilkies]

I think the media helps romanticize it.

I think quite the opposite.  It has quite a stigma around it.  In fact, I've seen far less vitriole around RW's passing than I have many other "celebrity" suicides in the media.  Maybe my FB feed is whittled down enough finally?  :coolgleamA:

[Dory]

I think quite the opposite.  It has quite a stigma around it.  In fact, I've seen far less vitriole around RW's passing than I have many other "celebrity" suicides in the media.  Maybe my FB feed is whittled down enough finally?  :coolgleamA:

 

perhaps you are right. I have seen too much, "he's in a better place", "his pain is over now", or "he was so brave" all over what I've read. In real life I see people belittle those who are struggling, or tell them to suck it up or say that they aren't trying hard enough and if they would make better choices they wouldn't feel this way. I actually was told numerous times that either you suck it up and live with what life dishes you or take yourself out of it. In real life it would seem that the people in this area believe that suicide is a real option for those who aren't strong enough and that staying and struggling is a sign of being to weak to make decision to either get better or get out.

[DragonFaerie]

I have not read this thread, and I don't know if/when I'll be able to.  My father committed suicide two months ago, and I would never, EVER think him weak or cowardly.  He was kind, and he was thoughtful, and he was the smartest person I have ever known.  I think he was depressed, and I think he felt hopeless, and I think he was at a point where he felt like he couldn't go on.  I am devastated, and I wish he could have known how very many lives he touched and how many people truly loved and respected him.  But he was NOT weak or cowardly.

[Spryte]

I have not read this thread, and I don't know if/when I'll be able to.  My father committed suicide two months ago, and I would never, EVER think him weak or cowardly.  He was kind, and he was thoughtful, and he was the smartest person I have ever known.  I think he was depressed, and I think he felt hopeless, and I think he was at a point where he felt like he couldn't go on.  I am devastated, and I wish he could have known how very many lives he touched and how many people truly loved and respected him.  But he was NOT weak or cowardly.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[unsinkable]

I have not read this thread, and I don't know if/when I'll be able to. My father committed suicide two months ago, and I would never, EVER think him weak or cowardly. He was kind, and he was thoughtful, and he was the smartest person I have ever known. I think he was depressed, and I think he felt hopeless, and I think he was at a point where he felt like he couldn't go on. I am devastated, and I wish he could have known how very many lives he touched and how many people truly loved and respected him. But he was NOT weak or cowardly.

(((DragonFaerie)))

 

I am so sorry about your dear father. :crying:

 

I'm Sending you hugs and strength. I wish I could do more.

[mommymilkies]

I have not read this thread, and I don't know if/when I'll be able to.  My father committed suicide two months ago, and I would never, EVER think him weak or cowardly.  He was kind, and he was thoughtful, and he was the smartest person I have ever known.  I think he was depressed, and I think he felt hopeless, and I think he was at a point where he felt like he couldn't go on.  I am devastated, and I wish he could have known how very many lives he touched and how many people truly loved and respected him.  But he was NOT weak or cowardly.

I am so, so sorry.  :grouphug:

[Word Nerd]

I have not read this thread, and I don't know if/when I'll be able to.  My father committed suicide two months ago, and I would never, EVER think him weak or cowardly.  He was kind, and he was thoughtful, and he was the smartest person I have ever known.  I think he was depressed, and I think he felt hopeless, and I think he was at a point where he felt like he couldn't go on.  I am devastated, and I wish he could have known how very many lives he touched and how many people truly loved and respected him.  But he was NOT weak or cowardly.

 

:grouphug: 

 

[TravelingChris]

Until I had someone in my family suffer from major depression, I had only an understanding of it from mass media. That understanding was so wrong. I think mainly because it focused on sadness. Not all depressive are sad and crying all the time. Men, especially young men, tend to get angry. But one of the hallmarks of major depression is the delusional, non rational thinking. It isn't delusional like the CIA is spying on me, it is delusional like they don't remember the good times, they can't see the good side of things easily like others do, their entire memory gets warped. It also has a lot more physical aspects to it than I realized--- sleeping too much or hardly at all, eating too much or hardly at all.

 

ANother myth that exists is that there are effective treatments available for all. Unfortunately, about 1/3 of the depressives are drug resistant types. So while that means that for the majority there is a good treatment, for a significant minority there is not yet. There have been some trials that have seemed to work for them but they have legal and treatment delivery problems-- one is a powerful animal tranquilizer that has been used as a street drug-ketamine. Apparantly it provides about two weeks of relief but had to be given in a lab setting and did take hours until the person could leave. I don't know at what stage of development that one is but it did work for the 1/3 the regular antidepressants don't work.

[Elisabet1]

I believe it is always a cowardly way out. I know there are exceptions, like when someone is so far out of their mind that they really are not in control of their actions. That happens. But the rest of the cases, cowardly thing. And suicide should never be celebrated and no one should say the person is in a better place. If the person was unable to reconcile whatever was torturing them before death, why would death be better?

 

I need to make an exception. In times of war, maybe if someone stands to be tortured, or they are being used to hurt others. Or like how people have had to kill their own children in the Middle East to protect them from the Islamic State. In those cases, the suicide and even murder could be a courageous act.

 

But when you are a rich guy upset about having to do Mrs Doubtfire, because for some odd reason, despite all the money you have, it is not good enough, and you leave behind three devastated children, then I think it is cowardly, cruel, and should not be celebrated.

[Joules]

.ANother myth that exists is that there are effective treatments available for all. Unfortunately, about 1/3 of the depressives are drug resistant types. So while that means that for the majority there is a good treatment, for a significant minority there is not yet. There have been some trials that have seemed to work for them but they have legal and treatment delivery problems-- one is a powerful animal tranquilizer that has been used as a street drug-ketamine. Apparantly it provides about two weeks of relief but had to be given in a lab setting and did take hours until the person could leave. I don't know at what stage of development that one is but it did work for the 1/3 the regular antidepressants don't work.

I'm glad you mentioned the meds not working in so many cases. I find so many family members angry..."if he'd just take his meds...." Though some people have luck, many are not made better by meds and are, in fact, sometimes made worse. Some patients are doing everything they can and everything they are asked and just don't get better. I wish more family and friends were more patient and compassionate. ( I personally have that problem with a physical auto-immune disease, so can really empathize. People really get frustrated with you when you don't miraculously get better.)

[Joules]

I have not read this thread, and I don't know if/when I'll be able to. My father committed suicide two months ago, and I would never, EVER think him weak or cowardly. He was kind, and he was thoughtful, and he was the smartest person I have ever known. I think he was depressed, and I think he felt hopeless, and I think he was at a point where he felt like he couldn't go on. I am devastated, and I wish he could have known how very many lives he touched and how many people truly loved and respected him. But he was NOT weak or cowardly.

I'm so, so sorry. Many hugs your way!

[DragonFaerie]

Thank you, everybody.  I did not mean to derail the thread.  It just asked for my thoughts.

[TheBugs]

I agree it's neither brave nor cowardly. In a lot of these discussions I haven't seen or heard people bringing up alcoholism. (I realize RW was said to be sober recently, so this isn't about him) . ......edited, too personal....Researchers know alcoholism increases the likelihood of suicide. Alcoholism is a disease much like other mental illness.

.....too personal and controversial..edited

It's really so tragic because there are treatments available. I wish there was more support for the mentally ill and less stigma. I also think there needs to be more help for family members because the stigma hurts us too. A lot of blame gets past around too.

[Mergath]

I believe it is always a cowardly way out. I know there are exceptions, like when someone is so far out of their mind that they really are not in control of their actions. That happens. But the rest of the cases, cowardly thing. And suicide should never be celebrated and no one should say the person is in a better place. If the person was unable to reconcile whatever was torturing them before death, why would death be better?

 

I need to make an exception. In times of war, maybe if someone stands to be tortured, or they are being used to hurt others. Or like how people have had to kill their own children in the Middle East to protect them from the Islamic State. In those cases, the suicide and even murder could be a courageous act.

 

But when you are a rich guy upset about having to do Mrs Doubtfire, because for some odd reason, despite all the money you have, it is not good enough, and you leave behind three devastated children, then I think it is cowardly, cruel, and should not be celebrated.

 

But how much pain should a person have to go through before they're justified in looking for a way out?  With physical pain, you can generally go to a doctor or a dentist and have it fixed.  But with mental and emotional pain, sometimes there's nothing anyone can do.  The meds don't always work.  How many years of agony should a person be expected to experience before we don't judge them for seeking a way to make the pain stop?

 

I'm not saying suicide is right or good, only that I'm not going to judge anyone who sees it as their only option.

[*Lulu*]

But when you are a rich guy upset about having to do Mrs Doubtfire, because for some odd reason, despite all the money you have, it is not good enough, and you leave behind three devastated children, then I think it is cowardly, cruel, and should not be celebrated.

That is quite possibly the most.........*counting to 10*

 

Okay, you do realise that the above is very dismissive of the grip depression takes on someone and the very real ways it changes his/her thoughts and reasoning abilities.

 

I also find it highly unkind to suggest that someone is less "allowed" to have a metal illness because of socioeconomic status.

[Caroline]

I don't understand this post. I just can't understand how you can be so mean towards people who are suffering so incredibly much. And money doesn't make mental illness go away.

 

My college roommate tried to commit suicide. She couldn't see another way out. It was awful. It was tragic. She survived. She now lives what looks like a great life. I know, though, that the depression still resides within her. Her husband can see it, and watches out for her. It's there. It's always lurking. And I can never get past, what should I have done differently? Why didn't I see it before things got to that point?

 

I believe it is always a cowardly way out. I know there are exceptions, like when someone is so far out of their mind that they really are not in control of their actions. That happens. But the rest of the cases, cowardly thing. And suicide should never be celebrated and no one should say the person is in a better place. If the person was unable to reconcile whatever was torturing them before death, why would death be better?

 

I need to make an exception. In times of war, maybe if someone stands to be tortured, or they are being used to hurt others. Or like how people have had to kill their own children in the Middle East to protect them from the Islamic State. In those cases, the suicide and even murder could be a courageous act.

 

But when you are a rich guy upset about having to do Mrs Doubtfire, because for some odd reason, despite all the money you have, it is not good enough, and you leave behind three devastated children, then I think it is cowardly, cruel, and should not be celebrated.

[SeaConquest]

Oh, ffs. This thread is awful. We're cowards. We're selfish. We make poor choices that bring about our defective brain chemistry. Geez, how much hurtful, insensitive, and unscientific drivel does one clinical depressive have to wade through in a day around here? Some of you really need to learn the meaning of 'but for the grace of God go I' before you blather on nonsensically about this topic. The reason there is suicide contagion is because these types of hurtful and stigmatizing comments are triggering for many of us. 

 

 

[maize]

For those who think suicide is a cowardly act, I do not think you understand the degree of mental impairment that occurs with severe depression. To act in a cowardly manner, a person has to A) have a reasonable grasp of their circumstances, B ) be able to perceive or imagine different possible courses of action, and C) make rational choices between those courses of action. A person suffering from depression or other mental illness may not in fact be able to do any of those things.

 

Perhaps a mild example of the kind of confusion and irrationality that can accompany mental illness would help. My husband suffers from chronic depression; thankfully he is among those whose depression mostly responds well to medication, but he has occasional relapses. In the course of one fairly mild relapse he was very irritable one day after watching the children while I was occupied elsewhere. He confronted me angrily later on with a long litany of the unbearable challenges he had faced during the day, and ended with "maybe you should try to watch four kids all day some time!"

 

Right then I knew there was no point trying to continue a discussion. This was, to him at that moment, rational thought and rational conversation. If his thought processes were so far compromised that he couldn't recognize the ridiculousness of his own words (um, dear, I'm the person who watches these four children all day every day, remember?!?) he was entirely beyond reason. And this, as I said, was during a fairly mild depressive episode. When he is in a deeper depression his ability to perceive and analyse reality is simply non-existent. If he made a decision at that point, there would be no way to analyse it from the point of view of normal, moderately rational (because humans are never entirely rational), morally responsible humanity.

 

ETA: By discussing the lack of rational thinking that can accompany depression or other mental illness I do not mean to imply that the pain and despair that a person suffering from depression experiences are not real. They are very real. 

[LibraryLover]

I was a little girl the first time I watched The Wizard of Oz. I was enthralled by Judy Garland and asked the adults around me what other movies she was in and how old was she now. Right off, one of those adults told me she was dead. I asked if she had been old when she died. "No, she was pretty young. She killed herself." I remember feeling so sad. I said, "well at least she is in heaven."

 

I'm a little kid and just saw this person perform her heart out ( that's how I felt, and I could not have been more than 9?). However, that person just straight -up said, " No. She is in hell because she killed herself." Right there is probably when much of my disbelief manifested into non- belief. No real god could suck that bad.

[Catwoman]

Oh, ffs. This thread is awful. We're cowards. We're selfish. We make poor choices that bring about our defective brain chemistry. Geez, how much hurtful, insenstive, and unscientific drivel does one clinical depressive have to wade through in a day around here? Some of you really need to learn the meaning of 'but for the grace of God go I' before you blather on nonsensically about this topic. The reason there is suicide contagion is because these types of hurtful and stigmatizing comments are triggering for many of us.

Monique, please try to keep in mind that the majority of those who have posted to this thread have not said anything like that.

 

Please don't focus on what a few very insensitive people have posted, and remember that most of us here DO NOT agree with their hurtful comments. :grouphug:

[SeaConquest]

Monique, please try to keep in mind that the majority of those who have posted to this thread have not said anything like that.

 

Please don't focus on what a few very insensitive people have posted, and remember that most of us here DO NOT agree with their hurtful comments. :grouphug:

 

I know you're right, and appreciate all the support here. But, as any 'glass is half full' depressive, my mind immediately goes straight to the hurtful stuff. Because, wow, there are some real doozies in this thread.

[Dory]

I don't understand this post. I just can't understand how you can be so mean towards people who are suffering so incredibly much. And money doesn't make mental illness go away.

 

My college roommate tried to commit suicide. She couldn't see another way out. It was awful. It was tragic. She survived. She now lives what looks like a great life. I know, though, that the depression still resides within her. Her husband can see it, and watches out for her. It's there. It's always lurking. And I can never get past, what should I have done differently? Why didn't I see it before things got to that point?

 

 

Because most people who are hurting aren't going to reach out to the people near them because they feel like they'll be rejected (some of the replies in this thread prove that point). It's hard to notice something that someone is working hard to cover up, until they finally reach a point they can't handle anymore and no one is there to catch them.

 

But really, reaching out can be hard. The rejection when one is at the bottom is brutally painful and when a person is already that low, they can't handle anymore pain, so they avoid it. Sometimes it's a 'fake it till ya make it' type of attitude. I've been told plenty of times that that's what I'm supposed to do. If I fake it for long enough then I'll eventually feel good. When I'm faking it like that no one sees where I'm at until I'm in the hospital though.

[Annie G]

I was a little girl the first time I watched The Wizard of Oz. I was enthralled by Judy Garland and asked the adults around me what other movies she was in and how old was she now. Right off, one of those adults told me she was dead. I asked if she had been old when she died. "No, she was pretty young. She killed herself." I remember feeling so sad. I said, "well at least she is in heaven."

 

I'm a little kid and just saw this person perform her heart out ( that's how I felt, and I could not have been more than 9?). However, that person just straight -up said, " No. She is in hell because she killed herself." Right there is probably when much of my disbelief manifested into non- belief. No real god could suck that bad.

 

 

The person who told you that was just mean. What possible purpose could it have served to tell a little kid that? And anyway, I have always read that her drug overdose was accidental, as there was no drug residue in her stomach. That indicates she took it over a long period of time, not just taking a bottle of pills at once in order to end her life. 

 

 

But nevertheless, that person was just mean. 

[BrookValley.]

I believe it is always a cowardly way out. I know there are exceptions, like when someone is so far out of their mind that they really are not in control of their actions. That happens. But the rest of the cases, cowardly thing. And suicide should never be celebrated and no one should say the person is in a better place. If the person was unable to reconcile whatever was torturing them before death, why would death be better?

 

I need to make an exception. In times of war, maybe if someone stands to be tortured, or they are being used to hurt others. Or like how people have had to kill their own children in the Middle East to protect them from the Islamic State. In those cases, the suicide and even murder could be a courageous act.

 

But when you are a rich guy upset about having to do Mrs Doubtfire, because for some odd reason, despite all the money you have, it is not good enough, and you leave behind three devastated children, then I think it is cowardly, cruel, and should not be celebrated.

Yes, because money cures everything, even mental illness.

 

If your post wasn't so callous and downright mean, I might have had myself a good chuckle over the sheer rudiculousness of your "logic" here. Instead, it just angers and saddens me. Have you read the rest of this thread? Did you read DragonFaerie's post? She just lost her father 2 months ago. Did you read SeaConquest's post? She battles severe depression. Yet you come here and call people cowards without one iota of a clue about the realities of depression or suicide?

 

Wow.

[bzymom]

Oh, ffs. This thread is awful. We're cowards. We're selfish. We make poor choices that bring about our defective brain chemistry. Geez, how much hurtful, insensitive, and unscientific drivel does one clinical depressive have to wade through in a day around here? Some of you really need to learn the meaning of 'but for the grace of God go I' before you blather on nonsensically about this topic. The reason there is suicide contagion is because these types of hurtful and stigmatizing comments are triggering for many of us.

I liked this because I think you got to the heart of it and I really appreciate that-but that "like" always feels a little odd in such circumstances. I admire your honesty so much.

 

And dragonFaerie, my deepest condolences. I hope you have a lot of love and support.

[myfunnybunch]

I have not read this thread, and I don't know if/when I'll be able to.  My father committed suicide two months ago, and I would never, EVER think him weak or cowardly.  He was kind, and he was thoughtful, and he was the smartest person I have ever known.  I think he was depressed, and I think he felt hopeless, and I think he was at a point where he felt like he couldn't go on.  I am devastated, and I wish he could have known how very many lives he touched and how many people truly loved and respected him.  But he was NOT weak or cowardly.

 

I am so sorry for your loss. Your father sounds like a wonderful person.

 

Cat

 

[myfunnybunch]

I believe it is always a cowardly way out. I know there are exceptions, like when someone is so far out of their mind that they really are not in control of their actions. That happens. But the rest of the cases, cowardly thing. And suicide should never be celebrated and no one should say the person is in a better place. If the person was unable to reconcile whatever was torturing them before death, why would death be better?

 

<snip>

 

But when you are a rich guy upset about having to do Mrs Doubtfire, because for some odd reason, despite all the money you have, it is not good enough, and you leave behind three devastated children, then I think it is cowardly, cruel, and should not be celebrated.

 

My heart just broke a little bit reading that. I wish you would go back through this thread and re-read the thoughts of those who have been in that awful, dark place, or who have watched loved ones suffer through severe depression and even lost loved ones to suicide. Read with an open mind, believing that the personal experiences they have shared are real and valid, and that the state of mind of someone suffering from suicidal thoughts IS that of one NOT in control of their thoughts, and thus not in control of their actions.

 

Blaming the victims of this disease instead of reaching out with a compassionate and helping heart is just grinding salt in a gaping wound.

 

Cat

[Dory]

Oh, ffs. This thread is awful. We're cowards. We're selfish. We make poor choices that bring about our defective brain chemistry. Geez, how much hurtful, insensitive, and unscientific drivel does one clinical depressive have to wade through in a day around here? Some of you really need to learn the meaning of 'but for the grace of God go I' before you blather on nonsensically about this topic. The reason there is suicide contagion is because these types of hurtful and stigmatizing comments are triggering for many of us. 

 

Thank you for saying all this. This thread completely hooked me today. I couldn't not read and respond to it, and yet now I'll pay for it.

[maize]

Thank you for saying all this. This thread completely hooked me today. I couldn't not read and respond to it, and yet now I'll pay for it.

 

(((Dory)))

[SeaConquest]

Thank you for saying all this. This thread completely hooked me today. I couldn't not read and respond to it, and yet now I'll pay for it.

 

Hugs. I've been reeling since the news of RW's death. It's not so much that I am into celebrities; it's just that I have such fond memories associated with him. And, I felt like, man, if he couldn't make it, what hope is there for the rest of us struggling with the same affliction? It all just feels terribly hopeless at times. For some of us, keeping ourselves alive really is a struggle. I know that some of you will never understand this POV and others will be nodding their heads. And this is me on a good day (i.e. meds are doing their job, no significant stresses in my life). I just don't think people understand how triggering these sorts of 'debates' can be for some of us treading water in an abyss of darkness and despair. 

 

ETA: A part of me knows that I shouldn't even wade into these threads, that I need to do a better job of protecting myself from the hurt. But, the other part of me hopes that engagement will contribute to understanding. Putting a real face and a real story to something that another person has never experienced -- I mean, that has to help, right?    

[TheBugs]

I really hope that my previous post wasn't interpreted as offensive when I wrote that some people with mental illnesses sometimes appear self-absorbed, even though they are actually sensitive and empathetic people. I am afraid that I have used the wrong words and didn't get across accurately what I was trying to say. I was trying to convey some of the conflicting feelings that a family member of a suicidal person may feel.

 

I apologize if anything I have said has caused hurt. Someone very dear to me made a very serious suicide attempt, so this subject is just so hard for me and I am trying to get an understanding of it all. And it is true that I don't really understand, even though I have had some suicidal thoughts myself in the past.

 

Anyway, I just want to send out love to all of you who suffer from depression or love someone who does.

[Dory]

I really hope that my previous post wasn't interpreted as offensive when I wrote that some people with mental illnesses sometimes appear self-absorbed, even though they are actually sensitive and empathetic people. I am afraid that I have used the wrong words and didn't get across accurately what I was trying to say. I was trying to convey some of the conflicting feelings that a family member of a suicidal person may feel.

 

I apologize if anything I have said has caused hurt. Someone very dear to me made a very serious suicide attempt, so this subject is just so hard for me and I am trying to get an understanding of it all. And it is true that I don't really understand, even though I have had some suicidal thoughts myself in the past.

 

Anyway, I just want to send out love to all of you who suffer from depression or love someone who does.

 

I know it can be very confusing and hard to understand being the person caring for the suicidal person. Thank you for the clarification and I am truly sorry for what your family must be feeling.

 

[mommymilkies]

I believe it is always a cowardly way out. I know there are exceptions, like when someone is so far out of their mind that they really are not in control of their actions. That happens. But the rest of the cases, cowardly thing. And suicide should never be celebrated and no one should say the person is in a better place. If the person was unable to reconcile whatever was torturing them before death, why would death be better?

 

I need to make an exception. In times of war, maybe if someone stands to be tortured, or they are being used to hurt others. Or like how people have had to kill their own children in the Middle East to protect them from the Islamic State. In those cases, the suicide and even murder could be a courageous act.

 

But when you are a rich guy upset about having to do Mrs Doubtfire, because for some odd reason, despite all the money you have, it is not good enough, and you leave behind three devastated children, then I think it is cowardly, cruel, and should not be celebrated.

 

This is by far the most offensive thing I've read on here ever and that's really saying something.  I beg of you to please think before you type.  

Hugs. I've been reeling since the news of RW's death. It's not so much that I am into celebrities; it's just that I have such fond memories associated with him. And, I felt like, man, if he couldn't make it, what hope is there for the rest of us struggling with the same affliction? It all just feels terribly hopeless at times. For some of us, keeping ourselves alive really is a struggle. I know that some of you will never understand this POV and others will be nodding their heads. And this is me on a good day (i.e. meds are doing their job, no significant stresses in my life). I just don't think people understand how triggering these sorts of 'debates' can be for some of us treading water in an abyss of darkness and despair. 

 

ETA: A part of me knows that I shouldn't even wade into these threads, that I need to do a better job of protecting myself from the hurt. But, the other part of me hopes that engagement will contribute to understanding. Putting a real face and a real story to something that another person has never experienced -- I mean, that has to help, right?    

:grouphug:

[Amy in NH]

As someone who has had suicidal thoughts in the past, I say brave and selfish.  The guilt associated with knowing I would be causing suffering to people I love kept me from going through with it; hurting others to relieve my own suffering is a selfish act.  I think it can only be excused in the case of terminal illness, but I do have compassion for those who are in such despair that they do it outside of those terms.  IMO, conquering fear of the unknown that lies beyond this life by taking effective steps to end your life is brave.

[myfunnybunch]

 But, the other part of me hopes that engagement will contribute to understanding. Putting a real face and a real story to something that another person has never experienced -- I mean, that has to help, right?    

 

Yes. Yes, it really really does help.

 

Because of people in my life who are brave enough to be vulnerable and share their stories and struggles, I have learned to have a great deal more compassion and understanding.

 

So hugs to you, and thank you for being a part of this discussion. I know there are many more people reading these threads than participating, and I know that all of the stories shared here can help people learn and grow in understanding.

 

Cat

[gardenmom5]

My father committed suicide.  (father's day weekend, the year I was 12.  I've been suicidal.)

 

suicide is NEVER "brave".  In certain circumstances it can be cowardly.  e.g. criminals who are about to be arrested (or have been sentenced to life in prison) and kill themselves rather than face the piper.

 

those who are mentally ill can be hurting so badly - they are no longer rational and not capable of making a rational choice.

 

 

eta:  some people also use suicide threats as a manipulative tool.  my sister did MANY, MANY times.  

[gardenmom5]

I believe it is always a cowardly way out. I know there are exceptions, like when someone is so far out of their mind that they really are not in control of their actions. That happens. But the rest of the cases, cowardly thing. And suicide should never be celebrated and no one should say the person is in a better place. If the person was unable to reconcile whatever was torturing them before death, why would death be better?

 

I need to make an exception. In times of war, maybe if someone stands to be tortured, or they are being used to hurt others. Or like how people have had to kill their own children in the Middle East to protect them from the Islamic State. In those cases, the suicide and even murder could be a courageous act.

 

But when you are a rich guy upset about having to do Mrs Doubtfire, because for some odd reason, despite all the money you have, it is not good enough, and you leave behind three devastated children, then I think it is cowardly, cruel, and should not be celebrated.

 

mental illness is a physiological condition.  it's a brain that is NOT working correctly.  sometimes, even with professional help and rx, it isn't enough.  I have a deep belief in life after death.  I also believe after death - everyone's brain is working they way it is supposed to, and they aren't mentally and emotionally tortured anymore.  (for actions they may have made when BECAUSE their brain wasn't working right.)  that said, I still believe that life is to be cherished.  (and I've been suicidal due to a serious chemical imbalance, and as a teen from massive grief and depression.)

 

and I agree with mommymilkies - your comments are ignorant and offensive.  my advice to you is develop some compassion.

 

 

[TheBugs]

edited...too much personal information :grouphug:

[kwg]

As an adult, I have been suicidal twice.  Once was truly awful.     I remember making a deal with myslef- I planted some bulbs and until they bloomed I would try.  Try the medication - when they bloomed if i still wanted to, I could then do it. 

 

For years those flowers would bloom and I would feel  sad and grateful -   They are a reminder of a very painful time.   The second time, I had a much better support system in place so, while upsetting, was not as....hard.  

 

My vote: neither brave or cowardly but just sad.

 

 

To the people who mention choice, I wonder what personal experiences you have with trauma and depression and anxiety?

 

 

Most of my family (other than my husband) and many of my close friends (after nearly 6-7 years) have no idea of  my struggles.  I think people would be shocked honestly. I graduated from college, had a job,  etc.  Now I homeschool and am doing the soccer mom thing.  I hate to think that "you" are using people like me to say it is a choice when the reality is, I was seriously depressed but would not have told anyone.--duh. they will stop me and then what will I do-- But from the outside? Shoot! Success! (from where I came from and what you would expect. many of my contemporaries  lived in cars or were in jail for example)

 

Anyhoo, that is my personal experience  :o

[mommymilkies]

My father committed suicide.  (father's day weekend, the year I was 12.  I've been suicidal.)

 

suicide is NEVER "brave".  In certain circumstances it can be cowardly.  e.g. criminals who are about to be arrested (or have been sentenced to life in prison) and kill themselves rather than face the piper.

 

those who are mentally ill can be hurting so badly - they are no longer rational and not capable of making a rational choice.

 

 

eta:  some people also use suicide threats as a manipulative tool.  my sister did MANY, MANY times.  

:grouphug:

 

The last part is what I'm having trouble articulating.  I do know someone like that.  To me, it's like a more extreme version of people who say they are OCD because they like their pillow placed just so or people who are so depressed because their show isn't on TV anymore. A plea for help or manipulation by someone truly in need of help/medical/psychiatric help also deserves attention and treatment-let's face it, anyone who does so needs help in some way. But I really hate seeing true calls for help with suicidal thoughts brushed off as pleas for attention by manipulators.  It makes it hard for some of us to get the support and treatment we need. That doesn't make any sense, does it? I feel rambly.  I should definitely not have come back to this thread after watching A Fault in Our Stars. 

[gardenmom5]

:grouphug:

 

The last part is what I'm having trouble articulating.  I do know someone like that.  To me, it's like a more extreme version of people who say they are OCD because they like their pillow placed just so or people who are so depressed because their show isn't on TV anymore. A plea for help or manipulation by someone truly in need of help/medical/psychiatric help also deserves attention and treatment-let's face it, anyone who does so needs help in some way. But I really hate seeing true calls for help with suicidal thoughts brushed off as pleas for attention by manipulators.  It makes it hard for some of us to get the support and treatment we need. That doesn't make any sense, does it? I feel rambly.  I should definitely not have come back to this thread after watching A Fault in Our Stars. 

 

I understand what you are saying - and I agree with you to a point.  I've watched my sister up close for too many years.  it's the "I want you to give me what I want so I'm going to threaten to kill myself". she deliberately chose that to provoke a strong reaction. - remember, my father committed suicide, and had made previous unsuccessful attempts that she was aware of.  (as you say, the extreme version of "I'm depressed because they cancelled my favorite show." or one girl that really irked me with "I'm an abused child because my parents said "no" to me."  um, no. )  and sister, when actually held accountable for the expressions and faced getting immediate mental health help, does major backtracking because it *wasn't* serious. eyeroll.

 

I've also had a friend who would make 'joking comments' about slitting her wrists, though she wasn't actually suicidal. she was VERY VERY stressed and feeling very overwhelmed and frustrated. I understand that too - because I've also been there.  I didn't want to die, I wanted to inflict enough physical pain to deaden all the mental anguish I was struggling with.  (my chosen method, the one I would think about "fondly", would have killed me.)

 

what I have since learned is mental/emotional stress - has the same effect upon the brain as depression.  because I wasn't depressed, I didn't seek help (I was "just stressed") - and didn't even mention things to dh (who was also very, very stressed by outside circumstances.).  It didn't help my dr. treated me like a hypochondriac. (I have friend's who also saw him at one time, and due to their own dissatisfaction with him they switched doc's too.)   my bishop eventually sent me to his dr (as soon as he found out what was going on.  he got me in that day.) when I was put on appropriate rx to stabilize the messed up chemistry, and that was when things immediately started getting better.

 

[Rosie_0801]

I think suicide as in the terminally ill or old and ready to go euthanasia is brave. In a society that seems to encourage fighting when there is no way to win, which only makes the person's last weeks more awful than they need to be (speaking for my experience only) that choice seems brave. I think it is brave to accept that the end comes when most of those around you are arguing and maybe even guilt tripping you into denying it.