UPDATE: so annoyed...City trying to over rule State law

[jewellsmommy]

Sorry if this has been complained about already.

 

The school board in the city of Hampton decided to impose some extra rules that go way above and beyond the state homeschool law.

 

This is VA law:

 

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+22.1-254.1

 

My friend's dh took their NOI into the Hampton School Board. They would not accept it. They told him he had to fill out their form. Our law does not require any particular form be used. This form requires more info be supplied than what the law requires. They also required that the form be notarized and that any child over 10 sign the form if you are homeschooling for health reasons. This is a 4 page form. They also refer to it as an Application as opposed to a Notice of Intent. The clerk informed my friend's dh that they would be denied if he did not fill out their form. :huh:  The law does NOT allow for this.

 

Here is a link to the form:

http://www.hampton.k12.va.us/departments/socialwork/Non-Religious%20Exemption%20Form-Updated-1.pdf

 

Hampton still has their old NOI linked on their school board page, but will not accept it. They are requiring the one linked above. The clerk told friend's dh that this is a new law, just passed, so he jumped through their hoops.

 

I have no problem following the law, but it infuriates me that this city is violating the state law in such an over-the-top way. :cursing:  We're not talking about arguing over birthdate vs age vs grade level. They turned the right to inform the state that you are homeschooling into the right to ask nicely if you may homeschool!

 

Please tell me that this would tick you off too!

 

 

 

UPDATE: My friend met with the Superintendent this afternoon. She got back the forms that they had her dh fill out and were notified! They accepted the original NOI instead, which is identical to what she had submitted the last 3 yrs and is the same form that I turn in every year (printed from HEAV).  The superintendent said that they re-wrote the forms last night and today! Their city supplied form now says notice instead of application. The only aspect that their city form kept that is still questionable is birth date instead of age. But, despite the fact that the HEAV form does NOT include birth date (just age) they still accepted it in lieu of theirs.

 

The superintendent did not agree that birth date was not required and that will remain on their form, but it is now a one page simple notice instead of that 4 page nonsense they were pushing. So HEAV or HSLDA can fight with them about the birth date and we will see where they settle out. I was very proud of my friend for actually getting back that form her dh filled out. She was respectful but insistent and used the law.

 

 

[Ewe Mama]

This would absolutely tick me off as well, and that's putting it quite mildly.

[Halftime Hope]

And there's a lawsuit in the making.

[unsinkable]

Based on what you wrote, it'd annoy me, too.

 

Sometimes the person at the local school who took my paper work ( vice principal ) would make little comments like, "Some parents attach lists of books their children read during the year" or " sometimes parents will include samples of work for each subject."

 

I'd make *I'm so fascinated by your words* sounds like "ooooooooooh!" then I'd say, "Bye! Have a nice day!" And I wouldn't let the door hit me in the a$$ as I boogied on out of there. Because I had no obligation to do those things, and more important, she had no authority to demand I provide them.

 

Your situation sounds different. Was there any attempt by homeschoolers to stop the new laws from being passed?

[Chris in VA]

Wow. I just send (sent--when we homeschooled) mine in. NO need to be face-to-face.

 

I think I'd just send another one in, according to state law, and go from there. Weird that the school district thinks they can get away with that.

[Ellie]

I hope your friends are members of HSLDA. This is exactly the kind of thing that they take on.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Do you 100% know that it is city law?  Have  you or your friend read the actual city law?  

[Amira]

I'd be pretty annoyed, and I'd do something about it.  That would probably involve my attorney dh sending a letter as an attorney, not just as a concerned parent, explaining our concerns, talking to other homeschoolers, and possibly going to the media.  We've done all those before with a different, non-homeschooling issue that affected a number of people. First though, I'd mail in (not take in) what VA required and keep a copy of what I mailed in so I could prove I'd followed state law.  

[jewellsmommy]

Based on what you wrote, it'd annoy me, too.

 

Sometimes the person at the local school who took my paper work ( vice principal ) would make little comments like, "Some parents attach lists of books their children read during the year" or " sometimes parents will include samples of work for each subject."

 

I'd make *I'm so fascinated by your words* sounds like "ooooooooooh!" then I'd say, "Bye! Have a nice day!" And I wouldn't let the door hit me in the a$$ as I boogied on out of there. Because I had no obligation to do those things, and more important, she had no authority to demand I provide them.

 

Your situation sounds different. Was there any attempt by homeschoolers to stop the new laws from being passed?

 

Home Education Association of Va says they have requested to meet with the school board attorney. Apparently, this was a last minute change. I didn't look, but I imagine HSLDA will be looking into it as well. Hampton is a pretty big city with a significant number of homeschoolers.

[ThisIsTheDay]

It's not annoying, it's illegal.  They don't have the authority to "not accept" an NOI.  All you have to do is notify them.  Send it registered mail, and you have proof that you have fulfilled the requirement.

 

Fwiw, I've lived in two counties in VA, and after receiving my NOI, each district has sent me a letter informing me that I have been "approved" to homeschool.  Um, no. They aren't able to "approve" anything. This past year though, my current district changed their letter to read that my NOI is "complete."  It made me happy; sometimes it's the small things.

 

I'd be personally contacting the superintendent to advise him of the state law.  I'd also probably start contacting my state legislators. Gosh, that would just piss me off.

[jewellsmommy]

This is from July 17th Legislative Update

 

School District Expands Its Notice of Intent Requirement

The Hampton City school board has adopted a policy that requires homeschoolers to complete and submit its “Home School and Non-Religious Exemption Application for Exemption from Compulsory Education†in lieu of a Notice of Intent form or letter. This application, approved by the Hampton school board attorney, requests information that goes well beyond what the law requires, and should be of concern to all homeschooling parents in Virginia.

 

The application states: “If you wish to apply for an exemption, you must fully complete the following form for consideration by the School Board of the City of Hampton. The application must be signed under oath by the parent(s) and pupil (if age 10 or older) and notarized by a Notary Public…An incomplete application will not be processed and failure to provide all of the required information will result in a denial of the exemption.â€

 

The form itself also asks parents for additional information including the student’s date of birth, grade level, and details about alternative program enrollment.

 

Complying With the Law

It is important for parents to know exactly what the law does and does not require.

 

When filing a Notice of Intent to Provide Home Instruction form, parents are not “applying†for permission to homeschool, but rather they are NOTIFYING the superintendent of the way in which they have complied with the homeschool the statute. The law does not state that a particular form must be used or that any form at all must be used—a parent could comply by writing a letter.

 

The Virginia homeschool law, §22.1-254.1, requires that parents provide evidence that they have met one of the four options listed in §22.1-254.1(A). The law states that a parent may homeschool if he has a high school diploma; or is a certified teacher; or provides a program of study or curriculum which may be delivered through a correspondence course or distance learning program or in any other manner; or provides evidence that he is able to provide an adequate education for the child.

 

The law also does not require parents to submit a child’s date of birth in order to homeschool. A child’s name and identifiers such as DOB or a social security number can be used as a means of tracking students. Many states are beginning to develop longitudinal databases to track students from birth to the workforce without the parent’s permission. Access to these databases can be shared with anyone the school system would like to share the information.

 

Rather than a birth date, a parent can provide a child’s age, which will indicate whether or not a child is under compulsory attendance laws.

 

Neither does the law require that a Notice of Intent form be notarized, nor does it require a student to sign the form.

 

HEAV has been in contact with the homeschool liaison, Dr. Copeland, from Hampton City Schools. He has indicated that they prefer that parents use the forms provided on their website. HEAV has requested a meeting with the superintendent, Dr. Copeland, and the school board attorney to clarify the requirements of the law in regard to the Notice of Intent and the City of Hampton’s additional forms.

 

...

[jewellsmommy]

It's not annoying, it's illegal.  They don't have the authority to "not accept" an NOI.  All you have to do is notify them.  Send it registered mail, and you have proof that you have fulfilled the requirement.

 

Fwiw, I've lived in two counties in VA, and after receiving my NOI, each district has sent me a letter informing me that I have been "approved" to homeschool.  Um, no. They aren't able to "approve" anything. This past year though, my current district changed their letter to read that my NOI is "complete."  It made me happy; sometimes it's the small things.

 

I'd be personally contacting the superintendent to advise him of the state law.  I'd also probably start contacting my state legislators. Gosh, that would just piss me off.

 

Oh, I no. I hate that. I always grumble to the letter and rant a little when I get it. :lol:  

 

Unfortunately, those who mailed in the old form will be getting letters requiring them to re-submit with the new form. This is according to the school board. My friend (in the op) started making calls as soon as her dh told her what happened. That was one of her questions to the clerk of the board: "What if we had just mailed it in? then what would you have done?" She got the number to the school board attorney too, but no one answered.

 

I hand deliver ours and have them sign my copy. I'm in a different city than my friend. Our school board is 2 min from my house. I can walk there in 10. I turn in my NOI and test scores at the same time.

 

I have many Hampton friends and can't wait to see this play out. You would think that an attorney would know the law!

[jewellsmommy]

Do you 100% know that it is city law?  Have  you or your friend read the actual city law?  

 

I know the state law and that is what they have to follow too no matter what rule the school board passes. No, it is not even a city ordinance. It is the City of Hampton's School Board that passed what the clerk called a law. It is actually an order of the school board though.

[Slartibartfast]

 I would alert the local homeschool community and whip them into a frothing mass of fury.

[Slartibartfast]

It seems I am still double posting

 

[jewellsmommy]

Wow. I just send (sent--when we homeschooled) mine in. NO need to be face-to-face.

 

I think I'd just send another one in, according to state law, and go from there. Weird that the school district thinks they can get away with that.

 

The school board claims that it won't make a difference. No one I know personally has gotten back a letter of approval :rolleyes:  or a request for a new form yet.

 

 

ETA: Unfortunately, my friend's dh did as they wanted. He filled out their form and had it notarized too. One form per child. He was too scared not to, poor guy. He hand delivered because he had the test scores too, and they are due Friday.

[Slartibartfast]

Someone running for a local office said something negative about homeschooling and she did not get a nice reaction. Not at all. She did quite a lot of back tracking and wrote sweet notes to the local HS organizations. It was *hilarious*

[Halftime Hope]

The school board claims that it won't make a difference. No one I know personally has gotten back a letter of approval :rolleyes:  or a request for a new form yet.

 

 

The homeschoolers should "claim that the board's new requirements don't make a difference" to homeschoolers.  They will all comply with state law.  Period.  (...and I'm being snarky.  Sorry.)

[jewellsmommy]

The homeschoolers should "claim that the board's new requirements don't make a difference" to homeschoolers.  They will all comply with state law.  Period.  (...and I'm being snarky.  Sorry.)

 

I so agree. I hope every Hampton homeschooler becomes a pain in the school board's rear end! :lol:

[Tap]

I don't understand why people say this is illegal.  (not being snarky, I really don't understand)

 

There are Fedal Laws, State Laws and City laws/ordinances.  They can be different and the person residing in an area has to abide by the most strict of all the laws that govern their area.

 

 

Why would a city law Or School Board decision be considered illegal, if it was passed via the legal process set forth?  

 

Maybe it is over the top.  Maybe it can be recinded if people show they don't find it appropriate and worth while, but you still may need to abide by the rule in the meanwhile.

 

That being said.....I am pretty well known for my asking people who govern "what are the consequences if I break xyz rule".  If I find the consequences worth it, I am likely to do as I wish and just deal with the fall out.  

[jewellsmommy]

I don't understand why people say this is illegal.  (not being snarky, I really don't understand)

 

There are Fedal Laws, State Laws and City laws/ordinances.  They can be different and the person residing in an area has to abide by the most strict of all the laws that govern their area.

 

 

Why would a city law Or School Board decision be considered illegal, if it was passed via the legal process set forth?  

 

Maybe it is over the top.  Maybe it can be recinded if people show they don't find it appropriate and worth while, but you still may need to abide by the rule in the meanwhile.

 

That being said.....I am pretty well known for my asking people who govern "what are the consequences if I break xyz rule".  If I find the consequences worth it, I am likely to do as I wish and just deal with the fall out.  

 

1. This is a school board rule, not even a city's ordinance. but let us assume that it was a city ordinance for conversation purposes:

In short, a local municipality can over rule a state law when its affects only the interests of a municipality. For instance land rights issues where the land is in the city in question. But there are very narrow margins where a city wins the fight.  There are homeschoolers in the entire state so the breadth of the subject matter is one that falls under the need for uniformity . The state has a stake in the education choices of all the citizens in its state. When there is a need for governmental uniformity, the state wins. When there is  the co-mingling of funds, the state wins. Then there is a matter of established precedent. The state wins a majority of the time. I'm not explaining this well... :lol: 

 

But this isn't even city vs state. This is a school board rule vs state law. The state of Va gives VA residents the right to homeschool under the provisions the state establishes. The school board cannot deny that right to those who are abiding by the state law.

[Ellie]

I so agree. I hope every Hampton homeschooler becomes a pain in the school board's rear end! :lol:

 

I would give a great deal at this moment to be (1) still homeschooling and (2) living in Hampton, 'cuz y'all know that I can really be a pain in the rear! :laugh:

[idnib]

I would be really ticked off.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Oh, I no. I hate that. I always grumble to the letter and rant a little when I get it. :lol:

 

Unfortunately, those who mailed in the old form will be getting letters requiring them to re-submit with the new form. This is according to the school board. My friend (in the op) started making calls as soon as her dh told her what happened. That was one of her questions to the clerk of the board: "What if we had just mailed it in? then what would you have done?" She got the number to the school board attorney too, but no one answered.

 

I hand deliver ours and have them sign my copy. I'm in a different city than my friend. Our school board is 2 min from my house. I can walk there in 10. I turn in my NOI and test scores at the same time.

 

I have many Hampton friends and can't wait to see this play out. You would think that an attorney would know the law!

I'm not in a state where I'm required to notify a district, but here's what I would do: fill out the old form and attach a copy of the state law. Send it certified mail (whatever it takes to make them sign for it so you get a receipt). When they send the notice demanding the new form, send a refusal, and re-send the copy of the law. Lather, rinse, repeat as necessary.

[happi duck]

...

 

Sometimes the person at the local school who took my paper work ( vice principal ) would make little comments like, "Some parents attach lists of books their children read during the year" or " sometimes parents will include samples of work for each subject."

...

I quite dislike when homeschoolers over-share muddying the waters and affecting expectations.

 

Stop the over-sharing!!!

[TammyS]

 

Please tell me that this would tick you off too!

 

It wouldn't tick me off.  I would just ignore it.  Send in what is required, but no more, along with a copy of the state's law.  If they aren't happy about it, tough titty.

[TammyS]

 I think it's pretty bold to ask a child to sign something, as if they have the legal authority to sign anything.  Hm.

 

The application must be signed under oath by the parent(s) and pupil (if age 10 or older) and notarized by a Notary Public

...

 

 

[TammyS]

 

 

Why would a city law Or School Board decision be considered illegal, if it was passed via the legal process set forth?  

 

 

Because school boards don't have the power to pass laws of any kind, at any level, at all.

 

They have the power to run their school district, that's it.

[Katy]

I wonder why the change.  Does it have to do with funding, are they trying to get information to target homeschoolers for increasing enrollment, are they selling the information to marketing companies?

 

No way, no how would I comply.  I might write a letter explaining my refusal to comply and citing the law, but that's it.

[unsinkable]

I quite dislike when homeschoolers over-share muddying the waters and affecting expectations.

 

Stop the over-sharing!!!

I hope I was clear that I turn in nothing more than what is required.

 

In our area, there was the state law but the problem came bc paperwork was turned into a person at the school that your child would attend if she went to B&M school. So each contact person at each school could make these little comments.

 

And some parents don't know the rules or don't want to rock the boat...or they don't see a problem with attaching book lists, etc.

 

My feeling: give what is required and nothing more.

[TammyS]

I wonder why the change.  Does it have to do with funding, are they trying to get information to target homeschoolers for increasing enrollment, are they selling the information to marketing companies?

 

No way, no how would I comply.  I might write a letter explaining my refusal to comply and citing the law, but that's it.

A lot of times it's just a power grab.  As a people, we are highly conditioned (starting in kindy), to submit most of our lives to some form of government approval.  Some people can't stand to see others doing anything outside of it, even when it doesn't hurt them in the least.

[Onceuponatime]

Wow! I'm in Virginia. I turned in my test scores and NOI on Tuesday morning and got my "approval" (snicker) in the mail on Wednesday. I never give anything extra.

[Alice]

I'm in VA and I sent in my NOI and scores via email and got the acceptance letters back a couple days later. Easy-peasy. There are a lot of homeschoolers in the Hampton Roads area, I have a feeling this will get overturned. 

[Kathryn]

I don't understand why people say this is illegal. (not being snarky, I really don't understand)

 

There are Fedal Laws, State Laws and City laws/ordinances. They can be different and the person residing in an area has to abide by the most strict of all the laws that govern their area.

 

 

Why would a city law Or School Board decision be considered illegal, if it was passed via the legal process set forth?

 

Maybe it is over the top. Maybe it can be recinded if people show they don't find it appropriate and worth while, but you still may need to abide by the rule in the meanwhile.

 

That being said.....I am pretty well known for my asking people who govern "what are the consequences if I break xyz rule". If I find the consequences worth it, I am likely to do as I wish and just deal with the fall out.

Even if it were a new city law and not just the school board, which it appears to be, if the state law says you have a *right* to do something, the city (or school board) cannot say that you must jump through their hoops to apply to be granted the *privilege* to do that thing.

[Spryte]

I heard about this (VA Homeschoolers sent out a notice, and they've been in contact with the school board's attorney as well, but without much luck yet), and feel for you.  They are overstepping.  There is another VA county overstepping this year, too - it seems to be contagious.

 

:grouphug:

 

 

[I talk to the trees]

We just moved into a new district in VA. (No, hot Hampton, thankfully!) I haven't turned in my NOI yet. Now I'm chewing my nails and wondering if this nonsense will spread! We had to pitch a bit of a fit and get HSLDA involved once in NY when the district overstepped their bounds. I really hope that doesn't happen here.

[I talk to the trees]

I heard about this (VA Homeschoolers sent out a notice, and they've been in contact with the school board's attorney as well, but without much luck yet), and feel for you.  They are overstepping.  There is another VA county overstepping this year, too - it seems to be contagious.

 

:grouphug:

 

Ugh! Which county? We haven't officially joined any organizations here yet, and I haven't seen any emails from friends.

[Ellie]

We just moved into a new district in VA. (No, hot Hampton, thankfully!) I haven't turned in my NOI yet. Now I'm chewing my nails and wondering if this nonsense will spread! We had to pitch a bit of a fit and get HSLDA involved once in NY when the district overstepped their bounds. I really hope that doesn't happen here.

 

There will always be school officials, in every state, who come up with the brilliant idea that they can make up their own rules. It is why homeschoolers must be ever vigilant, even those who live in states like Texas or Oklahoma or New Jersey or any of the other "green" states.

[Angie in VA]

Wow, look at all my fellow Virginians! I want to ask all of you Virginians where you are, but then, being a privacy freak, I wouldn't tell you where I am, so I'll apply the golden rule and not ask. 

 

I would mail in my paper work, return-receipt, w/ tracking to prove it was received. (One year I didn't get the little green card back, so I printed off the tracking info that said the time and date it was delivered). 

 

I once lived in a county where the person whose job it was to work w/ homeschoolers wanted different color paperwork each year. Yeah, like I was going to go by that. I typed my letter, printed if on WHITE PAPER, included what I needed and mailed it in. 

 

Recently, I heard of a county that all of a sudden wanted new info for religious exemption. Turns out some employee sent out that letter to all RE hsers. The school board had NO IDEA that she did that. The school board sent an apology letter to everyone who'd received that first letter. 

 

All that's so say, I'd ignore their request and submit what I need to BY LAW (using the method I described above to prove I'd sent it in, keeping copies of what I sent in too). I might print off a copy of the law and include that. I would definitely write the school board (the member in your district) and point out this illegal practice. 

 

 

[shawthorne44]

Wrong thread.  Sorry!

[Farrar]

I also saw this on the VaHomeschoolers email notice.  They said something to the effect that they're working on it and for anyone experiencing it to contact them.  I can only assume that maybe HEAV is as well.

[mom2scouts]

Did all the superintendents around the country have a meeting or something?  This is my fifth year of homeschooling and this year I'm hearing story after story in my area about school districts asking for more than required for the notice.  I would think with all the new CC requirements, they have more than enough work to do with the students they have!

[Moxie]

I wonder how this came about?? One busy body board member?? Do they really think they need the extra info or are they just trying to be a PITA to the homeschool community?? Are they just trying to prove that they are the boss?? How did the school board's attorney not stop this before it started?? Bizarre.

[Cinder]

This sort of reminds me of when we lived in KY and got a letter from the school district asking about special needs requirements for our students. Turned out that since homeschools in KY are considered private schools they get the same correspondence that goes out to traditional B&M private schools. The school district personnel were very nice about it when explaining why we got that letter and just said we didn't have to turn it in.

 

(Oh, this was back when we had to give a declaration of intent. I don't think KY requires that anymore? So this scenario probably hasn't happened since then.)

[Spryte]

Ugh! Which county? We haven't officially joined any organizations here yet, and I haven't seen any emails from friends.

 

Buckingham County. 

 

From VAHomeschoolers' website:

 

Buckingham County

We have also received reports of school officials in Buckingham County requesting that homeschoolers make an appointment for the parents and their children to meet with school officials to fill out paperwork and answer questions. While the law allows for dialoguing with students in granting religious exemption, no meeting with parents or students is required by law under the home instruction statute. We are currently in the process of contacting school division officials and will provide updates as we get more information. 

[Haiku]

There are a lot of homeschoolers in the Hampton Roads area, I have a feeling this will get overturned. 

 

It doesn't need to be overturned. It needs to be ignored. It's illegal.

 

This makes me  :willy_nilly: , and I don't even live in VA.

[Reefgazer]

HEAV and HSLDA have already been in contact with those districts and I'm sure it won't last long.  If you are a member of HSLDA and mail your info in on their letterhead (return receipt requested), you likely will not be bothered.

[Reefgazer]

Because homeschool regulations are under the control of the state of Virginia, which says the things Hampton requires are not required and homeschoolers in VA don't have to submit that stuff.

I don't understand why people say this is illegal.  (not being snarky, I really don't understand)

 

There are Fedal Laws, State Laws and City laws/ordinances.  They can be different and the person residing in an area has to abide by the most strict of all the laws that govern their area.

 

 

Why would a city law Or School Board decision be considered illegal, if it was passed via the legal process set forth?  

 

Maybe it is over the top.  Maybe it can be recinded if people show they don't find it appropriate and worth while, but you still may need to abide by the rule in the meanwhile.

 

That being said.....I am pretty well known for my asking people who govern "what are the consequences if I break xyz rule".  If I find the consequences worth it, I am likely to do as I wish and just deal with the fall out.  

 

[Haiku]

I went toe-to-toe with our district a few years ago. They put some new lady in charge of processing homeschool notifications, and she didn't know the law. She "denied" my "permission to homeschool" because I sent in only composite test scores, and she wanted the subscores. In talking with her it was plain she didn't know what she was talking about. I sent a copy of the law and a strongly worded letter, told them I was well within compliance with the law, and requested (more like demanded) my excusal notice (I also reminded them they can't "deny permission," as I don't need their permission and their only job is to make sure I am in compliance). I got my excusal. Many families in our district had trouble with that lady that year. They all raised a stink. After that we had no more problems.

 

(That lady told one family that she had no idea that there was any other homeschool curriculum than Abeka!!)

[Alice]

The Buckingham County requirements might be related to Josh Powell (the homeschooled kid who had the article about him in the Wash. Post because he disagrees with homeschooling now). There was also a bill this year that aimed to "study the religious exemption provision". It effectively died in committee I believe but I think some of this might be behind the counties who are asking for more things in VA this year. (I'm not justifying, just explaining why we might be seeing it more here this year.) 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/students-home-schooling-highlights-debate-over-va-religious-exemption-law/2013/07/28/ee2dbb1a-efbc-11e2-bed3-b9b6fe264871_story.html

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/virginia-lawmaker-seeks-to-clarify-education-law-on-religious-exemptions/2014/01/14/71a686dc-7c8c-11e3-9556-4a4bf7bcbd84_story.html