Morality and Health

[Soror]

I've been curious about this for a long time, where I live, in the rural Midwest it seems to be an unspoken and alluded to fact that one's health is some kind of outward sign of their morality. There seems to be a contest as to who is the healthiest, bragging about never been sick or lack of dr. visits is common, like doing otherwise makes you less of a person in some way. And if you are sick it is better to suffer than to actually take any kind of medicine. It bothers me to no end. What about the people born with some type of condition or disease? What about the parent's of chronically ill children, they surely don't need some guilt trip.

 

As it is I feel a bit embarrassed to be going to the doctor around some people, even though I've not felt good for awhile. Just last week someone made a comment about people taking medicine and running to the dr when I mentioned going. At this point I would be happy to pop a pill if it made me feel better. I'm personally thankful for modern medicine, even though I rarely use it, I'm happy to have it when I need it.

 

Ah, I feel so much better to get that off my chest.....

[regentrude]

Living in rural Midwest too, this is not something I have ever encountered.

 

I hope you feel better soon.

[Kathryn]

I have not encountered that attitude at all. I live in the Southeast.

[prairiewindmomma]

We have that attitude here, in the part of the rural midwest where I live.

 

False pride manifests itself in various ways....as a chronically ill person with chronically ill children, it drives me nuts. I'd love to educate them on genetics. ;)

[Slartibartfast]

I have not encountered what you are saying, I have lived in the Midwest and now I live in the Southeast.

 

 

My grandfather's family sometimes talks about never going to the Dr as kids but they were dirt poor living during the Dust Bowl in Oklahoma. They didn't have money to go to the Dr. They don't talk like people ought not go to the Dr. I don't think it is a morality thing but that it is some sort of old fashioned way of living from a less advantaged time period.

[Soror]

Hmm, well it is pretty strong in my own family of origin. "Cousin Sue took Jimmy to the Dr. again, there always going to the Dr. They sure are a sickly family" Nod, nod, wink, wink our family is much stronger/better than them, we don't have to go to the dr so much.  Also, a lot of "natural" folks I know seem to eschew medicine and doctors, I've heard more than one person say they would never go to a traditional doctor. In this community any "natural" treatment is great and wonderful, no matter whether there is any evidence but traditional medicine is a wretched thing that only ignorant sheeple use.

[happi duck]

This reminds me of a story...

My ds was a large baby and I had a c-section. A woman at church upon hearing that sniffed and said "Well, I had a ten pound baby without a c-section". I was thinking " um...good for you?"

 

Weird.

 

Eta: this was definitely a case of her feeling superior for not needing any medical intervention to birth her baby

[Word Nerd]

I also live in the rural Midwest and have not experienced that personally. I did know a handful of people in our former state who linked health to one's faith, though—they were part of the word-faith belief system. 

[Amy in NH]

Well I think there is probably some aspect of morality in the concern for lifestyle choices that drive up the cost of health care for others and behaviors that put others at risk financially and otherwise.  There is also morality of self-control/self-discipline that plays into that. 

 

For instance, it is pretty selfish for my spouse to choose to smoke tobacco knowing that it may lead to his family suffering through his expensive medical care and death along with the accompanying missing emotional support and the his lost income.  Not to mention that if my kids knew he smoked that would teach them that it is "okay" and could lead to their trying it.  And if he actually smoked around them/in the house, then we would be dealing with second-hand issues of smoke and chemicals on our clothes and furniture.  And it is an expensive habit when we sometimes struggle with bills.  So, yeah, I'd say that's a moral decision he is making that impacts the people around him. 

 

The same types of moral choices are made about diet and exercise, as well as possibly other lifestyle choices.

[Chris in VA]

Well I think there is probably some aspect of morality in the concern for lifestyle choices that drive up the cost of health care for others and behaviors that put others at risk financially and otherwise.  There is also morality of self-control/self-discipline that plays into that. 

 

For instance, it is pretty selfish for my spouse to choose to smoke tobacco knowing that it may lead to his family suffering through his expensive medical care and death along with the accompanying missing emotional support and the his lost income.  Not to mention that if my kids knew he smoked that would teach them that it is "okay" and could lead to their trying it.  And if he actually smoked around them/in the house, then we would be dealing with second-hand issues of smoke and chemicals on our clothes and furniture.  And it is an expensive habit when we sometimes struggle with bills.  So, yeah, I'd say that's a moral decision he is making that impacts the people around him. 

 

The same types of moral choices are made about diet and exercise, as well as possibly other lifestyle choices.

 

Have to account for addiction, too, though.

 

[Amy in NH]

Have to account for addiction, too, though.

 

 

But you can choose to succumb to addiction, or get help/fight it.  That is a moral choice that shows strength (or lack) of character.

[Chris in VA]

I am sensitive to this topic--so I don't want to argue.

 

I will say, though, that I don't find those in recovery to be morally superior to those not in recovery.

 

I used to think that way, but I don't anymore.

 

If anything, those I know in recovery are stunningly humble and would never judge themselves better than anyone else. Ever.

[Joyofsixreboot]

We have that attitude here, in the part of the rural midwest where I live.

 

False pride manifests itself in various ways....as a chronically ill person with chronically ill children, it drives me nuts. I'd love to educate them on genetics. ;)

It happens here too. It was the attitude I was raised with. My dad lives with pain because he won't take medicine. It seems particularly prevalent in people from the depression/WWII. Maybe because no one could afford a doctor or people abused narcotic patent medicines? I fight feeling it myself. I know going to the doctor doesn't make me a weak whiner but that little voice in my head disagrees.

[SKL]

I wonder if it has anything to do with Christian Science.  I am in the Midwest and Christian Science was a thing here back when my parents were kids.  Their main book (which my grandma gave me, as that was her faith) is called "Science and Health."  They don't believe in going to the doctor, they believe that health is all in your mind, just like the Bible says that if your faith is strong enough you can move a mountain.  They believe that disciples of Jesus (even today) have the power to perform miracles including healing.  Stuff like that.

 

I have read this and other similar philosophies, and I have to say there is some truth to it, as actual science has proven.  Definitely a positive outlook and strong social relationships and even church membership are correlated with good physical and mental health.  (Though the cause and effect can go both ways.) 

 

It is also true that there have been times when doctors were too ready to medicate and even operate, wasting money and often leading to more health problems instead of less.  And as an economic decision, it can be scary to go to the doctor without being really sure it's needed, so there is comfort in an accepted norm to try everything else first.

 

When I was a kid, my parents were poor and my mom handled a lot of things that most people would consider reason to go to the doctor.  None of us are any the worse for wear.  And yes, my mom used to laugh about people who ran their kids (or themselves) to the doctor for every runny nose.

 

ETA, it was my dad who was raised Christian Scientist, but my mom was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, and her beef with doctors was that they were too ready to give people blood.  When she had surgeries (for woman stuff / cancer) she always told them not to give her blood unless it was a life or death situation.  And usually they didn't need it.

[SKL]

Oh yeah, and this is what Aretha Franlkin had to say:

 

... How'd you get your pants so tight? Don't know what you're doin' But you must be livin' right, yeah ....

 

[Slartibartfast]

It happens here too. It was the attitude I was raised with. My dad lives with pain because he won't take medicine. It seems particularly prevalent in people from the depression/WWII. Maybe because no one could afford a doctor or people abused narcotic patent medicines? I fight feeling it myself. I know going to the doctor doesn't make me a weak whiner but that little voice in my head disagrees.

 

I live with pain because I won't take the medicine. They don't necessarily just hand out narcotics, they will give you crap about it (even seeing your condition on an MRI) or try to prescribe off label things that make you feel "weird." One of the things they prescribed me is for epilepsy and it made me sleep all the time. A different medication made me have such INSANE dreams that I woke up exhausted because I was running around all night in my head.

 

 

[SKL]

Oh, one more thing that has nothing to do with morality, but a reason some people may be afraid to take pain meds.  My dad had a surgery and a lot of pain afterward, and they prescribed Oxycontin.  It was extremely, extremely difficult to get off that drug (you can't do it at all except very gradually) and it made him feel like his mind was not his own.  I would wait a long time before taking any mind-altering drug.

[Ottakee]

I am in West Michigan and see some of that.  Part of it might be growing up in a rural area with not a ton of money and no health insurance for most people.  Going to the doctor just wasn't done much back then.

 

I do wonder though if some now adult health issues could have been prevented with proper care as a child----ear infections and now hearing loss, repeated bladder infections, one girl that had a sinus infection FOREVER and I think felt poorly much of the time due to it, etc.

 

I am ever so thankful for top notch doctors in our area (we are 35 minutes for a major medical center).  Dh had a heart attack and was in surgery in under an hour of arriving at ER (and only that long as they already had someone in surgery when he arrived as otherwise it is a goal of 20 minutes or less from door to OR).  Our 2 girls have many medical conditions that require many daily meds likely for life.

 

On the flip side, I am slower to hand out Advil or other OTC meds as I don't want them to get the idea that every little ache and pain or minor discomfort requires a pill to treat it.  Sometimes you just need some sleep, a warm bath, a bit of time, etc.

[Ravin]

I think false pride goes into a lot of it. Being poor but buying in to the idea that accepting public assistance is tantamount to moral failure is also a part of it, especially when applying it to children's health. 

 

My dad is a Vietnam vet, and only now, after  multiple heart attacks and (the last straw) being diagnosed with cancer is he willing to file for VA compensation/benefits, because, gee, maybe it was the Agent Orange. Never mind his PTSD which went untreated for decades and probably contributed to the demise of my parents' marriage.

 

The attitude multiples a hundred fold if you bring mental health into it, especially addiction. 

 

Virtue and resilience are not synonyms, and one is not more virtuous for having suffered unnecessarily. 

 

That said, caution about medications is something people with long memories may have reason for. There are many examples from the 20th Century of some "miracle drug" having unforeseen and severe negative side effects. Thalidomide, DES, Fenphen, etc. And relying on medication alone for non-acute pain management is a recipe for disaster for anyone with a predisposition to addiction--which is not a moral failure, it's a result of genetic make up and the way the delicate balance of a person's brain chemicals react to foreign substances.

 

According to statistics I heard at a LEAP presentation (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition), about 1.5% of people became seriously, chronically addicted to drugs before anything was restricted or banned (early 20th century), and today? About 1.5% of people become seriously, chronically  addicted to some kind of drugs.

 

Confusing the hazards of medical risks with moral hazard is a serious flaw of reasoning many people make in passing moral judgment or in treating health as some sort of illustration of moral virtue. It's seldom based on any rational health risks, though--it gets generalized to things that have nothing to do with mitigation of risk. I'd be willing to bet people with the attitude the OP describes are not less likely to smoke, for example, or more likely to eat a healthier diet than others, etc.

[prairiewindmomma]

I'm going to jump back in this conversation for a second, as I've thought about this more this afternoon.

 

When my young daughter was diagnosed with terminal cancer, a lot of people unconsciously began to avoid us. It was easier to shun us than to deal with the fact that bad things sometimes happen to good people.....because if cancer happened to *us* then maybe it could happen to *them* and that was too scary to seriously contemplate.

 

So, I think an underpinning to the morality argument made above is fear. People wish that if they could just be morally good that nothing bad would ever happen to their family.

[Pawz4me]

I don't think I've encountered anyone in real life who seems to believe there's a connection between health and morality.  But I've seen it strongly hinted at on message boards (including this one).  Many times.

[Anacharsis]

Might there be many Seventh Day Adventists in your area? I get the impression that Adventists believe that maintaining a healthy body is part of the moral framework, because it means that one has resisted the temptations of sloth and gluttony. (https://www.adventist.org/vitality/health/)

 

I could easily see people mixing up the positive and the negative; assuming that since someone with a healthy body is unlikely to be slothful or gluttonous, someone with an ill body must be slothful or gluttonous, even though there are many reasons a person might become ill that are unrelated to sloth or gluttony. :-/

[OneStepAtATime]

Soror, I have lived in many placed in the States (and elsewhere) and yes, I do think in some areas there is a bit of a superior attitude perpetuated if you never go to the doctor.  And for those who do have to go to the doctor, even if you are extremely ill or have a chronic issue, there is this subtle implication that maybe if you had made better choices you wouldn't have to go.  It seems that, to some, getting professional medical help means that you are a weak person mentally or perhaps morally.  (I am uncertain which way).  This also extends to seeking out psychological help, as others have mentioned.

 

Do some people make terrible lifestyle choices?  Yes.  A dear friend of mine passed away this weak.  He died of lung cancer.  He smoked at least a full pack every day for decades so it was not unexpected.  He made poor choices and suffered the consequences.  Was he a bad person?  I don't think so.  He was a loving husband and father, he was a great coworker and friend, and he will definitely be missed.  Did he make a bad choice?  Well, I don't want to go into addiction and choice since I don't think that is what is really being discussed here.

 

Soror, you seem to be saying that people around you make you feel morally inferior for not feeling well and seeking medical advice to determine why you feel poorly and how to hopefully fix it.  And I agree that there are places in our country where that is definitely the attitude.  One of my BIL's has a knee that is in terrible shape.  He has not lead a bad lifestyle but he did injure his knee when he was younger.  That injury was not dealt with correctly.  He has not sought medical attention in over a decade because he was made to feel guilty for not being able to handle a "little pain".  He may end up unable to walk very soon and is in constant agony.  Maybe this was a macho issue, not a moral issue so much because he is a man, though.  I cannot say. 

 

I do know that while families are usually sympathetic when a child in our church has chronic health issues, they also seem to be judging the family behind their backs.  They tend to seek poor lifestyle choices to blame for the health issues even if there is no concrete evidence that it was poor lifestyle choices AT ALL that has affected the child's health condition.  There is, at times, a sort of holier than thou attitude, or at least a "well, if they had only done............, that child might be in better shape right now." whether there is any evidence of this in real life or not...

 

I have hypoglycemia.  When I was diagnosed I was 8 years old.  My father blamed my grandparents for a few years because my grandmother would bake wonderful pies and cakes and my grandfather would walk me to the local drug store to buy candy sometimes when we went to visit them.  Did i eat too many sweets consistently?  No.  Was I overweight or inactive?  No.  Not at all.  

 

Diabetes runs in our family.  My grandfather was thin, ate well, exercised, never smoked, but still became diabetic.  My dad did, too.  So did MANY relatives on my father's side.  Did genetics play a part?  Probably.  Also, I had a short urethra (a defect having nothing to do with my lifestyle choices) so I got constant kidney infections for years until I hit my teens.  Possibly a contributing factor.  No way to know for certain at this point.  But Dad saw us having to go to the doctor a lot  to help me with both of these issues as reflecting badly on his lifestyle choices for us as a family and in turn blamed his parents (I suspect subconsciously to deflect blame from himself as the head of the household).  I do not believe that my health issues had anything to do with me or my parents' moral inferiority or lack of character strength or anything along those lines, but I think Dad felt like others did.

 

[Soror]

Yes, sometimes you do everything "right" and you're still sick. I actually lead a healthier life than pretty much everyone I know. I rarely go to the dr. I've had 3 babies at home, none with any type of medication. Yet, still I'm getting grief from people, that I'm not natural enough or I'm whining about nothing (not that it is said that way exactly but that is the implication). 

[VeganCupcake]

My MIL often says to me, "Your kids are so healthy!" as if I've earned a gold star in healthful mothering. So yes, I have encountered that attitude.

[fdrinca]

Hmm, well it is pretty strong in my own family of origin. "Cousin Sue took Jimmy to the Dr. again, there always going to the Dr. They sure are a sickly family" Nod, nod, wink, wink our family is much stronger/better than them, we don't have to go to the dr so much.  Also, a lot of "natural" folks I know seem to eschew medicine and doctors, I've heard more than one person say they would never go to a traditional doctor. In this community any "natural" treatment is great and wonderful, no matter whether there is any evidence but traditional medicine is a wretched thing that only ignorant sheeple use.

 

I live in Coastal California, and this attitude is oh-too-prevalent. My oldest son has pretty serious asthma and a few other medical conditions that require medicine. We've tried diet changes, environment changes, nutritional supplements, but the truth is his inhaled steroid is the only thing that's reliably kept him out of the hospital every month or so. I catch hints of subtle judgement even from our friends, but in the end my son is healthier than he's been in years. 

[fraidycat]

Have to account for addiction, too, though.

 

I daresay the moral choice was made the first time the person partook of the addictive substance, knowing full well that it's a stupid idea.

 

I say this is a newly (as in less than a month long) minted ex-smoker. I blame no one, no thing, no company other than myself. I was the idiot who tried that first "puff" 20 years ago. Me. Myself. And I.

[Laura Corin]

It happens here too. It was the attitude I was raised with. My dad lives with pain because he won't take medicine. It seems particularly prevalent in people from the depression/WWII. Maybe because no one could afford a doctor or people abused narcotic patent medicines? I fight feeling it myself. I know going to the doctor doesn't make me a weak whiner but that little voice in my head disagrees.

 

That's interesting.  My mother (same generation) doesn't like to take medicines at all.  The NHS has existed for most of her life, so it's not an issue of money.  It's more a feeling of 'grin and bear it', 'get on with it'.  When I talk about taking medicine when I have a cold, so that I can get a good night's sleep and feel better sooner, she doesn't disagree but I think it feels..... wrong to her.

 

L

[eternalsummer]

My parents were/are the opposite; they're always trying to get me to take meds for things that don't require medication (decongestants for a basic cold, tylenol for kids' fevers under 101, etc.) 

 

I think that (like most things), there is a continuum.  Some matters of health are reflections of morality to a degree; my dad smoked 2 packs a day, indoors, my entire childhood (my mom smoked about half as much).  I don't blame him 100% because he started smoking in 1940something at the age of 12.  But I do hold him largely responsible for both his health problems (he died of COPD a couple of years ago) and the effects the smoking had on me (largely social, some minor asthma).

 

People who are severely overweight are similar (with some exceptions for various causes); addiction is a hard thing to beat, and some people are more genetically predisposed to one addiction or the other, but at the end of the day we're responsible for our own behavior, and some behaviors are more selfish and harmful than others.

 

But seeing bad health as some sort of cosmic result of bad behavior without a clear cause-effect relationship like smoking or overeating is just crazy, imo.

[eternalsummer]

I daresay the moral choice was made the first time the person partook of the addictive substance, knowing full well that it's a stupid idea.

 

I say this is a newly (as in less than a month long) minted ex-smoker. I blame no one, no thing, no company other than myself. I was the idiot who tried that first "puff" 20 years ago. Me. Myself. And I.

 

 

Yay for quitting!  I smoked for a few years too; quitting was not easy, and I imagine it's much harder for someone after 20 years.  What did it for me was that I kept quitting every week or so; I must have quit 30 or 40 times, and every time caused major emotional meltdowns.  One day the cigarette just wasn't worth what I knew it would bring, and I never smoked again.  I read somewhere that the average ex-smoker quits smoking like 20+ times before it is finally permanent, which always made me feel hopeful even after I had relapsed again, and sure enough, it was true.

[WishboneDawn]

But you can choose to succumb to addiction, or get help/fight it. That is a moral choice that shows strength (or lack) of character.

My husband doesn't smoke anymore but when he did he possessed the same strength of character and same set of morals as after he quit. You may ultimately be right in that it points to some small character flaw but to my mind there's no point in making a moral issue of it.

 

It certainly small minded and self-congratulatory to assume that whether a person smokes our not tells you anything useful about their character or means they are somehow less then you by some measure as the OP relating.

[VaKim]

Might have already been mentioned, but I tend to think people have this attitude because it makes them feel like they are in control. If you can attribute bad health to something you yourself do or do not do, then you are the one in control. Many folks do not want to think about the fact that many things are completely out of their control. As mentioned above, I see a lot of people who are into the "natural movement" succumb to this attitude. ( I do go the natural route as often as possible myself, so not against it at all.) 

 

Some of them, when something happens to them that forces them to use traditional medicine, or to face the fact that they cannot control the situation themselves, will change their attitudes at that point. Many, especially those who have been taught this attitude (religion, etc.) will still firmly hold to the idea that it was their fault and something they did to cause it. 

[SKL]

"Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise."  - Ben Franklin

[SKL]

Considering that many of the top causes of death and ill health (statistically) involve lifestyle choices that are widely considered moral choices, I don't think the popular connection is so surprising.  Obvious examples: excessive use of alcohol, smoking, drug abuse, inactivity, gluttony, diseases commonly transmitted by sexual conduct or hypodermic needles, reckless driving, and diverting money away from good nutrition for ones' family.

[Jane in NC]

Waving hand here.

 

I grew up in the Midwest with parents who were very much of the school that equates illness with moral weakness.  My mother refused to accept that she was dying of colon cancer because sickness was something that happened to other people.  My father always claimed that he had never been ill "a day in his life"--totally false but it made him feel better I guess.

 

In my Mom's case, her moral superiority was tied to a fear of doctors. I don't know if she had a bad experience as a kid or while giving birth or what.  When she was hospitalized about eight months before she died and was being given blood transfusions, she was pulling the IVs out of her arm.

 

We are a healthy lot in our family but I credit good genes--not our moral superiority! 

 

By the way, despite my parental upbringing, I do not have a fear of doctors or modern medicine.  Just yesterday I went in for my annual skin check with a dermatologist. I am fair and subject to little precancerous keratosis growths.  My attitude is that I would rather have the PA remove a small scaly thing that have to deal with skin cancer down the road.  My parents did not see the need for annual check ups, for example.  They always felt they knew more than doctors which was quite naive on their part.

[Amy in NH]

My husband doesn't smoke anymore but when he did he possessed the same strength of character and same set of morals as after he quit. You may ultimately be right in that it points to some small character flaw but to my mind there's no point in making a moral issue of it.

 

It certainly small minded and self-congratulatory to assume that whether a person smokes our not tells you anything useful about their character or means they are somehow less then you by some measure as the OP relating.

 

Thank you for the personal attack - calling me small-minded and self-congratulatory.  I would like to point out that I answered the OPs question using smoking as an example, but didn't attack anyone here on a personal level. 

 

I smoked for 9 years and quit, so I know that it is difficult to quit.  Just saying there is a moral aspect to the choice.

 

Perhaps the truth hurts?

[Free]

My husband doesn't smoke anymore but when he did he possessed the same strength of character and same set of morals as after he quit. You may ultimately be right in that it points to some small character flaw but to my mind there's no point in making a moral issue of it.

 

It certainly small minded and self-congratulatory to assume that whether a person smokes our not tells you anything useful about their character or means they are somehow less then you by some measure as the OP relating.

 

Love this. Is there anybody who does not struggle with some little flaw or addictions?

 

Maybe self blame works for some as a means of motivation, but for many many others the lack of compassion for oneself is exactly what keeps them addicted and unable to change.

 

 

[creekland]

I don't think I've encountered anyone in real life who seems to believe there's a connection between health and morality.  But I've seen it strongly hinted at on message boards (including this one).  Many times.

 

We have a fair number of kids at the public school where I work with chronic conditions and I can't think of a single time I've encountered anyone who has blamed it on moral issues.  Genetics, yes.  Condition consequences (like smoking or alcohol during pregnancy) yes.  Moral deals?  No.  I do know some religions/denominations claim it, but I guess I've yet to meet anyone IRL with that view.  Perhaps they don't use public schools.

 

Most I know who choose not to go to doctors choose it for stress reasons - not due to moral issues.

 

Some do prefer natural healers.  That's a "lifestyle choice" more than a moral one - in the same way these folks tend to eat organic, etc.

 

I guess I do see some who consider smoking a moral choice and equate that (properly) with health.  I find it amusing that those same folks might be eating a Twinkie (regularly) and think nothing of it with health or moral regards.

 

For me in general, I've definitely learned that "healthy living/eating" is not equivalent to ensuring great health.  With my latest issue, I felt considerably WORSE when I switched to what is supposed to be a very healthy diet.  I've switched back to including some supposedly unhealthy options and feel considerably better.  I'm not likely to change again without some sort of super good reason.

[WishboneDawn]

Thank you for the personal attack - calling me small-minded and self-congratulatory.  I would like to point out that I answered the OPs question using smoking as an example, but didn't attack anyone here on a personal level. 

 

I smoked for 9 years and quit, so I know that it is difficult to quit.  Just saying there is a moral aspect to the choice.

 

Perhaps the truth hurts?

I apologize. I did not intend it that way. It was awkwardly worded and then further mangling by my Swype keyboard made it seem worse. I should have learned by now that posting from my phone is a bad idea.

 

My first paragraph was in response to you, The "small-minded and self-congratulatory" comments were meant for those the OP mentioned in her first paragraph. I don't think saying there's a moral element to the choice to quit is small-minded, I think the judgement experienced by the OP are. There may be a moral element to the choice to smoke/quit smoking for some (I'm not sure I'd allow that that is always the case) but to judge people because they smoke or because they're fat or have cancer or asthma...That's when someone goes into the territory of small-mindedness. I don't think that's what you're doing.

[Lady Florida.]

I've never known anyone who equates health with morality. 

 

 

 Also, a lot of "natural" folks I know seem to eschew medicine and doctors, I've heard more than one person say they would never go to a traditional doctor. In this community any "natural" treatment is great and wonderful, no matter whether there is any evidence but traditional medicine is a wretched thing that only ignorant sheeple use.

 

Now this I encounter often IRL. I embrace science based medicine while many people in my circle do not. Funny though. They or their kids are sick more often and for longer periods that my family and me. I'm not saying there's a correlation, just that I find it ironic.

[Amy in NH]

I apologize. I did not intend it that way. It was awkwardly worded and then further mangling by my Swype keyboard made it seem worse. I should have learned by now that posting from my phone is a bad idea.

 

My first paragraph was in response to you, The "small-minded and self-congratulatory" comments were meant for those the OP mentioned in her first paragraph. I don't think saying there's a moral element to the choice to quit is small-minded, I think the judgement experienced by the OP are. There may be a moral element to the choice to smoke/quit smoking for some (I'm not sure I'd allow that that is always the case) but to judge people because they smoke or because they're fat or have cancer or asthma...That's when someone goes into the territory of small-mindedness. I don't think that's what you're doing.

 

Thank you.  Apology accepted.  And I agree with your point here.

[HRAAB]

I don't live in the Midwest, but this reminds me of my mil.  If someone is sick, it's because they didn't do something right.  When a cousin was diagnosed with bone cancer, it was because he ate too many candy bars.  If someone doesn't recovery quickly enough, it's because they're not eating enough (whatever).  People who go to the doctor are weak and can't think for themselves.  Basically, if we all lived like my mil, there would be no illness nor disease.  Always said with a superior moral tone.

 

She's the only one I've ever met like that.

[OhanaBee]

Might have already been mentioned, but I tend to think people have this attitude because it makes them feel like they are in control. If you can attribute bad health to something you yourself do or do not do, then you are the one in control. Many folks do not want to think about the fact that many things are completely out of their control. As mentioned above, I see a lot of people who are into the "natural movement" succumb to this attitude. ( I do go the natural route as often as possible myself, so not against it at all.) 

 

Some of them, when something happens to them that forces them to use traditional medicine, or to face the fact that they cannot control the situation themselves, will change their attitudes at that point. Many, especially those who have been taught this attitude (religion, etc.) will still firmly hold to the idea that it was their fault and something they did to cause it. 

 

I totally agree with this.  This is how I was raised.  My mom was convinced that if you lived the RIGHT way, you wouldn't get sick.  And if you did get sick, it was either your fault OR your fault and the fault of the person who dared to bring germs around [but still mostly your fault for not being healthy enough to fight off the germs]

 

Mom grew up with two very ill parents.  My grandmother had a brain tumor, and my grandfather had a stroke at an early age.  Mom had thyroid cancer when she was 19 and blames her parent's smoking habits.  They lived in a small Southern town - everyone smoked back then!  But it's easier for Mom to get angry over her family's bad habits [they also ate a lot of fried food which Mom claims she didn't like, even as a child], than to accept that life happens and sometimes good things happen to good people....even when you think you've done everything "right".

 

Growing up I heard all about health and eating healthy, and making all the right choices so you don't get sick.  When my brother and I dared to come down with something we both felt guilty and ashamed and tried to get over it as fast as possible.  When *MOM* got sick, it was always due to the fault of someone else. 

 

To this day, I have to fight off blaming someone for my illness [oh, I got a cold - must have been my evil co-worker who dared to come to work with a cough last week!]  I have come to see that, for my Mom, it's all about control.  She couldn't control her childhood, but by gum she is going to control illnesses in her family today!

 

The problem we now have is that my Dad was diagnosed with Parkinsons a few years ago.  He's doing really great, but this is not a "illness" that gets better eventually.  He's slowing down.  It's taking it's toll.  And Mom is feeling out of control, which manifests itself with her losing her temper much faster.  I wish she would just accept the fact that we CAN'T control illness and disease through healthy living and moral choices alone.

 

 

ETA: My mom is also very judgy about people's weight.  *That's* a big factor in health for her.  So if you have health problems and are a little bit overweight, it's *your* fault and don't come looking for sympathy.  There is a woman at her church who is struggling with infertility and Mom is convinced [and will TELL PEOPLE] that it's all because of this poor woman's weight.  How I grew up in that household without developing an eating disorder is beyond me.....

[creekland]

My grandparents (both sides, but mainly grandmothers) always had reasons why people got what they did whether it was a cold from "going outside without a jacket" or b cancer from sitting in a chair next to a window and always getting the drafts from it.

 

Neither really considered the issues "moral" ones though.  It was more just "facts" of the day in a similar way that lung cancer is blamed on smoking now.  Of course, the latter has a bit more scientific info behind it than what my grandparents thought, but still, they were merely trying to do their best at the time much in the same way many people do now.

 

To me, I equate "moral" with "good/bad" actions of people.  Killing is not good.  Helping another is.  Neither grandparent would consider going outside without a coat a moral deal - just an unwise one if one wants to stay healthy.

[elegantlion]

I live in the mid-west, I've seen the attitude and there is something akin to it, not morality or superiority, but a pride perhaps? My great grandmother had attended medical school in Germany, then they moved to the midwest. She was the family doctor most of the time. There was no money or time to visit the licensed doctor in town. They lived way out in the country, so she dealt with a lot of things. 

 

My mom still seldom takes medicine, she's 77. She believes in the power of the body to heal itself for minor things like colds (not major stuff). My dad has numerous health issues and take a copious amount of prescription meds, but almost refuses to take an aspirin when necessary. 

 

I think there was an attitude of false humility too in his side of the family. Pain is something you put up with and don't complain about.