............

[*lifeoftheparty*]

.

[TechWife]

I know you weren't replying to me, but you were replying to a post that was directed at me. I'd love your input.

 

I'm sending a pm to you since albeto hasn't asked for a response from me. 

[*lifeoftheparty*]

.

[albeto.]

 

 

I'm sending a pm to you since albeto hasn't asked for a response from me. 

 

Sure I did!

 

Absolutely I'm interested.

 

:)

[Cammie]

Was so interested in the discussion about why Christmas is in December and the rather strong statements that it has absolutely nothing to do with the pagan holidays celebrated at that time (contrary to what I thought was true.)

 

Here is what I found - http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/news/2000/dec08.html

 

Note - this is from the magazine Christianity Today!  The articles states:

 

The eventual choice of December 25, made perhaps as early as 273, reflects a convergence of Origen's concern about pagan gods and the church's identification of God's son with the celestial sun. December 25 already hosted two other related festivals: natalis solis invicti (the Roman "birth of the unconquered sun"), and the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian "Sun of Righteousness" whose worship was popular with Roman soldiers. The winter solstice, another celebration of the sun, fell just a few days earlier. Seeing that pagans were already exalting deities with some parallels to the true deity, church leaders decided to commandeer the date and introduce a new festival.Western Christians first celebrated Christmas on December 25 in 336, after Emperor Constantine had declared Christianity the empire's favored religion. Eastern churches, however, held on to January 6 as the date for Christ's birth and his baptism. Most easterners eventually adopted December 25, celebrating Christ's birth on the earlier date and his baptism on the latter, but the Armenian church celebrates his birth on January 6. Incidentally, the Western church does celebrate Epiphany on January 6, but as the arrival date of the Magi rather than as the date of Christ's baptism.

 

 

Now, this may not jive with church history from people from a variety of backgrounds.  And I fully understand that there are people who accept the history of their church as actual and without fault.  However, here is a Christian magazine accepting that the date was chosen to co-opt pagan holidays.  For me that seems like pretty good evidence that it happened that way.

 

Interesting discussion.

[Cammie]

For those interested - another fascinating article on the date of Christmas.  This one from Biblical Archaeology -

 

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/

 

This article addresses the theory that it was based on the use of already existing pagan holidays.  However, it also puts forth another theory that has to do with the idea that Christ was born and crucified on the same date:

 

It may be no coincidence, then, that the early church celebrated Jesus’ conception and death on the same calendar day: March 25, exactly nine months before December 25. Kunsthalle, Hamburg/Bridgeman Art Library, NY

Around 200 C.E.

Tertullian of Carthage reported the calculation that the 14th of Nisan (the day of the crucifixion according to the Gospel of John) in the year Jesus diedc was equivalent to March 25 in the Roman (solar) calendar.9 March 25 is, of course, nine months before December 25; it was later recognized as the Feast of the Annunciation—the commemoration of Jesus’ conception.10 Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.d

This idea appears in an anonymous Christian treatise titled On Solstices and Equinoxes, which appears to come from fourth-century North Africa. The treatise states: “Therefore our Lord was conceived on the eighth of the kalends of April in the month of March [March 25], which is the day of the passion of the Lord and of his conception. For on that day he was conceived on the same he suffered.â€11 Based on this, the treatise dates Jesus’ birth to the winter solstice.

Augustine, too, was familiar with this association. In On the Trinity (c. 399–419) he writes: “For he [Jesus] is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day also he suffered; so the womb of the Virgin, in which he was conceived, where no one of mortals was begotten, corresponds to the new grave in which he was buried, wherein was never man laid, neither before him nor since. But he was born, according to tradition, upon December the 25th.â€12

 

 

Fascinating...never thought too much about it.  We celebrate it as a big American Christmas and in Bangalore it is celebrated by many as a time for gifts, family, etc.  For Indian Christians it is very important as there is a never ending parade of holidays for other religions here but only this one that is really recognized by everyone as a Christian holiday.

 

[unsinkable]

Judging by their statement of faith, Christianity Today is a Protestant publication that does not speak for me as a RC.

[Cammie]

I think that is my point.  The RC or the Orthodox history is fine and great for the people who choose to follow those teachings.  However, just because one church states unequivocally that there is no basis for stating that Christmas was set on a certain date to take advantage of the holidays that were already being celebrated doesn't mean that there are not other churches (even fairly mainstream ones) that state differently.

 

No one has to believe any of the articles I posted.  I just find it fascinating that when something is stated as actual gospel truth...there still may be other opinions that are also thought to be actual gospel truth.

[Scrub Jay]

I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are regarding a different billboard, also put up by an atheist organization in several cities. (For those who don't want to follow the link, it is basically a picture of the earth with "Don't believe in God? Join the club!")

 

Personally, I feel this type is much less in-your-face, but it still garnered much the same reaction as many here had to the billboard with the nativity scene. 

 

 

 

I see no issue with this one at all.  You could replace the wording to "Like to bike?", "Like chocolate?" or "Disney-fanatic?" and it would have the same purpose. 

 

[Scrub Jay]

I skimmed the posts and didn't see this.   Has the story of the Salvation Army bell ringer who was punched by a lady because the bell ringer said Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas been discussed?   

 

Wow. :(

 

[unsinkable]

I think that is my point. The RC or the Orthodox history is fine and great for the people who choose to follow those teachings. However, just because one church states unequivocally that there is no basis for stating that Christmas was set on a certain date to take advantage of the holidays that were already being celebrated doesn't mean that there are not other churches (even fairly mainstream ones) that state differently.

 

No one has to believe any of the articles I posted. I just find it fascinating that when something is stated as actual gospel truth...there still may be other opinions that are also thought to be actual gospel truth.

I only speak for myself and my faith. I don't remember trying to state anything as actual gospel truth for anyone else.

[Cammie]

I only speak for myself and my faith. I don't remember trying to state anything as actual gospel truth for anyone else.

 

Nope not you.  There are others, however, whose statements on what "is" or "is not" Christian history are made very strongly and are clearly stated as the only possible narrative of Christian history.

 

My point was that there are a variety of narratives of Christian history.  Even those of us who are not members of the "founding church" have scholars and historians who are just as qualified to comment on Christian history as any other group.

 

We all chose to believe what we chose to believe and that is the beauty of living in a free country.  There doesn't have to be one "correct" narrative and one "incorrect" narrative.  I can believe that the early church was pragmatic in how the date was picked.  Others can believe that the Church was divinely inspired to use that date.  It is ok that we don't agree on this point - again the beauty of being free thinkers!

[redsquirrel]

I think a lot of this fear of a non-existent 'war on christmas' comes from a fear of diversity. Like so many I say "happy holidays" to mean "Happy everything that is going on this time of year from November to January". I live in an area with lots of diversity and I feel odd wishing happy christmas to someone who very well might be jewish or muslim or whatever. Not that any of my jewish friends or family would take offense, but I don't like to go to a default christmas greeting when it just isn't relevant to so many people I know and love. My church is UU so that is very much a part of how I operate in the world.

 

But, to someone like my step-dad, who simultaneously believes there is a 'war on christmas' while holding ZERO religious beliefs himself, it clearly stems from a fear of diversity. He is older, in his 70s, and he believes that he was raised in some mystical time when people lived 'right' and there were no gays or feminists or black presidents (I am serious here) and everyone was happy and self supporting and responsible, and no one had sex until they were married. People knew their place. Now, he will tell you that he isn't racist or homophobic and he takes everyone as he finds them, he is a nice man, but he does hold that there is a 'right' way to be and that way is white and nominally christian and a football fan and straight and a super patriot, and conservative. Anything else is a threat to those values.

 

The idea of people saying happy holidays isn't 'right' it makes him have to deal with the fact that people aren't all the same and not everyone is like him. He grew up with everyone saying merry christmas and if you didn't celebrate christmas, well, don't make a big fuss about it and just go along to get along. If you don't celebrate christmas then know your place and shut up about it.

 

I find myself wondering just how much of this fear of a war on christmas is just wanting to keep people in their place, don't make us deal with diversity or something that is different from what we grew up with. It certainly is a dog whistle for him.

 

 

[shanvan]

I always buy the ringers hot chocolate.

 

But I haven't heard that story. But a Christmas ago or so, a customer punched the Walmart worker who asked to see her receipt so hard she knocked her over.

 

Okay, this I kind of get.  Our local Walmart receipt checker seemed to target me for years.   I know I looked like one of the most respectable shoppers in the store (wasn't wearing PJs AND combed my hair).  All the creepy people walked right by.  Not me.  She had to stop me and my toddler, and my baby who was in the cart.  Then I'd have to search through all my bags to find the receipt (b/c I was so thankful to get through the store without any major kid meltdowns that I'd forgotten to hold onto my receipt).  I just might be able to go along with a war on receipt checkers.  <Resisting the urge to post cheering smilies>

 

*This might belong on the unpopular opinions thread.

[milovany]

Nope not you.  There are others, however, whose statements on what "is" or "is not" Christian history are made very strongly and are clearly stated as the only possible narrative of Christian history...

 

Please forgive me as I appear to have come off too strong.  I do think there's something to hearing from the church that was there at the beginning and throughout the entire 2000 years of church history, compared to having a church tradition that's been around for about 500 years - or less -- say it was a certain way based on their own more recent understanding (I admit it), but that said, you're welcome to believe whatever you want!  I honor and respect that and apologize if I made it seem like "my way or the highway." 

 

I popped on one of my favorite Orthodox blogs today, and wouldn't you know the husband of the blogger, a priest, posted about this very topic, similar to some of what was posted above.  His words: 

 

Q.  Why is the Nativity of Christ celebrated on December 25^th?

A.  There are two main explanations as to why the Church chose to celebrate the Nativity of Christ on December 25^th. 

The first says that the day was chosen to oppose the great pagan feast of the sun god, which was celebrated near December 22^nd at the Winter Solstice, the time of year when the days started to get longer again (at least in the northern hemisphere).  It is believed that the Church chose December 25^th, because it ensured that Christians would be fasting during the pagan celebration and would therefore not easily be tempted to participate.  And also because it would help the pagans to leave off worshiping the false sun god and instead celebrate the coming of the True God, “the Sun of Righteousnessâ€.

 

The second explanation says that the day was chosen in relation to the feast of the Annunciation, which was celebrated on March 25^th commemorating the supernatural conception of the Lord in the womb of the Virgin Mary.  The Annunciation was celebrated on this day because of the belief in the ancient world that great men died on the same day as they were conceived.  Since the Lord was believed to have been crucified on March 25^th, it also came to be believed that He was likewise conceived on this day.  And since it followed that the Lord’s birth would be nine months after His conception, the feast of His Nativity was set on December 25^th.

 

I was already feeling a bit bothered by the way I stated so emphatically what's what when really, there are a lot of unknowns. I'm fine with unknowns, and I'm fine with the pagans using trees, and the Christians also using trees. The Creator made them either way and His creation is blessed. We picked up our tree tonight and I don't believe we've incurred God's wrath or jealousy in doing so (God knows there's much more within my heart that He wants to address than whether or not we have a tree with some homemade snowflakes and cranberry strands on it, Lord have mercy).  I'm also fine with however the Church chose the date. I just don't like seeing "Christmas is a pagan-based celebration and as Christians it's funny that we'd celebrate it." I responded to that initially and should have kindly commented, and left it at that. 

 

***********

 

A beautiful peace offering for those who don't mind a "Merry Christmas" wish, Andjeli Pevaju ("Angels Sing" in Serbian; English lyrics here).

[Cammie]

Milovany,  you consistently impress me as a woman of great faith, thought and reason.  I appreciate your contributions to the Board immensely.  Thank you and Merry Christmas!

[SproutMamaK]

So many of you guys have already pretty much states what I think, but I'm going to chime in anyway, because I wanna.

 

War on Christmas? Nope. However, I DO think there are increasing hostilities regarding religion in general. Not just towards religion (and the religious), but from it. 9/11 ushered in a new, current realization about what people are capable of doing in the name of religion. Historically we could've learned the same lessons, but obviously people have a more visceral reaction to seeing something happen right in front of them as opposed to, say, reading about the Crusades. That set the Western world as whole up for some serious considerations about the role of faith in society.  From that point there have been SO many powder keg issues that have made religion in general feel like a battleground, whether it be religion vs religion, religion vs atheism, etc. Gay rights would be by far the biggest of the 'powder keg' issues, imho.

 

I think this is a crucial time for both civil and religious rights and how they interact with each other. It annoys me that the media and political figures are trivializing the issue down to "Some people don't like the words you use to greet them during December."

[milovany]

:iagree:

Eek, make sure to not miss the sentence above where it says there's a lot in my heart the Lord is addressing. So much messed up stuff in there (sometimes I wonder why my priest puts up with me and my very repetitive confessions), but I press on.  We have a traditional song in Orthodoxy that we sing to those commemorating a birthday or name day or anniversary, etc.  It says over and over a few times, "God grant you many years." I often end up thinking -- "Please, Lord! I need a lot of years to get rid of this dross."  Thank you for your kind words. I've learned a lot on these boards. 

[Catwoman]

As far as I'm concerned, the date on which Christmas falls is December 25th.

 

That's what it says on my calendar, and that's the day Santa leaves the presents under the tree and fills up the stockings, and that's good enough for me. ;)

 

OK, so maybe it's not historically correct, but I'm fine with that.

[SKL]

I will admit that when I was young and stingy, I used to think parents of young kids should pretend Christmas was really December 30 or something.  So they could run out and buy everything for cheap and the kids would be none the wiser.

 

Christmas is December 25 because that's the official national holiday.

 

I have always understood it to be a broad approximation.  But they had to pick *some* day.  I love that it falls just after the darkest day of the year.  All the Christmas lights may have warded off many bouts of depression.  By the time people pack in their lights, you can start to feel the days getting longer.

[mom@shiloh]

The only war I ever see is from people who think it shouldn't be celebrated because it was originally a pagan holiday and has pagan traditions mixed in.

 

A tree may be worshiped by a pagan,but that doesn't mean I worship it. It is a fun family tradition that reminds me of all the blessings in my life. I don't bow to it or pray to it.

 A little girl came to our house one time and loudly proclaimed that we were worshiping Satan because we had a Christmas tree.  

[Pawz4me]

I *believe* for at least some Christians the issue with Christmas trees comes from Jeremiah 10:

 

"Hear what the Lord says to you, people of Israel. ² This is what the Lord says:

“Do not learn the ways of the nations
    or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
    though the nations are terrified by them.
³ For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
    they cut a tree out of the forest,
    and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
⁴ They adorn it with silver and gold;
    they fasten it with hammer and nails
    so it will not totter.
⁵ Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
    their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
    because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
    they can do no harm
    nor can they do any good.â€

 

Of course like almost all Bible passages, I'm sure there can be debate and different interpretations about what that one means.  But there it is.

[LaxMom]

I think a lot of this fear of a non-existent 'war on christmas' comes from a fear of diversity. Like so many I say "happy holidays" to mean "Happy everything that is going on this time of year from November to January". I live in an area with lots of diversity and I feel odd wishing happy christmas to someone who very well might be jewish or muslim or whatever. Not that any of my jewish friends or family would take offense, but I don't like to go to a default christmas greeting when it just isn't relevant to so many people I know and love. My church is UU so that is very much a part of how I operate in the world.

 

But, to someone like my step-dad, who simultaneously believes there is a 'war on christmas' while holding ZERO religious beliefs himself, it clearly stems from a fear of diversity. He is older, in his 70s, and he believes that he was raised in some mystical time when people lived 'right' and there were no gays or feminists or black presidents (I am serious here) and everyone was happy and self supporting and responsible, and no one had sex until they were married. People knew their place. Now, he will tell you that he isn't racist or homophobic and he takes everyone as he finds them, he is a nice man, but he does hold that there is a 'right' way to be and that way is white and nominally christian and a football fan and straight and a super patriot, and conservative. Anything else is a threat to those values.

 

The idea of people saying happy holidays isn't 'right' it makes him have to deal with the fact that people aren't all the same and not everyone is like him. He grew up with everyone saying merry christmas and if you didn't celebrate christmas, well, don't make a big fuss about it and just go along to get along. If you don't celebrate christmas then know your place and shut up about it.

 

I find myself wondering just how much of this fear of a war on christmas is just wanting to keep people in their place, don't make us deal with diversity or something that is different from what we grew up with. It certainly is a dog whistle for him.

So, this is an interesting thing. The Irving Berlin song "Happy Holidays" was composed in 1941. Obviously, then, "happy holidays" would be something that has been in use his entire life...

 

It's interesting to me that 70-odd years later, it becomes a symbol of "what is wrong with society", especially when those "glory days" he longs for (I assume the 1940s-50s of his childhood fell in after it.

[TravelingChris]

What we have had here is some atheist group  (and I don't know how large they are and maybe it is one individual, for all I know) have sent letters to various schools threatening lawsuits if any religious songs are played or sung.  This group is from  a far away state, and they have sent them to various school districts.  One school official decided to ban the singing of religious music in any school. There was an uproar, but we went out of state for my FIL's funeral and by the time we got back, we weren't hearing anything about it.  I don't know if it was overturned or not.  I know choir directors at some of the schools were very upset.  I can see why.  Much of classical music are pieces of religious composition.  After all, I don't know that all singers who sing Ave Maria are Catholics and I would suspect that probably some are not Christians or some may be atheists.  I just know that I like hearing a lot of the religious songs based first of all on the music.  Then my appreciation for lyrics may come in.  But I can also appreciate music from another religious tradition or totally secular music too.

[marbel]

Never mind.  Saw that this had been addressed way back there, and I'd missed it.

[Firefly]

Just want to clarify that, as a pagan, I am not "worshiping" the tree.  We bring evergreens and holly into the house this time of year as a reminder of those things that stay green and alive through the darkest, coldest days of winter.  It's a celebration of the fact that the winter solstice means warmer, sunny days ahead.  FTR we don't "worship" anything-- we're just celebrating the change of seasons and cyclical nature of life.  (Obviously I don't speak for all pagans.)

 

/end hijack :)

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Just want to clarify that, as a pagan, I am not "worshiping" the tree. We bring evergreens and holly into the house this time of year as a reminder of those things that stay green and alive through the darkest, coldest days of winter. It's a celebration of the fact that the winter solstice means warmer, sunny days ahead. FTR we don't "worship" anything-- we're just celebrating the change of seasons and cyclical nature of life. (Obviously I don't speak for all pagans.)

 

/end hijack :)

That, IMHO, is very cool.

[PrincessMommy]

So, I keep hearing about this "war on Christmas" and the secularizing of Christmas, blah blah blah pretty often, and I just don't get it.

 

We are Christian, Libertarians, kinda middle of the road- a few steps toward the right, but still definitely in the middle.

 

I just don't get what everyone is whining about.

 

We live in Maryland- pretty liberal state. We live close to DC and go there very often. So far, we went to a Christmas parade in Alexandria where they played Christmas carols and shouted "Merry Christmas" -even had signs and stuff. And Santa pulled up the rear in a convertable.

 

We went to an Army band Christmas concert where many Christmas songs, several of them were extremely religious, were sang/played.

 

There are Messiah concerts at The National Cathedral, The Naval Academy, and many others.

 

We saw the Nativity Scene at the National Christmas Tree.

 

We went to the ice! exhibit at the National Harbor and there was a whole room that contained a GORGEOUS Nativity scene made out of ice- and the (biblical) Christmas story was being piped in over head. We also saw a light show in the lobby that played Handels Messiah.

 

Every time we go to a store, or out to eat, we are told Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidiays with a smile. And since Christmas IS one of the holidays being celebrated I respond with a "thank you", or "you too" or "Merry Christmas" and go on about my day.

 

Back to the Beginning with Christiane Amanpour was on CNN last night and it very respectfully talked about the Bible and Jesus, etc.

 

We see Nativity scenes in people's yards, etc. and since we go to church, we do advent stuff every week.

 

I just. do. not. understand. what all these people who are crying "War" are talking about.... I mean, is it different in other places? Are people really waging a hostile war on Christmas? I just don't get it! (And didn't want to vent on Facebook, where I "hear" most of this whining...)

 

 

I live where you live and I agree (although we don't do nearly that much stuff!  Wow you are busy!).     In fact, my local public radio music station is playing all Christmas music... I *love* it! 

 

The only place I saw an issue was on a weaving email group when someone recently closed her post with a "Merry Christmas".  Someone was deeply offended and shot back a "This isn't a *Christian* weaving group and how dare you tell me Merry Christmas!"   :huh:   But that was one person getting their knickers in a twist, rather than a large corp, the media, or govt. 

 

The only other thing I've seen occasionally is probably more properly called a war on Christianity.   Last year on Western Palm Sunday NPR did a segment debunking Jesus' entry into Jerusalem...and then all the usual stuff about how none of it could have happened (Easter, etc.).  Sigh.  Seriously?  On Palm Sunday??  I find that quite tiresome..especially because I doubt they'd do a segment debunking stuff about the Prophet Muhammad during Ramadan.  Or disproving the Maccabee Wars during Chanukah. 

 

But, I don't' watch tv news and I don't listen to conservative talk radio (or Christian radio)...so I don't think I'd hear about anything national.

 

[MFG]

  The Wise Men didn't show up on the birthday; it was long afterward--roughly a year, from what I have been taught. 

 

I have heard that it may have been up to two years later. This is based on the passage in Mt. 2:16 where Herod gives the order to kill all the male children two years old and under.

 

  

One other reason that the (Orthodox) Church gives for putting Christmas at December 25 is that it is near the darkest day of the year.  (Tell me about it in Seattle...argh).  The Light comes into the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it.

 

Just a side thought, but this seems to highlight that Church tradition and the liturgical year developed in the Northern hemisphere. What are the the effects/implications of this as the Church has become a worldwide entity?

[TracyP]

I *believe* for at least some Christians the issue with Christmas trees comes from Jeremiah 10:

 

"Hear what the Lord says to you, people of Israel. ² This is what the Lord says:

“Do not learn the ways of the nations

    or be terrified by signs in the heavens,

    though the nations are terrified by them.

³ For the practices of the peoples are worthless;

    they cut a tree out of the forest,

    and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

⁴ They adorn it with silver and gold;

    they fasten it with hammer and nails

    so it will not totter.

⁵ Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,

    their idols cannot speak;

they must be carried

    because they cannot walk.

Do not fear them;

    they can do no harm

    nor can they do any good.â€

 

Of course like almost all Bible passages, I'm sure there can be debate and different interpretations about what that one means.  But there it is.

 

Yes, you are right. My mom is a Christian who does not celebrate Christmas or any other (her term) "pagan" holiday. She points to these verses as one of the many reasons.

[TeacherZee]

I wished my public school students a Merry Christmas today. And last week we listened to songs that all mentioned God during the St Lucia performance*. No one here gets their knickers in a twist and I live in a very secular country.

 

 

*St Lucia is very much a cultural not a religious thing here but those students who, for various reasons, wish to pass on going to the performance are allowed to do so.

[KarenNC]

FWIW, where I live, nobody cares if you go to church on Christmas or on any other day. I find it quite odd that anyone would be keeping score.

 

Ironically, never in all the years there has been the big to do over the "War on Christmas" have I *ever* heard anyone complain, either in person or in the media, that they were prevented from going to *any* religious service to celebrate Christmas, either on the date or any date leading up to it. Actually, for many of the folks locally who are most vocal about it, they don't actually go to a religious service because their churches don't have one on Christmas unless it's on Sunday. We don't have a large population of folks who attend liturgical churches who would have midnight Mass, for instance.  Some will have a Christmas Eve service, perhaps, or even celebrate the Sunday before so as not to interfere with family activities on Christmas Day.

 

I'll admit to not personally experiencing a "war on Christianity" when the local governments open all meetings with a prayer asking directly for Jesus' guidance for everyone in attendance in making decisions, the local paper publishes regular columns from various pastors on how to be a "good Christian" each week, several pages are devoted each week to sermon titles, church food sales, church happenings, church meeting times, etc. Local schools pack Operation Christmas Child boxes as part of school activities, I'm hard-pressed to find any homeschool activities or groups that are not Christian-specific, the Gideons are handing out New Testaments at the county fair (I don't think they do that in schools anymore like they did when I was growing up), the newspaper gives out Bibles a few times a year, there are "fish" symbols on countless business ads, etc. This is not to mention the approximately 500 churches in the county (though many folks attend a church in a neighboring county) and either 2 or 3 Christian bookstores (that I know of, including in the mall) plus every retail store carries Christian-themed items year-round. I have been greeted with "Merry Christmas" by store clerks regularly and with "Happy Holidays" by one of the ubiquitous Salvation Army bellringers.

 

ETA: our town mayor was elected twice while using a cross to stand for the first letter of his first name on all his campaign signs, in the town brochure cites his prayer breakfasts at which he conducts town business as one of his major accomplishments, and a year or so ago sent out fundraising requests for a specific proselytizing Christian mission service in the town water bills.

[PrincessMommy]

I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are regarding a different billboard, also put up by an atheist organization in several cities. (For those who don't want to follow the link, it is basically a picture of the earth with "Don't believe in God? Join the club!")

 

Personally, I feel this type is much less in-your-face, but it still garnered much the same reaction as many here had to the billboard with the nativity scene. 

 

 

 

I'm a Christian and I don't have a problem with it.  You're right, it isn't in your face and I appreciate that.  

[Scarlett]

When I was growing up the problem was making sure we were allowed to avoid celebrations and activities that conflicted with our conscience without penalty. We did it quietly though with the goal of maintaining a good conscience and not one of affecting societal change.

 

Because we declined quietly few people realize how many things we were avoiding/declining, not participating in etc.

[WishboneDawn]

Something like this?

 

 

You've been dying for a reason (ha!) to post that, haven't you? :D

[WishboneDawn]

To me this advertisement is an invitation to allow someone to finally accept what they know but keep pushing to the back of their brain because, well, "everyone knows this," or fear of eternal retribution. The whole point of atheists coming out of the closet, so to speak, is to give others who really don't believe the liberty of not pretending to believe. Not to themselves, not in their community. It's an invitation to freedom of thought in a way religion doesn't necessarily allow ("take captive your thoughts," "trust not on thy own understanding," "love the lord thy god with all they heart, mind, soul," etc). The point of this billboard is to address the fact that because the story of Jesus' birth has so many logical holes in it, someone who isn't quite sure they really do accept it on faith doesn't have to feel alone, or odd, or delusional for not accepting what those around them accept. But that's not "mockery," by any standard definition of the word. But maybe I'm misunderstanding. How do you define mockery?

I can see your point. I can see why some would take it add mocking as well. I think it can be both at the same time.

 

Mocking is not a problem IMO though, especially when it concerns a dominent cultural force.

[WishboneDawn]

Respectfully I think one can be an atheist while not putting MYTH over religious images.

 

I think if one was truly wanting mutual respect and discourse they would not use religious images at all. *shrug*

 

To me the question is whether the atheist believes in the absence of religion or if they are anti-religion. (and those come across very differently)

A few years ago my minister's Christmas Eve homily was on The power of myth as it concerned Jesus. His point was on the misuse of the term to mean lure our untruth when there's a bigger meaning a la Joseph Campbell that we should perhaps embrace.

 

I have no problem with the use of the term myth when it comes to Christianity. Others are under no obligation to believe in the historicity of Jesus or the birth narrative. Christians might do well to examine the fact that the birth narrative that only appears in two gospels and then in two radically different forms.

[WishboneDawn]

Hmmm, mockery involves ridicule. I do see that ad (and the others like it, especially the one KarenNC posted) as one filled with ridicule. If that's not the intent, the ad campaign needs to be tweaked because that's how it's coming across.

American Atheists produces some pretty tone deaf stuff. It creates a splash and boosts membership for a short time. There are a lot of atheists who aren't too happy with their methods, let alone Christians and other religious folk. They and their ads do not represent the best or most interesting things about atheism or atheists in general.

[redsquirrel]

So, this is an interesting thing. The Irving Berlin song "Happy Holidays" was composed in 1941. Obviously, then, "happy holidays" would be something that has been in use his entire life...

 

It's interesting to me that 70-odd years later, it becomes a symbol of "what is wrong with society", especially when those "glory days" he longs for (I assume the 1940s-50s of his childhood fell in after it.

 

It isn't that he never heard the phrase 'happy holidays' and I venture to guess that if this weren't being made an issue in his media diet of choice this wouldn't bother him in the least. He knows perfectly well that 'happy holidays' is meant to convey good wishes for the entire holiday season.

 

But, he has been told that the the phrase 'happy holidays' is being used against him as a way to marginalize people 'like him' and he believes it. It is nothing he has ever experienced himself. Again, this is a man who has not set foot in a church in the 20 years I have known him and seems devoid of all religious knowledge. I am sure he doesn't know the difference between, say, a Catholic, a Mormon and an Episcopalian, beyond the absolute most basic issues. I am sure he would say that Catholics obey the pope and.... that is about it.

 

Again, it is a dog whistle, like accepting global warming. It has become a way to let people know what team you belong to, and something to rally round. It seems to matter a lot to the people who want to be on that team, but the rest of us are left going :confused1:  because we don't necessarily hear everything else that is being conveyed in the argument.

[TeacherZee]

When I was growing up the problem was making sure we were allowed to avoid celebrations and activities that conflicted with our conscience without penalty. We did it quietly though with the goal of maintaining a good conscience and not one of affecting societal change.

 

Because we declined quietly few people realize how many things we were avoiding/declining, not participating in etc.

 

I make a point of not making a big deal when my students who are JW don't participate in certain things, I also make a point of making sure that they know that they are under no obligation to participate. :)

[Rosie_0801]

 

 

 

 

It could be that it's 4 o'clock in the morning and my sense drive hasn't recharged properly, but my first thought was the star makes it look like it was a big, fat lie that there were any donkeys present.

[Slartibartfast]

It could be that it's 4 o'clock in the morning and my sense drive hasn't recharged properly, but my first thought was the star makes it look like it was a big, fat lie that there were any donkeys present.

 

:lol:

 

The donkey is a lie!

[Slartibartfast]

A few years ago my minister's Christmas Eve homily was on The power of myth as it concerned Jesus. His point was on the misuse of the term to mean lure our untruth when there's a bigger meaning a la Joseph Campbell that we should perhaps embrace.

 

I have no problem with the use of the term myth when it comes to Christianity. Others are under no obligation to believe in the historicity of Jesus or the birth narrative. Christians might do well to examine the fact that the birth narrative that only appears in two gospels and then in two radically different forms.

 

Are we arguing my faith in this thread? 

 

 Some of the apocrypha also deals with the birth of Jesus. Just because it wasn't included   during the hoedown doesn't make it irrelevant to all of us.

 

And second of all I do what I want. Even if I wanted to worship Ceiling Cat then I will do so. I am not making others worship Ceiling Cat.

[Rosie_0801]

Does anyone else have visions of giant army toys attacking a scene of Christmas trees, Santa, Stars, Angels, and Nativities when they read this topic heading? :leaving:  I think I need to go do something productive.

 

 

No, but you've given me flashbacks to Dr Who Christmas specials with all their Santa Claus, brass band, shooting us all with their high tech tubas scariness.

[nmoira]

No, but you've given me flashbacks to Dr Who Christmas specials with all their Santa Claus, brass band, shooting us all with their high tech tubas scariness.

 

 

[Slartibartfast]

 

 

I think my mom has that nativity set. It is only ravaged by dinosaurs when ds is visiting her.

[nmoira]

I think my mom has that nativity set.

 

We had one very much like it, set on a mantel covered with cotton batting snow, winter wonderlands and Hummels all around.

[twoxcell]

I totally forgot about that Mr. Bean episode. :lol:  That was very similar to what was going on in my head when I read, War on Christmas- do You See It? People should not ask such things of people with active imaginations. When I was little our church had a very similar nativity. My mom was in charge of the Christmas decorations, Christmas tree and all.

[Matryoshka]

I find this such an interesting debate because it is partly a debate about etymology, the word used for this holiday that takes place around the 24th of December. I know that this has already been mentioned but I thought I would point out that in many languages other than English the word is not Christmas at all but rather derivatives of the old germanic word Yule.

 

Okay, I've been managing to happily stay out of this and just "like" a couple of the posts I agree with... but now you've brought in etymology!

 

May I ask which languages refer to Christmas by a derivative of Yule?  The only two Germanic languages I speak don't, but there are lots I don't speak. :)  I looked up the etymology of Weihnachten (German), and it said that the "weih" meant "hallowed/holy", so it meant "holy nights", and that that it had also been used to refer to holy days around the solstice before Christianity - but it doesn't derive from "yule".

 

All the Latin-based languages I know of use some form of "birth" (Navidad/Noel/Natale) to refer to Christmas.

 

Is it the Scandinavian languages you're referring to?  (I don't give a hoot from a religious perspective - I just love etymology ;) )

 

[albeto.]

You've been dying for a reason (ha!) to post that, haven't you? :D

 

Believe it or not, I hesitated quite a bit! My first thought was this:

 

 

http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news/news-sacramento/55-atheist-billboards-to-be-unveiled-in-sacramento-region/-/12969376/23236942/-/dljgaq/-/index.html

 

The comments will show that no matter how... passive? the message is, there are people who take great offense at being confronted with support of an alternative to their religion. I don't mean offense as in getting angry necessarily (that's a reaction, and not universal), but offense as in it offending their sense of good and bad. Christ is good - encouraging people to reject Christ is bad. That kind of thing. But I though this was so passive, I didn't know if it would really answer the OP's question. Then I saw the other one, and... well... it helped answer the question! If people don't see the blatant and public claim that their religious belief is mythological as a war on Christmas, then I guess the idea of a war on Christmas is limited to certain conspiracy theorist communities.