............

[Mom in High Heels]

I just bought chocolate. Well, "chocolate," as it is white "chocolate," for the kids' stockings. I've set aside a major prejudice to accommodate their wishes. :)

 

No!  White chocolate is NOT chocolate.  It's chocolate's insane step sibling that's trying to be popular by adding the word chocolate to its name.  That's right, I'm waging a war on white "chocolate!"  

 

There are Viagra billboards? Are they 3D?

 

James Bond asked me what was so funny after I read this.  I didn't bother telling him.  He wouldn't find it nearly as funny as I did.

 

Yes, but who could be against a holiday that lets you strap burning candles to your head?

 

Isn't that the truth?  I love Europeans and the joy they take in candles.  At Halloween, the kids would carry paper lanterns on a stick, with a REAL candle in them. That would never fly in the US.  Something would be burned down.  My friend's daughter went to German kindergarten, where they kids had real knives on the table (no one cut off a digit!) and burned candles on the table while they are lunch.  At Christmas, they put real freaking candles on trees.

 

Lol, who are these professional atheists ? Getting paid to have no religious belief sounds like a good gig for me. Where can I get their number ?

 

If you find the number, you let me know.  I could totally do that job!

[StaceyinLA]

Stacey, would it be fair to assume you believe that any good behavior is directly related to the holy spirit, whereas any bad behavior is the lack of the guidance of the holy spirit and instead the guidance of the force or power of sin?

Nope. Not fair at all.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Yeah that's exactly what it was, since I'm known to throw those on a regular basis here. Get over it. I realized it wasn't necessary, and I deleted it. You can find something else to attack me about instead.

 

No one is attacking you. We're discussing. But when someone brings heat to a conversation, it's probably going to start a fire. If you don't want to discuss, I think that's totally fine. But then you risk people putting words in your mouth and misinterpreting you. If I did that, I apologize. Frankly, though, you said the words you said, even though you deleted them later. And I can't unsee them, and I can't disbelieve them.

[nmoira]

We have church bells. Which I rather like

I agree they're nice when the don't ring around the clock and when they aren't merely an amplified recording played too loudly over speakers. I've lived near loud "bells" and it's not pleasant. Otherwise, anyone who doesn't like it shouldn't live near a church.

[albeto.]

Nope. Not fair at all.

 

Okay, thanks. 

 

I understand if you're hesitant to correct my summary, but it helps me to parrot things back in my own words. That way I know if I understand correctly or not. Apparently, this fits under "not."

 

:)

[SKL]

We have church bells. Which I rather like.

 

And a call to prayer is not a problem so far as I can see.  It's quite pleasant to listen to and for an unbeliever it's just background noise.

 

It's when sermons ( of any denomination or religion)  hit the airwaves I've got a problem :)

 

Mosque, temple, church...a religion's authority ends at the door of your place of worship.

 

Civic spaces are for everyone to share.

 

Have you been in a majority Muslim city at the time of a call to prayer?  It is indeed broadcast to everyone in the neighborhood who is not stone deaf.  And it is the words to an Islamic verse, God is great, etc.

 

Bells ring the hour, which is rather convenient if you're out and about without a watch.  Bells are not Christian per se.  It might be interesting to study the history of bells in steeples - I would be surprised if it wasn't originally done as a public service rather than a religious communication.  And also, other religions (and non-religious entities too) make considerable use of bells.

[Mom in High Heels]

Well anyway, at least we don't have loud calls to prayer five times a day (365 days per year) like they do in some countries....

 

When we were in Tunisia and Egypt, it was strange to hear at first, but after a while, I found it kind of lovely, to be honest.  I also love the sound of church bells.  We had 3 churches within a few blocks of our housing in Heidelberg, and every day we'd here them.  There's just something peaceful about them.

[Catwoman]

Where do you live? If you're in the US, the ACLU would be able to help you.

:iagree:

 

I would like to know where those things happened, as they seem completely over-the-top. There is simply no way that you would be allowed to wish someone a Happy Hanukkah and not Merry Christmas. If the district wanted to get extreme, they could have adopted a "Happy Holidays" policy and not permitted anyone to mention any religious holiday, but I can't imagine that they would get away with picking-and-choosing the way Amber described it.

 

I guess crazier things have happened, but I know Amber's experiences wouldn't fly where we live, so that's why I'm wondering where it occurred and whether or not those policies are still in effect. (Obviously I'm not asking Amber to reveal her exact location -- she has a right to her privacy!)

[Amber in SJ]

I don't know how to quote the person who quoted me above, but I did not misunderstand anything.  I have a wedding picture on my living room wall with the religious building I was married in in the background, and when I have submitted photos of my children doing whatever as a part of their portfolio I have received a letter saying because there is a religious symbol shown in the picture the sample is not allowed.  That is why I mentioned taking all the photos off the wall.  I submit portfolio samples and the office accepts them or rejects them and sends me an e-mail stating why.  For the ASL video, the reason the office gave for rejecting the sample was the red and green paper in the lower right corner implies our taking part in a religious celebration common to this time of the year.  Maybe I would have legal recourse, but in the meantime my children need an education so for now I attempt to comply with their rules. 

 

I don't appreciate someone implying that I was attempting to pull someone's leg.  The OP asked for our experiences and those are mine.  Weird but true.

 

Amber in SJ. 

 

-And for the other person who asked, I live in San Jose, California, a very diverse area.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

When we were in Tunisia and Egypt, it was strange to hear at first, but after a while, I found it kind of lovely, to be honest.  I also love the sound of church bells.  We had 3 churches within a few blocks of our housing in Heidelberg, and every day we'd here them.  There's just something peaceful about them.

 

I agree, I love the sound of real church bells, though I don't think I'd want to live next door to them!

 

BTW, I ended up on your blog a few nights ago and spent an hour or so reading through your posts about your cruise to Egypt, Turkey, and Israel. Afterward, I felt like I'd been there! Thanks for posting all of those beautiful photos and thorough commentary. Someday, if I can ever work up the nerve to get on a plane again, those are all places I'd love to visit. So much history and complexity and beauty!

[StaceyinLA]

Stacey, I'm saying this from the calmest place possible. I've been involved in discussions with you before. Maybe what you're putting out there is not what you think it is. You may think your words say one thing, but some of us are hearing other things. And your original post, before you deleted it, was several paragraphs longer than, "I don't want to put my faith in humanity. Period."

 

If you'd like to discuss atheism with atheists instead of ranting about it, I'd love to join you. But somehow I don't get the feeling that that's what you want.

Ok first off, I have no idea what discussions you're referring to. I rarely participate in heavy discussions on this board.

 

So my post was longer and I shortened it - that's because I realized it was unnecessarily wordy and not getting to the point. The bottom line was and still is that I choose to put my faith in God.

 

I have no desire to discuss atheism beyond the confines of the thread, and I don't think *I* have been ranting; just making comments like everyone else.

[nmoira]

Oh no, I mean real bells. With bell ringers :) When I lived in the UK I could see the church from my bedroom window. I loved it!

I can only wish. The churches in my neighborhood are modest at best. Only two even have a bell.

[SKL]

I have heard of cases in California where Christian plays were disallowed (in public school) but it was OK to have a Muslim play.  I feel that if you're going to disallow one religion, you have to disallow all of them.

 

I also heard that they had opened a Muslim public school in NYC.  I haven't heard of any Christian (or Jewish) public schools in NYC.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

:iagree:

 

I would like to know where those things happened, as they seem completely over-the-top. There is simply no way that you would be allowed to wish someone a Happy Hanukkah and not Merry Christmas. If the district wanted to get extreme, they could have adopted a "Happy Holidays" policy and not permitted anyone to mention any religious holiday, but I can't imagine that they would get away with picking-and-choosing the way Amber described it.

 

I guess crazier things have happened, but I know Amber's experiences wouldn't fly where we live, so that's why I'm wondering where it occurred and whether or not those policies are still in effect. (Obviously I'm not asking Amber to reveal her exact location -- she has a right to her privacy!)

 

See, those are the kinds of stories I can believe. I can totally see public and secular umbrella school bureaucracy being just that ridiculous or just that overzealous in order to err on the side of caution. And it is California, after all :tongue_smilie:

[Mom in High Heels]

I agree, I love the sound of real church bells, though I don't think I'd want to live next door to them!

 

BTW, I ended up on your blog a few nights ago and spent an hour or so reading through your posts about your cruise to Egypt, Turkey, and Israel. Afterward, I felt like I'd been there! Thanks for posting all of those beautiful photos and thorough commentary. Someday, if I can ever work up the nerve to get on a plane again, those are all places I'd love to visit. So much history and complexity and beauty!

 

 

Aww, thanks!  I haven't blogged in so long!  I still haven't put up my posts about Greece and Italy yet!  I have them typed out, but I haven't put the photos in and posted.  Maybe I will, as a few people have sent me pm's asked when I'm going to put them up.   

 

You know what, living within a few blocks of 3 churches wasn't really that bad.  Yes, we could hear them (thankfully they were pretty much coordinated), but after a while, it just became pleasant background noise.  I loved hearing them at night when it was snowing because the snow made everything else quiet and the bells were crystal clear.

[SKL]

When we were in Tunisia and Egypt, it was strange to hear at first, but after a while, I found it kind of lovely, to be honest.

 

It did not bother me either, but I guess it would/should bother a person who is upset by a nativity scene on public property.

[StaceyinLA]

No one is attacking you. We're discussing. But when someone brings heat to a conversation, it's probably going to start a fire. If you don't want to discuss, I think that's totally fine. But then you risk people putting words in your mouth and misinterpreting you. If I did that, I apologize. Frankly, though, you said the words you said, even though you deleted them later. And I can't unsee them, and I can't disbelieve them.

I deleted those words within 3 minutes of posting them. I'm sure not a soul on here has ever done that. I was trying to make a comparison that I realized would likely be misconstrued (as it most certainly was in the couple minutes after I posted it), and I removed it. Whether you can unsee it or not, I am not discussing that post any further on this thread.

[StaceyinLA]

It isn't my responsibility to go follow your posts to see what you do and don't delete.

 

You had a vent about things totally unrelated to Christmas - things like gay marriage being 'shoved in your face' - I'm sorry but it did read like a tantrum about all the things you don't like about living in a (somewhat) liberal society.

 

If you would like me to go and delete my post, now you've alerted me to the fact that you've deleted yours, I would be more than happy to do so.

 

As I said, it was a comparison that I realized would be misinterpreted and you have proven that it was. This thread has been off Christmas for quite a few pages.

 

You are welcome to do whatever you choose with your post.

[LucyStoner]

It did not bother me either, but I guess it would/should bother a person who is upset by a nativity scene on public property.

I would not want to live in a place with a state religion. I have not been bothered by signs of a state religion while traveling to a place that does. When in Rome and all that. The call to prayers didn't bother me, but again I am not moving anytime soon.

[StaceyinLA]

Okay, thanks.

 

I understand if you're hesitant to correct my summary, but it helps me to parrot things back in my own words. That way I know if I understand correctly or not. Apparently, this fits under "not."

 

:)

I'm not hesitant. It just seemed simple enough that I didn't think a "No" needed further explanation.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Ok first off, I have no idea what discussions you're referring to. I rarely participate in heavy discussions on this board.

 

So my post was longer and I shortened it - that's because I realized it was unnecessarily wordy and not getting to the point. The bottom line was and still is that I choose to put my faith in God.

 

I have no desire to discuss atheism beyond the confines of the thread, and I don't think *I* have been ranting; just making comments like everyone else.

 

And my point is, in getting to your bottom line, you used some pretty hefty wording that also relays how you feel about other issues and implies how you feel about atheism and atheists and your outrage at those who were disagreeing with you (even though lots of us were disagreeing with one another and still discussing). I'm certain I'm not the only one who came away with that.

 

You don't anymore, but you did at one point, and I can think of at least one discussion in particular where you and I debated and you were very angry and felt attacked because your statements were being questioned.

 

I'm sorry you don't care to discuss further. I still really wish I could get an answer to the question I asked, because I think it's important to fostering understanding. But, OK.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

It did not bother me either, but I guess it would/should bother a person who is upset by a nativity scene on public property.

 

Why? We're talking about a different set of countries here, right? With an entirely different culture? And the mosques and air space are presumably not US-government owned?

[StaceyinLA]

And my point is, in getting to your bottom line, you used some pretty hefty wording that also relays how you feel about other issues and implies how you feel about atheism and atheists and your outrage at those who were disagreeing with you (even though lots of us were disagreeing with one another and still discussing). I'm certain I'm not the only one who came away with that.

 

You don't anymore, but you did at one point, and I can think of at least one discussion in particular where you and I debated and you were very angry and felt attacked because your statements were being questioned.

 

I'm sorry you don't care to discuss further. I still really wish I could get an answer to the question I asked, because I think it's important to fostering understanding. But, OK.

Ok so if I got frustrated and tried to make a comparison to explain something, then realized it wasn't going to be understood how I meant it, and deleted it, I figure I did the right thing.

 

As far as another thread where I was frustrated, well I've been on the boards 12 years, so I guess that could've happened once or maybe even twice, but it's not my usual pattern.

 

I'm not opposed to answering a question, but you'll have to ask again because I'm not sure what you're referring to.

[albeto.]

I don't know how to quote the person who quoted me above, but I did not misunderstand anything.  I have a wedding picture on my living room wall with the religious building I was married in in the background, and when I have submitted photos of my children doing whatever as a part of their portfolio I have received a letter saying because there is a religious symbol shown in the picture the sample is not allowed.  That is why I mentioned taking all the photos off the wall.  I submit portfolio samples and the office accepts them or rejects them and sends me an e-mail stating why.  For the ASL video, the reason the office gave for rejecting the sample was the red and green paper in the lower right corner implies our taking part in a religious celebration common to this time of the year.  Maybe I would have legal recourse, but in the meantime my children need an education so for now I attempt to comply with their rules. 

 

I don't appreciate someone implying that I was attempting to pull someone's leg.  The OP asked for our experiences and those are mine.  Weird but true.

 

Amber in SJ. 

 

-And for the other person who asked, I live in San Jose, California, a very diverse area.

 

Do you mean to suggest that through your homeschool charter, through the public school district of San Jose, California, Muslim families cannot contribute educational samples if their daughters are wearing a hijab? Orthodox Jews can't wear the yarmulke? Are they allowed to take classes? Or are Christians the only ones discriminated against? If that's the case, it's a clear violation of your right to religious freedom and people will help you get obtain your civil liberties. However, I suspect this is a matter of misunderstanding, because a blatant abuse that results in obvious religious discrimination isn't likely to have caught no one's attention in San Jose, California. I quick search returned no cases of anti-christian discrimination in the San Jose public school district. 

[SKL]

Why? We're talking about a different set of countries here, right? With an entirely different culture? And the mosques and air space are presumably not US-government owned?

 

I meant that it would/should bother anti-Nativity-on-public-property people IF it was happening in this country.  (And maybe it does in some US locations, I don't know.)

 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Ok so if I got frustrated and tried to make a comparison to explain something, then realized it wasn't going to be understood how I meant it, and deleted it, I figure I did the right thing.

 

As far as another thread where I was frustrated, well I've been on the boards 12 years, so I guess that could've happened once or maybe even twice, but it's not my usual pattern.

 

I'm not opposed to answering a question, but you'll have to ask again because I'm not sure what you're referring to.

 

Well, I'll ask again, but some people thought it would get the thread locked, which was absolutely not my intention, so I hope it does not do that.

 

You said (basically) that you put your faith in God because you refused to put your faith in this flawed, awful humanity. I asked what you would say to atheists/agnostics who question why people would put their faith in a God who it appears would allow things like the Holocaust to happen, or allow terrible suffering to happen to good people. It is, to me, analogous, and it's an issue that plagues many agnostics (and presumably many believers as well).

 

Feel free to answer or not. It's just one of those things I wonder about (along with, if Adam and Eve were truly the first man and woman, where did all the rest of the population come from? Did God create other, lesser known humans after that? I can probably Google that one though!)

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I meant that it would/should bother anti-Nativity-on-public-property people IF it was happening in this country.  (And maybe it does in some US locations, I don't know.)

 

 

Oh, hmmm. No, I still don't think it would (or at least not the rational ones), because again, the mosques are private entities. Now, if my town's municipal building was issuing the calls, then yeah, get me a petition. But otherwise, like church bells and the incredibly loud prayers and singing issuing from the Pentecostal church across from our old apartment at all hours of the day and night, it's just sound coming from a private building. Now, from a noise pollution perspective, it would drive me insane, but only because I like a quiet neighborhood. But then I wouldn't have moved nearby in the first place, or I would move (like we did from that apartment because of the loud church noise and the crazy loud music from the guy across the street and up the block, and the thunderous 4-year-old who lived upstairs). But it had nothing to do with a separation of church and state concern.

[zoobie]

I don't know how to quote the person who quoted me above, but I did not misunderstand anything. I have a wedding picture on my living room wall with the religious building I was married in in the background, and when I have submitted photos of my children doing whatever as a part of their portfolio I have received a letter saying because there is a religious symbol shown in the picture the sample is not allowed. That is why I mentioned taking all the photos off the wall. I submit portfolio samples and the office accepts them or rejects them and sends me an e-mail stating why. For the ASL video, the reason the office gave for rejecting the sample was the red and green paper in the lower right corner implies our taking part in a religious celebration common to this time of the year. Maybe I would have legal recourse, but in the meantime my children need an education so for now I attempt to comply with their rules.

 

I don't appreciate someone implying that I was attempting to pull someone's leg. The OP asked for our experiences and those are mine. Weird but true.

 

Amber in SJ.

 

-And for the other person who asked, I live in San Jose, California, a very diverse area.

Contacting the ACLU or hiring your own attorney can be done while your children are in school. If the charter is putting the discrimination in writing via email, it would be a very easy case. Think of the homeschool research opportunities. All kinds of up close and personal with the legal system, and it teaches your children how to stand up for themselves and their closely held beliefs.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

My late coffee has about worn off, so I have to stop avoiding my work now and finish and get to bed. I really hope this thread is still here in the morning. Good night, all.

[StaceyinLA]

My personal belief (and I'm sure it isn't the same for everyone) is that God knows things that will happen, but has given free will to all man. They can choose to follow him, or to not follow him. They can choose good, or they can choose evil. I believe that there is a bigger plan that I cannot see (hence the faith), but I am of the opinion that the free will of man is responsible for most of the things that occur in the world.

 

I do believe one can have morals without being a believer in God. The Bible speaks of those who aren't believers yet live like believers in Romans. I also believe Christians can sin and sin big.

 

And to add with regards to humanity, I think one problem there is that I see no potential for any promise with putting faith in man over God. Faith in God is what gives me hope for eternity. God's promises pull me through when no human ever could.

[SKL]

Oh, hmmm. No, I still don't think it would (or at least not the rational ones), because again, the mosques are private entities.

 

If you wouldn't mind being awakened in your own bed by loud chants of "God is great, God is great" etc. 365 days per year, then I really fail to understand why it would bother you that a silent physical display is temporarily set up in one place which nobody is forcing you to look at.

 

I'm not saying the government should set up Nativity scenes.  But who cares if they make public space available for folks to make displays of their choice at their holiday times?  I mean, it makes people happy.  It doesn't put anybody down.  I honestly don't understand the negative mindset.  It just seems grinchy to me.

 

My nearby big city park (near downtown) has a fountain with some carvings around it from different religions.  I thought that was very diverse of them, until I found out that it's actually an entirely atheist theme putting down religion - as in, look how great it is that we've risen above all that backward religion stuff.  That rubs me the wrong way.  But on the other hand, at least they do holiday lighting and all that.  It's secular, but at least it's not anti-religion and it's cheery.

[albeto.]

My personal belief (and I'm sure it isn't the same for everyone) is that God knows things that will happen, but has given free will to all man. They can choose to follow him, or to not follow him. They can choose good, or they can choose evil. I believe that there is a bigger plan that I cannot see (hence the faith), but I am of the opinion that the free will of man is responsible for most of the things that occur in the world.

 

I do believe one can have morals without being a believer in God. The Bible speaks of those who aren't believers yet live like believers in Romans. I also believe Christians can sin and sin big.

 

And to add with regards to humanity, I think one problem there is that I see no potential for any promise with putting faith in man over God. Faith in God is what gives me hope for eternity. God's promises pull me through when no human ever could.

 

Well, it sounds like there's not a lot of promise in putting faith in God over man, either. I mean, if God gives people the freedom to do as they please, and nonbelievers do good and believers do bad, what promise is being made, exactly? It seems the promise involves either living for eternity in heaven for the believer (John 14:2-4) or no longer existing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), or perhaps suffering for eternity (Revelation 20:10). In any case, this promise must be accepted first on faith that the religious claims are good to their word, but no one will know until after they die. Putting faith in humanity is another way of saying that we recognize and strive for certain characteristics that are valued because they contribute to safe, secure, and enjoyable cooperative society. The claims made by proponents of certain ideas can be held accountable for their success or failure to be reliable, this is untrue of the god of the bible because one can never know until after they die (1 Corinthians 13:12). I hope it's not too much of a bunny trail from the OP, but these campaigns serve to inspire conversation like this, and this is how we share and learn and empathize with each other. 

[Amber in SJ]

I have never attempted to submit a sample with one my my children wearing a hajib or a yarmulke so I wouldn't know if those items would get flagged and refused.  I can only speak to my experience, and they are what is stated above.  I have not filed for any kind of legal recourse because I choose to take the instructional funds and in doing so I choose to follow the rules as best I can.  I do know that there are Muslim families that participate in our charter school, so I can only assume that their wearing of religious apparel is not a problem with the office.  One of my children wrote on his learning record this month that he read "The Best Christmas Pageant Ever," and our ES crossed out the title, but left "Herschel and the Hanukkah Goblins."  I find the implication that I am lying or exaggerating, because you can't find any cases of anti-discrimination against Christians offensive.  If the rules become to onerous I will just quit the charter school.  I would not try to make them bend to fit me.  I would not file a lawsuit against a school for something like this, I would simply leave the school.  Maybe that is an unusual stance in our litigious society.

 

Amber in SJ

 

[zoobie]

I have heard of cases in California where Christian plays were disallowed (in public school) but it was OK to have a Muslim play. I feel that if you're going to disallow one religion, you have to disallow all of them.

 

I also heard that they had opened a Muslim public school in NYC. I haven't heard of any Christian (or Jewish) public schools in NYC.

Could you be thinking of the new NYC mayor adding two Muslim holidays to the public school calendar? This has been a political issue for several years. The vitriol over "Sharia law" taking over the government and all that has given it some national attention on various outlets.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

My personal belief (and I'm sure it isn't the same for everyone) is that God knows things that will happen, but has given free will to all man. They can choose to follow him, or to not follow him. They can choose good, or they can choose evil. I believe that there is a bigger plan that I cannot see (hence the faith), but I am of the opinion that the free will of man is responsible for most of the things that occur in the world.

 

I do believe one can have morals without being a believer in God. The Bible speaks of those who aren't believers yet live like believers in Romans. I also believe Christians can sin and sin big.

 

Darn it, I almost made it off the board!

 

So then God has the ability to end or prevent suffering and chooses not to? Again, as an atheist, I would ask, why would anyone choose to believe in an entity so callous? If He has a plan, and human suffering is part of the plan, I would ask, why does it have to be so when He could choose to make it not so? Why would He allow the free will of some to cause such destruction and pain in the lives of others? Why allow terrible diseases to ravage the bodies and lives of those who did nothing to deserve them, and the lives of their loved ones? Why not just fix us all and be done with it--end the suffering, reward the righteous, punish or "fix" those who require it, reveal himself to the doubters, explain himself to the debaters, etc.? (Just to be clear, I'm not saying I believe any of this. I'm just discussing for the sake of understanding and clarification, because you questioned why someone would choose to put faith in humanity, and instead you put your faith in God. Your belief in humanity's unworthiness is roughly equivalent to some people's belief in God's unworthiness.)

 

For my part, I don't believe in a God (or gods). As I understand it, we're all here together on this rock, each making our own journey, and we're doing the best we can. Some of us are flawed and broken and choose to hurt others, some of us can't help but hurt others because we don't know how else to be, but the majority of us are doing the best we can with what we have for ourselves and for others. I don't worship humanity or believe we're a homegeneous mass of any kind. My faith is that the good will ultimately overcome the evil (even if it's at a snail's pace), and sometimes the evil drives the greater good, and in the meantime there's both great suffering and great joy in the mix.

 

Feel free to PM me if you feel like this thread will be gone soon.

 

ETA: Added a point and fixed a typo or two.

[Audrey]

Is airspace civic property ? I have no idea. Thing is, it's kinda hard to regulate sound. I mean, people might be very properly on their religious property but the sound travels.

 

It's more like living across from a church and seeing the nativity in their front yard when you leave the house, I guess.

 

I'm not sure, but there are noise pollution ordinances in most villages, towns and cities here.  Personally, I greatly dislike all loud noises, including the Catholic church bells at 6am, noon and 6pm.  They're far too loud.  I live far enough away that I only hear them if I'm in town.  I'm not the only one who thinks they're obnoxious either.  There have been at least 3 petitions that I know of to get them to turn them down (because they're not real bells; they're some kind of recorded thing), but nothing ever gets done about.  What is most obnoxious is that when presented with requests to turn the bells down (not off, mind you, just down) the church-y folks get all shirty about it, even if some of them complain about how loud it is amongst themselves. :glare:

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

If you wouldn't mind being awakened in your own bed by loud chants of "God is great, God is great" etc. 365 days per year, then I really fail to understand why it would bother you that a silent physical display is temporarily set up in one place which nobody is forcing you to look at.

 

I'm not saying the government should set up Nativity scenes.  But who cares if they make public space available for folks to make displays of their choice at their holiday times?  I mean, it makes people happy.  It doesn't put anybody down.  I honestly don't understand the negative mindset.  It just seems grinchy to me.

 

My nearby big city park (near downtown) has a fountain with some carvings around it from different religions.  I thought that was very diverse of them, until I found out that it's actually an entirely atheist theme putting down religion - as in, look how great it is that we've risen above all that backward religion stuff.  That rubs me the wrong way.  But on the other hand, at least they do holiday lighting and all that.  It's secular, but at least it's not anti-religion and it's cheery.

 

I'm not being argumentative, but if you really don't see the difference by now, then no one is going to be able to make you understand it, either because you simply refuse to see the difference or you're arguing just to mess with us. So I'll let someone else work on it, because I don't see how I can explain it anymore clearly.

 

And I don't agree with anti-religious government-sponsored public displays either, which is yet another good reason that the government should maybe stay out of it altogether.

[SKL]

Could you be thinking of the new NYC mayor adding two Muslim holidays to the public school calendar? This has been a political issue for several years. The vitriol over "Sharia law" taking over the government and all that has given it some national attention on various outlets.

 

No, it was a new school.  I read about it years ago.  However, now I cannot find it, but I did find an Arabic public school in New York, so maybe that was what it was.  Or maybe they ended up nixing the Muslim school.

 

I don't have a problem with them having a couple of school holidays for each of the major religions that have a representative population in the area.  Though I thought people were already allowed to take off individually on religious holidays, there are a lot of Muslims in NY so it would make sense to just give everyone the day off.

 

[albeto.]

If you wouldn't mind being awakened in your own bed by loud chants of "God is great, God is great" etc. 365 days per year, then I really fail to understand why it would bother you that a silent physical display is temporarily set up in one place which nobody is forcing you to look at.

Because the mosque pays for their chants. The taxpayers pay for public utilities, and celebration of a mythology is not appropriate use of taxpayer money.

 

 

I'm not saying the government should set up Nativity scenes.  But who cares if they make public space available for folks to make displays of their choice at their holiday times?  I mean, it makes people happy.  It doesn't put anybody down.  I honestly don't understand the negative mindset.  It just seems grinchy to me.

Perhaps it puts no one you know and love down, but I the historical record is full of public policy inspired by mythological beliefs that not only "puts people down." The Christian religion has history of rationalizing and organizing programs that putt people in prison, enforced lobotomies, castration and institutionalization, stole infants to sell for profit, enslaved girls and women, organized obstacles to education, systematically kidnapped children, and more. There exists an entire, long, tragic history that is simply chilling to those who are not privileged to have escaped it, rationalized at the time for any number of reasons inspired by religious beliefs. 

 

My nearby big city park (near downtown) has a fountain with some carvings around it from different religions.  I thought that was very diverse of them, until I found out that it's actually an entirely atheist theme putting down religion - as in, look how great it is that we've risen above all that backward religion stuff.  That rubs me the wrong way.  But on the other hand, at least they do holiday lighting and all that.  It's secular, but at least it's not anti-religion and it's cheery.

 

Completely irrelevant, and likely misunderstood. 

[SKL]

So here's an idea.  How about a hologram of the nativity?  Then it would only be taking up air space, right?  Not a problem.  Or maybe hijack one of those new Amazon hovercrafts and dress it up and let it fly around the park.  Hmm.

 

The idea of the call to prayer being noise pollution - that would be an interesting debate, I'll bet.  I am seriously interested in how that would work.  Does anyone know whether they do the loudspeaker calls to prayer anywhere in the US?

[NASDAQ]

Re: Muslim and Jewish holidays being "okay"

 

I think there's a patronising tendency to look at other religions as "cultural" any enriching, whereas Christianity is just straight religion.

 

It's actually kind of obnoxious, since members of other religions experience their own religions as theologically profound and not just latkes and hijabs and nifty stories.

[albeto.]

I have never attempted to submit a sample with one my my children wearing a hajib or a yarmulke so I wouldn't know if those items would get flagged and refused.  I can only speak to my experience, and they are what is stated above.  I have not filed for any kind of legal recourse because I choose to take the instructional funds and in doing so I choose to follow the rules as best I can.  I do know that there are Muslim families that participate in our charter school, so I can only assume that their wearing of religious apparel is not a problem with the office.  One of my children wrote on his learning record this month that he read "The Best Christmas Pageant Ever," and our ES crossed out the title, but left "Herschel and the Hanukkah Goblins."  I find the implication that I am lying or exaggerating, because you can't find any cases of anti-discrimination against Christians offensive.  If the rules become to onerous I will just quit the charter school.  I would not try to make them bend to fit me.  I would not file a lawsuit against a school for something like this, I would simply leave the school.  Maybe that is an unusual stance in our litigious society.

 

Amber in SJ

 

If it helps at all, I can see what recourse you might have, and look into restitution in such a way that this doesn't come back to identify you. Your children should have the same rights as every other child utilizing the public schools, and frankly, I find religious discrimination as unacceptable as any other discrimination. I don't share your religion, but I absolutely don't share any tolerance for abuse of power, especially when it acts as an oppressive agent to children. You can PM me if you want. 

[NASDAQ]

Re: Islam in California. I know that some years ago there was some upset over inappropriate implementation of a seventh grade unit on Islam.

 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/islam.asp

 

Snopes has a pretty even-handed summary.

[SKL]

Perhaps it puts no one you know and love down, but I the historical record is full of public policy inspired by mythological beliefs that not only "puts people down." The Christian religion has history of rationalizing and organizing programs that putt people in prison, enforced lobotomies, castration and institutionalization, stole infants to sell for profit, enslaved girls and women, organized obstacles to education, systematically kidnapped children, and more. There exists an entire, long, tragic history that is simply chilling to those who are not privileged to have escaped it, rationalized at the time for any number of reasons inspired by religious beliefs. 

 

 

Looking at a Nativity has had none of those horrible effects on anybody, ever.

 

White supremacy has done a lot of horrible things to people of color, but I hope nobody is suggesting white people should cover their faces lest someone of color re-live the trauma upon seeing us.

 

And by the way, Christians have also withstood their fair share of persecution over the years, and still continue to in many parts of the world.  Your post makes it sound like Christians invented persecution.

[albeto.]

Looking at a Nativity has had none of those horrible effects on anybody, ever.

You asked who cares if they make public space available for folks to make displays of their choice at their holiday times? You said it makes people happy. It doesn't put anybody down. I offered an alternative. It doesn't make everyone happy.

 

White supremacy has done a lot of horrible things to people of color, but I hope nobody is suggesting white people should cover their faces lest someone of color re-live the trauma upon seeing us.

No, but when the KKK wants to march in a public parade, the city has the decision to let them participate, as is their right, or cancel the whole thing. Religious celebrations in public places works in a similar way.

 

Your post makes it sound like Christians invented persecution.

Only if you insist on reading it completely out of context or don't understand the argument.

[NASDAQ]

Surely Christianity is in no way comparable to the KKK.

[SKL]

Re: Muslim and Jewish holidays being "okay"

 

I think there's a patronising tendency to look at other religions as "cultural" any enriching, whereas Christianity is just straight religion.

 

It's actually kind of obnoxious, since members of other religions experience their own religions as theologically profound and not just latkes and hijabs and nifty stories.

 

If you're talking about my post, I said "all the major religions," treating Christianity equally with whatever other religions are locally significant.  I do not know how that gave rise to the assumption quoted above.

 

[SKL]

Well, this is the first time I have learned that seeing a Nativity brings to mind all sorts of graphic torture scenes for some people.  How traumatic it must be.  I think I need to stop reading this thread now.

[NASDAQ]

If you're talking about my post, I said "all the major religions," treating Christianity equally with whatever other religions are locally significant.  I do not know how that gave rise to the assumption quoted above.

 

 

I was speaking about the person who was told that the Christmas pageant book was not okay for school credit, but Hershel and the Hannukah Goblins was fine.

[albeto.]

Surely Christianity is in no way comparable to the KKK.

 

That is not what I'm saying.