s/o Those of you that think gas prices should equal Europe's

[Alte Veste Academy]

I think the person way way up thread who described our nation as more a bunch of mini nations sorta floating along together was more accurate than people feel comfortable admitting.

Not this people. ;) But then again I am a Texan... :lol:

[Catwoman]

Not this people. ;) But then again I am a Texan... :lol:

And a Grinch. :D

 

(Sorry, but I'm obsessed with your avatar. I love the Grinch... and Max the dog, too!)

[Alte Veste Academy]

And a Grinch. :D

 

(Sorry, but I'm obsessed with your avatar. I love the Grinch... and Max the dog, too!)

LOL I love the Grinch and Christmas. I pity Max. I would never make my real dog wear antlers. :tongue_smilie:

[Murphy101]

Not this people. ;) But then again I am a Texan... :lol:

Yes... Well... I'm well aware. My dh has his Texas birth certificate mounted in 20x24 lone star splendor in the living room. :)

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

*shrug*

 

I'm okay with that. I think the person way way up thread who described our nation as more a bunch of mini nations sorta floating along together was more accurate than people feel comfortable admitting.

Lol. I think that was me, although I admit to paraphrasing a definition I heard that a helicopter is just an assemblage of parts flying in rough formation. Seems fitting either way.

[Laura Corin]

I'll take a stab at it. It would seem that a deep part of our political divide has to do with the self vs the community, and the polarization has progressed that to an extreme. With a scant couple centuries under our belt, we are still not far removed from that uber-individualistic pioneer (or cowboy) ethos that keeps distrust of authority alive and kicking, even in the face of contrary evidence (e.g, socialized medicine is bad, unless it's my medicare or VA).

 

 

I've even wondered if there is a genetic component to this.  The people who got up and went passed on that individualistic drive.  I've no idea if there's any basis to this.

 

The US scores higher on extraversion than does the UK too; I've often wondered whether this is cultural or, again, the extraverts got on a boat whereas the introverts stayed at home.

 

L

[Murphy101]

I've even wondered if there is a genetic component to this. The people who got up and went passed on that individualistic drive. I've no idea if there's any basis to this.

 

The US scores higher on extraversion than does the UK too; I've often wondered whether this is cultural or, again, the extraverts got on a boat whereas the introverts stayed at home.

 

L

Sounds like a nature vs nurture or chicken/egg conundrum to me. *shrug* ETA: <---- not really dismissive, just not sure that it matters.

 

Wrt, I don't think of individualism as extroversion. I think of it is introverted. Very much so even. And I don't think that is a negative. I also don't think extroversion is a de facto positive either.

[Laura Corin]

Sounds like a nature vs nurture or chicken/egg conundrum to me. *shrug* ETA: <---- not really dismissive, just not sure that it matters.

 

Wrt, I don't think of individualism as extroversion. I think of it is introverted. Very much so even. And I don't think that is a negative. I also don't think extroversion is a de facto positive either.

 

I wasn't saying that individualism and extraversion were the same.  More that the venn diagram intersection of extraversion and individualism might be the group that would get on a boat.

 

I do think that there is a genetic element to extraversion/introversion.  Our family goes: 3 introvert grandparents, one extravert.  Two introvert (youngest child) parents.  One introvert son, on extravert (youngest child) son.  Hobbes has been highly social and people-focused from birth.

 

It doesn't matter really, but I think that it's useful to understand that societal characteristics can be driven by many factors.

 

L

[amy g.]

I have a friend who owned a biodiesel company. I can't remember all of the details, but my husband was talking to him about how profitable the company was.

 

My friend admitted that it was completely unsustainable without government subsidies.

[Carrie12345]

On the "what are you for" question, I don't know! Honestly, I don't.

 

But I don't see how it would work in my region. Our schools (our district alone covers 300 square miles) are at a 50% free lunch rate. Our grocery stores and farm stands are miles and miles apart (though several are clustered in some areas). We don't meet all the definitions of a food desert b/c car ownership IS high, but I've seen an uptick in people pushing carts to gas station convenience stores. Some kids do walk to our bus stop, (1 mile from my house) and then stand next to the lake in winter weather in the dark waiting up to 30 minutes for the bus. Driving to the doctor or dentist is a $7 trip at our current gas prices in a mom mobile.

 

We make it work, but I truly don't know how half of the families around here do, let alone how they would if prices jumped. During the last big spike, dh got a Prius. He'd happily sell it now, but it's on its last legs after 340,000 miles. We can't even save it for our own teenager unless he wants to buy a new engine.

 

Many people have fled back to the cities already b/c of all the rising costs. Mostly by abandoning their houses. My home's value has gone down by 40-something percent as a result. To have more people squeezed out would completely and totally destroy the entire region's economy, and then compound it by reducing tourism with higher gas prices.

And I say all that as a person who is trying to get out, yet feels guilty for being *this* close to being able to do so.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I've even wondered if there is a genetic component to this. The people who got up and went passed on that individualistic drive. I've no idea if there's any basis to this.

 

The US scores higher on extraversion than does the UK too; I've often wondered whether this is cultural or, again, the extraverts got on a boat whereas the introverts stayed at home.

 

L

There was a bit of sci news last summer about acquired traits being passed via mRNA, so yeah, why not add it to the stew of possibilities?

 

Driving down that branch a bit....If the car is an expression of individuality (beyond the guy with the yellow Vette, but, ok, him too), and you pair that with a governmental structure of state/federal with states expressing individual priorities (e.g. tax and spending), then it would seem the system of the people, by the people is hard-wired against collective projects like really big transit systems.

 

Again, not THE answer, but a curious part? I buy it.

[Melinda in VT]

I think changing zoning laws to consolidate new building is one place to start. I live in a rural area. In most places around here, the minimum building lot is 5 acres. *Most* people don't use those 5 acres as anything other than green space. We are on 8 acres. We actually looked for a house that was in a walkable community when we moved here, but at the time we were looking to buy, there wasn't anything that would work for our family. Still, we sometimes wish we'd rented for a while until we found something that was walkable. DH and I have pledged that our next house will be walking distance to a grocery store, restaurant, library, and church.

 

My community would be better off if those of us who weren't farming lived on smaller lots in closer proximity to services. But the zoning has to change first to favor density.

[Melinda in VT]

But by and large, those rules are there precisely to protect your area from wasteful suburbanization and sprawl, which is an excellent goal.

 

Don't move to a rural area if you want to walk (and yes, I am familiar with the fact that it's just that simple, and just that difficult, as they say). Certainly don't think that eliminating rural areas to make them walkable is an ethical choice by any measure.

 

Telling folks they can now squeeze 60 houses onto your five acres won't in and of itself solve anything what-so-ever. It will, however, ruin even more arable land.

 

Oh, I am all about protecting places from suburbanization! What we have now is way better than suburbs.

 

I live in a valley with a series of towns that each have a very small historic village center, and then lots of homes scattered through the surrounding countryside on these 5-10 acre lots. I would like to see the village center area expanded and the density raised for that area (NOT typical suburban-sized lots). I'd like to push the zoning for larger lots farther out from the village centers.

 

And yes, I absolutely do think that that is an ethical choice. My area is not growing in population. These new houses going up on these new lots are eroding the rural nature in their own way. I actually think my idea would do more to preserve the rural areas than the current zoning does.

[mommymilkies]

I've even wondered if there is a genetic component to this.  The people who got up and went passed on that individualistic drive.  I've no idea if there's any basis to this.

 

The US scores higher on extraversion than does the UK too; I've often wondered whether this is cultural or, again, the extraverts got on a boat whereas the introverts stayed at home.

 

L

I can see that somewhat, but then again, I wonder how much of this has changed over time? Most of my ancestors moved to the US to live in very isolated areas, largely separated from most of society in the Appalachians.  Most were very poor immigrants or indentured servants that came over for better prospects.  So I don't think it's true for everyone, obviously.  I think one can be ruggedly individualistic AND introverted.  

[mommymilkies]

Yes, not everyone's family got here the same way, even if we're just (for some reason?) talking about typical European immigration. Nor did everyone hit the trails once they were here.

 

Good point.  Not everyone who came to America did so for the adventure.  Many were forced here by famine, poverty, or slavery. And society has changed a lot over the past few hundred years.  

[Laura Corin]

I think changing zoning laws to consolidate new building is one place to start. I live in a rural area. In most places around here, the minimum building lot is 5 acres. *Most* people don't use those 5 acres as anything other than green space. We are on 8 acres. We actually looked for a house that was in a walkable community when we moved here, but at the time we were looking to buy, there wasn't anything that would work for our family. Still, we sometimes wish we'd rented for a while until we found something that was walkable. DH and I have pledged that our next house will be walking distance to a grocery store, restaurant, library, and church.

 

My community would be better off if those of us who weren't farming lived on smaller lots in closer proximity to services. But the zoning has to change first to favor density.

 

For another view on this:

 

In the UK, each settlement (village, town) has an 'envelope' designated.  It roughly encloses the existing houses.  Getting planning permission to build on land within the envelope is fairly easy.  Outwith the envelope, you can build if you are replacing a house (extant or tumble-down) or other building, or if you are building accommodation for rural workers (farm hands, etc.)

 

In a country as densely populated as the UK, this has preserved the countryside, as well as making settlements walkable.  

 

So if you live in the countryside, you can live in a fairly dense village (probably 1 acre  of ground per house) but with right-to-roam over the nearby countryside.  Or you can live outwith the village where there has always been a building of some kind and with more land.

 

Beyond this, planning permission can be sought for planned expansion of a settlement, but it takes a lot of lobbying and you have to provide neighbourhood services (shops, doctor's surgery, etc.) for the new area.  And occasionally a complete new town will be designated.

 

L

[Melinda in VT]

Building more houses on rural land (your words) makes it........not rural. I do not follow your reasoning here. I understand what you're saying about the proximity of the houses to the "town center." But how would putting more houses on current arable land "preserve a rural area?"

 

If the area is not growing in population, why would they need more homes?

 

I hope I don't sound aggressive here...I really don't understand how you are using these words....rural, expanded twon center but not suburbanization (?)....preserve rural areas....

 

Building is going on right now. My complaint is that due to zoning laws that require large lots, the new houses are spread throughout the countryside. I think this damages the rural nature of the valley, and it guarantees that anyone who lives in those new houses is 100% dependent on a personal vehicle.

 

What I think the towns should do is increase the density in the village centers and expand the village center zoning area so that the new building would be consolidated in the towns.

 

Why do we need new houses if the population isn't growing? Partly because it's a tourist area, so lots of people have summer or winter homes here even though they aren't year-round residents. Partly because people would prefer to build new instead of live in an older home. Partly because homes in the village center are converted to hair salons, attorney's offices, gift shops for the tourists, etc.

 

I would like a development pattern more like what Laura described in her post. It's just that our town centers need to expand their envelope a bit from what it is currently. But I want the expansion to be high-density, not suburbs.

 

[Renee in NC]

The problem is with their model. No one lives in a baseball stadium or performing arts center. The types of communities people in this thread are talking about are one that have dense housing, grocery stores, dry cleaners, day care, playgrounds, ballparks, etc.. As others have stated - it's a different mindset and it doesn't happen overnight. Urban planning is just that, planning. The thing is, you can't just plan, you have to execute the plan.

 

I would live in an area where we could walk most places and take public transport to others as long as (a) the schools were GOOD, and (b) we didn't have to live in a low income neighborhood.  Been there, done that, and don't EVER plan to do it again.

 

I don't need a big house.  I don't need my own car.  I would love to live near parks, stores, museums, etc.  I do need good schools, a safe area, and friendly, non-drama filled neighbors.

[justamouse]

European gas prices would be the death knell for small American farmers--you know, the ones we all say we're going to support instead of mega-agriculture. Yeah, my 1940's-50's tractors aren't terribly fuel efficient, but they're paid for and I can't afford 5 new tractors at $50,000 a pop. Whatever happened to the "reduce, reuse, recycle" push? I'm reusing old equipment.

 

Ride the bus to town? What bus? There is none here. There IS a ski bus, but we have to get to town to take it. And it only goes to the ski area.

 

Bike to town? We got a foot of snow today and it will be -20 in another hour. That's a recipe for someone freezing to death. Just got an email from the U of WY that they're offering rides to campus for the next few days, because the wind chill will be -50. It will be -29 WITHOUT wind chill tomorrow.

 

Europeans just don't get USA distances. My dd has to see the doctor tomorrow. It will be a MINIMUM of a six hour drive. There is no other doctor that does her surgery. And she can't drive herself, so dh will drive her to Denver, then Laramie and THEN drive home. This is just for a 15 minute doctor appointment. It's not like she can pop down to the olde family doc just down the street. Sorry, guys, but we don't live in little villages with everything we need. The West never did have that.

 

This is what I was thinking of, forget all of the farmer's markets and farms, they'd go out of business. 

[Melissa in Australia]

This is what I was thinking of, forget all of the farmer's markets and farms, they'd go out of business. 

Here all primary producers do not pay any of the tax on fuel that they use on their farm. they keep a logbook if they have to drive their farm vehicles including tractors on the road, they only pay fuel tax on the km's that they drive on the road.

[kiwik]

Right now a litre is $1.29 CDN here. That translates to $4.82 CDN per US gallon, or $5.85CDN per UK gallon.

 

I live in the relative middle of relative nowhere and so use a vehicle on a daily basis. We do not pay nearly the same price as in European nations, but do pay significantly higher than in the US. We also have a far higher minimum wage and free healthcare.

 

Yes, you do get used to it, but I recognize the benefits of those offsets in that equation. Americans do not have the personal security we enjoy and so I can sympathize with how the much higher gas prices would hit many of them much harder than they do us.

Ours (NZ) is about $2.29 I think at the moment (it changes frequently). About 45% is tax some of which goes to roads both national and local and some is ACC levies (accident compensation which we have instead of the right to sue) and some is gst (goods and services tax). If you live somewhere with a dense population increasing petrol costs may result in better public transport. I would be seriously limited as a solo working mother in my current location though without a car although I have done so in the past.

[Jane in NC]

On a (sort of) related note, the Associated Press had an article on cargo bikes this week.

[Luanne]

I don't know why anyone would be in favor of this unless you live in Europe and for some reason have a vendetta against the United States.  I also don't know why polls need to be public.  What difference does it make who votes what?  I'm not voting in public polls ... not to mention the fact that I think the price of fuel in the United States is high enough already.  I can barely afford it as it is.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Good point.  Not everyone who came to America did so for the adventure.  Many were forced here by famine, poverty, or slavery. And society has changed a lot over the past few hundred years.  

 

Definitely, which is why no single theory will explain/work on a population of 300 million spread across 3000 miles.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Why do we need new houses if the population isn't growing? Partly because it's a tourist area, so lots of people have summer or winter homes here even though they aren't year-round residents. Partly because people would prefer to build new instead of live in an older home. Partly because homes in the village center are converted to hair salons, attorney's offices, gift shops for the tourists, etc.

 

We encountered this when buying our old house.  There seems to be a population of buyers only interested in new homes -- those staples-together envelopes with thin walls and loud pipes that won't be here in 100 years.  That's one reason I can no longer tolerate watching House Hunters -- all the whining about master suites.  Grrrrrr.  I live in 1100 sqf that's 90 years old with one upstairs bathroom.  Shut up, already. :banghead:

[Melinda in VT]

We encountered this when buying our old house.  There seems to be a population of buyers only interested in new homes -- those staples-together envelopes with thin walls and loud pipes that won't be here in 100 years.  That's one reason I can no longer tolerate watching House Hunters -- all the whining about master suites.  Grrrrrr.  I live in 1100 sqf that's 90 years old with one upstairs bathroom.  Shut up, already. :banghead:

 

I prefer a home with a bathroom attached to a bedroom designed for two adults, but I've had one in only one of the five homes DH and I have lived in, so clearly it's not a buying priority for us. And I think the amount of space devoted to most master bathrooms and bedrooms is crazy. I do not need a walk-in closet the size of my childhood bedroom, let alone two of them. And I would prefer not to have a tub in the master bath, thank you very much.

 

Take that space and create a home office, or another small bedroom for an introverted child, or a reading nook off the hall. Or, you know, just make the house smaller. :-)

[Χά�ων]

European gas prices would be the death knell for small American farmers--you know, the ones we all say we're going to support instead of mega-agriculture. Yeah, my 1940's-50's tractors aren't terribly fuel efficient, but they're paid for and I can't afford 5 new tractors at $50,000 a pop. Whatever happened to the "reduce, reuse, recycle" push? I'm reusing old equipment.

 

Ride the bus to town? What bus? There is none here. There IS a ski bus, but we have to get to town to take it. And it only goes to the ski area.

 

Bike to town? We got a foot of snow today and it will be -20 in another hour. That's a recipe for someone freezing to death. Just got an email from the U of WY that they're offering rides to campus for the next few days, because the wind chill will be -50. It will be -29 WITHOUT wind chill tomorrow.

 

Europeans just don't get USA distances. My dd has to see the doctor tomorrow. It will be a MINIMUM of a six hour drive. There is no other doctor that does her surgery. And she can't drive herself, so dh will drive her to Denver, then Laramie and THEN drive home. This is just for a 15 minute doctor appointment. It's not like she can pop down to the olde family doc just down the street. Sorry, guys, but we don't live in little villages with everything we need. The West never did have that.

I agree with you. There is no bus out here. Not likely ever to be. I am not against walking to town except for the very aggressive dog on the corner that attacks my car and would eat me alive if I tried. DS can't ride a bike due to his hips and cannot be out in the cold even with as warmly as I dress him. 

 

We are not that far away from his specialist, but still, what he has cannot be handled by the town doctor. I was lucky that the children's hospital has a doctor who specializes in what he has or I would have to drive 4 hours each way. If she retires or moves, I will have to make the drive. If we went back to a place in time where transportation was a horse, stagecoach or train, my son would die a slow and painful death. 

 

My nearish town (15 miles to the south) doesn't even have a pharmacy. 

 

On my dirt road the worst vehicle for fuel economy is the minivan's that larger families have. The only time they drive it is when they have to take the entire family someplace. The vast majority of cars are small compact, fuel efficient cars. The trucks are driven only for work on the farm or to town to get supplies that do not fit in the car. Those who have the massive trucks, only drive them when they need the horsepower. No one drives an escalade, a hummer or any other status vehicle out here and the guys in town think they are the dumbest things ever invited. 

 

Maybe those in the city and suburbs could learn something from those of use who live rural. 

 

Making life hell for those who live rural is not the solution. 

[Audrey]

We encountered this when buying our old house.  There seems to be a population of buyers only interested in new homes -- those staples-together envelopes with thin walls and loud pipes that won't be here in 100 years.  That's one reason I can no longer tolerate watching House Hunters -- all the whining about master suites.  Grrrrrr.  I live in 1100 sqf that's 90 years old with one upstairs bathroom.  Shut up, already. :banghead:

 

I would love your house.  Our farmhouse is not much bigger than that, but its original occupants were a family with 14 children.  We are a family of 3.  Relatively speaking, I have the spatial equivalent of a  wing of Buckingham palace. :lol:  There is one (obviously after-modeled) bathroom (and one toilet in the basement, but that's the cats').  I love it.  It has character, a real style and an undeniable warm vibe that is almost palpable.  It's also as sturdy as I've ever encountered and will probably be standing another 120 years from now.  I can count many similar homes in the nearby towns as well.  70, 80, 90, 100+ years old and they are still going strong.

 

The "big-ass garage-facing-the-street-with-a-tissue-box-house-behind-it" homes that are new builds are... eyesores... and jokes... the joke being how much is spent putting up what is essentially an inferior pile of crap that isn't nearly as nice as the older home the people left to build the new one.  But, they are usually younger couples building with daddy's farm sale retirement money.  They're spoiled and stupid.  Always a poor combination for anything.

[Audrey]

I agree with you. There is no bus out here. Not likely ever to be. I am not against walking to town except for the very aggressive dog on the corner that attacks my car and would eat me alive if I tried. DS can't ride a bike due to his hips and cannot be out in the cold even with as warmly as I dress him. 

 

We are not that far away from his specialist, but still, what he has cannot be handled by the town doctor. I was lucky that the children's hospital has a doctor who specializes in what he has or I would have to drive 4 hours each way. If she retires or moves, I will have to make the drive. If we went back to a place in time where transportation was a horse, stagecoach or train, my son would die a slow and painful death. 

 

My nearish town (15 miles to the south) doesn't even have a pharmacy. 

 

On my dirt road the worst vehicle for fuel economy is the minivan's that larger families have. The only time they drive it is when they have to take the entire family someplace. The vast majority of cars are small compact, fuel efficient cars. The trucks are driven only for work on the farm or to town to get supplies that do not fit in the car. Those who have the massive trucks, only drive them when they need the horsepower. No one drives an escalade, a hummer or any other status vehicle out here and the guys in town think they are the dumbest things ever invited. 

 

Maybe those in the city and suburbs could learn something from those of use who live rural. 

 

Making life hell for those who live rural is not the solution. 

 

 

I agree with much of this, but it isn't an "all or nothing" scenario, even for those of us who live very rural existences.  Even with fuel prices quite high right now, few people's routines have changed.  Those who do drive the super-cab F-150s or the 250s (because it's Ford or die out here) will still drive them.  I do know one couple who drive a Hummer.  They get very dirty looks all the time, but I'm not sure if it's because of the Hummer or because they're both outrageously egregious a$$holes.

 

Those who use more modest and thoughtful transportation still do, as well.  It means not making a trip to town every day for little things, but saving it for a big run.  It means not running off to the big town to "just for fun or because you're bored," but rather planning a monthly run or less.

 

I would venture that anywhere fuel costs are a painful financial consideration, whether it be rural or urban, people will take measures to adapt -- if they are smart.  The reality is that whether the US prices rise to European levels or not, they will rise, period, and people will have to adapt.  Even now, fuel is a prohibitive cost for many people to incur.  That will only increase.  The only question is: what will people do to adapt?

[Lolly]

Question for those who advocate biking to work. I know other countries do it, but dh has tried it. The roads aren't so much of a problem. His problem is that after he gets to work on his bike, he is in sore need of a shower and a fresh change of clothes. No way could he function successfully in his job after that ride to work. Do people who bike to work have a shower facility to utilize? Do they have a closet where they are able to keep their work clothes? A baby wipe isn't going to cut it. I am asking in all seriousness. 

 

 

[VeganCupcake]

Question for those who advocate biking to work. I know other countries do it, but dh has tried it. The roads aren't so much of a problem. His problem is that after he gets to work on his bike, he is in sore need of a shower and a fresh change of clothes. No way could he function successfully in his job after that ride to work. Do people who bike to work have a shower facility to utilize? Do they have a closet where they are able to keep their work clothes? A baby wipe isn't going to cut it. I am asking in all seriousness. 

 

My DH's office building has showers (and an in-house gym) and lockers. They also have a large indoor bike storage area. They are a huge multinational company, though.

[Julie Smith]

Question for those who advocate biking to work. I know other countries do it, but dh has tried it. The roads aren't so much of a problem. His problem is that after he gets to work on his bike, he is in sore need of a shower and a fresh change of clothes. No way could he function successfully in his job after that ride to work. Do people who bike to work have a shower facility to utilize? Do they have a closet where they are able to keep their work clothes? A baby wipe isn't going to cut it. I am asking in all seriousness. 

 

My husbands did. (before major changes, layoffs...)

 

But a wipe cuts it for him since it's a 2.5Km bike ride through a park. So he isn't bike hard, or far. 

[mommaduck]

Question for those who advocate biking to work. I know other countries do it, but dh has tried it. The roads aren't so much of a problem. His problem is that after he gets to work on his bike, he is in sore need of a shower and a fresh change of clothes. No way could he function successfully in his job after that ride to work. Do people who bike to work have a shower facility to utilize? Do they have a closet where they are able to keep their work clothes? A baby wipe isn't going to cut it. I am asking in all seriousness. 

Even when my husband was doing other kinds of work, there is no way he could bike. In St. Louis, it was a near two hour drive by car! His knees are shot and he can't bike far...especially not on hills like there are in PA. Oh and the grocery here is 30min by car here on roads not safe for bicycles. Honestly, there are people and places that can use bicycles, but not everyone can.

[Catwoman]

We encountered this when buying our old house.  There seems to be a population of buyers only interested in new homes -- those staples-together envelopes with thin walls and loud pipes that won't be here in 100 years.  That's one reason I can no longer tolerate watching House Hunters -- all the whining about master suites.  Grrrrrr.  I live in 1100 sqf that's 90 years old with one upstairs bathroom.  Shut up, already. :banghead:

In all fairness, a lot of older homes were poorly built, as well, and some of the homes that started out as well-constructed haven't been well-maintained over the years, so you can buy a real nightmare if you're not careful.

 

Certainly, many new homes are cheaply built, but there are high quality new homes available if you know what to look for. The trick is to not let yourself get sucked into the curb appeal to the point where you forget to check on the important stuff.

 

That said, the House Hunters people annoy me, too. They have a list a mile long of things they can't possibly live without in their very first home, and of course, it has to be their Forever Home, too... but their budget is about eleven dollars. And they're unwilling to compromise because, you know, they're in their 20's now and have worked so very, very hard and have sacrificed so, so much, and they feel they've earned the right to own that super-special Dream Home. :rolleyes:

 

I seriously want to smack some sense into some of those people!!!

[Mrs Mungo]

Even when my husband was doing other kinds of work, there is no way he could bike. In St. Louis, it was a near two hour drive by car! His knees are shot and he can't bike far...especially not on hills like there are in PA. Oh and the grocery here is 30min by car here on roads not safe for bicycles. Honestly, there are people and places that can use bicycles, but not everyone can.

Again, this ignores the fact that oil is a non-renewable resource and will not always be cheap and/or plentiful. This type of lifestyle is very *new*, not old, and it won't last forever.

[Mergath]

Question for those who advocate biking to work. I know other countries do it, but dh has tried it. The roads aren't so much of a problem. His problem is that after he gets to work on his bike, he is in sore need of a shower and a fresh change of clothes. No way could he function successfully in his job after that ride to work. Do people who bike to work have a shower facility to utilize? Do they have a closet where they are able to keep their work clothes? A baby wipe isn't going to cut it. I am asking in all seriousness. 

 

I think you have to give yourself enough time so that you're not frantically powering down the road to work (or wherever).  I bike a ton whenever there's no snow on the ground, and as long as I take my time and bike at a fairly leisurely pace (and assuming it's not a hundred degrees out) the sweat factor is minimal.

[SKL]

That's a good point about one's condition when one reaches work on a bike.  When I was a high school / college student, I frequently rode my bike to destinations in a 5-mile radius.  I learned that riding in the rain doesn't leave a great impression when you arrive, LOL.  Also, some of my jobs were night jobs, and bike riding at those times isn't smart.

 

There are other ways that fuel usage has been and can be cut.  Telecommuting, online transactions, online reading resources (reducing the usage of resources for producing printed matter), smarter shipping management, improved food preservation (so one can go longer between grocery trips), reduced packaging, better building insulation, etc., etc.  Things are changing all the time, and not always for the worse.

[Lolly]

I think you have to give yourself enough time so that you're not frantically powering down the road to work (or wherever).  I bike a ton whenever there's no snow on the ground, and as long as I take my time and bike at a fairly leisurely pace (and assuming it's not a hundred degrees out) the sweat factor is minimal.

Considering he leaves at 5:30 now... Biking a pace that isn't sweat inducing isn't much of an option for someone who has a distance to cover and doesn't have all day. And, we live in the South. The sweat factor is an issue almost all of the year. Snow, that isn't much of a problem. No way I would get on these roads on a bike if it has snowed or iced. The danger from cars then would be immense, even if there was a bike lane. Rain in the winter is more of a problem. Guess he can shower on his way to work! If he doesn't get pneumonia from the extremely cold rain every single day, he might be okay! (I know cold and wet don't carry disease, but it does lower your ability to fight them off. This is in my head cause I just walked the dog as it was changing from a drizzle to sleet and snow!!! Dog got a very short walk.) Now, to install a closet and changing room for him. Actually, back when he tried biking to work on the days he could, he did purchase a plastic closet thingy for his office. It simply wouldn't work. He needs to be fresh for meetings. 

 

Honestly, if it came down to it, he could bike to work. It isn't something that would be done unless gas did become a real issue. But, then his job requires travel most days of the week. No way he can bike those distances (though he has done a 100 mile race in the mountains before), especially considering the things he has to carry in the trunk or van with him. Honestly, a horse would be a much better solution for him. But, those tend to be pretty slow too when actually used as transportation. IF gas does become a real issue, his job will simply be gone. 

[poppy]

I've had a gym facility or at least showers in every building I've ever worked in. But, big company in the city. I'm sure it's not the norm in smaller places.

[8circles]

I think the point is that for many people, you can't just change one thing - like start biking to work.  One change necessitates another change & then another, etc.  We have to be willing to change our entire lifestyles to a degree and it won't be easy.  I'm willing & I actually think many people are - but I don't know how to go about it.  We already do what we can, I think, but we are constantly evaluating to see what else we can change.

 

Getting rid of cars or biking instead would require us to move and/or DH get a job closer to home (currently 45 min commute one-way).  And right now I don't think that would be a smart decision.  So we combine as many trips as we can & take public transportation when possible.   & support planning measures in our area that move us all closer to the goal.

 

ETA:  I wanted to make the point that while we are doing what we can, we know it isn't much and it feels like we're doing nothing.  It's discouraging. 

[Ravin]

We have red-light cameras in out city, and they are a topic of contention. The objections are not about freedom. They are about the fact that they are run by a private company that profits by giving out as many tickets as possible but doesn't regularly maintain the cameras, so their calibrations become less accurate over time. The other problem is that, when we are accused of a crime, we have a right to confront our accuser. That is not the case with the speed cameras. The only way to dispute a ticket is through a liaison at the sheriff's office, not in a court of law, and there is no way to directly confront the accuser (the company that runs the cameras). Plus, the fee to process the dispute is higher than the ticket, so even if you win, you lose.

The right to confront doesn't apply I think if it's a civil citation and not a criminal charge. And if they use the camera evidence for a criminal charge., they have to jump through a bunch of evidentiary standards hoops to use it, including expert testimony to query on cross examination about the calibration, etc.

 

We had fixed speeding cameras for a while and they were controversial and expensive and there were a lot of disputes and problems over them. Now they still have the red light cameras, but mobile speeding camera units with a live office who can give testimony I'd needed operating them.

[Jane in NC]

Another rabbit trail, folks.  I was googling some sewing projects and encountered this post on winter cycling outfits.  I know, I know. This is not going to work for many of you but I thought I would share one woman's strategy.

[SKL]

LOL.  On the day I had a lot of back-and-forth on this thread, I then had to go get my kids at school.  Of course it's alreay dark at that hour in winter (5:45pm) but on that day, it was starting to blizzard.  I was thinking of this thread and laughing, imagining myself biking through a blizzard on a cold, dark night.  That night we met some folks for dinner and then I was driving home.  By then the roads were slick ice.  Again, trying to imagine doing that on a bicycle.  With the kids.  Not happening.  We would have to give up so many things if we didn't drive, the economy would be horrific, and a lot of people wouldn't get legitimate needs met.  We need R&D to come up with more efficient designs, but R&D flourishes when things are good, not so much when basic needs aren't being met.  And R&D is making things more efficient, gradually.  Give the devil his due, I say.

[Jane in NC]

LOL.  On the day I had a lot of back-and-forth on this thread, I then had to go get my kids at school.  Of course it's alreay dark at that hour in winter (5:45pm) but on that day, it was starting to blizzard.  I was thinking of this thread and laughing, imagining myself biking through a blizzard on a cold, dark night.  That night we met some folks for dinner and then I was driving home.  By then the roads were slick ice.  Again, trying to imagine doing that on a bicycle.  With the kids.  Not happening.  We would have to give up so many things if we didn't drive, the economy would be horrific, and a lot of people wouldn't get legitimate needs met.  We need R&D to come up with more efficient designs, but R&D flourishes when things are good, not so much when basic needs aren't being met.  And R&D is making things more efficient, gradually.  Give the devil his due, I say.

 

For the millionth time, bicycles may not work in many US communities because of the nature of the communities, i.e. sprawl.  Some of us are envisioning different sorts of urban planning and land use that would facilitate transportation other than cars.

 

Frankly, cars are not safe on ice.  There is an illusion of safety but ice can be deadly.  Unfortunately I know this first hand.

 

[Lolly]

For the millionth time, bicycles may not work in many US communities because of the nature of the communities, i.e. sprawl.  Some of us are envisioning different sorts of urban planning and land use that would facilitate transportation other than cars.

 

Frankly, cars are not safe on ice.  There is an illusion of safety but ice can be deadly.  Unfortunately I know this first hand.

 

 

Bikes on ice: I am more concerned with the cars sliding into the bike. The risk of injury is far less for someone protected by a car's frame than for someone on a bike. Transportation other than cars would be nice, but very difficult to pay for and way off. A bike is a here and now possibility.

[Haiku]

That night we met some folks for dinner and then I was driving home.  By then the roads were slick ice.  Again, trying to imagine doing that on a bicycle.  With the kids.  Not happening.  We would have to give up so many things if we didn't drive, the economy would be horrific, and a lot of people wouldn't get legitimate needs met.  

 

And yet, amazingly, people in Sweden, Finland, Norway, Alaska, and other cold places manage to have modern lives and lifestyles without complete dependence on cars and gasoline.

[umsami]

I've lived in cities with great public transportation (DC and NYC….and Paris and St. Gallen, Switzerland) and I've lived in cities with horrific public transportation.   While I understand that there might be some desire to do this in certain areas to reduce car traffic, I think they need to put good public transportation in place first.  It's its own incentive.  For example, I could either take the subway when I lived in Brooklyn into the city…or I could drive our car.  Driving the car was a pain, major traffic, and involved usually paying for parking…plus having to search for parking when we got back.  Not worth the effort.  The subway was a few bucks, easy and direct, no problems.  Same with DC.

 

Also…we're totally different population-density wise than Europe.

 

 

[SKL]

And yet, amazingly, people in Sweden, Finland, Norway, Alaska, and other cold places manage to have modern lives and lifestyles without complete dependence on cars and gasoline.

 

Well, I don't know what you mean by "complete dependence."  Whatever it is, I don't know if it actually applies to anyone here.  I do know that people drive in those cold places you mentioned.

 

I am talking about the USA where the reality is that for a large % of us, nothing is within reasonable walking distance.  Can't exactly pick up my house and move it closer to my kids' school, the grocery store, or the bus line....  I'm guessing that replacing the homes of the hundreds of millions of people who drive, or providing truly accessible mass transportation, is going to use up some fuel too....

 

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

And yet, amazingly, people in Sweden, Finland, Norway, Alaska, and other cold places manage to have modern lives and lifestyles without complete dependence on cars and gasoline.

 

Americans simply lack imagination.

 

[Haiku]

Well, I don't know what you mean by "complete dependence." 

 

I mean how so many people on this thread claim that their lives would be completely disrupted and miserable if they didn't drive every single place they go. Again, people seem only to be looking at their short-term, self-centered situation and not thinking long-term, big-picture. Primary dependence on fossil fuels will come to an end, and it will happen sooner than we like to think. Life will change, and we will adapt, and people will have to learn to deal with not driving their cars everywhere they choose to go.