Teen son, job, family trip.... help!!!!!

[KungFuPanda]

You know, you'll make him go and when you get there some teen cousin local to your destination will blow off most of the festivities to spend time with her boyfriend . . .or something like that. That's always the way it goes. You'll be livid.

[SailorMom]

You know, you'll make him go and when you get there some teen cousin local to your destination will blow off most of the festivities to spend time with her boyfriend . . .or something like that. That's always the way it goes. You'll be livid.

LOL - he only has one cousin there who is DYING to see him and our other DS.  She is so psyched.  They are the same age.  Already planning on going snowboarding a couple of times if the snow is good and havng a gingerbread house making/decorating party.

Well - two other cousins will be there, but they are less than a year old, lol.

Trust me, the entire CA family will be appalled and hurt if DS doesn't come.  This is a very family oriented family :) 

[Chris in VA]

Ok--I'd like to revise my answer.

 

I would not have him get fired, I'd have him quit.

 

My son was a waiter for a chain company. He had several months of experience, then left the job.

 

IDK how it is in your city--I live in a big area, so it may be very different here--BUT--Here, one need only look at Craigslist to find waiter jobs are a dime a dozen. 

 

A young man with experience as a waiter is a valuable commodity. He does not need a reference from a supervisor. He can get one from an under-supervisor or a co-worker with more experience and perhaps a more senior position. When he applies somewhere else, and they ask why he quit, a truthful answer would be that he had a family obligation and a scheduling conflict, and was temporarily unable to work because of it.

 

So, I'd still have him go.

 

UNLESS--

 

No one went. I would not mind pulling him out of school for two weeks, honestly, and going slightly later, still within the window of the Jerusalem visitors. Yes, it may be considered an unexcused absence, but I have been around public school for a long time, and I have never seen it be an issue, even if the official policy is that you can't make up work. I would simply explain to the counselor and the teachers what the deal is. Emphasis on the deployment/holiday/relative in ill health. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 It's normal for minors to be expected to travel with family for 14 day trips.

 

14 day trips are not that common, so no, an employer shouldn't be expected to accommodate them.

[KungFuPanda]

Ok--I'd like to revise my answer.

 

I would not have him get fired, I'd have him quit.

 

My son was a waiter for a chain company. He had several months of experience, then left the job.

 

IDK how it is in your city--I live in a big area, so it may be very different here--BUT--Here, one need only look at Craigslist to find waiter jobs are a dime a dozen.

 

A young man with experience as a waiter is a valuable commodity. He does not need a reference from a supervisor. He can get one from an under-supervisor or a co-worker with more experience and perhaps a more senior position. When he applies somewhere else, and they ask why he quit, a truthful answer would be that he had a family obligation and a scheduling conflict, and was temporarily unable to work because of it.

 

So, I'd still have him go.

 

UNLESS--

 

No one went. I would not mind pulling him out of school for two weeks, honestly, and going slightly later, still within the window of the Jerusalem visitors. Yes, it may be considered an unexcused absence, but I have been around public school for a long time, and I have never seen it be an issue, even if the official policy is that you can't make up work. I would simply explain to the counselor and the teachers what the deal is. Emphasis on the deployment/holiday/relative in ill health.

If this kid's school is like my daughter's, this is a bad idea. The workload that today's Juniors have is mind-boggling. Unexcused absences come with zero time to make up the work and can kill a kid's GPA.

 

Besides, the Dad won't be able to change his leave dates on a whim.

[Susan C.]

I would ask him to be willing to leave the job if they don't give him leave. Its a teen job. Teens (and reliable ones) leave their jobs all the time. Its a part time, no benefit job, and they are being jerks about it (if they don't give him the time). I can see him wanting to dig in, but when he looks back, he will think it was silly to stay and work that instead of being with extended family.

[Kim in Appalachia]

I'll chime in, only because I remember being there.  My mom pressured me a few times when I was a teenager about my job.  She got angry when I had to work holidays (Easter, Thanksgiving), and angry when I couldn't get off for a cousin's wedding, or if I couldn't make every family vacation or obligation.  She was constantly telling me to just quit, that the money wasn't worth it. it was just Kmart, there were better jobs, etc...  It drove me nuts.  She didn't understand, that it was MY job.  It was MY life. 

 

Your son is 17.  Honestly, this should be his decision.  And if I was that upset that he would be alone for Christmas (which I would be) I would change my trip to leave after Christmas, or fly him out no matter the cost.  

 

Just my 2 cents.  

[StephanieZ]

IMHO, at 17, you should allow him to make the choice. He is nearly an adult, and having a job is an adult responsibility.

 

A good job is hard to come by -- especially for a teen. Yes, he might need to work at a loss for those weeks. However, if he is in town and ready to work, he might well be able to get some extra shifts. There might be OT or holiday differential pay as well. Most importantly, he'll have proven himself a team player and a reliable employee. If he wants a job long term, he/you need to suck it up and fulfill his responsibility there. Maybe he can also do some extra school work, or some home projects for you (to help pay off the plane ticket???)

 

FWIW, personally, I recommend against your dh going to the place of employment in uniform. I think it is very inappropriate for your husband to use his military uniform/status to influence a private employer. If someone took that as extortion or undue pressure, that could be very bad. As an employer (of many college kids and the occasional high-schooler in addition to adults), which I am, I'd be offended and astonished if someone did that to us. In fact, I'd be freaked out enough to take the first chance I got to get rid of the employee -- as I'd consider it an abuse of the uniform and possibly an attempt at intimidation or extortion. If I were "on my toes", I'd call out the dad right then by asking him why he was there discussing a private employment matter in his uniform . ..  "Are you on your way to an official event? Why are you wearing that uniform here? What message are you trying to send me by wearing your uniform right now?" More likely, I'd be simply too startled to put those reactions in words. But, later, once he was gone, I'd be steaming, angry, and it would most likely come out negatively towards the employee whose family member did that. And, definitely, if the dad were the least little bit confrontational or scary in his uniform (as it is easy to be interpreted, no matter the intentions . . . as you never know what negative or frightened reactions you might get . . .), then I'd be on the phone lodging a complaint to my local sheriff and/or local base as soon as the door hit the dad on his way out. 

 

All that said, I have total sympathy for you. Our teens work, too, and we routinely "take a loss" as a family or as the parents (driving, missing events, etc) for them to work. I decided that it is worth it to me to take those losses in order for the kids to learn the valuable life lessons they gain from work. Some days I regret those decisions, lol. But, I have faith that, in the big picture, it is worth it. When my 14yo wanted a "regular job" with more hours than the occasional music gigs he already did, I was glad when dh was able to hire him at our business, as I did NOT want a job schedule interfering with my life to the extent that a 10 hr/wk regular job would  . . . It would be a total PITA and travel/holiday plans would be the worst aspect. I avoided that problem with a tad of nepotism and the favoritism/flexibility involved in that. So, really, it is not that I don't have sympathy. I totally do, and I'd hate to be in your shoes right now making this hard sacrifice (rock/hard place). I just think you've got to suck it up if you want him to have a job at all. Which I think you do.

 

All that said, as an employer, I will also tell you that there is some chance that your son will NOT actually get fired right now for this unavailability. We require all employees to be available for all holidays, etc, and if asked if someone could take a bunch of poorly timed days off, we'd say no, absolutely not. . . . but, in reality, occasionally someone requests off a ridiculous amount of time at a terrible season (as your son is doing), and, sometimes, we let it slide. It *does* factor in to our appraisal/review of the employee, and, if it recurs, we will generally become less inclined to keep the employee around, give them raises, etc . . .but, if they are otherwise a great employee, we often don't fire them on the spot. So, there is some hope that your son might retain his job even after this event. However, it *WILL* most likely hurt his prospects there, at least for a year or two, until they have forgotten this episode and he has not repeated it. And, also, I admit that teens/college kids get a lot more sympathy/flexibility from us over holidays than any other "full grown" employee. We unofficially give them a lot more holiday time off than most employees . . . and also bribe our "grown up" employees with good holiday differential pay to cover the shifts of those college kids, because I can't bring myself to keep them in town over holidays if we can at all help it. So, most likely, his employer might also have more sympathy for him than you'd expect.

 

Also, FWIW, this is a reason I'd suggest coaching kids to avoid retail and similar jobs that are open/busy for the holidays.

 

So, anyway, if I were you, I'd cough up the $600 for the plane ticket for your son to share some of the holiday with you, and then I'd let him stay home for as much of the holiday break as he wants/needs to. (Unless you have some reason not to trust him alone in your home . . . but if he is a "good kid" and pretty trustworthy, I'd chance it.)

 

 

[SailorMom]

I wish we could go at another time.  I actually hate traveling for the holidays.  Would much rather just be home, but the Jerusalem family will only be here right at XMas basically. 

As for school - yeah - we will do 4 or 5 days (and have about once a year since he went back to PS), but he's taking three AP classes and an honors class (in addition to ROTC and auto shop which he could miss without a problem).  There is no way he can miss two weeks of those classes.  He'd be sooooo far behind.  Especially in AP Chemistry.

Kim - I totally understand.  I had to work X-Mas eve in high school and it drove my mom nuts - and I did resent her for that.  BGut - we lived in the same city/state as all of our relatives and saw them constantly.  It isn't so much about working holidays, it's seeing the relatives we rarely get to see....

 

I talked to DH at length again tonight.  He still thinks that because it is a low paying, easy to replace job, it would be the wrong choice to stay here or alter our plans for it.  I mean, don't get me wrong - we're really trying to alter them in some way to make this work, and if we can find a solution, we'll take it, lol, but so far nothing we've come up with will work. 

 

I have to say - if it wasn't for the two great danes, things would be easier....  It would cost us a fortune to even board them for a week, let alone two.  We were thinking maybe of going out for only a week and eating the cost of the plane tickets, but you add the boarding in and ouch!!!  We just can't swing it.  If we'd been here longer, or knew people here better, we could maybe find a place for them to stay - but everyone we know is leaving town as well. 

 

I just tried to find plane tickets cheaper, but no matter what dates I put in I get about $660 per ticket.  That's like - almost $2700 for the 4 of us.  Sigh.  Around here, boarding two dogs that size for a week is about $1000.  So - going for less time right after Christmas will cost us almost 3 times as much as all 4 going with the dogs for 2 weeks driving.  And with the long drive there and back, staying for less than 2 weeks is just not feasible (it's 1566 miles... one way; 3120 miles round trip).

 

We could possibly just fly him out for some of the trip - but, he'd be flying out for Christmas, which is the biggest issue.  My MiL is a Methodist pastor and we'll be going to Christmas Eve service at her church,,,,  I think she'd be so upset if we were there without him.  I keep trying to wrangle possible shifts in days, but Xmas itself is so sticky.   

 

Dh and I discussed having DS not go out at all.  We'd stay here until sometime around the 27th, go only for a week.  DS would stay here with the dogs.  so - only 3 plane tickets and no dog boarding - which would be only a little bit less time and money.  But - then Kyle wouldn't see any of his family in CA.... we're back to that again.

 

As far as just "eating" or "coming up" with the extra money - I know most of us around these forums realizes that that is far easier said than done.....

[Aelwydd]

BTW - my DH was fired from about 5 jobs in high school for one reason or another, lol. I'm not saying it's ok - and certainly DS isn't going that direction, but it didn't affect DH's employment long term.

Your dh wasn't contending with the same economy as your ds and other young adults face nowadays. Even minimum wage jobs aren't a dime a dozen anymore.

 

These days, employers generally aren't very flexible. Why would they be, with the abundance of cheap labor?

 

With the additional information, if you are absolutely set on him going with you, I would have him put his notice in.

 

IMO, he is not so much a minor, as he is an adult, sans a few months or so. He should be permitted to make his own decision.

[SailorMom]

Well - he just turned 17 a few days ago - so more than a few months before he's an adult - and he's a junior  - not a senior - so he has almost 2 more years here at home. 

 

I do agree about the economy, Rebekah - it's cruddy.  And it is a lot harder to get hired under-18 because so many places have liability insurance issues now...

If we were making him use his pay for life necessities I don't think we could ask him to lost the job.  I guess I'm more on the fence because he uses the money for his own entertainment (and gas, I guess, but he uses our gas as well) and not for bills.  So - him being out a job for a few months won't really hurt him in that way.

I do agree that if this will really come down this way, he should go ahead and put in his 2 weeks notice and give the people there a chance to rehire well before Xmas.....

[Catwoman]

I would cancel the trip before I spent Christmas away from my ds.

 

I'm sure the family members who are coming from Jerusalem are lovely people, but IMO, they aren't as important as your son.

 

Is there any way they could make the trip to visit you and stay a few days before they go back to Jerusalem?

 

Ordinarily, I would just have the kid quit the job, but it sounds like he has already sacrificed a lot to move to a new place, so in your situation, I would sacrifice the family trip to make him happy.

[Haiku]

I do admire your son's commitment to his job. Many teens do not have this kind of work ethic. 

 

Businesses that hire teens must understand they are are still legally under their parents' care and control and will not always be available for work, especially during the holidays. I find it disgusting that a job that likes him as much as they say they do would threaten to fire him for needing to go with his family on a holiday. Blanket policies of "no time off during the holidays" indicate an understaffed and poorly managed business.

 

On the other hand, I, as a parent, would be willing to work with the business to come up with a reasonable amount of time that we could be gone so that it doesn't leave the business in a bind. I believe you said you would be gone two weeks. That is a long time for a job to be down an employee. I would imagine your son would need to be willing to work extra shifts before and after the trip to compensate employees who pick up the slack for him.

 

How long ago did your son give notice that he would need the time off?

 

In the end, I would make my child come with me. I resist the increasing encroachment of employment into family life. Many businesses no longer respect that employees have any life outside their job.

[Shamzanne]

Even if you reduced your trip to a week long your son might not be able to get the time off during the holidays. I think you should ask your son to quit his job. I would talk to him about approaching management and telling them how much he enjoys his job but that his family has decided he can't miss the family reunion/holiday. I would have him tell them that he would love to be rehired in the future, or at the least, given a good recommendation. Any employer who wouldn't honor that is someone I wouldn't want to work for.

 

I feel for you being in this situation. But, it's not as if you are asking him to spend two weeks doing something he hates. He will have a great time and down the road he will understand. Putting people first is as good a lesson as sticking with a job.

 

Honestly, if my family member chose not to attend something like this due to a part time minimum wage job at Red Lobster I would be offended. Especially considering the income is not vital.

[SailorMom]

Even if you reduced your trip to a week long your son might not be able to get the time off during the holidays. I think you should ask your son to quit his job. I would talk to him about approaching management and telling them how much he enjoys his job but that his family has decided he can't miss the family reunion/holiday. I would have him tell them that he would love to be rehired in the future, or at the least, given a good recommendation. Any employer who wouldn't honor that is someone I wouldn't want to work for.

 

I feel for you being in this situation. But, it's not as if you are asking him to spend two weeks doing something he hates. He will have a great time and down the road he will understand. Putting people first is as good a lesson as sticking with a job.

 

Honestly, if my family member chose not to attend something like this due to a part time minimum wage job  I would be offended. Especially considering the income is not vital.

Yeah - I'm thinking he needs to do that.  I think even a week at the holidays is an issue, so a shorter trip won't change much. 

 

I also want to add that 'work the holidays or fired' policy was not directed at him personally, but at the larger group as they seem to be getting a lot of requests - it isn't like anyone was singling him out.  I can totally understand the problem employers have with that. 

 

I do think that if he was out of the house, on his own, and actually needed the income this would be a very different story.  That's part of why I think it is so important he goes now.  In 2 years he'll be out of high school and won't be able to risk losing a job like he can now....

[ksr5377]

Just chiming in again to agree with a PP.  Make sure DS does NOT get FIRED, but instead gives his 2 weeks notice if is decided that he'll be going with you.

[Haiku]

I also want to add that 'work the holidays or fired' policy was not directed at him personally, but at the larger group as they seem to be getting a lot of requests

 

Can you believe that audacity of those employees who think they should get to spend some time with family at the holidays?  :glare:

 

ETA: I work for a retail establishment that requires all employees to work Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve, and I do it. But if my employer told me no time off at all during the holidays, I'd be out the door with nary a backward glance. My husband used to work for a company that allowed no time off between Halloween and New Year's because they had a huge advertising project that was always due at the beginning of January. One year he said, "Oh, btw, I will be out of the country for 10 days in November adopting my son, and I will be taking an additional week off when we get home to help everyone get settled." Wisely, they didn't penalize or fire him for this. 

[Chris in VA]

Just trying to think of a way you could free up some $ and buy a plane ticket for your son so he could come for 4 days or so--

 

Could you look into NOT boarding at a facility, but hiring a pet sitter for the time he is not there?  I am in a high priced area for pet sitting (and am a pet sitter/walker) and we charge $65 a night for overnight, stay-at-your-house sitting. That's on the high end. I could find a bonded sitter for around $45 a night w/o much trouble. Or, could you perhaps find someone to come 4X a day to walk/feed? Around here, that would cost about $15 a visit, so about $60 a day. That would free up over $700 and you could use some for the ticket. 

 

Is that a possibility?

 

ETA--I'm trying to find a way to honor his employment, honor your family visitors, honor the value of being together on Christmas (which is MY value--lol!)...I'm Episcopalian. We like to have our cake and eat it, too...

[Joanne]

I think this is representative of a new challenge to your family; parenting a near adult.

 

It's a tricky transition to navigate. ****gently**** I think you are missing some marks. One major one is thinking it is appropriate to intervene with a near adult's job. The money he makes and the relative importance of his role doesn't matter. HE has the job and to have parents involve themselves is developmentally and professionally inappropriate.

 

A life truth in the US today is that families are often geographically scatteried; and families are by definition always aging. Choices of physical presence and logistics are a constant challenge - there is often not a good answer.

 

Psychologically for THIS child, I think it is a major mistake to pressue him to go, to involve yourself in his work and to dishonor what you know to be his wishes.

 

From a "real world" perspective, some businesses rely heavily on certain seasons and have expectations of employees as a result of that. My own young adult son lost his job last year by choosing to call in"sick" at a retail job during before Christmas week.

[In The Great White North]

Do I understand this correctly?  They want him to stay for two weeks so he can work for 12 hours?  ($100 @ $8/hr)  That's ridiculous.  

 

What is it exactly that he likes about this place?

[plansrme]

I have not read all of the replies, so forgive me if this has been mentioned already, but I keep seeing the commentn that your son's visiting his extended family will just get harder as he gets older, has a real job, etc., and I just want to point out that that is not necessarily true.  It may be MUCH easier for him to go see his family alone when he is still young, single and working.  One plane ticket for a long weekend?  Doable.  And a lot more easily than hooking up the travel trailer and the dogs and piling everyone into the camper and driving cross-country for a two week stay.  So let him watch for sale fares and head out there some time alone if he wants to see everyone. 

 

And I would let him stay and keep the dogs.  I might even pay him what I would pay for boarding them, because traveling cross-country with two great danes is not my idea of a fun vacation.

[datgh]

I worked Retail for a few years.  We were always told by corporate no time off November and December or else but when push came to shove if you were an excellent employee with a good reason for not being available it really wasn't a problem with the manager but then I had a manager who appreciated that a great, hard working, dependable employee made his life easier. He also kept up a good relationship with college kids who were past employees who wanted to work over the Holidays.  It was a win/win for everyone. Funny how we always had one of the stores in the state with top sales.  Could it have been because we were happy employees?  I hope when your son talks to the manager he will find he has a boss like I did.

[Murphy101]

14 day trips are not that common, so no, an employer shouldn't be expected to accommodate them.

No, they aren't. However, it is commonly expected that minors will not be left for a week or longer while their family is traveling out of state. Most employers are going to comprehend that the minor usually doesn't have the option to not go on the trip.

 

If this was a good job that gave more hours or had some other incentive, I might reconsider. In fact, we do exactly that. I would go alone with the younger kids to see my family and dh would stay home with the teens. Next year, or maybe the next major holiday, dh would get to spend more time with his family. I don't see the problem with dh not seeing his family this year. Missing one year so you can have a rare extended family get together shouldn't be that big of a deal. I'm sure he will miss them, but I'm presuming it's not like it's rare for him to see them at holidays?

 

We are very hardcore nuclear family stays together at holidays, but I'd make a once a decade exception for him and expect the same if needed for me.

[unsinkable]

My DH recently told me how much he regrets not going with his parents as a teen to family weddings, cookouts, reunions, visits...he mostly missed bc he was working.

 

I know when I was a working teen, parents did come in to talk to managers and advocate for their kids. And the kids got what they wanted. It was the workers w/o parents intervening who picked up the slack. And now, DS says at his job one girl's dad will call and TELL management when his DD will work, etc. The other workers call her the princess, but still, she gets what she wants.

 

Can your DS drive out with you for a week and then fly home alone? And then spring the dogs from the kennel?

[Trish]

Tough dilemma! I have one practical thought and one non-practical one.

 

I know the economy stinks and it's hard to find a good job. BUT! I know it's ALSO hard to find a "great worker," which is what your son sounds like. And the company probably HAS to have a policy of no time off on holidays, otherwise EVERYONE would be taking time off. So I'd risk it. Let your son have a conversation with the manager about the trip, how he hates to have to miss work and would be heartbroken to lose his job, but "has no choice." Family is making him go, granddad is in poor health and this may be his last visit etc. Leave on good terms.

 

After the holiday are done and gone, who is the first person the management would consider hiring back if they have an opening? Hopefully, your son! Simply because he's a great worker. Because believe me, 90 percent of workers are not great. And plenty call in for reasons far less important than your son's.

 

My impractical thought: if you do the right thing, God will bless your family. Whether it's getting this job back, or getting another better job, or some other plan you haven't foreseen, God blesses our efforts to do the right thing. Which is to see the relatives, especially granddad.

 

Good luck whatever you decide!

[elegantlion]

Yup.

 

Well I have seen God at work so I remain committed to my bad theology. Turns out, God is smarter than us, and I'm grateful for some of the wishes of mine that He did not permit.

 

Perhaps you'll receive a mustard seed for Christmas!

 

Perhaps God answered the prayer of this child to find somewhere to fit in in a new city. Maybe God is blessing this employer with a responsible teen whom they value. If God works in mysterious ways, we shouldn't begin to assume all of the "blessings" will be in our favor. 

[Jenny in Florida]

If God works in mysterious ways, we shouldn't begin to assume all of the "blessings" will be in our favor. 

 

Or that we, in our puny human frailty, will recognize the blessing when it arrives in a package we don't expect or think we "want."

[Plateau Mama]

It isn't so much about working holidays, it's seeing the relatives we rarely get to see....

 

I talked to DH at length again tonight. He still thinks that because it is a low paying, easy to replace job, it would be the wrong choice to stay here or alter our plans for it.

 

I have to say - if it wasn't for the two great danes, things would be easier.... It would cost us a fortune to even board them for a week, let alone two. We were thinking maybe of going out for only a week and eating the cost of the plane tickets, but you add the boarding in and ouch!!! We just can't swing it. If we'd been here longer, or knew people here better, we could maybe find a place for them to stay - but everyone we know is leaving town as well.

 

. But - then Kyle wouldn't see any of his family in CA.... we're back to that again.

 

.

But it sounds to me like your son seeing family was important to YOU, not so much to him.

 

I'm going to say it again, you uprooted him (not blaming you), he feels he has nothing (no friends, no hobbies), except this job. By telling him to quit the job because it doesn't matter you are devaluing his feelings. Trust me when I say (again speaking from childhood experience), He may have a good time seeing family, but what he will remember is that his own parents felt others were more important than him.

 

If he doesn't want to go either put him first and cancel the trip for all (which is what I'd do), or let him stay home alone. In the grand scheme of things missing one family reunion want scar him for life. Feeling like your parents don't value you, might.

[Word Nerd]

Can you believe that audacity of those employees who think they should get to spend some time with family at the holidays? :glare:

.

And how many of those same employees would be outraged if they couldn't go shopping on Thanksgiving or go out to eat or see a movie between Christmas and New Year's? I think it's ideal when employers make an effort to accommodate time-off requests over holiday breaks, but almost everyone wants that time off. Some employers may think it's more fair to make a blanket policy for no time off rather than dealing with the headache of coordinating so many conflicting schedules.

[elegantlion]

Employers also have to account for illnesses. Being around more people in general that time of year, more illnesses are spread. So there needs to be some "backup" employees in case someone calls in sick and is actually sick. Also, if the trip is going to extend over the New Years holiday, that's a huge time for restaurants, they may need as much staff as possible. So, in a regular time shuffling schedules is not as hard as during a holiday season when you actually need more people at work at any given time. 

[Joanne]

nm 

 

Edited October 22, 2013 by Moderator
Let it go, please.

[unsinkable]

Wow...

[Callie]

Your husband going  in in uniform seems wrong.  It seems like he is trying to use his military status to get what he wants.  The fact that he is military is totally irrelevant in this situation.

I agree.  It almost seems like bullying.

[vonfirmath]

I would find the money and fly him out for the actual Christmas Day and as much time as they would allow.

It is important for me and a family value for us to be together that day. This year we won't be able to--and it may be quite a long time til we are. If $ were the only thing standing in the way, I'd rejoice and FIND the $. I would forgo just about anything to be able to.  

 

May I ask what sort of job he has that he can't leave for Christmas--what sort of place is open on Christmas? 

 

ETA--I WOULD NOT, absolutely would not, have Dad go in. 

 

I don't know a retail position that allows you to take time off on Christmas.

 

Construction also often has stuff they can only do when other companies/universities are closed over Christmas.

[Murphy101]

nm 

 

Edited October 22, 2013 by Moderator
Let's not call names...

[Callie]

My impractical thought: if you do the right thing, God will bless your family. Whether it's getting this job back, or getting another better job, or some other plan you haven't foreseen, God blesses our efforts to do the right thing. Which is to see the relatives, especially granddad

This is so insulting for those who do the "right thing" and still have struggles.  It is the same narrow minded drivel that Dianne shared a few days ago about karma and people who experience trauma in their lives.  Sickening.

[clarkacademy]

I want to say upfront I am not a military family but this is my opinion. Dad has missed so much of his kids lives by serving our country. Knowing every time he left he may not return. That's fact period. This boy is almost an adult and in my opinion his father deserves the right to ask for special treatment because he is a hero. If it was not for people like him would we have Christmas? Would we have a country? I am not trying to get all stars and stripes but come on. This father has given up so much for strangers and your saying he shouldn't have Christmas with his almost adult son?? All the more reason because the days are terribly long but the years are so fast. Shame on anyone who says a soldier shouldn't have Christmas with his family. That man deserves a hell of a lot more than Christmas in my thoughts. That man deserves a lifetime owed that he gave up. In my opinion when it comes to a soldier and his family he should be given every right to be with them.

 

OP I thank your husband and I hope you all have a wonderful Christmas celebration.

[DianeW88]

This is so insulting for those who do the "right thing" and still have struggles.  It is the same narrow minded drivel that Dianne shared a few days ago about karma and people who experience trauma in their lives.  Sickening.

 

That was not was I was saying in my post at all, and I am sorry that you have interpreted it as such.  Perhaps it wasn't very eloquently worded, but I most certainly do NOT believe that bad things do not happen to good people.  They do...in spades.  Life isn't fair, and unspeakable things happen every single day to the most amazing, generous and wonderful people to ever walk the earth.  And it sucks.

 

As for this post, in the OP's shoes, I would feel like my son's well-being was more important than my extended family.  If the job meant that much to him, and he was not able to get time off, then I would cancel my family Christmas trip and we would all stay home for the holidays. 

 

[Plateau Mama]

. This father has given up so much for strangers and your saying he shouldn't have Christmas with his almost adult son??

I don't see where anyone has said he shouldn't have Christmas with his son. What we are saying is his sons feelings should be taken into consideration. He has given up a lot as well, and unlike his dad, he has no say in the matter.

[SailorMom]

I just want to quickly address the whole dad going in uniform thing again.

 

I think this was very misunderstood.  First - about 40% of this town in military - people in uniform are everywhere.  There is nothing extraordinary about it.  The boss knows we're military, and the only reason for the uniform was as a subtle reminder so that we wouldn't have to point it out... i.e." hey - remember we're a military family and it makes holidays hard", etc.  To even imagine my DH going in there to intimidate or bully is ridiculous, but I guess people here don't know us and can get the wrong idea.  We would also not ask for special favors, but help DS navigate this sort of thing for the first time.

 

As for having a parent intervene, we tend to go to the extreme of the other direction.  But - occasionally - and this will be the first time if he does go in - I think parents should help their kids out.  Our son is so respectful of adult authority he doesn't really stand up for himself.  He needs to learn to balance this, obviously....

 

Anyway - as I've already mentioned, DS asked DH not to go, so DH isn't going.  DS said he'd try to do a better job of explaining the circumstances himself.  DH would never go in there against DS's wishes. 

 

I do appreciate all of the feedback - even the stuff that is very critical of our thoughts on the matter - because it helps me see the issues from all sides.  Honestly, it would never have occurred to me that a man in uniform could be seen as intimidating, threatening, or bullying....  I still can't really wrap my head around it, but obviously that's the case at last for some....

 

As for seeing family- if DS doesn't go this time, it will be at least a year before he sees the Jerusalem family (which will make it 3 years total), and could be about another 9 months to a year for his grandparents.  We do not get to see family often at all.  It's already been a year for the grandparents and two years for everyone else.  With DS back in public school and all of DH's deployments, it is a real pain to travel home at any time.  We just haven't been able to get schedules to work.  DH can't get leave anytime he wants it - it has to work for the squadron needs.  We feel very fortunate he was able to get two weeks off at Christmas.  Not exactly common, lol.

 

 

[SailorMom]

I don't see where anyone has said he shouldn't have Christmas with his son. What we are saying is his sons feelings should be taken into consideration. He has given up a lot as well, and unlike his dad, he has no say in the matter.

 

Uh - we had no say in the matter of moving to this place.  It is considered one of the worst duty stations in the military (in the US). 

We tried very hard to not move our kids, and managed to keep them stable for 8 years, which took quite a lot of sacrifice on my DH's part in terms of career opportunities and advancement. 

Our only option - in order to not move - would have been for DH to separate less than 4 years from retirement.  That would mean losing over 17 years of work towards retirement, our income, or health benefits, etc.

Not much of a choice. 

While it was DH's choice to join the military, don't think we actively chose to move when we did. 

However, my son's feelings are the whole reason I've written this thread.  I'm torn up over it.  I can't - in any way- make everyone happy on this.  I'm also worried about the feelings of all of our in-laws if he chooses not to see them after years of being away.  I'm also worried about how DS will feel when he actually is here alone at Christmas - when it is no longer theoretical.  I'm also worried about how he'll feel about his choice in a few years.....

[Haiku]

Except for in rare families, kids don't have a say in the big life decisions that the parents, who earn the money to provide the family with a home and a living, make. I don't have a problem with that. I am not progressive enough to think that families should be democracies.

 

I also believe that children (and I mean the offspring of the parents, no matter their ages) who are dependent on parents owe it to their parents to respect their parents' wishes and plans. Good parents sacrifice a lot for their kids; they generally sacrifice much more than kids ever do for their families. It is not at all unreasonable to expect a minor child not to be left alone for two weeks and to accompany his parents on an important family trip. Suggesting that a family cancel their long-standing plans to accommodate a child's part-time job is, imo, silly.

 

I realize that others disagree with me.

 

Edited to correct an auto-correct.

[Jenny in Florida]

I just want to quickly address the whole dad going in uniform thing again.

 

I think this was very misunderstood.  First - about 40% of this town in military - people in uniform are everywhere.  There is nothing extraordinary about it.  The boss knows we're military, and the only reason for the uniform was as a subtle reminder so that we wouldn't have to point it out... i.e." hey - remember we're a military family and it makes holidays hard", etc.  To even imagine my DH going in there to intimidate or bully is ridiculous, but I guess people here don't know us and can get the wrong idea.  We would also not ask for special favors, but help DS navigate this sort of thing for the first time.

 

I'm sorry, but the message, "Remember that we're a military family and it makes holidays hard" is clearly intended to imply, "Our holidays are harder than other people's, which means you should be extra nice to our son and give him an opportunity to spend time with his family that your other employers deserve less because they don't happen to have been born into a military family."

 

That is, pretty much, the definition of a special favor.

 

Remember, your son, if he chooses to do so, is welcome to spend the holidays with his family. What he may not be able to do is expect his employer to accept the inconvenience of doing without a good employee during a busy season AND not inconvenience his own family with regard to holiday plans AND keep his job. There is, after all, that saying about eating your cake and having it, too.

 

In my family, we would respect our nearly-adult child's desire to keep his job. (In fact, we've changed family holiday plans for reasons I'm sure many here would find even less "important," because the activities involved were meaningful and valuable to the young person in question, and because those young people are meaningful and valuable to me.) I, personally, think it's insulting to insist that a teen quit a job he loves and values -- especially when it is the only thing he seems to feel that way about -- because it interfered with my travel plans. And, if I were your son, I would be extremely resentful of a parent who forced me into that kind of decision. But I recognize that family dynamics vary.

 

I do absolutely think it is unreasonable for a parent of a teen to attempt to manipulate an employer into granting favors denied to other employees, however, no matter what family values are involved.

[SailorMom]

Jenny, do you live near family?  How many Christmases, birthdays, anniversaries, and holidays has your husband been overseas for?  I'm not being snarky, but you sound almost angry in your post, and we do have very different family dynamics than you do.  If your family holiday plans are visiting people you see often outside of holidays - that right there is very different. ETA:  I'm only bringing up the missed holidays because when someone says, well, there's next year, or whatever, we actually don't know that.  With the current rotation, DH will likely be gone again next December.  The holidays DH has already missed and the ones he will miss in the future do play a role in this decision.

We were not trying to manipulate anyone - we wanted to help our son discuss options with his employer. 

I've very clearly said that we were going to ask if our son could quit at a pre-determined and convenient (for the employer) date and get a letter of recommendation rather than get fired (so that he can get a new job after the holiday season).  I don't see how this is manipulative or asking for favors.  If you do, I'd love to hear why or how.  I really actually would, as I might have blinders on here.  Yes - holidays and visiting family are both very hard for us and the military is the reason why.  We don't expect our son to be treated better or special - but it is a consideration and pretending it isn't kinda shows ignorance of what being in a military family is like for a kid.  You may not like that it makes it harder or that it is different, but it is.

ETA:  I will admit that I'd be thrilled if the employer offered another option that would mean DS would keep his job.  But - we would not ask for that.  We would just ask for the employer to work with us.  And as of right now - DS asked us not to do anything, so we're not.

I've also said that I full respect the employers need to hire someone else and fire our son.  I completely understand their position, and I would never expect to "have my cake and eat it too". 

And - as of yet - we haven't insisted on anything regarding his job.  We're still trying to figure it out.  We fully and completely value the fact that he wants to keep this job.  However, his job is not the only factor that we have to take into consideration.  His feelings are not the only ones in play here.  I'm trying very hard to find a way to balance all the other people and factors that are in play. 

There are a lot of people who would be very hurt by his actions if he choses to stay behind.  He also actually does really want to see his family.  We are very close.  he is just torn by the job issue.  This isn't about him wanting to go - he wants to go.  He has been looking forward to the trip until now.

 

I am asking these as legitimate questions that I am struggling with and would love some others' ideas:

 

Do we - as parents - need to teach him to value those family members' feelings over his own? 

Are his feelings more important?  Are theirs? 

Do we need to be unfair towards him now because we see him regretting his decision later?

Do we let him make a big (in our opinion) mistake regarding his extended family (who he is very close to, and wants to visit, but really hates the idea of losing a job) and let him learn from it?

Do we insist that family is more important, and that sometimes bad decisions have to be made in favor of family?

 

I am going to be looking in to 'at home' dog boarders, as a previous poster suggested, maybe have him fly out for only part of the time and only pay for a week of boarding.... or something.  The problem is, it is Christmas and Christmas eve that would be the real sticking points at work, and I really don't want us to be apart at XMas - which would mean making our trip shorter and would mean 4 plane tickets......not 3 because of all the driving time.

 

Sigh.

 

 

 

 

[J-rap]

You've received a lot of responses!  I've read most, but not all.

 

Things I'd do (or NOT do):

 

I would NOT have my husband go there to talk with them.  Your son is 17, and this is not school.

 

I would evaluate how important this is to my son.  My first choice would be to advise my son to talk with his boss, and explain that this family trip is very important, it's been planned for a long time, relatives will be there from faraway, etc. etc.  He should ALSO say he understands how busy the Christmas season is and that they may not be able to afford employees to ask off.  And so, if they are unable to allow him that time off (and that he understands if they can't), he will need to quit, but wants to do so in plenty of time for them to hire someone else new to train them in before the Christmas rush.  It sounds like he is not making a huge amount anyway ($200 in two weeks?).  Family trips ARE so important,  and hopefully he can find another PT job eventually.

 

But, if it IS very, very important for him to keep it... meaning this is the first good thing that has happened in his life since the move, and it gives him the confidence and connectness he really, really needs right now, and is very much the mental boost he needs in his life, then I would help him make it work.  That might include cutting your trip a little shorter so you're not leaving him home alone as long, and seeing if there is at least 3 days when he COULD get off from work.  Then, try and scrape the money together so that he alone can fly there.

 

Or, it might possibly mean that you all stay home for Christmas, and then you alone (or whoever's family it is? your husband's?) fly there the day after Christmas and spend 4-5 days with them.

 

I would let this be about what's best for you and your family though, and don't worry too much about "so and so being hurt if..." among the relatives.  You can't please everyone!  People are usually understanding.

[Amy in NH]

 I'm also worried about the feelings of all of our in-laws if he chooses not to see them after years of being away.  I'm also worried about how DS will feel when he actually is here alone at Christmas - when it is no longer theoretical.  I'm also worried about how he'll feel about his choice in a few years.....

 

As children mature into adults they have more and more commitments that create impossible choices for them.  The in-laws will have to understand that he can't be there because he has a work commitment.  Am I disappointed when the nieces who we used to see at every family holiday now have to work on Thanksgiving?  Of course.  But I understand that it is a part of growing up so I don't take it personally.  If they are very disappointed, perhaps they could come visit you some time.

 

[SailorMom]

As children mature into adults they have more and more commitments that create impossible choices for them.  The in-laws will have to understand that he can't be there because he has a work commitment.  Am I disappointed when the nieces who we used to see at every family holiday now have to work on Thanksgiving?  Of course.  But I understand that it is a part of growing up so I don't take it personally.  If they are very disappointed, perhaps they could come visit you some time.

 

 

They've all actually been great about visiting us (at least the gma and gpa and the Jerusalem family).  It's kinda our turn, and financially, they can't really manage it right now (adding another visit). 

I get it though - I do.  Gma and Gpa won't get it, though, lol. 

[SailorMom]

JJhat7 - it's my DH's side of the family.  Most of my family have already passed.   I have a couple of aunts and uncles and my kids have a cousin, but we're not really close with any of them.

[5of5]

This is just a side comment (FWIW).

 

Your son has such a low-paying/entry-level job and is such a good worker, that is nearly a certainty that he could get another such job somewhere else and quickly rebuild relationships with new co-workers.

 

I understand that he is feeling that this is the only good thing he has going for him right now, but I doubt that it is irreplaceable. It just feels that way to him now.

[JustEm]

I was in a situation very similar to what your son is in when I was 16.  It was my first real job and I really liked it and I really liked the people there.  I had an important function that EVERYONE had to work at, getting of was not an option for anyone.  This was only a weekend event at work and the thing I wanted to go to was only one day of that weekend.  Attending the event was more important to me than the job so I gave them my 2 weeks notice and told them exactly why I was giving the notice.  Of course before quitting I pleaded my case and tried to get off. When they couldn't allow me to I quit.

 

I think this needs to be a decision your son makes.  If he is responsible enough to stay home by himself for 2 weeks and accept that it means he will be alone on Christmas then let me work.  It shows a lot of character on his part and will be a great learning experience.   If it sinks in to him that being alone on Christmas will suck and that family is more important then any job, good for him.  It should be his decision to make.  

 

Certainly, don't send your dh into your son's workplace to complain to the boss.  That is unprofessional and immature.  He is old enough to work, he should be old enough to handle his own work related issues.