Should I say something? Prayer at public charter homeschool event.

[Veritaserum]

Dh and I attended a concert at our children's public charter homeschooling program last night. It was opened with a prayer. Dh and I both thought that was weird and inappropriate. It's possible that everyone attending last night was the same religion (we live in an area where 70%+ are members of the same faith), but that's an assumption that those in charge had no way to verify. We happen to be of that faith, but I still do not think it was appropriate. I am leaning strongly toward writing a gentle note to point out that there may be non-religious familes or families of other religions that might be uncomfortable with having prayers as part of a publicly-funded event. What would you do?

 

CLARIFICATION & UPDATE:

 

1. A school official asked a parent to give the opening prayer.

2. The prayer was in the specific style of the majority religion and in the name of the majoriy's deity.

3. Many members of this majority religion in my area have a history of excluding people who are not their religion.

4. Although I am a member of the majority religion, I found the prayer to be inappropriate given the public school setting and the history of the community. I do not like the way many members of my faith behave toward "non-members" and I want our community to be more inclusive of everyone.

 

I sent an email to the director of the program, who also directed the concert and introduced the person giving the prayer.

 

SECOND CLARIFICATION:

 

5. There is no indication anywhere that this group is at all religious in nature.

6. I was not "offended." I was concerned by the insensitivity and lack of tact displayed toward those in our community who are not members of our church.

 

UPDATE 2:

 

I got a thank you and an apology. One of the other admins told her it was inappropriate as well. She did it out of habit without thinking. She promised that it wouldn't happen again. :)

Edited April 23, 2012 by Veritaserum

[Jpoy85]

Id leave it. They may have it for a reason. Maybe they like it, maybe they voted on it at one time....Leave it.

[Veritaserum]

Id leave it. They may have it for a reason. Maybe they like it, maybe they voted on it at one time....Leave it.

 

So you like a "majority rules" approach?

[Jpoy85]

So you like a "majority rules" approach?

 

I dont know that I like it? Im sure they have a reason for the prayer and im sure they dont want to offend anyone either. I dont think I could write a note asking them to stop praying. I would stand there quietly and not pray, id be respectful of others who choose to participate.

[Alenee]

Public or not, I don't think prayer in any setting should be frowned upon. YOU don't have to pray. This is a problem that has only really made it's showing in the recent past. People may be uncomfortable with it but why should others stop to ease your discomfort when you can easily just NOT pray? Life provides many opportunities to practice tolerance. This is one of those times.

[Skadi]

I'm pretty sure those who support it wouldnt be quite so 'tolerant' if the prayer in question was, say, Islamic.

 

Anyway, the real issue here is that the charter is public. Because of the Separation of Church and State, formal prayer is completely inappropriate.

[Aggie]

I'm pretty sure those who support it wouldnt be quite so 'tolerant' if the prayer in question was, say, Islamic.

 

Anyway, the real issue here is that the charter is public. Because of the Separation of Church and State, formal prayer is completely inappropriate.

 

Perhaps it was Islamic. OP never said. :001_smile:

[NASDAQ]

I'm Jewish. I'd say something if it was a very specific prayer for one faith. I would not say anything if it was one of those vague, higher-power-thank-you-for-this-concert type of deals.

 

But prayer isn't allowed at public schools or public school events, so I'm surprised they're doing it.

[Amira]

I would certainly find someone to email about that. I know exactly what you're asking, having lived in the same area you do, and I can't see much reason for a prayer to be said at a public school meeting, especially if it's clearly a prayer from the majority. My answer could be somewhat different if the circumstances were different though.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Amira

[Lisbeth]

Id leave it. They may have it for a reason. Maybe they like it, maybe they voted on it at one time....Leave it.

 

I would leave it alone also.

[lailasmum]

It seems really bizarre to me to have a prayer at a public event. Especially as the event wasn't in anyway connected with a faith. I would definitely raise concerns over that.

 

Here the local council has recently had to stop saying Christian prayers at the beginning of their meetings, I think it was actually already illegal but the councillors hadn't cottoned on. I can't see why they didn't stop saying prayers a long time ago since they are working for a multicultural society. I think these sort of prayers would be off putting to people of other religions or aetheists. It is definitely off putting to me.

 

Surely the people who want to pray could be accomodated prior to the event or pray on their own.

Edited April 20, 2012 by lailasmum

[Melinda in VT]

I would certainly find someone to email about that. I know exactly what you're asking, having lived in the same area you do, and I can't see much reason for a prayer to be said at a public school meeting, especially if it's clearly a prayer from the majority. My answer could be somewhat different if the circumstances were different though.

 

:iagree:

 

I think there is a place for religion in public schools (for example, reading parts of the Bible in an English lit class or singing religious music in choir), but saying a prayer at the beginning of a concert is not one of them.

[Jen in PA]

I would definitely contact somebody. That is not appropriate, and, quite likely, not legal.

[Rivka]

I'm pretty sure those who support it wouldnt be quite so 'tolerant' if the prayer in question was, say, Islamic.

 

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.

 

Anyway, the real issue here is that the charter is public. Because of the Separation of Church and State, formal prayer is completely inappropriate.

 

Totally agree.

[YLVD]

I'm pretty sure those who support it wouldnt be quite so 'tolerant' if the prayer in question was, say, Islamic.

 

Anyway, the real issue here is that the charter is public. Because of the Separation of Church and State, formal prayer is completely inappropriate.

 

Exactly, they would not

 

It is honestly offensive for people to assume that others that are not religious must just suck it up and deal when others would not be comfortable if it were a different religion, especially Islamic or similar.

 

Plus, religion does NOT belong at a public school. I would email right away.

[jennsmile]

I don't know the law, but I think public prayer good. We are a nation under GOD can we not acknowledge his presence in public once in a while in a good way.

 

I live in TX and the little school down the road says prayers before football games and prayers at graduation. I have no problem with it. I don't remember if they said prayer before the band concert it has been a few years.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I'm pretty sure those who support it wouldnt be quite so 'tolerant' if the prayer in question was, say, Islamic.

 

Anyway, the real issue here is that the charter is public. Because of the Separation of Church and State, formal prayer is completely inappropriate.

 

:iagree:

[AvasMom]

Public or not, I don't think prayer in any setting should be frowned upon. YOU don't have to pray. This is a problem that has only really made it's showing in the recent past. People may be uncomfortable with it but why should others stop to ease your discomfort when you can easily just NOT pray? Life provides many opportunities to practice tolerance. This is one of those times.

 

:iagree: Certainly not a hill to die on. No one is being forced to pray so don't.

[AvasMom]

I'm pretty sure those who support it wouldnt be quite so 'tolerant' if the prayer in question was, say, Islamic.

 

Anyway, the real issue here is that the charter is public. Because of the Separation of Church and State, formal prayer is completely inappropriate.

 

That wouldn't bother me in the least. Spirituality is part of who we are as humans and I think tolerance of each other is preferable to trying to deny that we are spiritual beings.

[Melinda in VT]

That wouldn't bother me in the least. Spirituality is part of who we are as humans and I think tolerance of each other is preferable to trying to deny that we are spiritual beings.

 

We are also sexual beings, but I am against sex in public. ;)

[KarenNC]

I'd send a note. The "line" is more of a random scattering of short dashes around here. In fact, I just sent a letter to the editor of our local paper this week regarding this sort of issue. One of the local city councils finally went to a moment of silence rather than a very sectarian, specifically "in Jesus' name" prayer before council meetings because someone complained. The town I am in has adamantly refused to follow suit and publicly stated that they planned to continue to pray before meetings. Having been to one of the town meetings before, their prayer is not only "in Jesus name," it specifically asks for his guidance for all present in their decision making, etc. Our town mayor also sent out a fundraising letter for a proselytizing missions group in the town water bill last year (he did back down after complaints).

 

There should not be a religious test, barrier or religious coercion required to participate fully in publicly-funded activities (in America, can't speak to other countries). I consider being required to participate in specifically sectarian prayer (including having to be quiet and just suck it up) to be a form of religious coercion.

 

Hopefully it was just not thinking on the part of the school and bringing it to their attention will be enough. You may get the backlash we have had here about the council moment of silence issue with folks claiming that Christians are being persecuted and oppressed by not being allowed to require everyone in attendance at an event to essentially participate in a worship service. They may claim that not allowing them to pray aloud in public and require everyone else to participate violates their religious freedom. In that case, you may want to refer them to Matthew 6: 5-6 and suggest they follow Jesus' specific instructions on prayer if they are truly intending to honor him. I much prefer Jefferson's meaning of religious freedom (the freedom to practice my individual religion) to that of the Puritans (the freedom to use governmental authority to require everyone else to practice my individual religion).

[catz]

Exactly, they would not

 

It is honestly offensive for people to assume that others that are not religious must just suck it up and deal when others would not be comfortable if it were a different religion, especially Islamic or similar.

 

Plus, religion does NOT belong at a public school. I would email right away.

 

:iagree: If the group had taken the time to chant mantras or reflect on the seasons, it likely would not be ok with the crowd. I would write something up, in particular because it was involved with a public school event. I could overlook in many settings but that seems inappropriate to me.

[merry gardens]

Did they establish a religion and require everyone to join in the prayer OR did someone of faith simply exercise his or her individual right to free speech in front of a microphone?

[susankenny]

What was so offensive about it? Is it just that they talked to a God you don't believe in? If the prayer was condemning or something, I get it. Otherwise, maybe the issue lies within you and not the prayer.

 

Susan

[clarkacademy]

If it is upsetting to some people what about the people who believe in that? I mean OK you don't so I should respect you. I do and respect me. I should have freedom of speech same as you shouldn't I?

 

Everyone who is crying disrespect isn't worrying about respecting other people. We are one nation under God. That includes the schools whether the government wants to say so or not. Also not to be mean, when we had less government and more prayer the schools were a better place.

 

It is a prayer it is not a federal case. I have to watch as children direspect the flag that people have died for. I have to hear other kids telling mine so and so isn't real. If I say anything then I am rude. Yet if I say a prayer i am disrespecting someone?

[mafi39]

I don't get what the big deal is. Our country was founded on prayer, and God. I'm from the south and we pray. A LOT.

 

We have become the nation of the offended.

[susankenny]

The reactions here are simply amazing.

 

 

Of course this was grossly inappropriate and I would most certainly write an email to the school expressing that.

 

Honestly. I totally disagree. Prayer is very common throughout the entire planet. We are not the norm, but the exception. People in America are so easily offended by everything, yet we preach tolerance and open-mindedness. Now that is what I find unreal.

 

Susan

[AHASRADA]

I'm honestly surprised we are even having this discussion. Wasn't it decided years ago that school-led prayer at public school events are illegal? Individual students, or groups of students, can pray at school, as they have the right to practice their religion, whichever it is.

 

What is not permitted is the school itself sanctioning religion in any form, including leading a prayer at a public event. In the US, majority does not "rule" in areas covered by the Bill of Rights, including religion. Those who are "different" don't have to suck it up and ignore the prayer, deferring to the majority. A state religion is not allowed by the constitution, and therefore no public institution is permitted to favor one faith over another, "majority"'or not.

 

To me it's a "no-brainer". Bring this to the school's attention before someone contacts the ACLU and they're slapped with a lawsuit. Wow, can't believe this is still an issue. :tongue_smilie:

[Ellie]

Historically, in this country, it has not been in appropriate to open events like this with prayer. Please let it go.

[susankenny]

I'm not offended exactly, but I am expressing my view of the situation just like you are.

 

Do I expect to always have my way? No. If enough people want prayer in this situation I'm fine with it. But to act like that won't be controversial is naive.

 

 

And I totally get that. Truly I do. I don't think everyone has to think it's a grand prayer by any means. However, when I traveled overseas I found beauty in other religions, not offense. Unless someone is proselytizing me, I can deal with a prayer or a blessing being spoken aloud, even if it's to a God I don't believe in. A prayer said in a public setting doesn't assume I have to believe or agree, it just assumes that the majority of the people there do.

 

Susan

[chiguirre]

I really dislike being forced to stand silently during public prayer since I feel I'm being coerced to participate (you can't just keep chatting with your neighbor if you don't share the beliefs expressed). However, I'm pretty sure there is a court case that allowed prayer at volutary, extracurricular activities which is why they say prayers before football games in Texas.

 

So, I wouldn't write a note, because I'm pretty sure they've covered their rear legally, but I would hold it as a negative aspect of the school and weigh if I wanted to send my kids there or not.

[Amira]

And I totally get that. Truly I do. I don't think everyone has to think it's a grand prayer by any means. However, when I traveled overseas I found beauty in other religions, not offense. Unless someone is proselytizing me, I can deal with a prayer or a blessing being spoken aloud, even if it's to a God I don't believe in. A prayer said in a public setting doesn't assume I have to believe or agree, it just assumes that the majority of the people there do.

 

Susan

 

I love to hear and see the prayers and devotion of people of any faith. But that doesn't mean that I think a public school event is the place for that devotion.

[K&Rs Mom]

I really dislike being forced to stand silently during public prayer since I feel I'm being coerced to participate (you can't just keep chatting with your neighbor if you don't share the beliefs expressed).

 

Honest question: how is being silent during prayer more coercive than being silent during the concert (when it would also be rude to be chatting)? Is it different because you choose to be at the concert but the prayer was an unexpected extra? Would it make a difference if in the concert advertisement they specified what would happen before it started, so you could arrange your schedule? Actually that seems like more of a burden, trying to arrange to leave the room at just the right time or arrive just late enough. I'm not trying to say whether a prayer in this context is fine or not, just trying to understand the "force" part of it.

[susankenny]

I really dislike being forced to stand silently during public prayer since I feel I'm being coerced to participate (you can't just keep chatting with your neighbor if you don't share the beliefs expressed).

 

But this is true for many things, not just prayer. Two quick examples are the Pledge of Allegiance & the American Anthem. Even if you think they are a load of crap, most people don't. You are still going to find yourself sitting there for a few minutes just having to deal with it.

 

Susan

[tomandlorih]

If I lived in a community that was nearly 3/4 of ANY religion, I would EXPECT and not be offended by lots of folks talking about, making reference to, celebrating the festivals/holidays or whatnot of that religion.. Yes, even out and about in the community, business or "public" school world. In most religions..your religion/beliefs are supposed to be part of who you are.. not one way at home and oops, we are out the door now so who you are and what you believe cease to exist just because it might "bother" a vague "someone".

 

IMHO, this kind of thinking is where our children are learning intolerance.. I teach my kids that being different is okay.. not that to be okay you have to drop everything and be part of a homogenous nothing. (BTW, before you bash.. it is NOT okay to be over the top , in your face or anything but respectful of another's feelings..but that does NOT mean denying our differences).

 

Hmm.. thinking more people should watch that Star Trek thing about the Borg and how we as humans all think and act differently and that's a GOOD thing.

 

That all being said.. what was the point of praying before a music concert?? Praying that everyone does their best and no injuries occur? Don't get it. :confused:

[FiveOaksAcademy]

How refreshing. :001_smile: I wish that would happen at other events more often. It is a way for God to bless those who believe in Him and those who don't. I agree with the poster who said that our country was founded on prayer and I agree with the one who said our country has become too easily offended by, well, everything!! If my children were as whiney as half of America is, I'd have a deep talk about how off their focus was. The only people who are NOT allowed to be offended are Christians. It's nonsense is what it is and I'm sick of it!!

[FiveOaksAcademy]

If it is upsetting to some people what about the people who believe in that? I mean OK you don't so I should respect you. I do and respect me. I should have freedom of speech same as you shouldn't I?

 

Everyone who is crying disrespect isn't worrying about respecting other people. We are one nation under God. That includes the schools whether the government wants to say so or not. Also not to be mean, when we had less government and more prayer the schools were a better place.

 

It is a prayer it is not a federal case. I have to watch as children direspect the flag that people have died for. I have to hear other kids telling mine so and so isn't real. If I say anything then I am rude. Yet if I say a prayer i am disrespecting someone?

 

:iagree: All of this!!!

[Mynyel]

I can't believe people are still having a discussion over what offends them.

 

Why not just be gracious and think about what you need at the grocery store instead of listening to the prayer. No one is *forcing* you to actually pray.

 

You don't even have to listen to it. Stick some ear buds in your ear.

 

One pp said something about if it was Islamic. I am Christian but still.. who cares? I will pray to *my* God while they pray to theirs. If I was an atheist I would probably stand there rolling my eyes in my head. but I certainly wouldn't make a stink. I seriously doubt they were trying to offend anyone on purpose.

 

There are many things that are offensive to me, but should they be removed or stopped just because they are?

[EKS]

It is very likely that if the powers that be got wind of this, especially if it happens more than once, the school would lose its charter. I would use the angle that you're worried about that happening and say something to the people doing the praying.

[Momof3littles]

I'm honestly surprised we are even having this discussion. Wasn't it decided years ago that school-led prayer at public school events are illegal? Individual students, or groups of students, can pray at school, as they have the right to practice their religion, whichever it is.

 

What is not permitted is the school itself sanctioning religion in any form, including leading a prayer at a public event. In the US, majority does not "rule" in areas covered by the Bill of Rights, including religion. Those who are "different" don't have to suck it up and ignore the prayer, deferring to the majority. A state religion is not allowed by the constitution, and therefore no public institution is permitted to favor one faith over another, "majority"'or not.

 

To me it's a "no-brainer". Bring this to the school's attention before someone contacts the ACLU and they're slapped with a lawsuit. Wow, can't believe this is still an issue. :tongue_smilie:

:iagree:

[FiveOaksAcademy]

I'm pretty sure those who support it wouldnt be quite so 'tolerant' if the prayer in question was, say, Islamic.

 

Anyway, the real issue here is that the charter is public. Because of the Separation of Church and State, formal prayer is completely inappropriate.

 

 

We're not an Islamic nation. If we were an Islamic nation, I'd expect it. If I go to the middle east, I as a Christian would expect to go and expect Islamic prayers to be the norm. Not here!

 

Separation of church and state is not the truth of what started any of this in the first place. That phrase is a distortion of what was intended in the Constitution. People took the First Amendment, twisted it to fit what they wanted, then made laws based on their distortion. Nothing IN our Constitution ever encouraged or supported that...it was there to protect the Church FROM the jurisdiction of the State.

Edited April 20, 2012 by FiveOaksAcademy

[Momof3littles]

At least a moment of silence is coercive to every single person in the room, not just some of the people in the room. It doesn't show favoritism. It doesn't exclude.

:iagree:

[Dmmetler]

I would address it. At a homeschool event, it wouldn't surprise me because so many of the large groups ARE Christian, and most depend on churches to have a physical place to meet. My group meets in a UU church, and it wouldn't surprise me if the minister wanted to do some form of blessing if she were at an event, simply because we're in her building. And even though I'm not UU, I wouldn't be bothered by that-nor, I think would our Moslem, Hindu, or Atheist members.

 

But since this is a public charter, I don't see it as appropriate.

[Momof3littles]

We're not a Islamic nation. If we were an Islamic nation, I'd expect it. If I go to the middle east, I as a Christian would expect to go and expect Islamic prayers to be the norm. Not here!

 

Separation of church and state is not the truth of what started any of this in the first place. That phrase is a distortion of what was intended in the Constitution. People took the First Amendment, twisted it to fit what they wanted, then made laws based on their distortion. Nothing IN our Constitution ever encouraged or supported that...it was there to protect the Church FROM the jurisdiction of the State.

I'm not an attorney, but I think at this point case law makes it very clear that the school can't lead prayer. Individuals can pray in school, but you can't have a public school authority leading a prayer. I disagree on the constitution issue, but IMO it is settled case law at this point.

[magnificent_baby]

We're not a Islamic nation. If we were an Islamic nation, I'd expect it. If I go to the middle east, I as a Christian would expect to go and expect Islamic prayers to be the norm. Not here!

 

Separation of church and state is not the truth of what started any of this in the first place. That phrase is a distortion of what was intended in the Constitution. People took the First Amendment, twisted it to fit what they wanted, then made laws based on their distortion. Nothing IN our Constitution ever encouraged or supported that...it was there to protect the Church FROM the jurisdiction of the State.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Parrothead]

We're not an Islamic nation. If we were an Islamic nation, I'd expect it. If I go to the middle east, I as a Christian would expect to go and expect Islamic prayers to be the norm. Not here!

 

Separation of church and state is not the truth of what started any of this in the first place. That phrase is a distortion of what was intended in the Constitution. People took the First Amendment, twisted it to fit what they wanted, then made laws based on their distortion. Nothing IN our Constitution ever encouraged or supported that...it was there to protect the Church FROM the jurisdiction of the State.

:iagree:Hopefully one day one of the justices on SCOTUS will actually read the Establishment Clause and fix the nonsense.

[Unicorn.]

I'm honestly surprised we are even having this discussion. Wasn't it decided years ago that school-led prayer at public school events are illegal? Individual students, or groups of students, can pray at school, as they have the right to practice their religion, whichever it is.

 

What is not permitted is the school itself sanctioning religion in any form, including leading a prayer at a public event. In the US, majority does not "rule" in areas covered by the Bill of Rights, including religion. Those who are "different" don't have to suck it up and ignore the prayer, deferring to the majority. A state religion is not allowed by the constitution, and therefore no public institution is permitted to favor one faith over another, "majority"'or not.

 

To me it's a "no-brainer". Bring this to the school's attention before someone contacts the ACLU and they're slapped with a lawsuit. Wow, can't believe this is still an issue. :tongue_smilie:

 

No. Non specific prayer is still allowed. It is here anyway.

[ktgrok]

I don't get what the big deal is. Our country was founded on prayer, and God. I'm from the south and we pray. A LOT.

 

We have become the nation of the offended.

 

For all those saying it shouldn't be offensive or a big deal. Would you feel the same way if the OP posted that someone led an obviously Pagan prayer at the start of the program, calling on the four elements? What if the person leading the concert had said a prayer to allah? Would you feel the same?

[mommymilkies]

I'm Jewish. I'd say something if it was a very specific prayer for one faith. I would not say anything if it was one of those vague, higher-power-thank-you-for-this-concert type of deals.

 

But prayer isn't allowed at public schools or public school events, so I'm surprised they're doing it.

I agree. I was raised Jewish and the prayers made me very uncomfortable. It's easy to think they're benign, but they make some people uncomfortable or are offensive. I can't tell you how many prayers I *had* to sit through as a child that I could do nothing about and made me feel bad. Since it is a public event, the prayer was inappropriate.

 

Sure nobody is forcing you to pray, but they often are telling you (or your young children who have less of an ability to understand or block it out) that they are going to hell, should find salvation, or should thank Jesus (even if you're Muslim or Jewish). Either leave the prayers for a religious function, make it optional in one area (not throughout the function), or deal with the fact that it will be unfair to 30% of your audience.

[catz]

At least a moment of silence is coercive to every single person in the room, not just some of the people in the room. It doesn't show favoritism. It doesn't exclude.

 

:iagree: If this was an event where children were present (which I assume it is), I find this especially troublesome. I don't think kids should need to weed through a mixed message at school and home and then be led to feel like they're not part of the "in" crowd if they do not practice that religion at home when parents have chosen a public school. It does feel very uncomfortable as an outsider. A moment of silence would be totally fine with me. If this were an adult only event, I'd be more ok with it. I have traveled the world and I am extremely tolerant of differences. I was fine with the teacher wearing the niqub in the classroom. Would people also be ok with the teacher in the niqub saying prayers or bowing to Mecca? I am fine with non-verbal practice like the niquab or wearing a cross or a yarmulke. But a specific, verbal prayer seems like crossing a line to me.