Should I say something? Prayer at public charter homeschool event.

[susankenny]

I agree. I was raised Jewish and the prayers made me very uncomfortable. It's easy to think they're benign, but they make some people uncomfortable or are offensive. I can't tell you how many prayers I *had* to sit through as a child that I could do nothing about and made me feel bad. Since it is a public event, the prayer was inappropriate.

 

Sure nobody is forcing you to pray, but they often are telling you (or your young children who have less of an ability to understand or block it out) that they are going to hell, should find salvation, or should thank Jesus (even if you're Muslim or Jewish). Either leave the prayers for a religious function, make it optional in one area (not throughout the function), or deal with the fact that it will be unfair to 30% of your audience.

 

 

There is a huge difference in asking God to bless this time and telling an audience that they are going to hell. I would say the majority of Christians would be equally uncomfortable and offended by the latter. All Christian prayer is not to lumped into one thoughtless category.

 

Susan

[Desert Rat]

I'm Jewish. I'd say something if it was a very specific prayer for one faith. I would not say anything if it was one of those vague, higher-power-thank-you-for-this-concert type of deals.

 

But prayer isn't allowed at public schools or public school events, so I'm surprised they're doing it.

 

:iagree: This was my thought. I'm atheist, I don't have a problem with the vague "God" type prayers. That could mean ANY God, heck, even Odin or Zeus. But if it mentioned Jesus Christ, or Allah, or Zeus, then I would write a letter.

 

I marked "other" because I would only write a letter if it was a specific God, otherwise I'd let it go.

[gingersmom]

For all those saying it shouldn't be offensive or a big deal. Would you feel the same way if the OP posted that someone led an obviously Pagan prayer at the start of the program, calling on the four elements? What if the person leading the concert had said a prayer to allah? Would you feel the same?

 

Who are we kidding.......they would be hooting and hollering about it like lunatics online.

 

I think people online forget sometimes that we are all not the same religion, we are all not from the same geographic areas, we do not all have churches/houses of worship on every street corner.

 

I am from a NYC suburb and I can guarantee you if it happened in my neck of the woods there would be a huge cry of outrage, civil liberties leaders would be involved and every news channel would be talking about it.

[SailorMom]

That's a tough one. I'm very used to being assumed Christian down here in the South - so it doesn't bother me... It seriously doesn't occur to some people here that anyone wouldn't be some kind of Christian(unless a person is obviously from a different culture/country - think possibly Buddhist or Muslim).

Was the prayer really vague and generalized? I.E. - referencing a 'higher power' or something similar and not specifically Jesus?

I think a non-denominational (referring not just to Christian denomination, but to all religion) prayer usually kinda acceptable. Yes - there are agnostics and atheists out there, and yes - a prayer could bother them - but I think for the most part (at least from those whom I've spoken to) they just ignore it.

For me, personally, I'm ok with it as long as there isn't the, "In Jesus' name we pray," or something at the end. Doesn't work for me.... Honestly, as an adult, I don't really care, but it makes me uncomfortable for all the kids (including my own) to whom this doesn't apply. It truly makes those kids feel uncomfortable and out of place.

Edited April 20, 2012 by SailorMom

[mommymilkies]

There is a huge difference in asking God to bless this time and telling an audience that they are going to hell. I would say the majority of Christians would be equally uncomfortable and offended by the latter. All Christian prayer is not to lumped into one thoughtless category.

 

Susan

It depends on the denomination and you're area. Even as an adult, I've sat through numerous ones that were like that. Praying for the souls of those who haven't found Jesus and will never know His glory and never partake in Heaven... As a child, it's scary. I have no problem with a moment of silence, but an actual prayer can push it. And this goes for *any* religion, not just Christianity. If it's a religious event, it's best just not to push it on people.

[mommaduck]

I believe it's only illegal if led by a staff member. Student led is still legal.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I'm pretty sure those who support it wouldnt be quite so 'tolerant' if the prayer in question was, say, Islamic.

 

Anyway, the real issue here is that the charter is public. Because of the Separation of Church and State, formal prayer is completely inappropriate.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[Parrothead]

For all those saying it shouldn't be offensive or a big deal. Would you feel the same way if the OP posted that someone led an obviously Pagan prayer at the start of the program, calling on the four elements? What if the person leading the concert had said a prayer to allah? Would you feel the same?

Honestly if that was what the majority of the folks believed then fine. I've prayed with different Christians. I've chanted with Buddhists. I've stood quietly in a circle. Prayed with Jewish people. I've studied the Tao a bit with a Taoist. All of this in the US. Although I've never had the opportunity to know any Muslims IRL.

 

There are so many subcultures in the US that if one gets offended by each and every one then one spends one's life either perpetually offended or stunted by a lack of diversity.

 

The other side of the coin is that if one belongs to one of the many subcultures in the US one must realize that while not specifically a Christian nation, 70% of the population claims to be. It is difficult to get away from.

[SailorMom]

Praying for the souls of those who haven't found Jesus and will never know His glory and never partake in Heaven... As a child, it's scary. I have no problem with a moment of silence, but an actual prayer can push it. And this goes for *any* religion, not just Christianity. If it's a religious event, it's best just not to push it on people.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Yes - I get very tired of my kids being told they are gong to hell by well-meaning people. This happens inadvertently (as in the prayers like what I quoted). Thankfully they are older now and it doesn't bother them as much.

[Parrothead]

There is a huge difference in asking God to bless this time and telling an audience that they are going to hell. I would say the majority of Christians would be equally uncomfortable and offended by the latter. All Christian prayer is not to lumped into one thoughtless category.

 

Susan

:iagree:

[chepyl]

There is a huge difference in asking God to bless this time and telling an audience that they are going to hell. I would say the majority of Christians would be equally uncomfortable and offended by the latter. All Christian prayer is not to lumped into one thoughtless category.

 

Susan

 

:iagree:

 

Who led the prayer? Was of a student or a teacher/administrator. If it was a student, perhaps the kids were allowed to provide introductory exercises and only one student volunteered. Also, what was said? That makes a huge difference as well.

[ezrabean2005]

Who are we kidding.......they would be hooting and hollering about it like lunatics online.

 

I think people online forget sometimes that we are all not the same religion, we are all not from the same geographic areas, we do not all have churches/houses of worship on every street corner.

 

I am from a NYC suburb and I can guarantee you if it happened in my neck of the woods there would be a huge cry of outrage, civil liberties leaders would be involved and every news channel would be talking about it.

 

:iagree:

The same would happen here.

I'd write a letter.

[Melinda in VT]

I can almost guarantee it happened something like this:

 

<person walks up to the microphone> Good evening. I'd like to welcome all of you to the <this school> concert. The kids have been working very hard. And now I'd like to start with a word of prayer. <bows head, folds arms> Dear Heavenly Father . . . <insert thanks for the kids, parents, and teachers, requests for everyone to perform well and to travel home safely, blessing that the refreshments will nourish and strengthen those who eat them> . . . in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

 

Frankly, I think there is a separate issue aside from the legal issue: does the school want to promote the idea that the school is for <members of X religion> only and have it be one more instance of religious conflict in a community already uncomfortable for those not of X religion? Or does it want to stand behind its stated beliefs and allow others their own religious worship? If the latter, they should keep worship practices of X religion out of the public school.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I don't know the law, but I think public prayer good. We are a nation under GOD can we not acknowledge his presence in public once in a while in a good way.

 

I live in TX and the little school down the road says prayers before football games and prayers at graduation. I have no problem with it. I don't remember if they said prayer before the band concert it has been a few years.

 

IMO I would go to the National Archives and read what Thomas Jefferson would have to say about separation of church and state. He is quite clear in this matter and for separation of church and state:)

 

Pray does not belong in public schools. Whose religion or flavor of Christianity should the state endorse by allowing prayer in schools?

 

Do we want America to become a theocracy as some Islamic states are?

Edited April 20, 2012 by priscilla

[susankenny]

It depends on the denomination and you're area. Even as an adult, I've sat through numerous ones that were like that. Praying for the souls of those who haven't found Jesus and will never know His glory and never partake in Heaven... As a child, it's scary. I have no problem with a moment of silence, but an actual prayer can push it. And this goes for *any* religion, not just Christianity. If it's a religious event, it's best just not to push it on people.

 

 

I'm sorry for you. It's difficult for me to wrap my brain around that, as I have never been exposed to that type of fire and brimstone preaching at a public school event (or even my church for that matter). It sounds like the area you live in really sucks, no offense.

 

My understanding in this thread, however, is that the incident at hand wasn't proselytizing the audience. I took the original post to imply that they prayed for a blessing or perhaps gave thanks. With this, I am more than okay & not offended. Prayer is common practice in many parts of the world before many events.

 

Perhaps the OP will return and give us clarity.

 

 

Susan

[Scuff]

Growing up, I remember lots of times when there was a prayer beforee a public meeting or parade or ceremony. I had a jewish friend who would just stand quietly with her head unbowed and her eyes open. Respectful, but not participating. I think sometimes it's just a cultural thing and not a big deal. I wouldn't object to the prayer. And if ai ever found myself in a place whee prayers were being offered in a religion I'm not a part of, I'd just quietly not participate. Honestly, I think this is one area we get can get worked up about for no reasOn. Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from ever being exposed to any religion that's not yours. Quite the opposite. If we're all feee to practice our religion, than we will be exposed to many that are not ours.

[DianeW88]

I really dislike being forced to stand silently during public prayer since I feel I'm being coerced to participate (you can't just keep chatting with your neighbor if you don't share the beliefs expressed). However, I'm pretty sure there is a court case that allowed prayer at volutary, extracurricular activities which is why they say prayers before football games in Texas.

 

So, I wouldn't write a note, because I'm pretty sure they've covered their rear legally, but I would hold it as a negative aspect of the school and weigh if I wanted to send my kids there or not.

 

:iagree:It is not illegal unless others are being forced to participate.

[Amira]

I can almost guarantee it happened something like this:

 

<person walks up to the microphone> Good evening. I'd like to welcome all of you to the <this school> concert. The kids have been working very hard. And now I'd like to start with a word of prayer. <bows head, folds arms> Dear Heavenly Father . . . <insert thanks for the kids, parents, and teachers, requests for everyone to perform well and to travel home safely, blessing that the refreshments will nourish and strengthen those who eat them> . . . in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

 

Frankly, I think there is a separate issue aside from the legal issue: does the school want to promote the idea that the school is for <members of X religion> only and have it be one more instance of religious conflict in a community already uncomfortable for those not of X religion? Or does it want to stand behind its stated beliefs and allow others their own religious worship? If the latter, they should keep worship practices of X religion out of the public school.

 

Glad you didn't forget the strengthening refreshments. ;)

 

Your second paragraph is exactly why, even though I respect and even enjoy the religious practices of many people, I don't see a benefit in promoting this type of devotion in a public school.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Amira

[Julie in Austin]

I'd write a letter to the school, with copies sent to whatever state agency (re)issues charters, reminding them that that what they have done is illegal.

 

(I suspect that one of the tenets of the majority religion in your area is obeying and honoring the law, no?)

 

I'd also suggest to them that it was very unwise politically--many people in this country are somewhat wary of charters, and when word gets out that charters are violating the law, that isn't going to look good for their cause.

[garddwr]

I personally think there is a place for public prayer in our society. When I was in the military important events always began with a prayer, and in spite of the fact that nearly all those prayers were offered by people of faiths other than my own, I appreciated them. Acknowledging publicly that God is significant to a large portion of our society is not wrong, nor should it be offensive. There are enough venues where God is left out! If we are going to start taking offense I think those who are religious have just as much cause to be offended by the lack of acknowledgment of God in most school, civic and social events.

[Ann@thebeach]

Nothing changes unless someone steps forward.

I hate it when I hear "we've always done it this way" or "what's the big deal?" about things like this. It's because most people are used to living in a homogenous environment and don't think about others different from themselves and ASSUME it's OK.

It's not OK, there should NOT be a prayer at a public school function.

I'd send a note.

[moonlight]

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Yes - I get very tired of my kids being told they are gong to hell by well-meaning people. This happens inadvertently (as in the prayers like what I quoted). QUOTE]

 

:iagree:completely!

[Aelwydd]

I think that if the opportunity arises, you should express your concerns.

 

Personally, I don't appreciate other strangers "leading" me in prayer, especially at a public function of a tax-payer funded agency. They don't even have to be Muslim or Pagan or Jewish or whatever for me to find it offensive. My prayer, and my conversation with God is not something I want usurped by another person spontaneously standing up and "drafting" me into a group prayer.

 

If I go to a church, that's one thing. But in a public school? That should be neutral territory.

 

Why should I have to "bow my head" at the behest of someone's arbitrary will? They're not my pastor, my spiritual adviser, or even my friend. They're just some person taking it upon him or herself to stand up and compel a group of people to participate in prayer.

 

If others are fine with that, I don't think that should mean the rest of us must simply put up with such presumptive behavior.

[Ferdie]

With a public charter school I would choose your battles carefully. Our experience with a charter school is that the admin. staff wear many hats and are stretched thin. I wouldn't complain over something that is not critically important to you. Give the administrators lots of encouragment, praise and volunteer hours. Voice your concern over things that are crucial for you. For us it has been students cheating during independent lab, poor curriculum choice and a student watching p@rn on their iphone on school property. For me prayer before an event once or twice a year - no biggie.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Ferdie

[Stacia]

I don't get what the big deal is. Our country was founded on prayer, and God. I'm from the south and we pray. A LOT.

 

We have become the nation of the offended.

 

Really? I'm from the south. I don't pray.

 

And, our country was not totally founded on prayer. Georgia, for example, was founded as a business venture & debtor's colony.

 

I'm not offended by your post, but I do think it shows ignorance... which just underscores the irony of your post in this thread.

[Spy Car]

Such prayers at public school events are clearly unconstitutional as affirmed in multiple Supreme Court and Federal District Court decisions. As such the prayers are unlawful. This is clear and unambiguous.

 

Bill

Edited April 20, 2012 by Spy Car

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

And, our country was not totally founded on prayer. Georgia, for example, was founded as a business venture & debtor's colony.

 

 

:iagree: Our country was founded by people who were sick of paying taxes to the monarch of England. It had nothing to do with religion, God, or prayer.

[Mergath]

I would say that I'm shocked by most of the responses so far, but I've been here for awhile now, and I'm really not surprised. :glare: It's easy to stand up for public prayer when yours is the religion of the majority.

 

I'd say something. Like many of the people around here, the school administration might have just assumed that every family that attends their school is of the same faith. They'll most likely be more mindful in the future if you point out that it made you uncomfortable.

[Jen500]

Could be the tip of the iceberg at the school. I'm assuming your kids don't attend there?

[stripe]

Read The Good News Club or any of the articles by its author, Katherine Stewart.

 

There is a concerted effort to introduce Christian prayer into the public schools under the heading of free speech. The idea that there a school-sponsored religious prayer by any other religious group is a joke.

 

ETA: I pray, too. But I consider it inappropriate to demand others in a religiously neutral environment made up of others from other religions to be expected to follow my prayers.

[K&Rs Mom]

At least a moment of silence is coercive to every single person in the room, not just some of the people in the room. It doesn't show favoritism. It doesn't exclude.

 

Thanks for clarifying - that does make sense.

[Cricket]

And I totally get that. Truly I do. I don't think everyone has to think it's a grand prayer by any means. However, when I traveled overseas I found beauty in other religions, not offense. Unless someone is proselytizing me, I can deal with a prayer or a blessing being spoken aloud, even if it's to a God I don't believe in. A prayer said in a public setting doesn't assume I have to believe or agree, it just assumes that the majority of the people there do.

 

Susan

 

:iagree:

 

As for people being offended if it was an Islamic (or insert any other non-Christian religion here) prayer...an Islamic prayer would be quite out of place in a large public gathering in America because of our Christian (historical and cultural) background in this country. Of course that would upset people (whether they were actually practicing Christians or not). A generic prayer shouldn't be that offensive to most people. I doubt it was laden with theology like one of our pastors' prayers would be in a worship service. This idea that a simple belief in a God has to be kept hidden like it's a shameful secret is rather silly.

 

On the other hand, as a practicing Christian, I'm not sure God cares about just lip service anyway. There is way more to Christianity than that.

[Farrar]

Count me in the "I can't believe we're even having this discussion" camp. The immense body of case law based on the Constitution is not ambiguous about this at all. It is absolutely illegal. Moments of silence, individuals saying prayers when the school (as a government body) provides a forum are shades of gray stuff open for debate. A specific religion's prayer opening an official government school event is simply not.

[mytwomonkeys]

Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from ever being exposed to any religion that's not yours. Quite the opposite. If we're all free to practice our religion, than we will be exposed to many that are not ours.

 

:iagree:

[Spock]

For all those saying it shouldn't be offensive or a big deal. Would you feel the same way if the OP posted that someone led an obviously Pagan prayer at the start of the program, calling on the four elements? What if the person leading the concert had said a prayer to allah? Would you feel the same?

 

I would feel very uncomfortable with a Pagan prayer, and somewhat uncomfortable with an Islamic prayer. I would consider not sending my kids to a school that appears to consist predominantly of those who hold a worldview I disagree with, and would teach/discuss from that viewpoint. However, I do not dispute their right to pray in public to whatever deity/deities they may believe in, even if the venue is partially government supported.

 

It might even be good to allow representatives of various religions within the school to take turns opening events with a prayer appropriate to their religion. Perhaps atheists could also take a turn opening with a favorite poem or other quotation?

 

If, in addition to the prayer, there was a sermon/message/other teaching based in a particular religion, that would cross the line and be totally inappropriate for an event that is supposed to be public school based. Also, if a school official (rather than a parent or student) prayed to open the event, it was most likely illegal, even if they plan to rotate which religion/belief system the prayers are from.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Spock

[Veritaserum]

OP here. :)

 

I can almost guarantee it happened something like this:

 

<person walks up to the microphone> Good evening. I'd like to welcome all of you to the <this school> concert. The kids have been working very hard. And now I'd like to start with a word of prayer. <bows head, folds arms> Dear Heavenly Father . . . <insert thanks for the kids, parents, and teachers, requests for everyone to perform well and to travel home safely, blessing that the refreshments will nourish and strengthen those who eat them> . . . in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

 

Frankly, I think there is a separate issue aside from the legal issue: does the school want to promote the idea that the school is for <members of X religion> only and have it be one more instance of religious conflict in a community already uncomfortable for those not of X religion? Or does it want to stand behind its stated beliefs and allow others their own religious worship? If the latter, they should keep worship practices of X religion out of the public school.

 

That's how it went, except the school admin invited a parent to say the prayer.

 

Our community is already divided between members of the majority religion (again, I am part of the religion, too) and those who are not. Many members of the majority religion do not interact with the "non-members," which leads to lonely and excluded people. That's why a prayer said specifically in the majority's style and in the name of the majority's diety is so concerning to me. It was so much more than a prayer when viewed in context, even though I'm sure the school admins had no malicious intentions. I believe they simply were not thinking.

 

Could be the tip of the iceberg at the school. I'm assuming your kids don't attend there?

 

They do attend there. My family was at the concert because two of my dds were performing. I'm happy with most things at the school. This bothered me a lot because I dislike the way that many people in the majority faith assume that everyone is part of their faith. There is no thought or consideration given to including or welcoming those who are not (unless they want to convert). It bothers me very much to see other members of my church behave this way.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Veritaserum
kittens

[Caitilin]

I'm pretty sure those who support it wouldnt be quite so 'tolerant' if the prayer in question was, say, Islamic.

 

Anyway, the real issue here is that the charter is public. Because of the Separation of Church and State, formal prayer is completely inappropriate.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Though I am religious myself, I would be angry and upset at something like this. Write the letter.

[coralloyd]

Who lead the prayer? Was it a student or teacher? If it was a student, they were legally within their rights.

 

ETA: Ah, I just saw it was a parent. Still within their rights.

Edited April 20, 2012 by coralloyd

[dangermom]

OP here. :)

...I'm sure the school admin's had no malicious intentions. I believe they simply were not thinking.

 

I'm sure you are correct about that. Not thinking so often leads to this kind of thing!

 

They do attend there. My family was at the concert because two of my dds were performing. I'm happy with most things at the school. This bothered me a lot because I dislike the way that many people in the majority faith assume that everyone is part of their faith. There is no thought or consideration given to including or welcoming those who are not (unless they want to convert). It bothers me very much to see other members of my church behave this way.

I hear you! I agree that it was very inappropriate, and something needs to be said. I worry that you will run into "What's the big deal? We've always done it this way!" and I think the suggestions about the illegality of it, and your concern for their wellbeing, are a good idea. I might also suggest marshaling some quotations from GAs on welcoming our neighbors, not being exclusive, and so on... You're going to need to handle this delicately, I think! :grouphug:

[JFSinIL]

I'm pretty sure those who support it wouldnt be quite so 'tolerant' if the prayer in question was, say, Islamic.

 

Anyway, the real issue here is that the charter is public. Because of the Separation of Church and State, formal prayer is completely inappropriate.

 

I agree.

[Spy Car]

OP here. :)

 

 

 

That's how it went, except the school admin invited a parent to say the prayer.

 

Our community is already divided between members of the majority religion (again, I am part of the religion, too) and those who are not. Many members of the majority religion do not interact with the "non-members," which leads to lonely and excluded people. That's why a prayer said specifically in the majority's style and in the name of the majority's diety is so concerning to me. It was so much more than a prayer when viewed in context, even though I'm sure the school admin's had no malicious intentions. I believe they simply were not thinking.

 

 

 

They do attend there. My family was at the concert because two of my dds were performing. I'm happy with most things at the school. This bothered me a lot because I dislike the way that many people in the majority faith assume that everyone is part of their faith. There is no thought or consideration given to including or welcoming those who are not (unless they want to convert). It bothers me very much to see other members of my church behave this way.

 

I believe you have answered your own question. One simply needs to be mindful of the Golden Rule and ones sense of conscience to know the situation is wrong.

 

How easily could the shoe be on the other foot, with prayers being framed to exclude your faith group were you in the minority?

 

It is especially noble, in my opinion, to speak when we are a member of the majority and we see a wrong being committed against a minority. It is easy (but ignoble) to act only when one is in the transgressed minority or to be silent when part of the transgressing majority.

 

These sort of prayers at public school events are illegal and unconstitutional. There is no ambiguity about that.

 

I'd urge you to follow your conscience and do the right thing.

 

Bill

Edited April 20, 2012 by Spy Car
Auto spell victim

[Mrs Mungo]

Separation of church and state is not the truth of what started any of this in the first place. That phrase is a distortion of what was intended in the Constitution. People took the First Amendment, twisted it to fit what they wanted, then made laws based on their distortion. Nothing IN our Constitution ever encouraged or supported that...it was there to protect the Church FROM the jurisdiction of the State.

 

I disagree with that completely. It was intended as both:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States

 

On the other hand...in this particular case? I don't know whether or not being a charter school makes a difference. It *has* made a big difference with other legal issues we have discussed. Looks like a charter school in South Carolina got in trouble for teaching religion, but it was the state's only charter school at the time, which was cited as the problem. Poking around the internet, it looks like religious charter schools and prayer within charter schools are allowed as long as there are other options for non-religious people. These are not just Christian schools either, some of them are Muslim charter schools. I would provide a link, but most of the links are anti-Muslim rants on conservative political sites. But, it looks like it might be allowed for charter schools.

[Farrar]

Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from ever being exposed to any religion that's not yours. Quite the opposite. If we're all feee to practice our religion, than we will be exposed to many that are not ours.

 

Yes, and I think some people do go overboard with this - trying to prevent kids from saying a personal prayer on school grounds or trying to stop churches from posting flyers on school bulletin boards where other groups are allowed to post. Living in our diverse nation, you will be exposed to religion and it is not the government's job to stop that, even on government property.

 

But this isn't that. This is the school, as an arm of the government, endorsing a specific prayer by inviting someone - a parent, apparently - to say a prayer to begin an official school event. That's totally different and the courts have ruled on it many, many times, making it extremely clear that it's not okay.

[Aelwydd]

I disagree with that completely. It was intended as both:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States

 

On the other hand...in this particular case? I don't know whether or not being a charter school makes a difference. It *has* made a big difference with other legal issues we have discussed. Looks like a charter school in South Carolina got in trouble for teaching religion, but it was the state's only charter school at the time, which was cited as the problem. Poking around the internet, it looks like religious charter schools and prayer within charter schools are allowed as long as there are other options for non-religious people. These are not just Christian schools either, some of them are Muslim charter schools. I would provide a link, but most of the links are anti-Muslim rants on conservative political sites. But, it looks like it might be allowed for charter schools.

 

To me, there is a distinct difference between teaching religion as a subject, and the practice of religion. I learned about Confucius, the Buddha, Taoism, Islam, Paganism, and other religions when I was in public school. None of those lessons ever involved me having to follow someone in a prayer, or making professions of faith.

[Momof3littles]

Yes, and I think some people do go overboard with this - trying to prevent kids from saying a personal prayer on school grounds or trying to stop churches from posting flyers on school bulletin boards where other groups are allowed to post. Living in our diverse nation, you will be exposed to religion and it is not the government's job to stop that, even on government property.

 

But this isn't that. This is the school, as an arm of the government, endorsing a specific prayer by inviting someone - a parent, apparently - to say a prayer to begin an official school event. That's totally different and the courts have ruled on it many, many times, making it extremely clear that it's not okay.

:iagree:

[KarenNC]

I would feel very uncomfortable with a Pagan prayer, and somewhat uncomfortable with an Islamic prayer. I would consider not sending my kids to a school that appears to consist predominantly of those who hold a worldview I disagree with, and would teach/discuss from that viewpoint. However, I do not dispute their right to pray in public to whatever deity/deities they may believe in, even if the venue is partially government supported.

 

Unless charters there work entirely different than charters here, the school is entirely government-supported. As another poster said, there are venues and situations when public sectarian prayer is appropriate. At a worship service, a privately funded activity, at an activity sponsored by a specific religious institution, etc, no issue.

 

This is not about whether an individual Christian, Muslim, Pagan, Santerian or devotee of the Flying Spaghetti Monster can pray individually at a public school event. Obviously, they can as an exercise of religious freedom. This situation is not a case of wanting "freedom from religion" as in, "I just happened to walk by while Sally was praying an individual prayer and I don't want to have to witness something like that." When that individual is asked (or permitted) by the school to take the microphone, stop all other activities and lead the other attendees in a corporate sectarian prayer, it crosses the line where a person is free from being required by the government to participate in another religion.

[KarenNC]

I believe you have answered your own question. One simply needs to be mindful of the Golden Rule and ones sense of conscious to know the situation is wrong.

 

How easily could the shoe be on the other foot, with prayers being framed to exclude your faith group were you in the minority?

 

It is especially noble, in my opinion, to speak when we are a member of the majority and we see a wrong being committed against a minority. It is easy (but ignoble) to act only when one is in the transgressed minority or to be silent when part of the transgressing majority.

 

:iagree::hurray:

[Mrs Mungo]

To me, there is a distinct difference between teaching religion as a subject, and the practice of religion. I learned about Confucius, the Buddha, Taoism, Islam, Paganism, and other religions when I was in public school. None of those lessons ever involved me having to follow someone in a prayer, or making professions of faith.

 

The Muslim charter schools in question have Muslim prayers and specific prayer times. The same is true of the Christian charter schools. They aren't teaching "about" religion, they are practicing religious schools. One of these charter schools got in trouble in Minnesota for using taxpayer money to "further Islam," but that seems to be because they were actually transferring money to Islamic groups, not because they were teaching Islam in the school? There are Islamic and Christian charter schools in several states. It seems there is a lot of testing of the law to go before it is decided whether it's allowable?

 

eta: Do you all remember the charter school that insisted kids had to buy the school lunch? That was allowable and would not be allowable for a public school. Therefore, they are clearly operating under some different rules.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[ezrabean2005]

The Muslim charter schools in question have Muslim prayers and specific prayer times. The same is true of the Christian charter schools. They aren't teaching "about" religion, they are practicing religious schools. One of these charter schools got in trouble in Minnesota for using taxpayer money to "further Islam," but that seems to be because they were actually transferring money to Islamic groups, not because they were teaching Islam in the school? There are Islamic and Christian charter schools in several states (to include Florida, that's where the OP is from, right?). It seems there is a lot of testing of the law to go before it is decided whether it's allowable?

 

This is where I live. Here's an article about it -- it has less to do with prayers and more to do with finances.

http://www.startribune.com/local/south/119102219.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarek_ibn_Ziyad_Academy

Edited April 20, 2012 by ezrabean2005

[Melinda in VT]

The Muslim charter schools in question have Muslim prayers and specific prayer times. The same is true of the Christian charter schools. They aren't teaching "about" religion, they are practicing religious schools. One of these charter schools got in trouble in Minnesota for using taxpayer money to "further Islam," but that seems to be because they were actually transferring money to Islamic groups, not because they were teaching Islam in the school? There are Islamic and Christian charter schools in several states. It seems there is a lot of testing of the law to go before it is decided whether it's allowable?

 

eta: Do you all remember the charter school that insisted kids had to buy the school lunch? That was allowable and would not be allowable for a public school. Therefore, they are clearly operating under some different rules.

 

If this were a charter school that advertised that it was a Religion X School, I would feel differently about the prayer at the concert. I'm assuming, based on what I know of the area (not Florida), that no such advertising/decision was made. The school admins are just assuming that everyone is from X religion because that is the dominant religion of the area. (OP, feel free to correct my assumptions if they are wrong.)