Should I say something? Prayer at public charter homeschool event.

[Julie in Austin]

Just one more thing: I think frequently concern about prayer in a school is not really about prayer in school, but is about whether the administrators consider the school to be a seamless extension of their church. If they won't draw a line here, will they draw it in a health class or a history class or a science class, if the things normally taught there contradict what their faith teaches them?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

The school in question is a charter school. Therefore, the kids are *also* there by choice.

 

Charter schools are funded by public monies and are supposed to abide by our laws. Charter schools are public schools.

[Jen500]

Just one more thing: I think frequently concern about prayer in a school is not really about prayer in school, but is about whether the administrators consider the school to be a seamless extension of their church. If they won't draw a line here, will they draw it in a health class or a history class or a science class, if the things normally taught there contradict what their faith teaches them?

 

:iagree:

[Mrs Mungo]

Charter schools are funded by public monies and are supposed to abide by our laws. Charter schools are public schools.

 

First, did you even read the court decisions posted by various people? In no way is there a clear cut law that says you cannot have prayer of any kind at a public event. Court decisions really split hairs down to specific venue, who says it, who approves it, whether it could be seen as proselytizing, etc.

 

Second, there seem to be sectarian charter schools in various states, which belies your statement that charter schools must always follow the same rules and regulations as regular public schools in that regard. In other regards, we know that they are *not* required to follow the same laws, rules and regulations as regular public schools.

 

I have no problem with someone lodging a personal complaint or mere suggestion that events should be more inclusive. But, it is wrong to say that the law clearly forbids what took place in this case.

 

And no, I don't think a prayer opens the door for prayers to fake deities that nobody sincerely believes in. That is just silly.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Mrs Mungo
Typing on phone=typos. :(

[tristangrace]

To me minority or majority religion is irrelevant to the legal matter. The legal matter is whether one wants public officials to officiate/endorse any religion in their official capacity.

 

 

 

The parent of a child enrolled in the charter school is not a public official acting in an official capacity.

[kalanamak]

Whether it's illegal or not, I think it's unkind to make others feel isolated and uncomfortable.

 

:iagree:But perhaps those 70% either don't care how others feel or are trying to make them uncomfortable and squeeze them out. I don't know that I'd drop a charter school over it, but I wouldn't be going to meetings like that, and I'd be watching whatever else they were pushing like a hawk.

 

But, as my mother used to say "freedom of religion" doesn't mean freedom FROM religion. And, as my sister says, when someone keeps going on and on about God, God, God, God, just readjust your hearing to Good, Good, Good, Good. Minorities have had to adjust their pace down through history, keeping silent, putting up with, withstanding being treated differently. A non-believer in our country is no different. I'd roll my eyes internally but keep them skinned for frank discrimination, and just skip the next meeting. YMMV.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

First, did you even read the court decisions post by various people? In no way is there a clear cut law that says you cannot have prayer of any kind at a public event. Court decisions really splot hairs down to specific venue, who says it, who approves it, whether it could be seen as proselytizing, etc.

 

Second, there seem to be sectarian charter schools in various states, which belies your statement that charter schools must always follow the same rules and regulations as regular public schools in that regard. In other regards, we know that they are *not* required to follow the same laws, rules and regulations as regular public schools.

 

I have no problem with someone lodging a personal complaint or mere suggestion that events should be more inclusive. But, it is wrong to say that the law clearly forbids what took place in this case.

 

And no, I don't think a prayer opens the door for prayers to fake deities that nobody sincerely believes in. That is just silly.

 

I understand the Courts have split hairs unto the venues but it is my understanding that prayer cannot be officiated at public schools. Public schools and charter schools are my main concern here since that involves children although the other venues may be a concern as well.

 

I have read many articles on charters since it is a interest of mine. The ones of I have read of have made it clear that charter schools cannot officiate prayers. The states I am familiar with definitely have charters abide by these rules.

 

For the record, I believe in prayer and prayed many times and never felt that I could not pray in any school.

 

I agree that I used an extreme example, but I still think the door is open for prayers that others do not agree with when we allow prayers to be officiated in public schools.

[ktgrok]

The Hail Mary is a Christian prayer.

 

Yes, but many self professed Christians would NOT be ok with it. We all know that many believe that it would be "praying to a saint" and not ok.

[ktgrok]

My reading was that that was her point.

 

yes, it was.

[ktgrok]

Having lived in many places where my religion is not the majority I can say with absolutely no equivocation that I would have NO issue with it.

 

What people here forget is that sometimes the majority do get their own way. It is NOT an infringement of rights that someone might listen to a prayer to something that they do not believe in. It is not illegal, it is not unconstitutional, it is simply part of living in a society.

 

No one is asking you to believe (though in places that I have been {overseas} there IS real pressure to conform) simply to be quiet and listen politely. If that is too much of a burden then then the anti-social and intolerant behavior is yours not the person praying.

 

But it is favoring one religion, the majority religion, over another. That is NOT allowed, nor should it be, in our country. I'm saying, that if you are ok with YOUR religion being shown and expressed on stage at a public event you need to be ok with others being in the same spotlight, in front of your kids. Yes, in other countries they only allow the majority religion to be showcased, because they have a state sponsored religion. We do not, and the founding fathers made sure of that.

 

So again, if you are in favor of ALL religions being able to pray on stage, chant, etc, then fine. You are consistent and I think that makes sense. If you dont' want Santeria or Wicca allowed in your public schools, than you don't want freedom of religion, you want your religion.

[ktgrok]

It is relevant since it has *repeatedly* been asked how I would feel if I were in the minority religion. I have been there. Therefore, I can answer that question quite honestly.

 

.

 

Yes, but was it in a country with a state sponsored religion, in which case it is expected that the majority religion is the one expressed, or in our country, where there is no established religion, and all religions should be treated equally by the government?

[justasque]

As a reference, folks might want to take a look at this; I think it is a pretty decent resource for understanding how the government draws the line between protecting individuals' rights to religious expression on the one hand, and the need for people acting as agents of the state to avoid showing favor to one religion over another, on the other hand.

 

This is from 2003, from the Federal Dept of Ed:

Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools

 

Putting aside any of my own beliefs of what would and would not be appropriate, my reading of the DOE document would be that the parent, in this case, was acting as basically a proxy for the school official, and thus the prayer was not, according to the DOE guidelines, appropriate.

 

The Supreme Court's decisions over the past forty years set forth principles that distinguish impermissible governmental religious speech from the constitutionally protected private religious speech of students. For example, teachers and other public school officials may not lead their classes in prayer, devotional readings from the Bible, or other religious activities. [ 4 ] Nor may school officials attempt to persuade or compel students to participate in prayer or other religious activities. [ 5 ] Such conduct is "attributable to the State" and thus violates the Establishment Clause. [ 6 ]

 

Similarly, public school officials may not themselves decide that prayer should be included in school-sponsored events. In Lee v. Weisman [ 7 ], for example, the Supreme Court held that public school officials violated the Constitution in inviting a member of the clergy to deliver a prayer at a graduation ceremony. Nor may school officials grant religious speakers preferential access to public audiences, or otherwise select public speakers on a basis that favors religious speech. In Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe [ 8 ], for example, the Court invalidated a school's football game speaker policy on the ground that it was designed by school officials to result in pregame prayer, thus favoring religious expression over secular expression.

 

Now, 2003 is a while back, and I don't know if there is an updated document out there somewhere.

Edited April 21, 2012 by askPauline

[Mrs Mungo]

But it is favoring one religion, the majority religion, over another. That is NOT allowed, nor should it be, in our country. I'm saying, that if you are ok with YOUR religion being shown and expressed on stage at a public event you need to be ok with others being in the same spotlight, in front of your kids. Yes, in other countries they only allow the majority religion to be showcased, because they have a state sponsored religion. We do not, and the founding fathers made sure of that.

 

So again, if you are in favor of ALL religions being able to pray on stage, chant, etc, then fine. You are consistent and I think that makes sense. If you dont' want Santeria or Wicca allowed in your public schools, than you don't want freedom of religion, you want your religion.

 

My kids have heard Buddhists and Sikhs and Jews and Muslims. That is exactly what I am saying. *I* do not care if those people sometimes lead prayer in the US, as long is it does not actively promote Islam or Judaism as the one true religion, etc. That is also the standard for Christian (of all flavors) prayer in official settings.

 

http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/2012/01/shocker-supreme-court-lets-stand-lower-benchs-ban-saying-jesus-too-often

[PIE!]

Wow - this is long and I haven't read anywhere near all the posts, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating someone.

 

But I have no problem at all with public prayer. A prayer at a school (or any) event doesn't bother me. AND I don't have a problem with any particular religion offering the prayer. If someone is not praying to "my" god (as often happens), then I just wait respectfully for them to finish without participating. I like my kids to see such things and understand that the world has many beliefs, and we need to respect them.

 

If I were to write a letter, it would not be to discourage prayer, but to encourage diversity in prayer. If 70% of the people at these events are of one particular religion, then maybe have 70% of the prayers from them, and 30% of the time ask the others. When encouraging diversity, it would be unfair to exclude the majority too.

[pqr]

But it is favoring one religion, the majority religion, over another. That is NOT allowed, nor should it be, in our country. I'm saying, that if you are ok with YOUR religion being shown and expressed on stage at a public event you need to be ok with others being in the same spotlight, in front of your kids. Yes, in other countries they only allow the majority religion to be showcased, because they have a state sponsored religion. We do not, and the founding fathers made sure of that.

 

So again, if you are in favor of ALL religions being able to pray on stage, chant, etc, then fine. You are consistent and I think that makes sense. If you dont' want Santeria or Wicca allowed in your public schools, than you don't want freedom of religion, you want your religion.

 

As I said I have no issue with various religious prayers on a stage, but the majority must have the preponderance of the time. If a school was mainly Muslim , I would not have issue with primarily Muslim prayers, in the similar vein this would apply to others. I would never deem it appropriate to be so intolerant and lacking of respect that I would demand that the majority of a population not be able to offer a prayer. That would be outrageous and completely lacking in what I would deem manners. If I was a little uncomfortable so be it, it is part of living in a society and showing a little respect to others.

 

This demand that we all be protected from feeling a little uncomfortable is not something I would encourage.Who am I to tell a community that they may not say a prayer? Now if they violate my rights in forcing me to participate, if they insist that my children "believe," if they condemn me or my beliefs directly then we have an issue. Asking me to stand quietly is wholly appropriate...why are we even debating this? Surely this is a simple matter of respect?

 

My children have witnessed many religions and we speak about their beliefs. I am not so insular or afraid that my beliefs are untenable that I would ever have issue with others expressing their religious beliefs.

 

Frankly this seems more a case of people looking for a means to be offended than anything else.

Edited April 21, 2012 by pqr

[Georgiana Daniels]

I read the whole thread! I read the whole thread!

:hurray::hurray::hurray:

 

 

 

As long as no one is being persecuted or oppressed, I think it's way more important to focus on issues like whether or not the kids in the school are receiving a quality education (in the charter school they opted to attend.) If someone of another faith is feeling excluded, then why not ask to lead the next prayer?

[NASDAQ]

My children have witnessed many religions and we speak about their beliefs. I am not so insular or afraid that my beliefs are untenable that I would ever have issue with others expressing their religious beliefs.

 

So people who don't want prayer in public schools are insecure in their beliefs? I would bet good money (and there's research to support this) that Jews and atheists are much more aware of Christian beliefs than Christians are of what minority religions believe. You _choose_ to expose your children to other religions. Our children are exposed to a religion foreign to them, every day, whether we prefer that or not.

 

You talk about insularity. Do you realise that by encouraging my children to participate in things that are inappropriate for our religion, you force us to be isolated and insular? My kids can't participate in a Christmas pageant, and I cannot leave my six-year-old at a place where she will be encouraged to pray to a deity or form of deity that we don't believe in.

 

If being socially respectable is important to you, then accept than for the _majority_ of Americans, the public or publicly funded schools are not an appropriate place for school. The respectful, social thing to do is to realise that this is, yes, one place in your entire life that you will not be able to pray a specific prayer to your religion.

[catz]

Whatever comes of it I think you are a very considerate and thoughtful person. Thanks. :001_smile:

 

:iagree: Thank you Veritaserum for saying something! :hurray:

[AvasMom]

Ok, if I may butt in here a bit...I've spent the day at the Cincy convention and just really appreciate the fact that, as long as everyone continues behaving like adults, we have a place for people of various beliefs to discuss issues like this. The Hive is awesome...even those of you that are WRONG (kidding!!). :D

[pqr]

My kids can't participate in a Christmas pageant, and I cannot leave my six-year-old at a place where she will be encouraged to pray to a deity or form of deity that we don't believe in.

 

.

 

Actually I am certain that your children could participate. You do not want them to and that is fine there is no issue there but should schools no longer have Christmas pageants? Do we play these silly games about "Winter Holidays" rather than Christmas break?

 

I have spent much of my life in countries where my religion is the minority and frankly it is not a big deal, there were other things that were far harder to deal with. Now were one in some nations where forced conversion is the norm or where there is deliberate and legal discrimination then it is a big deal but that is certainly not the case in the US.

 

NOBODY should encourage your child to pray if you do not want them to. I am in lockstep with you on that one but there must be some consideration given to the wishes of others. Should a student be able to pray before a game? Should that student be able to lead other students in prayer? Can a teacher say Merry Christmas?

[pqr]

S

 

If being socially respectable is important to you, then accept than for the _majority_ of Americans, the public or publicly funded schools are not an appropriate place for school. The respectful, social thing to do is to realise that this is, yes, one place in your entire life that you will not be able to pray a specific prayer to your religion.

 

You may be wrong in that, the most recent poll I could find says that some 65% of Americans favor voluntary prayer in school.

 

Anyway as long as there are exams or football games there WILL be prayer in school :-)

[Danestress]

Should a student be able to pray before a game? Should that student be able to lead other students in prayer? Can a teacher say Merry Christmas?

 

but the one described by the OP isn't one of them. It's pretty clear based on precedent you could easily find doing a google search that this is not ok in US public schools. It's great you have lived in another country where you were a religious minority. I have too, and it was an interesting experience but not something that really sways the Supreme Court in interpreting the constitution.

 

This is just settled law. I guess people can debate whether they like the law, but it's still the law.

[pqr]

It's great you have lived in another country where you were a religious minority. I have too, and it was an interesting experience but not something that really sways the Supreme Court in interpreting the constitution.

 

This is just settled law. I guess people can debate whether they like the law, but it's still the law.

 

I agree foreign law and the norms in another nation should NEVER intrude on Supreme Court decisions. Drives me nuts when people argue that they should.

 

The point I was making is that I do understand what it is like to be a religious minority not that we should adopt foreign practices.

[YLVD]

of course not. there would be UPROAR.

 

 

I can't believe people think this is at all ok in 2012.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm honestly offended by this thread, as an atheist.

[YLVD]

:iagree:

The same would happen here.

I'd write a letter.

 

Same here

 

It makes me so thankful to live in an area like this and reaffirms that I need to stay here.

[YLVD]

I personally think there is a place for public prayer in our society. When I was in the military important events always began with a prayer, and in spite of the fact that nearly all those prayers were offered by people of faiths other than my own, I appreciated them. Acknowledging publicly that God is significant to a large portion of our society is not wrong, nor should it be offensive. There are enough venues where God is left out! If we are going to start taking offense I think those who are religious have just as much cause to be offended by the lack of acknowledgment of God in most school, civic and social events.

 

So, if I don't believe, I'm just supposed to suck it up and go along? Why are my beliefs, or lack of beliefs, not respected? I have no problem with people praying, but there is no need to do it and trample over the rights of other people.

[Pink Fairy]

I'm not a fan.

 

At the same time, I think life is so comfortable in our country that people can afford to spend their extra energy being hurt and offended.

 

As someone who isn't LDS, I wouldn't have complained. I would have discussed it with my children.

[Maus]

I was at the same event as my children participate in the same program. I'm going to provide some further detail to see if that changes any opinions at all.

 

The children are technically charter students, but....

 

An outside, private business, which specializes in consulting with charter schools to help them make a profit, set up the program. They find charter schools who haven't filled up their enrollment space and they pair them with homeschoolers. More than half of our Co-op signed up. The teachers in the program are a mix of homeschool moms and recently graduated Ed majors trying to get the extra two years beyond student teaching in that they need to get certified.

 

The director in question, who asked a parent to give a prayer, is, I believe, not an employee of the school, but rather an employee of the private business who created the program. At least, her email address is theirs and not the schools.

 

Therefore, I doubt she was acting illegally, but it was insensitive.

 

This was the third recital we've attended there, but the first time a prayer was offered.

[Amira]

Maus, I'm curious if the coop is LDS, or was there any indication that the event was being put on by a Mormon group?

[Rosie_0801]

Would most people's objections be resolved if they'd opened the floor to anyone of any other tradition? 30% of the population is unlikely to provide enough people into public prayer to make the concert run late.

 

 

Rosie

[Melinda in VT]

Would most people's objections be resolved if they'd opened the floor to anyone of any other tradition? 30% of the population is unlikely to provide enough people into public prayer to make the concert run late.

 

 

Rosie

 

:lol:

 

I'm laughing, not at your comment, but at my instinctual, raised-Mormon response: "But you can't do that! You can't have more than one opening prayer!"

 

<sigh>

[Lisbeth]

So, if I don't believe, I'm just supposed to suck it up and go along? Why are my beliefs, or lack of beliefs, not respected? I have no problem with people praying, but there is no need to do it and trample over the rights of other people.

 

My parents are atheists. They raised me as one, though I am not now one. My parents feelings were never so tender as to be offended by prayer. No one is forcing anyone else to pray. I think we have gotten so touchy in this society.

[KarenNC]

I was at the same event as my children participate in the same program. I'm going to provide some further detail to see if that changes any opinions at all.

 

The children are technically charter students, but....

 

An outside, private business, which specializes in consulting with charter schools to help them make a profit, set up the program. They find charter schools who haven't filled up their enrollment space and they pair them with homeschoolers. More than half of our Co-op signed up. The teachers in the program are a mix of homeschool moms and recently graduated Ed majors trying to get the extra two years beyond student teaching in that they need to get certified.

 

The director in question, who asked a parent to give a prayer, is, I believe, not an employee of the school, but rather an employee of the private business who created the program. At least, her email address is theirs and not the schools.

 

Therefore, I doubt she was acting illegally, but it was insensitive.

 

This was the third recital we've attended there, but the first time a prayer was offered.

 

I'd wonder (and ask) why things have changed so that there is now a prayer when there had not been one before. This shoots a hole in the argument "but it's our culture/tradition to always have an opening prayer at all school activities"--obviously that's not the case.

 

If it is a school-sponsored function, advertised through the school, held on school grounds with only school students and their families in attendance, designed to exhibit skills learned in a school program and paid for with school funds, well--if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims, lays eggs and has feathers it's more likely to be judged a duck than an elephant. It would seem disingenuous to try to claim she was not acting as a representative of the school. If this was a program showcasing skills learned in an outside class paid for by the parent group and they were just renting the space, it would be a different matter (like a dance school that rents a public school auditorium for their recital, for instance).

 

It should be fairly obvious whether this was a school function or an outside function. If it is a school function, I would no more find a public corporate prayer by the representative appropriate than I would when I go pay my water bill or renew my license plate. It is a government-related activity, not a worship service.

 

Overall, I really question the insistence in some areas for public prayer in inappropriate activities despite protests. I see this as different from the groups who truly simply didn't think about others in the situation----those people are likely to change their behavior when made aware. It's the ones who are going to pray whatever the situation and only do so more loudly and frequently when the concerns and legal issues are pointed out. Honestly, in our area, it often seems to be more about an act of aggression or public display than an actual act of piety. The goal seems to be to show everyone how Christian one is or to use public prayer to "stick it to the man" to show how above the law one should be because of one's religion, which is diametrically opposed to Jesus' instructions on prayer in Matthew 6:5-6.

[susankenny]

Charter schools are funded by public monies and are supposed to abide by our laws. Charter schools are public schools.

 

True, but it has already been pointed out that the school may not have broken the law. There seems to be an exception if staff are not leading the prayer.

 

Even in a past thread I see that you complained that religious schools had no right to ask individuals to sign a statement of faith. You were very offended by that too. So really, it seems religious people are the only ones that should extend tolerance in your eyes.

 

Susan

[susankenny]

Yes, but many self professed Christians would NOT be ok with it. We all know that many believe that it would be "praying to a saint" and not ok.

 

I have been to catholic mass and to catholic weddings. I am NOT catholic and still was able to appreciate the beauty of a faith I don't abide by. If I was at an event that was predominantly Catholic, I would not be offended by the hail Mary. Yes, it is clear that YOU would be very offended, but stop speaking for people other than yourself.

 

Susan

[susankenny]

Actually I am certain that your children could participate. You do not want them to and that is fine there is no issue there but should schools no longer have Christmas pageants? Do we play these silly games about "Winter Holidays" rather than Christmas break?

 

I have spent much of my life in countries where my religion is the minority and frankly it is not a big deal, there were other things that were far harder to deal with. Now were one in some nations where forced conversion is the norm or where there is deliberate and legal discrimination then it is a big deal but that is certainly not the case in the US.

 

NOBODY should encourage your child to pray if you do not want them to. I am in lockstep with you on that one but there must be some consideration given to the wishes of others. Should a student be able to pray before a game? Should that student be able to lead other students in prayer? Can a teacher say Merry Christmas?

 

Thank you. I really agree.

 

Susan

[pqr]

So really, it seems religious people are the only ones that should extend tolerance in your eyes.

 

Susan

 

Is that not the crux of the issue? There appears to be no tolerance for the beliefs of the majority, no concession on the part of the minority and no acceptance that in a free society (as long as the rights of one group are not being violated) we should allow people to behave in a manner consistent with their beliefs.

 

This thread has displayed unfettered arrogance that simply because "I do not like it" you must stop your behavior despite the fact that it infringes on no one. Here is the argument to tear down nativity scenes, to remove crosses and menorahs from parks, to forbid students from saying a prayer, to modify city crests and mottos, to tear down our history in order to assuage the feelings of people who are in many cases simply looking for a reason to be offended.

 

A prayer calling down blessings on a group should be meaningful to adherents and taken as being kind, generous, quaint or even rather silly by others but to be offended is indicative of a degree of intolerance. I have had people of other religions offer blessings and was honored despite the fact that I do not accept that their beliefs are correct; they did in in a sense of kindness and caring and I tried to reciprocate.

Edited April 21, 2012 by pqr

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

True, but it has already been pointed out that the school may not have broken the law. There seems to be an exception if staff are not leading the prayer.

 

Even in a past thread I see that you complained that religious schools had no right to ask individuals to sign a statement of faith. You were very offended by that too. So really, it seems religious people are the only ones that should extend tolerance in your eyes.

 

Susan

 

I never said religious schools have "no right" to ask someone to sign a statement of faith. Of course, private religious schools have that right. It does not mean that I have to agree that it is very Christian behavior on their part or that I have to agree that it is right in a moral sense.

 

My ds and I have attended private religious schools and we never had to sign a statement of faith period. We were informed that these are the beliefs of the school and to respect them for my ds's schools which we happily did. So actually we are very tolerant:D. The school I attended exempted those not of the faith from religion class and from religious services if they desired from what I recall. To me these schools acted more Christ like than those that require a statement of faith to be signed.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Is that not the crux of the issue? There appears to be no tolerance for the beliefs of the majority, no concession on the part of the minority and no acceptance that in a free society (as long as the rights of one group are not being violated) we should allow people to behave in a manner consistent with their beliefs.

 

This thread has displayed unfettered arrogance that simply because "I do not like it" you must stop your behavior despite the fact that it infringes on no one. Here is the argument to tear down nativity scenes, to remove crosses and menorahs from parks, to forbid students from saying a prayer, to modify city crests and mottos, to tear down our history in order to assuage the feelings of people who are in many cases simply looking for a reason to be offended.

 

A prayer calling down blessings on a group should be meaningful to adherents and taken as being kind, generous, quaint or even rather silly by others but to be offended is indicative of a degree of intolerance. I have had people of other religions offer blessings and was honored despite the fact that I do not accept that their beliefs are correct; they did in in a sense of kindness and caring and I tried to reciprocate.

This issue has nothing to do with tolerance at all. It has to do with officiating/endorsing of religion by public schools period.

 

I daresay that many who have voiced concerns over the risk of state religion are very tolerant IMO. I know that my family is tolerant. We have happily participated and prayed in many private school and homeschool functions where prayer is present even though our beliefs are different in many cases. However, we chose to participate in these events which did not take place at public schools or public charter schools where often the participants do not have other choices for schooling.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I have been to catholic mass and to catholic weddings. I am NOT catholic and still was able to appreciate the beauty of a faith I don't abide by. If I was at an event that was predominantly Catholic, I would not be offended by the hail Mary. Yes, it is clear that YOU would be very offended, but stop speaking for people other than yourself.

 

Susan

 

Again, IMO this has nothing to do with tolerance or taking offense. This issue has to do with honoring the separation of church and state IMO.

[SKL]

I'm getting confused. Are we saying that the prayer equaled the state establishing a religion, or are we saying that no speaker at a public assembly should utter words that are not the shared belief of 100% of the audience? Because if the latter is the ideal, we probably need to outlaw public speaking.

 

I personally think that everyone should feel free to pray publicly if that's what they want to do, and everyone who doesn't want to participate should feel free to spend that time contemplating their grocery list. Even when I'm in church, I don't bow my head and fold my hands when a prayer is going on. I keep a respectful silence and look around to see who all is in attendance and what new decorations they have up. Group prayer isn't generally my thing, but it doesn't burn my ears to hear it. If it makes some people happy, that's great. IMO, people who get offended by (or protest) other people's prayers are no better than those who harass/isolate folks for wearing faith-related headwear and so on. I don't understand why some people are angry and offended by other people's pursuit of comfort/happiness/peace. Nobody is forcing YOU to pray or give a donation or whatever. It's kinda like someone publicly acknowledging his gay relationship. It's not my cup of tea, but I'd rather see that person happy than make him conform unhappily to the way I do things.

[clarkacademy]

I'm getting confused. Are we saying that the prayer equaled the state establishing a religion, or are we saying that no speaker at a public assembly should utter words that are not the shared belief of 100% of the audience? Because if the latter is the ideal, we probably need to outlaw public speaking.

 

I personally think that everyone should feel free to pray publicly if that's what they want to do, and everyone who doesn't want to participate should feel free to spend that time contemplating their grocery list. Even when I'm in church, I don't bow my head and fold my hands when a prayer is going on. I keep a respectful silence and look around to see who all is in attendance and what new decorations they have up. Group prayer isn't generally my thing, but it doesn't burn my ears to hear it. If it makes some people happy, that's great. IMO, people who get offended by (or protest) other people's prayers are no better than those who harass/isolate folks for wearing faith-related headwear and so on. I don't understand why some people are angry and offended by other people's pursuit of comfort/happiness/peace. Nobody is forcing YOU to pray or give a donation or whatever. It's kinda like someone publicly acknowledging his gay relationship. It's not my cup of tea, but I'd rather see that person happy than make him conform unhappily to the way I do things.

 

:iagree:100 times! I wish we had a I love this button!

[mommaduck]

I'm getting confused. Are we saying that the prayer equaled the state establishing a religion, or are we saying that no speaker at a public assembly should utter words that are not the shared belief of 100% of the audience? Because if the latter is the ideal, we probably need to outlaw public speaking.

 

I personally think that everyone should feel free to pray publicly if that's what they want to do, and everyone who doesn't want to participate should feel free to spend that time contemplating their grocery list. Even when I'm in church, I don't bow my head and fold my hands when a prayer is going on. I keep a respectful silence and look around to see who all is in attendance and what new decorations they have up. Group prayer isn't generally my thing, but it doesn't burn my ears to hear it. If it makes some people happy, that's great. IMO, people who get offended by (or protest) other people's prayers are no better than those who harass/isolate folks for wearing faith-related headwear and so on. I don't understand why some people are angry and offended by other people's pursuit of comfort/happiness/peace. Nobody is forcing YOU to pray or give a donation or whatever. It's kinda like someone publicly acknowledging his gay relationship. It's not my cup of tea, but I'd rather see that person happy than make him conform unhappily to the way I do things.

:iagree: Believe me, I've been known to sit nursing in another room to avoid being "part of" someone praying. I didn't have a problem with them sharing their faith. (I had an issue with the hypocrisy of the person "praying" and the "ooooohhhh, God! We pppprrrraaayyy in your naaammmee!" bunk) Really, it would not bother me, as long as they didn't expect me to participate.

[Ipsey]

I have been to catholic mass and to catholic weddings. I am NOT catholic and still was able to appreciate the beauty of a faith I don't abide by. If I was at an event that was predominantly Catholic, I would not be offended by the hail Mary. Yes, it is clear that YOU would be very offended, but stop speaking for people other than yourself.

 

Susan

 

I have been to Catholic weddings and Islamic weddings. I have been to prayer meetings of all sorts of faiths. I have been preached at by any number of people trying to convert me, even at my own doorstep. It's fine. I'm "tolerant" and respectful and have no problem with it (apart from being annoyed at folks at my door who bother me when I'm trying to school my children and won't leave me the heck alone.)

 

I think being at a public event, where religion is supposedly not to be promoted, and being exhorted to pray in the name of (or otherwise recognize) a deity is different than going to Mass or Fast Sunday meeting, etc.

 

I know some people see no difference, but there are many, many, many of us who do. Even some religious people, I imagine.

[Maus]

Maus, I'm curious if the coop is LDS, or was there any indication that the event was being put on by a Mormon group?

The Co-op, which doesn't exist anymore, since so many of the members joined this other program, promoted itself as inclusive with a caveat in it's mission statement. As I recall it said something like this, ” we are an inclusive group, which welcomes families of all faiths and homeschooling styles, but be aware that the vast majority of our members are LDS, so LDS themes are frequently discussed.” Most of the children addressed their teachers as ”Sister” rather than ”Mrs.” until the switch to this other program. Edited April 21, 2012 by Maus
grammar mistake

[susankenny]

I have been to Catholic weddings and Islamic weddings. I have been to prayer meetings of all sorts of faiths. I have been preached at by any number of people trying to convert me, even at my own doorstep. It's fine. I'm "tolerant" and respectful and have no problem with it (apart from being annoyed at folks at my door who bother me when I'm trying to school my children and won't leave me the heck alone.)

 

I think being at a public event, where religion is supposedly not to be promoted, and being exhorted to pray in the name of (or otherwise recognize) a deity is different than going to Mass or Fast Sunday meeting, etc.

 

I know some people see no difference, but there are many, many, many of us who do. Even some religious people, I imagine.

 

I get it, but my post was in reference to how the poster implied most Christians would be highly offended if someone said the hail Mary. My response was, if it was a predominantly catholic event I can't say that I would be offended.

 

But to be even clearer, the original post was nothing of the sort, the comparison is a weak argument to begin with honestly. The predominant faith being represented was Mormons, yet it isn't as though they read out of the Articles of Faith. It wasn't even specific to Mormonism at all. It was a generic prayer to bless the fellowship or something of the sorts.

 

Susan

[susankenny]

I'm getting confused. Are we saying that the prayer equaled the state establishing a religion, or are we saying that no speaker at a public assembly should utter words that are not the shared belief of 100% of the audience? Because if the latter is the ideal, we probably need to outlaw public speaking.

 

I personally think that everyone should feel free to pray publicly if that's what they want to do, and everyone who doesn't want to participate should feel free to spend that time contemplating their grocery list. Even when I'm in church, I don't bow my head and fold my hands when a prayer is going on. I keep a respectful silence and look around to see who all is in attendance and what new decorations they have up. Group prayer isn't generally my thing, but it doesn't burn my ears to hear it. If it makes some people happy, that's great. IMO, people who get offended by (or protest) other people's prayers are no better than those who harass/isolate folks for wearing faith-related headwear and so on. I don't understand why some people are angry and offended by other people's pursuit of comfort/happiness/peace. Nobody is forcing YOU to pray or give a donation or whatever. It's kinda like someone publicly acknowledging his gay relationship. It's not my cup of tea, but I'd rather see that person happy than make him conform unhappily to the way I do things.

 

:iagree:

[Maus]

I'd wonder (and ask) why things have changed so that there is now a prayer when there had not been one before. This shoots a hole in the argument "but it's our culture/tradition to always have an opening prayer at all school activities"--obviously that's not the case.[/Quote]

I don't recall the director being present at the previous two events. One of the dance teachers welcomed everyone and announced the program the previous times. The teachers are very young.

 

The director is a little older than I. When I was growing up in this area, it was the tradition to start every event, school or other otherwise, with a prayer. It still is, outside of the school setting. (DH is a member of the local Barbershop Harmony Society chapter. They start their concerts with a prayer. His company Christmas party started with a prayer on the food.)

 

If it is a school-sponsored function, advertised through the school, held on school grounds with only school students and their families in attendance, designed to exhibit skills learned in a school program and paid for with school funds, well--if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims, lays eggs and has feathers it's more likely to be judged a duck than an elephant. It would seem disingenuous to try to claim she was not acting as a representative of the school. If this was a program showcasing skills learned in an outside class paid for by the parent group and they were just renting the space, it would be a different matter (like a dance school that rents a public school auditorium for their recital, for instance).

 

It should be fairly obvious whether this was a school function or an outside function. If it is a school function, I would no more find a public corporate prayer by the representative appropriate than I would when I go pay my water bill or renew my license plate. It is a government-related activity, not a worship service.[/Quote]

Not as obvious as it could be. The advertising for the event was in notes home to the parents from the teachers, a notice on the front page of the coordinating business' webpage, and a mass email to all participant in the program from the business/director. So not advertised through the school.

 

It was held on the grounds of the same school where we attend classes. None of the students of the school (a charter high school) were in attendance, unless the sound tech guy was one of their students (looked more like a dance teacher's husband). All of the attendees were the children from the partner program (ages 5-16ish, mostly 5-11), their parents, and extended family members.

 

In terms of who paid for it, ah, that's complicated. The charter school in the three way partnership gets the state money (~$2500) allotted for each student, because they are legally enrolled there. The charter school pays the business a fairly significant portion of that for their providing the students. The teachers are paid by the business, not the school (they aren't paid much, though, as I hear from a friend of mine who is one of the teachers.) The parents are paid a reimbursement for curriculum by the business, not the school, as an incentive to participate. (They can afford to give us $300 per student, so that gives you an idea how much they are getting paid by the school.)

Overall, I really question the insistence in some areas for public prayer in inappropriate activities despite protests. I see this as different from the groups who truly simply didn't think about others in the situation----those people are likely to change their behavior when made aware. It's the ones who are going to pray whatever the situation and only do so more loudly and frequently when the concerns and legal issues are pointed out. Honestly, in our area, it often seems to be more about an act of aggression or public display than an actual act of piety. The goal seems to be to show everyone how Christian one is or to use public prayer to "stick it to the man" to show how above the law one should be because of one's religion, which is diametrically opposed to Jesus' instructions on prayer in Matthew 6:5-6.

I'm quite certain the director just didn't think about it. If she isn't an employee of the school, and I don't believe she is, she wouldn't have had any training about school policy.

 

FWIW, the prayer was the short, "Bless everyone to do their best, and help us all get home safely" that is typical of our area. (Given the massive reconstruction of the freeway we all had to traverse to get there, the second part is more needed than usual :lol: ) Sadly, no refreshments, so no blessing on the food, which always cracks me up...( "Bless these donuts and soda pop that they may nourish us..." seems like such a lost cause! :lol::lol:)

[2_girls_mommy]

All public school events that I have ever been to usually have a prayer: sporting events, high school graduations and what not. I went to public school and many of my family members teach in them now. Plus with all of my cousins' sporting events and such I have been to a lot. We are in different states in different cities and towns. And I have traveled for many away games and such too. It is pretty normal to have prayers included.

[susankenny]

All public school events that I have ever been to usually have a prayer: sporting events, high school graduations and what not. I went to public school and many of my family members teach in them now. Plus with all of my cousins' sporting events and such I have been to a lot. We are in different states in different cities and towns. And I have traveled for many away games and such too. It is pretty normal to have prayers included.

 

Well, I'm going to write a note!

 

Susan