Should I say something? Prayer at public charter homeschool event.

[Danestress]

as a school administrator, I don't have to worry about who is being too sensitive, how people feel, whether someone is uncomfortable.

 

If I just check the law, it's long established and clear. No real issue.

 

As a citizen, I tend to just not get into things, so I probably wouldn't be the one to write the letter. But I guess I hope someone would remind him that our district really can't afford legal fees when people take action against what is clearly a violation of the constitution. My school district has done it before, and it's really just a way to burn through some money and still lose. I guess if people want to make a point, they may think it's worth it even though the school district WILL lose this one. But as a tax payer, I really wish they wouldn't!

[NASDAQ]

It is not possible to predetermine ahead of time who will or will not feel isolated or uncomfortable. Someone will always feel isolated or uncomfortable. We cannot cease doing things just because random people will feel isolated or uncomfortable. Perhaps the person who feels that way should remind himself that this, too, shall pass, and let others enjoy it. Tolerance goes both ways.

 

You know, as a member of a minority religion, we get a _lot_ of chances to practice tolerance. Most chances than I honestly think members of the majority religion can comprehend, if this thread is any indication.

 

Minority kids are not raised ignorant of Christianity. Trust me; It would be impossible. And that's fine. I don't throw myself in front of church signs and Santa displays. I have taught my children to answer politely when they are wished a happy Easter or when someone asks what they are getting for Christmas. They know what a Christian is, that they believe different things, but that they are very tolerant of Jews in this country and we should be thankful for that.

 

But at this point in history, I do feel entitled to go to a public school event and not hear a prayer. This is the clear law. This is the overwhelming practice. And when someone violates it, I feel that they are expressing that this is not an event for me or for my children. This is an event for the religious majority, and they don't care that we are excluded or uncomfortable. And since we're taxpayers and citizens, I think that really sucks.

 

Allow me to speak for virtually all non-Christians: _prayer to Jesus at public events makes non-Christians feel isolated and uncomfortable._ There. It's not a hypothetical anymore.

 

And I am personally honoured when a Christian speaks up on behalf of us non-Christians. Believe it or not, it can be hard enough to be a minority without courting a reputation as the "kvetchy one who won't let us pray."

[KarenNC]

A mayor *can* legally say a prayer while serving in his/her official capacity. City counsel meetings can open with prayer.

 

The Supreme Court ruled on this issue in Marsh v. Chambers[1] in 1983, finding that the opening prayer is not an "establishment of religion" prohibited by the 1st amendment, but merely "a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country."

 

Depends on the type of prayer. http://www.wxii12.com/news/28707586/detail.html (this was last summer):

The three-judge panel of the 4th District Court of Appeals has upheld a lower court judge's decision that declared the use of sectarian prayer to open Forsyth County Board of Commissioners meetings to be unconstitutional...According to the ruling, a prayer offered at the beginning of the Dec. 17, 2007 meeting that closed with a reference to Jesus violated the Constitution by "advancing and endorsing Christianity to the exclusion of other faiths."

...According to the ruling, government entities are permitted to open their meetings with prayer only if the prayer favors no particular religion."

 

The US Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal on this one. http://www.news-record.com/blog/53964/entry/135789

[Jenny in Florida]

Most big military events begin with a prayer too. Usually, something like this: "I am going to pray in the tradition of my religion; I invite you to pray in your own tradition. Thank you, Lord, for bringing us together and allowing us this time of celebration and fellowship. Please bless this day and protect all of those here. Amen."

 

Quite frankly, I think both of those examples are inappropriate as well.

 

The problem I see with Mrs. Mungo's example is that it assumes everyone has a faith tradition. It assumes that someone who doesn't come from a faith tradition, or who has rejected one, or who comes from one that finds public prayer distasteful, doesn't have the same rights as those praying.

 

It's well established, Constitutionally, that freedom of religion includes the right not to practice any religion at all.

[Trish]

Eh, do what they do in our area. Sue! Then there are lots of stories in the paper, countersuits and so forth. For a while there it was practically its own section.

 

:D

[Jenny in Florida]

But at this point in history, I do feel entitled to go to a public school event and not hear a prayer. This is the clear law. This is the overwhelming practice. And when someone violates it, I feel that they are expressing that this is not an event for me or for my children. This is an event for the religious majority, and they don't care that we are excluded or uncomfortable. And since we're taxpayers and citizens, I think that really sucks.

 

Allow me to speak for virtually all non-Christians: _prayer to Jesus at public events makes non-Christians feel isolated and uncomfortable._ There. It's not a hypothetical anymore.

 

And I am personally honoured when a Christian speaks up on behalf of us non-Christians. Believe it or not, it can be hard enough to be a minority without courting a reputation as the "kvetchy one who won't let us pray."

 

Well said.

[mytwomonkeys]

The problem I see with Mrs. Mungo's example is that it assumes everyone has a faith tradition. It assumes that someone who doesn't come from a faith tradition, or who has rejected one, or who comes from one that finds public prayer distasteful, doesn't have the same rights as those praying.

 

It's well established, Constitutionally, that freedom of religion includes the right not to practice any religion at all.

 

i don't know. for me, it just assumes those that care to listen can pray along and those that don't care about it can just think about what they want for supper. i mean, how long can the prayer be but a couple of minutes. i'm a christian & i've tuned prayers out before where a person was just blubbering away. just because i'm there doesn't mean i have to listen or agree.

[Veritaserum]

You know, as a member of a minority religion, we get a _lot_ of chances to practice tolerance. Most chances than I honestly think members of the majority religion can comprehend, if this thread is any indication.

 

Minority kids are not raised ignorant of Christianity. Trust me; It would be impossible. And that's fine. I don't throw myself in front of church signs and Santa displays. I have taught my children to answer politely when they are wished a happy Easter or when someone asks what they are getting for Christmas. They know what a Christian is, that they believe different things, but that they are very tolerant of Jews in this country and we should be thankful for that.

 

But at this point in history, I do feel entitled to go to a public school event and not hear a prayer. This is the clear law. This is the overwhelming practice. And when someone violates it, I feel that they are expressing that this is not an event for me or for my children. This is an event for the religious majority, and they don't care that we are excluded or uncomfortable. And since we're taxpayers and citizens, I think that really sucks.

 

Allow me to speak for virtually all non-Christians: _prayer to Jesus at public events makes non-Christians feel isolated and uncomfortable._ There. It's not a hypothetical anymore.

 

And I am personally honoured when a Christian speaks up on behalf of us non-Christians. Believe it or not, it can be hard enough to be a minority without courting a reputation as the "kvetchy one who won't let us pray."

 

:grouphug: It's families like yours I'm thinking of.

[Rivka]

freedom of religion = quashing public expression of religion to the extent that opening prayers are illegal

 

and

 

freedom of religion = sometimes I hear a prayer to the deity I worship and sometimes I hear a prayer to a deity I don't believe in and sometimes there is no prayer at all

 

. . . guess which one actually sounds like freedom? Sign me up for the latter, please!

 

But the latter is not what we generally get, is it? We get a prayer that is Christian (or even explicitly Protestant) or, if people have been restrained from that, a prayer that is monotheistic. (Not every religion has a singular "Lord" or "God," after all.)

 

It's not like Veritaserum just happened to attend a school event on the day that the prayer was an LDS one, and it's equally likely that they could have had an imam up there declaring that there is no God but Allah, or a secular humanist starting the program with a few trenchant remarks on the beauty of philosophical materialism. They start events for public schooled kids with an LDS prayer. In other places, it's a generic Christian prayer. I don't think it's ever a strict rotation of all possible belief systems.

 

Also, you - and many other people in this thread, so I don't mean to single you out - blur the distinction between "public religious expression" and "state-sponsored religious expression." Of course people can, and do, express their religious beliefs in public all the time. How can anyone live in America and think that people are forced to hide their religious expression here? It's all around us!

 

Here are some examples of things that are legal public expressions of religion:

- Wearing clothing that marks your religion

- Displaying religious slogans on your clothing, bumper sticker, backpack, place of business, etc.

- Handing out Bibles or tracts

- Saying grace before a meal at a restaurant, school lunchroom (by individual students), community supper, etc.

- Leading people in corporate prayer at a privately-sponsored event in a public place (e.g., a Catholic athletic league basketball tournament in a public gym)

- Gathering for prayer in a public park

- Asking for reasonable accommodations of your religious obligations in state-sponsored settings (e.g., taking your kids out of school on religious holidays, modifying a school uniform to meet religious requirements for modesty)

 

You know, as a member of a minority religion, we get a _lot_ of chances to practice tolerance. Most chances than I honestly think members of the majority religion can comprehend, if this thread is any indication.

 

Minority kids are not raised ignorant of Christianity. Trust me; It would be impossible. And that's fine. I don't throw myself in front of church signs and Santa displays. I have taught my children to answer politely when they are wished a happy Easter or when someone asks what they are getting for Christmas. They know what a Christian is, that they believe different things, but that they are very tolerant of Jews in this country and we should be thankful for that.

 

But at this point in history, I do feel entitled to go to a public school event and not hear a prayer. This is the clear law. This is the overwhelming practice. And when someone violates it, I feel that they are expressing that this is not an event for me or for my children. This is an event for the religious majority, and they don't care that we are excluded or uncomfortable. And since we're taxpayers and citizens, I think that really sucks.

 

Allow me to speak for virtually all non-Christians: _prayer to Jesus at public events makes non-Christians feel isolated and uncomfortable._ There. It's not a hypothetical anymore.

 

And I am personally honoured when a Christian speaks up on behalf of us non-Christians. Believe it or not, it can be hard enough to be a minority without courting a reputation as the "kvetchy one who won't let us pray."

 

:iagree: I think it is really hard for Christians to understand what it is like to be a religious minority. It really isn't the case that "sometimes you have public things that are oriented towards your religion, and sometimes you don't, and those times you just have to suck it up." It is overwhelming cultural pressure to be Christian, observe Christian holidays, and have things framed in Christian language.

[leeannpal]

I don't get what the big deal is. Our country was founded on prayer, and God. I'm from the south and we pray. A LOT.

 

We have become the nation of the offended.

 

I'm from the South and a Christian. I pray a lot. That said, the Supreme Court has ruled that public prayer in a public school setting is not o.k. Our nation is a melting pot of people of many different ethnicities and religious beliefs. While I certainly believe in the right to tell people one on one about what Jesus has done for me, and to pray in churches and at religious events, I don't think just arbitrarily ignoring a law is a good way of honoring God.

 

OP, I hope you sent an email, and I hope you get a response.

[Julie in Austin]

I don't think just arbitrarily ignoring a law is a good way of honoring God.

 

:iagree:

[OH_Homeschooler]

I'll be honest and say I pretty much skipped everything after the OP. I'm an atheist and I have to agree with NASDAQ's response.

 

Thank you Veritaserum for caring!

[Carrie12345]

 

Also, you - and many other people in this thread, so I don't mean to single you out - blur the distinction between "public religious expression" and "state-sponsored religious expression." Of course people can, and do, express their religious beliefs in public all the time. How can anyone live in America and think that people are forced to hide their religious expression here? It's all around us!

 

Here are some examples of things that are legal public expressions of religion:

- Wearing clothing that marks your religion

- Displaying religious slogans on your clothing, bumper sticker, backpack, place of business, etc.

- Handing out Bibles or tracts

- Saying grace before a meal at a restaurant, school lunchroom (by individual students), community supper, etc.

- Leading people in corporate prayer at a privately-sponsored event in a public place (e.g., a Catholic athletic league basketball tournament in a public gym)

- Gathering for prayer in a public park

- Asking for reasonable accommodations of your religious obligations in state-sponsored settings (e.g., taking your kids out of school on religious holidays, modifying a school uniform to meet religious requirements for modesty)

 

 

Exactly.

There are many venues for religious expression. An institution designed to serve people off ALL beliefs or lack thereof is NOT one of those venues.

[Stacia]

Which change is easier to effect: changing a tax law or changing the local charter school's policy about public prayer? Which could conceivably be done with a single complaint by a single person?

 

I don't know which is easier. You seem to be implying that changing a public prayer policy would be easier ("conceivably done by a single complaint by a single person"), yet that is not necessarily the case as demonstrated by this thread, by the fact that it still happens constantly (sometimes in defiance of current laws in our country), and all the court cases that have been held & rulings made on the topic.

 

Then you see that the two ought to go together, right? Paying for "whatever" means (or ought to mean) that we need to listen to "whatever" as well.

 

:confused:

 

But the latter is not what we generally get, is it? We get a prayer that is Christian (or even explicitly Protestant) or, if people have been restrained from that, a prayer that is monotheistic. (Not every religion has a singular "Lord" or "God," after all.)

 

It's not like Veritaserum just happened to attend a school event on the day that the prayer was an LDS one, and it's equally likely that they could have had an imam up there declaring that there is no God but Allah, or a secular humanist starting the program with a few trenchant remarks on the beauty of philosophical materialism. They start events for public schooled kids with an LDS prayer. In other places, it's a generic Christian prayer. I don't think it's ever a strict rotation of all possible belief systems.

 

Also, you - and many other people in this thread, so I don't mean to single you out - blur the distinction between "public religious expression" and "state-sponsored religious expression." Of course people can, and do, express their religious beliefs in public all the time. How can anyone live in America and think that people are forced to hide their religious expression here? It's all around us!

 

Here are some examples of things that are legal public expressions of religion:

- Wearing clothing that marks your religion

- Displaying religious slogans on your clothing, bumper sticker, backpack, place of business, etc.

- Handing out Bibles or tracts

- Saying grace before a meal at a restaurant, school lunchroom (by individual students), community supper, etc.

- Leading people in corporate prayer at a privately-sponsored event in a public place (e.g., a Catholic athletic league basketball tournament in a public gym)

- Gathering for prayer in a public park

- Asking for reasonable accommodations of your religious obligations in state-sponsored settings (e.g., taking your kids out of school on religious holidays, modifying a school uniform to meet religious requirements for modesty)

 

 

 

:iagree: I think it is really hard for Christians to understand what it is like to be a religious minority. It really isn't the case that "sometimes you have public things that are oriented towards your religion, and sometimes you don't, and those times you just have to suck it up." It is overwhelming cultural pressure to be Christian, observe Christian holidays, and have things framed in Christian language.

 

Thanks, Rivka. Very well said.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

As I said, tolerance goes both ways, especially in this country, where people have been praying at public events since its founding.

 

People are way too sensitive.:glare:

 

 

Yep. That pretty much sums it up!

[DesertDweller]

I would find it odd since this is considered to be a public school. I think I would wait though to see if this was going to be the norm at all the events or if for some reason this was a one time thing.

 

If it continued, I wouldn't write a note. I would speak with someone directly to find out why it was being allowed. I would also ask if they planned to represent and include other religions with the type of prayer prayed.

[SKL]

My kids attend a charter school. They pray before every meal, and they put on a Christmas pageant in December. The owner informs parents of this, unapologetically, at orientation. I'm pretty sure it's not illegal. Not all the students are Christian, but their families understand that this is just one of many times they will need to choose between tolerance/inclusion and isolation.

 

Personally I think that parents of all faiths (or no faith) should teach their kids about prayer/traditions of those groups with critical mass in their area. If you talk about it before the child encounters it, there won't be as much confusion. "Some people believe ___" should be enough at a young age.

[Momof3littles]

My kids attend a charter school. They pray before every meal, and they put on a Christmas pageant in December. The owner informs parents of this, unapologetically, at orientation. I'm pretty sure it's not illegal. Not all the students are Christian, but their families understand that this is just one of many times they will need to choose between tolerance/inclusion and isolation.

 

Personally I think that parents of all faiths (or no faith) should teach their kids about prayer/traditions of those groups with critical mass in their area. If you talk about it before the child encounters it, there won't be as much confusion. "Some people believe ___" should be enough at a young age.

Is the orientation before they commit to the school? I would be extraordinarily upset if we committed to a charter school, not knowing it had school-sponsored Christian content. Are the families made aware of this in advance in some way?

[Rivka]

My kids attend a charter school. They pray before every meal, and they put on a Christmas pageant in December. The owner informs parents of this, unapologetically, at orientation. I'm pretty sure it's not illegal. Not all the students are Christian, but their families understand that this is just one of many times they will need to choose between tolerance/inclusion and isolation.

 

What is "inclusive" about only having Christian content? It sounds more as if students who are non-Christian are being asked to accept exclusion. (You suggest that it is a choice between inclusion and isolation, but I suspect that it is plenty isolating to have to sit through "in Jesus' name we pray" every day when you aren't Christian.)

[Mergath]

Allow me to speak for virtually all non-Christians: _prayer to Jesus at public events makes non-Christians feel isolated and uncomfortable._ There. It's not a hypothetical anymore.

 

:iagree: It puts me in the position of either having to bow my head and pretend to be something I'm not, or to stand there looking around and twiddling my thumbs until everyone else is done chatting with Jesus. Inevitably, someone will open their eyes and glance around mid-prayer, see me not praying, and scowl.

 

I have no problem with everyone taking a moment for reflection, or whatever, because it's all-inclusive. An atheist, a Christian, and a Pagan can all use the time how they wish. But a public figure leading a public school group in an explicitly Christian prayer is uncomfortable. And, you know, illegal.

[susankenny]

Inevitably, someone will open their eyes and glance around mid-prayer, see me not praying, and scowl.

 

Eh, just scowl back and flip um off:D They aren't doing what everyone else is doing either!

 

Susan

Edited April 20, 2012 by susankenny

[JeneralMom]

I went to a Presbyterian-founded school which was stated to be inclusive of all religions. We were asked to go to service for Christmas and Easter, but could opt out for religious reasons. When we got a new Principal, she decided to re-instate a prayer at the beginning of assembly (each Tuesday and Thursday). It was very uncomfortable as many of the students (I would say over 50%) were Jewish/Muslim/atheist. However, it was private school so she could do what she wanted and the board was made up of Presbyterians so they allowed it. I can tell you it was extremely uncomfortable to have to stand through it, looking around to see the majority of people fussing rolling their eyes, bored. When the next Principal came in it was stopped immediately.

 

There is no place for prayer in a public school event.

[ktgrok]

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. If you are ok with a Christian prayer at a school function you also have to be ok with a Muslim prayer, a Buddhist chant, and a Wiccan invocation. If you are not ok with someone getting up and praying in the name of Allah, or leading a prayer from their Vodouin tradition, then you are not in favor of school prayer. If you only want one kind of prayer than you are saying the school can endorse a particular religion, and THAT is the problem I see.

 

Honestly, I doubt that most people that are ok with a Christian prayer would even be ok with someone saying a Hail Mary at the microphone. They don't want religious freedom, they want freedom for their religion.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Public or not, I don't think prayer in any setting should be frowned upon. YOU don't have to pray. This is a problem that has only really made it's showing in the recent past. People may be uncomfortable with it but why should others stop to ease your discomfort when you can easily just NOT pray? Life provides many opportunities to practice tolerance. This is one of those times.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::lol:

[Mrs Mungo]

To clarify (again): I was in no way suggesting that the OP should not complain/email/talk to someone about how to make the event more inclusive.

 

But, I will continue to disagree that it is *illegal* for a public figure to offer a non-proselytizing prayer at a public event. I will also continue to disagree that it is somehow a great burden to listen to a brief prayer at an event once in a while. And, yes, I've been in countries where my religion was in the minority and public prayers played over loudspeakers several times a day. I didn't take offense or choose to be annoyed that I had to wait a few minutes to conduct business. I would never scowl at someone who did not choose to bow their head for prayer (unless it was one of my children), and I would scowl at people for plenty of other reasons, lol.

 

The court decisions are a mixed bag, as has been shown by this thread. Not every prayer in a school, at a school event, at a public event or by a public official is illegal. That isn't how separation of church and state works. I heartily agree with the separation of church and state, and the very first thing I typed in this thread disagreed with someone who does not like how separation of church and state has been interpreted.

 

I guess my feelings are mixed. I agree that people should not use a public setting to proselytize. I don't think a short, simple, general prayer is proselytizing. I think some of the people on both sides could stand to be more tolerant of those around them.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[susankenny]

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. If you are ok with a Christian prayer at a school function you also have to be ok with a Muslim prayer, a Buddhist chant, and a Wiccan invocation. If you are not ok with someone getting up and praying in the name of Allah, or leading a prayer from their Vodouin tradition, then you are not in favor of school prayer. If you only want one kind of prayer than you are saying the school can endorse a particular religion, and THAT is the problem I see.

 

Honestly, I doubt that most people that are ok with a Christian prayer would even be ok with someone saying a Hail Mary at the microphone. They don't want religious freedom, they want freedom for their religion.

 

Well, if I was at a function that was predominantly one faith, I would be okay with it. I feel like a lot of people have stated the same thing, yet it's continually being overlooked.

 

Plus, this prayer in question was very short asking God to simply bless the time or yada yada. It sounds like it was very generic. It wasn't like the prayer said, "We are Latterday Saints & we are so blessed above all others. No one here has favor with God but us. Amen"

 

 

 

Susan

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. If you are ok with a Christian prayer at a school function you also have to be ok with a Muslim prayer, a Buddhist chant, and a Wiccan invocation. If you are not ok with someone getting up and praying in the name of Allah, or leading a prayer from their Vodouin tradition, then you are not in favor of school prayer. If you only want one kind of prayer than you are saying the school can endorse a particular religion, and THAT is the problem I see.

 

Honestly, I doubt that most people that are ok with a Christian prayer would even be ok with someone saying a Hail Mary at the microphone. They don't want religious freedom, they want freedom for their religion.

 

:iagree:Exactly.

 

What if they wanted to do a Satanic prayer???? There are nuts out there who believe that stuff.

[Carrie12345]

Personally I think that parents of all faiths (or no faith) should teach their kids about prayer/traditions of those groups with critical mass in their area. If you talk about it before the child encounters it, there won't be as much confusion. "Some people believe ___" should be enough at a young age.

 

My kids are exposed to multiple aspects of religion, including prayer, through most of their privately chosen activities and by virtue of having friends and family. Confusion isn't a worry of mine in the least.

[LMA]

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. If you are ok with a Christian prayer at a school function you also have to be ok with a Muslim prayer, a Buddhist chant, and a Wiccan invocation. If you are not ok with someone getting up and praying in the name of Allah, or leading a prayer from their Vodouin tradition, then you are not in favor of school prayer. If you only want one kind of prayer than you are saying the school can endorse a particular religion, and THAT is the problem I see.

 

Honestly, I doubt that most people that are ok with a Christian prayer would even be ok with someone saying a Hail Mary at the microphone. They don't want religious freedom, they want freedom for their religion.

 

The Hail Mary is a Christian prayer.

[dangermom]

The Hail Mary is a Christian prayer.

My reading was that that was her point.

[pqr]

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. If you are ok with a Christian prayer at a school function you also have to be ok with a Muslim prayer, a Buddhist chant, and a Wiccan invocation. If you are not ok with someone getting up and praying in the name of Allah, or leading a prayer from their Vodouin tradition, then you are not in favor of school prayer. If you only want one kind of prayer than you are saying the school can endorse a particular religion, and THAT is the problem I see.

 

Honestly, I doubt that most people that are ok with a Christian prayer would even be ok with someone saying a Hail Mary at the microphone. They don't want religious freedom, they want freedom for their religion.

 

 

Having lived in many places where my religion is not the majority I can say with absolutely no equivocation that I would have NO issue with it.

 

What people here forget is that sometimes the majority do get their own way. It is NOT an infringement of rights that someone might listen to a prayer to something that they do not believe in. It is not illegal, it is not unconstitutional, it is simply part of living in a society.

 

No one is asking you to believe (though in places that I have been {overseas} there IS real pressure to conform) simply to be quiet and listen politely. If that is too much of a burden then then the anti-social and intolerant behavior is yours not the person praying.

Edited April 20, 2012 by pqr

[tristangrace]

Also, you - and many other people in this thread, so I don't mean to single you out - blur the distinction between "public religious expression" and "state-sponsored religious expression."

 

But I think you are blurring it, also. You see the state sponsoring a religious expression when the parent of a student at a charter school prays publicly where I see the the parent as a private citizen, speaking publicly. I'm not sure how the government (or my tax money) is sponsoring this individual's religion.

 

It is overwhelming cultural pressure to be Christian, observe Christian holidays, and have things framed in Christian language.

 

This is not the case where I live. I can't remember the last time I was at a public event in my city where there was an affirmation, however generically, for the Christian faith. I'm not complaining, BTW. I happen to love living in a multicultural area. Just saying you are making assumptions that do not apply universally across the country.

[SKL]

If my tax dollars were going towards that I think I'd be horrified really.

 

And I think I'm a pretty tolerant person.

 

Our tax dollars do go toward faith-based organizations, though.

 

As for the other poster's question of whether people had notice of the Christian aspect before signing on - maybe. If you read the website of the whole organization (of which the charter KG is only a small part) you can find a sentence or two to the effect that there is a "non-denominational" prayer at meals and maybe a couple of other details. And KG orientation was after we signed up, but a week or two before classes actually began. I suppose we could have dropped out at that point, but that's kind of late to start finding an alternative school situation.

 

I do feel it's a choice you make when you go to a charter school. I think it's on the family to find out whether there is going to be any talk of religion or not, because I don't think that's against the law for a charter school. A traditional public school is a different story.

 

All the folks I know of non-majority faiths are cool with exposing their kids to the majority faith, and their kids understand that different folks have different beliefs. They decide it's worth it so their kid can enjoy the benefits of the charter school or whatever. Also, if their kids are growing up in this country, they don't want them to be ignorant about the main faiths they will encounter. So I really don't understand why it would be uncomfortable to have a prayer be spoken, as long as there isn't an overt expression of "outsiders are inferior."

 

And yes, I believe it goes both ways. My kids have been to Hindu temples and events, Muslim celebrations, and so on. They also attend a church/Sunday School whose beliefs are different from mine. "Some people believe" and "but I believe" are spoken often around here.

[Mrs Mungo]

No one is asking you to believe (though in places that I have been {overseas} there IS real pressure to conform) simply to be quiet and listen politely. If that is too much of a burden then then the anti-social and intolerant behavior is yours not the person praying.

 

Heaven knows this pains me, but I have to sort of agree. For example, any Christian Bible study you host in Egypt is going to be attended by at least one government spy who isn't going to talk or participate. This is 1) to make sure you aren't in some extremist group and making some plot to overthrow the regime and 2) to apply pressure to the local nationals not to attend.

 

Christian babies/children in Egypt are tattooed with a cross on their hand/wrist/somewhere, so that people around them know that they are exempt from certain actions required by Islam. So, if a young woman isn't wearing a head-covering, but has a cross tattoo, then she is*less* likely (not completely unlikely) to be harassed. Even then, they cannot always get Christian identity cards. AND: "Identity cards carrying details of a person's religion are required by law in Egypt for employment, education, and access to any public services."

 

Those are the sorts of things that you get with a state-sponsored religion. Hearing a prayer now and then at a public event does not fit the definition of establishing a state sponsored religion, IMO.

 

Again, that doesn't mean that one should try to be inclusive and make everyone comfortable in a given space. But, it can be pretty close to impossible to make *everyone* happy at times.

[SKL]

Also: my Hindu friends from India generally attended Catholic schools. They had to go to chapel etc. None of them ended up any more Catholic than they had been before they started. Their families understood that that was just something they needed to deal with in order to get the education they wanted. They also had no negative attitude about it. If anything, it was helpful for those who migrated to majority-Christian countries.

 

I do understand that this was the family's choice, and that makes a difference. It was not imposed on them against their will. But, neither is a charter school.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Having lived in many places where my religion is not the majority I can say with absolutely no equivocation that I would have NO issue with it.

 

What people here forget is that sometimes the majority do get their own way. It is NOT an infringement of rights that someone might listen to a prayer to something that they do not believe in. It is not illegal, it is not unconstitutional, it is simply part of living in a society.

 

No one is asking you to believe (though in places that I have been {overseas} there IS real pressure to conform) simply to be quiet and listen politely. If that is too much of a burden then then the anti-social and intolerant behavior is yours not the person praying.

 

The founding fathers did not intend for public officials working in their official capacity such as teachers and principals endorse religion. I suggest going to the National Archives and read the documents there:) Thomas Jefferson is quite clear on separation of church and state.

 

Now if teachers and principals want to pray outside their official duties that is quite fine. If one wants prayer officiated at school then go to a private religious school IMO.

[NASDAQ]

Having lived in many places where my religion is not the majority I can say with absolutely no equivocation that I would have NO issue with it.

 

What people here forget is that sometimes the majority do get their own way. It is NOT an infringement of rights that someone might listen to a prayer to something that they do not believe in. It is not illegal, it is not unconstitutional, it is simply part of living in a society.

 

No one is asking you to believe (though in places that I have been {overseas} there IS real pressure to conform) simply to be quiet and listen politely. If that is too much of a burden then then the anti-social and intolerant behavior is yours not the person praying.

 

See this? This is why it's such a kindness that people like verituseum take some of the heat off. Because sometimes you ask that people conform with law and custom of fifty years and leave the prayer out, and all of a sudden one is called "anti-social and intolerant" -- which, btw, no one said of the original prayer; I would assume most people who pray where it isn't appropriate are just mistaken and did not mean to make other people uncomfortable.

 

You are a guest in other countries where the custom is to make a large government display of religion, and you don't feel uncomfortable. That's nice, but it's not really relevant to this situation. I am not a guest here. This is my country. This is my children's country. And this is a country where we have been promised that at least at public school events, my children will not be excluded by a program that assumes that they are Christian.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Heaven knows this pains me, but I have to sort of agree. For example, any Christian Bible study you host in Egypt is going to be attended by at least one government spy who isn't going to talk or participate. This is 1) to make sure you aren't in some extremist group and making some plot to overthrow the regime and 2) to apply pressure to the local nationals not to attend.

 

Christian babies/children in Egypt are tattooed with a cross on their hand/wrist/somewhere, so that people around them know that they are exempt from certain actions required by Islam. So, if a young woman isn't wearing a head-covering, but has a cross tattoo, then she is*less* likely (not completely unlikely) to be harassed. Even then, they cannot always get Christian identity cards. AND: "Identity cards carrying details of a person's religion are required by law in Egypt for employment, education, and access to any public services."

 

Those are the sorts of things that you get with a state-sponsored religion. Hearing a prayer now and then at a public event does not fit the definition of establishing a state sponsored religion, IMO.

 

Again, that doesn't mean that one should try to be inclusive and make everyone comfortable in a given space. But, it can be pretty close to impossible to make *everyone* happy at times.

 

I disagree. IMO I do not feel other countries laws are relevant in this discussion since we are discussing the legalities in America.

 

I also feel there is a danger in tolerating the officiating of prayer in public school. Just look at some Middle Eastern countries where 30 some years ago women wore western clothes instead of oppressive burqas. People must have tolerated the gradual encroachment of the Taliban for it to become the reality of women being beaten or killed for wearing western type clothes today:(

 

Again, how would one feel if I wanted to lead a prayer in my official capacity in a public school to the flying spaghetti monster;)???

[clarkacademy]

I don't go to church. I was raised Catholic now I guess I am just me. That being said I still stand by to each their own. Pray don't pray. If everyone in the world would just let everyone else do their thing then it would be alot better. If you wanna pop out about Allah or Buddah hey cool! I don't care. Stop caring about God and prayers. What the heck? Respect everyone period.

 

Why run around tattling trying to get people in trouble? No one is saying you had to pray. Be respectful and maybe it will come back on you from other people. I just can't believe people are preaching how horrible it is when you are basically turning around saying the same thing.

 

This is America. This is what the country was founded on people. If you don't like it then don't be a part of it. People have died and are dieing for that flag One Nation Under God if that is against your belief then why are you here?

 

People should be able to be who they are without fear of being told on like a darn toddler.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

See this? This is why it's such a kindness that people like verituseum take some of the heat off. Because sometimes you ask that people conform with law and custom of fifty years and leave the prayer out, and all of a sudden one is called "anti-social and intolerant" -- which, btw, no one said of the original prayer; I would assume most people who pray where it isn't appropriate are just mistaken and did not mean to make other people uncomfortable.

 

You are a guest in other countries where the custom is to make a large government display of religion, and you don't feel uncomfortable. That's nice, but it's not really relevant to this situation. I am not a guest here. This is my country. This is my children's country. And this is a country where we have been promised that at least at public school events, my children will not be excluded by a program that assumes that they are Christian.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Spy Car]

 

People are way too sensitive.:glare:

 

Nah, I think the problem is people are way too insensitive.

 

Veritaserum is a lovely exception to this by considering others outside her faith-group. We could use more like her.

 

Bill

[Ipsey]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but I applaud you for writing a note and explaining how intentionally excluding some students and parents in the name of their deity is inappropriate in a public school.

 

You are an upstanding American :D

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I don't go to church. I was raised Catholic now I guess I am just me. That being said I still stand by to each their own. Pray don't pray. If everyone in the world would just let everyone else do their thing then it would be alot better. If you wanna pop out about Allah or Buddah hey cool! I don't care. Stop caring about God and prayers. What the heck? Respect everyone period.

 

Why run around tattling trying to get people in trouble? No one is saying you had to pray. Be respectful and maybe it will come back on you from other people. I just can't believe people are preaching how horrible it is when you are basically turning around saying the same thing.

 

This is America. This is what the country was founded on people. If you don't like it then don't be a part of it. People have died and are dieing for that flag One Nation Under God if that is against your belief then why are you here?

 

People should be able to be who they are without fear of being told on like a darn toddler.

 

This is not a matter of being "told on" like a toddler. It is a matter of respecting and obeying the laws of our country.

[hrigg]

I would personally send an email coming from the gentle point you were speaking of maybe with the approach of you catch more flys with honey than vingear persuasion. You never know it might help. They may not have realized they did it as it would be a "normal prayer" for them.

 

Unfortunately, from past experience those majority let's exclude everyone unless they believe exactly like we do don't really pay attention to those types of letters except to frown upon them and use them in their next sermon. I was a memeber of an church for years that hurt people unintentionly/intentionaly emotionally with their cutting overzealous ways.

 

I'm not saying you, them or anyone here is like that. I have a naive peaceful soul you could say that hates it when two separate forms fight over beliefs.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

But I think you are blurring it, also. You see the state sponsoring a religious expression when the parent of a student at a charter school prays publicly where I see the the parent as a private citizen, speaking publicly. I'm not sure how the government (or my tax money) is sponsoring this individual's religion.

 

 

 

This is not the case where I live. I can't remember the last time I was at a public event in my city where there was an affirmation, however generically, for the Christian faith. I'm not complaining, BTW. I happen to love living in a multicultural area. Just saying you are making assumptions that do not apply universally across the country.

 

The parent was asked to pray by a public official at an official school function. That is totally different from a parent just praying.

[Mrs Mungo]

The founding fathers did not intend for public officials working in their official capacity such as teachers and principals endorse religion. I suggest going to the National Archives and read the documents there:) Thomas Jefferson is quite clear on separation of church and state.

 

I am going to somewhat disagree with you here. Jefferson was clear that he did not believe, for example, that the government should issue a proclamation of a national "Day of Prayer." This was because he did not want to give the appearance of the establishment of a national religion. He's the author of the wall metaphor, that I referenced early in this thread.

 

On the other hand, he prayed and supported prayers *at official events* and in his official capacity.

 

Here is his second inaugural address. To quote in part:

I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land, and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with his providence, and our riper years with his wisdom and power; and to whose goodness I ask you to join with me in supplications, that he will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures, that whatsoever they do, shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations.

Here is a prayer that was to be read after the Declaration of Independence.

 

This clearly shows that he saw them as two different things. So, he is probably a bad example to use to support your cause.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Also: my Hindu friends from India generally attended Catholic schools. They had to go to chapel etc. None of them ended up any more Catholic than they had been before they started. Their families understood that that was just something they needed to deal with in order to get the education they wanted. They also had no negative attitude about it. If anything, it was helpful for those who migrated to majority-Christian countries.

 

I do understand that this was the family's choice, and that makes a difference. It was not imposed on them against their will. But, neither is a charter school.

 

Attending a catholic school is a choice. Many families only have the choice to send kids to public schools since private school is often not affordable.

[Mrs Mungo]

I disagree. IMO I do not feel other countries laws are relevant in this discussion since we are discussing the legalities in America.

 

It is relevant since it has *repeatedly* been asked how I would feel if I were in the minority religion. I have been there. Therefore, I can answer that question quite honestly.

 

I also feel there is a danger in tolerating the officiating of prayer in public school. Just look at some Middle Eastern countries where 30 some years ago women wore western clothes instead of oppressive burqas. People must have tolerated the gradual encroachment of the Taliban for it to become the reality of women being beaten or killed for wearing western type clothes today:(

The reign of the Taliban was anything but gradual.

 

Again, how would one feel if I wanted to lead a prayer in my official capacity in a public school to the flying spaghetti monster;)???

Since it's supposed to be a rude joke on religious people versus a genuine faith of any kind? I would have left, and taken my kids with me, never to return.

 

It is a matter of respecting and obeying the laws of our country.

 

Depending on what was said, I don't think that is necessarily true.

 

I would personally send an email coming from the gentle point you were speaking of maybe with the approach of you catch more flys with honey than vingear persuasion. You never know it might help. They may not have realized they did it as it would be a "normal prayer" for them.

 

I agree with this, and it sounds as if that the approach taken by the OP. Hopefully, the "more flies with honey than vinegar" approach causes the events to be more inclusive in the future. That would be a positive thing, IMO.

[Mrs Mungo]

Attending a catholic school is a choice. Many families only have the choice to send kids to public schools since private school is often not affordable.

 

The school in question is a charter school. Therefore, the kids are *also* there by choice.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

It is relevant since it has *repeatedly* been asked how I would feel if I were in the minority religion. I have been there. Therefore, I can answer that question quite honestly.

 

To me minority or majority religion is irrelevant to the legal matter. The legal matter is whether one wants public officials to officiate/endorse any religion in their official capacity.

 

As for Jefferson and prayer, I daresay many Christians would not recognize him as Christian since he made a version of the Bible for himself that took out all of the miracles of Jesus. Also, our understanding of the Constitution and the Founding Fathers intentions has evolved over the years. After all, women and blacks were not granted full liberties under the Constitution when first written:(. Later, thankfully, our understanding has evolved.

 

The reign of the Taliban was anything but gradual.

 

That may be, but people must have tolerated it on some level:(.

 

Since it's supposed to be a rude joke on religious people versus a genuine faith of any kind? I would have left, and taken my kids with me, never to return.

 

I agree. I would be offended as well. However, if one agrees that it is ok to officiate prayer in schools then this sort of thing is possible:(.

 

 

Depending on what was said, I don't think that is necessarily true.

 

 

 

I agree with this, and it sounds as if that the approach taken by the OP. Hopefully, the "more flies with honey than vinegar" approach causes the events to be more inclusive in the future. That would be a positive thing, IMO.

 

 

My responses are in blue:)