Should I say something? Prayer at public charter homeschool event.

[Maus]

I forgot to say that I voted "other" in the poll. I did so because it would depend a lot on the tone of the email. A gentle, "Hey, that may have made some people uncomfortable, and might not be appropriate in a public venue" would be a good thing. A "Hey, that was of questionable legality and should not have happened" would be too much for the situation.

 

It was thoughtless, but not intentionally offensive/divisive/preachy, and should be treated that way.

[2_girls_mommy]

LOL

 

ETA... LOL at the note. The PP and I posted at the same time.

[dancer67]

The way I see it, if the school chooses to do a prayer and you don't like it, then don't participate.

 

So what are we going to do about the Pledge of Allegiance? Not say it because it has the word GOD in it? Or God forbid we "offend" the Jehovah Witness in the class????

 

People really need to stop getting so darn uptight about these things. We have free will, and nobody is FORCING anyone to participate in prayer at any public event.

 

And whether people agree with this or not, a lot of trouble started happening in the schools when they took God and prayer OUT.

 

I never saw anyone in the Little House on the Prairie days get all in a huff about it.

 

I just cannot stand all this "I am so offended" stuff.

[Joanne]

The reactions here are simply amazing.

 

 

Of course this was grossly inappropriate and I would most certainly write an email to the school expressing that.

 

Exactly. It's a public education event and a specific-religion prayers is inappropriate. It's a no brainer.

 

I'd be very curious to know how many of the "don't write" votes or the "leave it alone" posters are the religion that was represented by the prayer. I am guessing very few non majority culture posters voted to leave it alone or posted in support of a (by nature) exclusivist prayer at a public education event.

 

Joanne, who prays and encourages others to pray as they see fit

[gardenmom5]

I think this is getting over the top. I've been places where Jews and Muslims have offered prayers where there was a large body of mixed religion and atheist. (not at the same time.) didn't bother me, even though I'm christian.

 

the prayer that DID offend me? was so "generic" as to leave you wondering if a prayer had actually been offered. :001_huh: (and I've no idea the religion of the person offering it.)

[Joanne]

The way I see it, if the school chooses to do a prayer and you don't like it, then don't participate.

 

So what are we going to do about the Pledge of Allegiance? Not say it because it has the word GOD in it? Or God forbid we "offend" the Jehovah Witness in the class????

 

People really need to stop getting so darn uptight about these things. We have free will, and nobody is FORCING anyone to participate in prayer at any public event.

 

And whether people agree with this or not, a lot of trouble started happening in the schools when they took God and prayer OUT.

 

I never saw anyone in the Little House on the Prairie days get all in a huff about it.

 

I just cannot stand all this "I am so offended" stuff.

 

The effects of the over-culture are pervasive. And, to children living in an over-culture who aren't part of that culture, it can be damaging.

 

The Christian-Judeo assumption is entrenched and systemic. Having a religion specific prayer at a public education event is forcing participation. It *is* coercive. It *is* inappropriate. It is illegal.

 

And, to answer your question, they removed "God" from the pledge 10 or so years ago. It was not part of the orginal, anyway. Not that it personally matters to me because I don't believe in the pledge, either.

[Joanne]

I think this is getting over the top. I've been places where Jews and Muslims have offered prayers where there was a large body of mixed religion and atheist. (not at the same time.) didn't bother me, even though I'm christian.

 

the prayer that DID offend me? was so "generic" as to leave you wondering if a prayer had actually been offered. :001_huh: (and I've no idea the religion of the person offering it.)

 

I highly, highly, highly doubt that the most vehement posters in this thread in support of the prayer would support a Muslim prayer. How about a Wiccan casting a spell for rich learning in the school year to come? Or a pagan with a short cleaning ritual?

[susankenny]

Exactly. It's a public education event and a specific-religion prayers is inappropriate. It's a no brainer.

 

I'd be very curious to know how many of the "don't write" votes or the "leave it alone" posters are the religion that was represented by the prayer. I am guessing very few non majority culture posters voted to leave it alone or posted in support of a (by nature) exclusivist prayer at a public education event.

 

Joanne, who prays and encourages others to pray as they see fit

 

I would say the majority of us replying are not Mormon.

 

Susan

[susankenny]

I highly, highly, highly doubt that the most vehement posters in this thread in support of the prayer would support a Muslim prayer. How about a Wiccan casting a spell for rich learning in the school year to come? Or a pagan with a short cleaning ritual?

 

Joanne, have you even read the entire thread? It's all been addressed.

 

 

Susan

[oldskool]

I'm from the South and a Christian. I pray a lot. That said, the Supreme Court has ruled that public prayer in a public school setting is not o.k. Our nation is a melting pot of people of many different ethnicities and religious beliefs. While I certainly believe in the right to tell people one on one about what Jesus has done for me, and to pray in churches and at religious events, I don't think just arbitrarily ignoring a law is a good way of honoring God.

 

OP, I hope you sent an email, and I hope you get a response.

 

:iagree: completely.

[Joanne]

Joanne, have you even read the entire thread? It's all been addressed.

 

 

Susan

 

Yes. Your suggestion to Mergath to flip people off when they scowl at her mid-prayer had me :lol:.

 

I haven't been around much and wanted to participate in the thread.

[susankenny]

Yes. Your suggestion to Mergath to flip people off when they scowl at her mid-prayer had me :lol:.

 

I haven't been around much and wanted to participate in the thread.

 

:D I couldn't resist! The thought of people scowling with judgement at her for not praying with her head bowed, while they were doing the exact.same.thing deserves the bird, no? lol. If not, at least Mergath could get a good chuckle!

 

I'm glad you participated! I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

 

 

Susan

[Word Nerd]

nt

Edited April 21, 2012 by WordGirl

[Joanne]

nt

 

The CA supreme court, in 2002. Reinstated 2 years later.

 

About 2 days after the decision of CA to remove it, I attended a homeschool conference. I can't remember if I was here in TX or AZ at the time. But the conference leaders lead the greeting meeting with a request to say the pledge. The most thunderous words I ever heard were "under God" during that recitation; the entire building shook.

 

Homeschoolers are funny, quirky people.

 

I find the pledge, with or without God, creepy.

 

ETA: What did you do with your text? In any case, the poster I quoted asked about the pledge of allegiance.

[pqr]

The Christian-Judeo assumption is entrenched and systemic. Having a religion specific prayer at a public education event is forcing participation. It *is* coercive. It *is* inappropriate. It is illegal.

 

And, to answer your question, they removed "God" from the pledge 10 or so years ago. It was not part of the orginal, anyway. Not that it personally matters to me because I don't believe in the pledge, either.

 

1. It is NOT illegal if student led, read the links that give court decisions (earlier posts by other)

 

2. Before you jump in you need to verify. God has not been removed from the Pledge. He is still there. The link is to a USG website.

 

http://usgovinfo.about.com/blpledge.htm

 

The Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to the Flag,

of the United States of America

and to the Republic for which it stands,

One Nation, under God

Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for All.

Edited April 21, 2012 by pqr

[KarenNC]

So what are we going to do about the Pledge of Allegiance? Not say it because it has the word GOD in it? Or God forbid we "offend" the Jehovah Witness in the class????

 

I vote we go back to the original rather than the 1954 additions made in response to the Communist scares of the time. http://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm:)

 

People really need to stop getting so darn uptight about these things. We have free will, and nobody is FORCING anyone to participate in prayer at any public event.

 

And whether people agree with this or not, a lot of trouble started happening in the schools when they took God and prayer OUT.

 

I think we can see just from this thread that "God and prayer" have very blatantly NOT been removed from the schools (or many other areas of the public arena across the country), so this argument just doesn't hold. This is aside from the fact that "God and prayer" are not at issue. The issue is corporate school-sponsored sectarian worship activity. Individual belief and prayer are not the concern.

 

One doesn't have to have a physical gun to one's head for something to be a real issue. I do realize that it is very hard for someone in the majority to understand the effects this sort of thing, not just once, but day in and day out, year after year, can have on someone in the minority. It's the sort of thing that has often been used to keep those in the minority very aware of their "tolerated" position in society rather than as fully acknowledged and fully participating citizens.

 

I never saw anyone in the Little House on the Prairie days get all in a huff about it.

 

And certainly, if someone 130 years ago didn't see something was a problem, we should not consider even discussing it now. :lol: Glad that standard wasn't applied to slavery, women's suffrage, rights for the disabled, protections for the mentally ill, child labor laws, civil rights, religious tests to serve in public office, environmental protection, working conditions in factories and mines, etc, etc, etc throughout history.;)

 

Actually, one of the big issues of religion and education in the 19th century was between the Catholics and Protestants over prayers and Bible reading in the public schools (whose would be chosen). http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/innovators/hughes.html (you may want to read further on the Philadelphia Bible Riots--aka Philadelphia Nativist Riots, when Christians were killing each other and destroying property over this http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/photo_gallery/photo2.html).

 

I just cannot stand all this "I am so offended" stuff.

 

So you are so offended at people being offended?;)

[Georgiana Daniels]

I can see people getting offended/upset if they are being oppressed or persecuted. But uncomfortable? Why? Did they not realize they were in a group that had an LDS bent?

 

Most charter schools/groups/organizations have a bent. There's a charter school in our town that's a little woo-woo. Knowing this, I would never send my kids there, but I have no problem with my tax dollars going to support that school, because the woo-woo kids need an education too! (For the record, woo-woo is not a put down, it's just my opinion. We are all a little woo-woo in our own special way :D)

 

If you don't like the bent/flavor of a group, don't join. Start one of your own so that you/your kids can gather with like-minded people! There's NOTHING wrong with like-minded people getting together and having an event that at least in part reflects their belief system/culture/etc.

 

I can see where it *would* be a legitimate problem with the situation if it was a true public school that kids didn't have a choice to attend. The situation in this thread appears to be about an extra that parents have a choice whether or not to send their kids.

[Veritaserum]

I can see people getting offended/upset if they are being oppressed or persecuted. But uncomfortable? Why? Did they not realize they were in a group that had an LDS bent?

 

The group is not presented as having an LDS bent. Nothing on the website, in any of the materials, or in any of the conversations I had with those in charge said anything whatsoever about religion. The group is presented as a service to homeschoolers using public charter school funds. That's it. Totally secular.

 

If you don't like the bent/flavor of a group, don't join. Start one of your own so that you/your kids can gather with like-minded people! There's NOTHING wrong with like-minded people getting together and having an event that at least in part reflects their belief system/culture/etc.*

 

Again, the group is NOT an LDS group in any way, shape, or form. No one joining it would have any warning that prayers would be offered at a concert because the group is not at all presented as a religious one.

 

I would have no issue if this were a private group with private funds. A private co-op that states a religious affiliation (if any) is one thing. Whether or not it is ultimately provided by a business, a publicly-funded service that is presented as secular (i.e. religiously neutral) should actually *be* secular in practice.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Veritaserum

[mytwomonkeys]

Veritaserum, I realize the school isn't LDS specific, but wasn't this event sponsored by a co-op or something that says they are all inclusive with an LDS bent? (I think the other poster said that??) Isn't the school predominantly LDS? Don't people know this? I'm confused I think, :001_smile:

 

The other poster that was there said this about the prayer...

 

FWIW, the prayer was the short, "Bless everyone to do their best, and help us all get home safely" that is typical of our area.

 

Was it just the prayer in and of itself that was so offensive?

 

I'm just wondering. For me, it doesn't sound like I would have been offended even if it did come across a little left field. From reading this thread, I gather it hasn't ever happened before at this school, so I'm sure it won't become an ongoing concern for you. I do believe the prayer was said in kindness and certainly not meant to upset anyone.

 

I hope you get a response and find resolution.:grouphug:

Edited April 22, 2012 by mytwomonkeys

[Veritaserum]

Veritaserum, I realize the school isn't LDS specific, but wasn't this event sponsored by a co-op or something that says they are all inclusive with an LDS bend? (I think the other poster said that??) Isn't the school predominantly LDS? Don't people know this? I'm confused I think, :001_smile:

 

The other poster that was there said this about the prayer...

 

FWIW, the prayer was the short, "Bless everyone to do their best, and help us all get home safely" that is typical of our area.

 

Was it just a prayer in and of itself was so offensive?

 

I'm just wondering. For me, it doesn't sound like I would have been offended even if it did come across a little left field. From reading this thread, I gather it hasn't ever happened before at this school, so I'm sure it won't become an ongoing concern for you. I do believe the prayer was said in kindness and certainly not meant to upset anyone.

 

I hope you get a response and find resolution.:grouphug:

 

A private, LDS, inclusive co-op joined/was assimilated by the private business that creates partnerships with public charter schools. The co-op no longer exists. Only the secular program exists.

 

The school is predominantly LDS because the community is predominantly LDS. Of course people know that most people at the school are LDS. Most of the community is LDS. Every single school or group in the county is comprised of mostly LDS folks unless the group is specific to some other religion or an activity that goes against LDS teachings. (You wouldn't find Mormons in a smoking club, for instance. ;))

 

The content of the prayer was benign. However, the prayer itself was just another forceful reminder to any non-LDS person there that Mormons rule this land and everyone else is not worth thinking about. As a Mormon, I am extremely bothered by this attitude.

[mytwomonkeys]

A private, LDS, inclusive co-op joined/was assimilated by the private business that creates partnerships with public charter schools. The co-op no longer exists. Only the secular program exists.

 

The school is predominantly LDS because the community is predominantly LDS. Of course people know that most people at the school are LDS. Most of the community is LDS. Every single school or group in the county is comprised of mostly LDS folks unless the group is specific to some other religion or an activity that goes against LDS teachings. (You wouldn't find Mormons in a smoking club, for instance. ;))

 

The content of the prayer was benign. However, the prayer itself was just another forceful reminder to any non-LDS person there that Mormons rule this land and everyone else is not worth thinking about. As a Mormon, I am extremely bothered by this attitude.

 

Thanks for clarifying. That was confusing, lol.

 

It sounds like there is a history that is already thick in the air there & the prayer was more of a jab than a blessing. That stinks. It also sounds like the agenda to pray may have been a little more political than religious.

 

And yes, I certainly realize Mormons live outside of your town and walk among us all:tongue_smilie:

 

ETA - I just realized you typed "county", lol. I thought you typed "country" :) I thought it was funny that you pointed out to me that Mormons exist everywhere!

Edited April 22, 2012 by mytwomonkeys

[susankenny]

The school is predominantly LDS because the community is predominantly LDS. Of course people know that most people at the school are LDS. Most of the community is LDS. Every single school or group in the county is comprised of mostly LDS folks unless the group is specific to some other religion or an activity that goes against LDS teachings. (You wouldn't find Mormons in a smoking club, for instance. ;))

 

The content of the prayer was benign. However, the prayer itself was just another forceful reminder to any non-LDS person there that Mormons rule this land and everyone else is not worth thinking about. As a Mormon, I am extremely bothered by this attitude.

 

I've got to be honest, I am not LDS whatsoever, but I can tell you in my area the Mormons never have made me feel bad about not being LDS. They are the most humble, gentle, servant hearted people of any organized religion I have ever come across. Arrogance is really the last adjective I would use to describe them. I'm sorry your area provides a different experience. You should move here:D

 

I do hope you find resolve in this.

 

 

Susan

[susankenny]

ETA - I just realized you typed "county", lol. I thought you typed "country" :) I thought it was funny that you pointed out to me that Mormons exist everywhere!

 

:lol:

[Veritaserum]

I've got to be honest, I am not LDS whatsoever, but I can tell you in my area the Mormons never have made me feel bad about not being LDS. They are the most humble, gentle, servant hearted people of any organized religion I have ever come across. Arrogance is really the last adjective I would use to describe them. I'm sorry your area provides a different experience. You should move here:D

 

I do hope you find resolve in this.

 

 

Susan

 

Where I grew up, LDS folks (including my family) are like you describe. That's why it bugs me so much that they are inconsiderate here. Unfortunately, having a majority and an attitude of "we were here first" translates to ugly or insensitive behavior.

[dancer67]

1. It is NOT illegal if student led, read the links that give court decisions (earlier posts by other)

 

2. Before you jump in you need to verify. God has not been removed from the Pledge. He is still there. The link is to a USG website.

 

http://usgovinfo.about.com/blpledge.htm

 

 

The Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to the Flag,

of the United States of America

and to the Republic for which it stands,

One Nation, under God

Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for All.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

And thank you for this post.

[Georgiana Daniels]

A private, LDS, inclusive co-op joined/was assimilated by the private business that creates partnerships with public charter schools. The co-op no longer exists. Only the secular program exists.

 

The school is predominantly LDS because the community is predominantly LDS. Of course people know that most people at the school are LDS. Most of the community is LDS. Every single school or group in the county is comprised of mostly LDS folks unless the group is specific to some other religion or an activity that goes against LDS teachings. (You wouldn't find Mormons in a smoking club, for instance. ;))

 

The content of the prayer was benign. However, the prayer itself was just another forceful reminder to any non-LDS person there that Mormons rule this land and everyone else is not worth thinking about. As a Mormon, I am extremely bothered by this attitude.

 

Like Mytwomonkeys, I was confused by the other post that said there was a known LDS affiliation. Will you continue with this group? I hope you find a solution that works for you:)

[Maus]

Thanks for clarifying. That was confusing, lol.

Sorry. It was my post that was confusing. It was the co-op that had a strong LDS bent. When we were assimilated by the borg -- uh, business/charter partnership -- the co-op dissolved.

 

It sounds like there is a history that is already thick in the air there & the prayer was more of a jab than a blessing. That stinks. It also sounds like the agenda to pray may have been a little more political than religious.[/Quote]Not at all. They are just clueless and sheltered. It wouldn't occur to them not to have a prayer, because everything starts with a prayer. Some of us have lived elsewhere/have friends who aren't LDS/etc. and do get it, but there are others who really don't.

 

I have had a number of direct interactions with director (due to my highly sensitive son dramatically leaving class on numerous occasions :001_rolleyes:). She's pretty "by the book" in her thinking, so if she'd had any idea that having a prayer would be offensive or possibly illegal, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have suggested or even allowed one.

[NASDAQ]

Maus, don't answer if it's a problem, but were they absorbed by TJED?

[Amira]

Maus, don't answer if it's a problem, but were they absorbed by TJED?

 

We could turn this into a TJED discussion and aim for the longest thread ever. ;)

[stansclan89]

I've got to be honest, I am not LDS whatsoever, but I can tell you in my area the Mormons never have made me feel bad about not being LDS. They are the most humble, gentle, servant hearted people of any organized religion I have ever come across. Arrogance is really the last adjective I would use to describe them. I'm sorry your area provides a different experience. You should move here:D

 

 

You think this way because you don't live in Utah ;).

 

Most LDS outside of highly LDS populated areas are just as you describe. Dh and I have always said we would never live in Utah because of all the Mormons :tongue_smilie: (we are LDS).

[Maus]

Maus, don't answer if it's a problem, but were they absorbed by TJED?

No. It's a consulting business of some sort. They also offer coaching for creating business plans for charter schools and other similar services.

 

The program does seem to attract TJEDers, though. But maybe that's just because there are so many using that in this area.

 

We could turn this into a TJED discussion and aim for the longest thread ever. ;)

:lol:

[mytwomonkeys]

 

 

Not at all. They are just clueless and sheltered. It wouldn't occur to them not to have a prayer, because everything starts with a prayer. Some of us have lived elsewhere/have friends who aren't LDS/etc. and do get it, but there are others who really don't.

 

I have had a number of direct interactions with director (due to my highly sensitive son dramatically leaving class on numerous occasions :001_rolleyes:). She's pretty "by the book" in her thinking, so if she'd had any idea that having a prayer would be offensive or possibly illegal, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have suggested or even allowed one.

 

oh. that's very good to know. the other poster implied the prayer was just one more way to let everyone know that mormons ruled the roost and anyone not LDS was less than. that sounded very different than a kind hearted "drive safe" prayer.

 

really the entire thing just sounds like a big mess, lol. i'm sorry that it was offensive to anyone at all.:grouphug: i'm certain it will be resolved.

[KnitWit]

I have only read about half of this thread.

 

I just wanted to say that, as a Christian, I feel like the whole *praying in public* thing, outside of a corporate *worship* setting, is not even something that is completely supported in scripture. Jesus often addressed public religiosity. I read more about the need to focus on MY OWN heart, motivations, home, *private* relationship with the Lord than I do about working, working, working to change my government and make my neighbors bow their knees to the One whom I worship.

 

I actually have a negative feeling towards those who try to make people whom I know do not worship and adore my Lord to *pretend* as if they do. To me, that is the greater atrocity because I think it is wrong for a Believer to encourage non-believers to perform empty acts. (I hope that makes sense. It's hard to find the right words to say what I want to say.)

 

I look at people who are most caught up in making this country a *Christian* one, and they are the ones who *least* exhibit the qualities that Jesus Himself taught we should have. I am too busy trying to work on THOSE things myself.

 

I agree with Danestress that this country has never been "Christian" nor will it ever be.

[Veritaserum]

A lot of them are TJEders, but that's because it is popular here. As far as I'm aware there are no official ties. If there were, I would not have my children participate.

 

"Clueless and sheltered" is possible. I have witnessed deliberate meanness as well, though. I didn't grow up here, so I don't know what someone may view as normal and expected in all cases.

 

Whether it was clueless or deliberate, the inclusion of a prayer does rub it in that "everybody" is LDS (even though that's not true).

[KarenNC]

I have only read about half of this thread.

 

I just wanted to say that, as a Christian, I feel like the whole *praying in public* thing, outside of a corporate *worship* setting, is not even something that is completely supported in scripture. Jesus often addressed public religiosity. I read more about the need to focus on MY OWN heart, motivations, home, *private* relationship with the Lord than I do about working, working, working to change my government and make my neighbors bow their knees to the One whom I worship.

 

I actually have a negative feeling towards those who try to make people whom I know do not worship and adore my Lord to *pretend* as if they do. To me, that is the greater atrocity because I think it is wrong for a Believer to encourage non-believers to perform empty acts. (I hope that makes sense. It's hard to find the right words to say what I want to say.)

 

I look at people who are most caught up in making this country a *Christian* one, and they are the ones who *least* exhibit the qualities that Jesus Himself taught we should have. I am too busy trying to work on THOSE things myself.

 

I agree with Danestress that this country has never been "Christian" nor will it ever be.

 

:thumbup: This is why I suggest folks in favor of requiring corporate prayer outside of a religious setting read Matthew 6:5-6 in which Jesus very specifically addressed public prayer for its own sake.

 

As I said, I think this person who led the prayer was probably just not thinking, which is why a gentle note (as suggested in the OP) can really help. It did when we had to address this issue with our 4H activities at one point. 4H is specifically secular by its own by-laws, but, living in the Bible Belt in a group made up of homeschoolers (many of whom belong to the "statement of faith" group in the area), it never occurred to the leader that there might be issues with doing a lot of professional (as in professing belief) Christian activities. She was very sweet, very well-intentioned and, honestly, appalled that she had not considered those things when I pointed them out (she knew we were non-Christian and had had no intention of offending at all). I didn't make a huge stink, just a "I'm sorry but we aren't comfortable with X, here's why, so we won't be attending that particular meeting. See you next time."

 

There are indeed those who prefer to use religion as a club or way to "subtly" remind those who aren't part of the "in-group" that they are only being "tolerated" rather than being full-fledged members of the society and keep them aware of who is in power. It happens a lot here in our area, particularly when it comes to politics. As the Bible Riots I mentioned showed, having the school system be essentially an arm of the Protestant Church is not exactly productive.

[higginszoo]

You think this way because you don't live in Utah ;).

 

Most LDS outside of highly LDS populated areas are just as you describe. Dh and I have always said we would never live in Utah because of all the Mormons :tongue_smilie: (we are LDS).

 

This. There were a lot of things we liked about Utah, and we had a good number of friends there, a majority of whom are LDS. But there came a point where it was uncomfortable at best raising non-LDS kids there, as they were excluded from a lot. The LDS perspective on certain historical issues is different from the mainstream views, and it was the LDS, not the mainstream views, that were presented to my children in ps there.

For the most part, I don't think that most people meant to be exclusive and insular as they were, but most of them didn't know any other way. When we came home from an activity at our church one Saturday to find the street blocked off for a block party, the neighbors were genuinely surprised that we didn't know anything about it ... it was, after all, discussed ad infinitum in various ward committees and groups, and it was announced after Sacrament meeting for many weeks, as well as in the ward emails.

Prayer before public school functions in LDS style was common in our public school experience there (Granite district west side, so not as heavily LDS as some other areas of the state, or even the Salt Lake Valley). We chose to go with the flow, as there was never anything really contrary to our beliefs stated in the prayers.

Eventually, it got to the point where we realized that our children were going to be so limited (we already were in a homeschool dance group where none of the girls were allowed to talk to dd outside of class because we weren't LDS -- these were 6-8 year-olds) that we chose to leave. I miss my friends still, but it was the right thing for my dc.

My cousin is LDS (my uncle converted when he met my aunt), and he talks about living in UT off and on, but always left, because after being raised in NC, HI, and CA, the Utah culture was just too overwhelming for him.

[Veritaserum]

This. There were a lot of things we liked about Utah, and we had a good number of friends there, a majority of whom are LDS. But there came a point where it was uncomfortable at best raising non-LDS kids there, as they were excluded from a lot. The LDS perspective on certain historical issues is different from the mainstream views, and it was the LDS, not the mainstream views, that were presented to my children in ps there.

For the most part, I don't think that most people meant to be exclusive and insular as they were, but most of them didn't know any other way. When we came home from an activity at our church one Saturday to find the street blocked off for a block party, the neighbors were genuinely surprised that we didn't know anything about it ... it was, after all, discussed ad infinitum in various ward committees and groups, and it was announced after Sacrament meeting for many weeks, as well as in the ward emails.

Prayer before public school functions in LDS style was common in our public school experience there (Granite district west side, so not as heavily LDS as some other areas of the state, or even the Salt Lake Valley). We chose to go with the flow, as there was never anything really contrary to our beliefs stated in the prayers.

Eventually, it got to the point where we realized that our children were going to be so limited (we already were in a homeschool dance group where none of the girls were allowed to talk to dd outside of class because we weren't LDS -- these were 6-8 year-olds) that we chose to leave. I miss my friends still, but it was the right thing for my dc.

My cousin is LDS (my uncle converted when he met my aunt), and he talks about living in UT off and on, but always left, because after being raised in NC, HI, and CA, the Utah culture was just too overwhelming for him.

 

Ugh! That's why I want to do my part to change things. I'm sorry for the way people treated your family. :grouphug:

 

Dh and I talk a lot about moving to another state, but the reality is that his career is doing extremely well here due to his contacts and Utah's strong economy. Moving would be a financial mistake for us, but I am determined that my kids NOT become "Utah Mormons" despite having to live here!

[higginszoo]

Ugh! That's why I want to do my part to change things. I'm sorry for the way people treated your family. :grouphug:

 

Dh and I talk a lot about moving to another state, but the reality is that his career is doing extremely well here due to his contacts and Utah's strong economy. Moving would be a financial mistake for us, but I am determined that my kids NOT become "Utah Mormons" despite having to live here!

You CAN raise nonUtah-Mormon, LDS kids IN Utah. My best friend there has never lived outside the Salt Lake Valley, and she's one of the most down-to-earth, non-judgemental people I've met. Of course, this sometimes has made her feel like an oddball in her ward, but that's probably not the only reason. ;) Her dc have picked up on her attitude, and are pretty open-minded as well. My kids' piano teacher (who was a work friend of my dh) was similar. She'd rarely been out of Utah, but you wouldn't have known it.

 

It seems like you do a good job of exposing your children to people from other backgrounds, to the fact that everyone doesn't believe what you believe and that that's ok, etc. The fact that you even noticed the thing at the school tells me that your children aren't going to grow up that way, as my experience is that the majority of the people there have never even thought about things like that. While the dance studio stuff was malicious, more often we were faced with block party situations where it honestly never even occurred to people that anyone ever did anything different to them because nobody had ever bothered to expose them to the idea.

[Maus]

Ugh! That's why I want to do my part to change things. I'm sorry for the way people treated your family. :grouphug:

 

Dh and I talk a lot about moving to another state, but the reality is that his career is doing extremely well here due to his contacts and Utah's strong economy. Moving would be a financial mistake for us, but I am determined that my kids NOT become "Utah Mormons" despite having to live here!

May I say something very gently? It doesn't have anything to do with where you are born and grow up; it has to do with how you are raised and what your life experiences are and your personality. I am a Utah Mormon: I was born here and grew up here, except for four years from ages 4-8. I've lived my entire adult life here except from the 18 months I was a missionary in Austria. Yet, my parents were imports. My mom was a convert, so all her relatives are not LDS. My dad grew up in an inactive family, so most of his relatives weren't practicing LDS. We traveled a lot, read a lot, discussed tolerance and other points of view.

 

It can vary even in the same family, as seen in DH's extended family. He has one sister who is the very epitome of what a "Utah Mormon" is thought to be, yet his parents aren't particularly so, and he and his brother are the exact opposite. (His dad and brother served European missions, though his brother wasn't a "Utah Mormon" even before he left. DH served in the foreign country of "Mizura" :lol: [Missouri].)

 

I had a mission companion from Southern California who had a very narrow, sheltered view of life. She spent the first half of her mission in a constant state of shock: at the Catholic way of doing things; at the more publicly naked culture in Europe; at missionaries who broke rules. Fortunately, she was not narrow-minded, and she did grow and learn, but we "Utah" mormons laughed at her quite a bit for her somewhat arrogant assumption that she was more worldly than us because she grew up outside Utah juxtaposed with her obvious naivete.

 

Yes, there are some Utah natives that fit the "Utah Mormon" stereotype, but not all of us do. And there are many non-natives that also fit it. It is hurtful to those of us born here who have been taught to be otherwise to be lumped in with those who are sheltered as if the circumstances of our birth force us to be that way.

 

Teach your children to be tolerant of other points of view, whether the points of view are outside of your faith or inside of your faith. Teach them that where and to whom you are born are less important than what you do with your life and your self-education. Teach them not to be sneeringly arrogant of a mass group of people without getting to know the individuals.

 

You CAN raise nonUtah-Mormon, LDS kids IN Utah. My best friend there has never lived outside the Salt Lake Valley, and she's one of the most down-to-earth, non-judgemental people I've met. Of course, this sometimes has made her feel like an oddball in her ward, but that's probably not the only reason. ;) Her dc have picked up on her attitude, and are pretty open-minded as well. My kids' piano teacher (who was a work friend of my dh) was similar. She'd rarely been out of Utah, but you wouldn't have known it.

 

It seems like you do a good job of exposing your children to people from other backgrounds, to the fact that everyone doesn't believe what you believe and that that's ok, etc. The fact that you even noticed the thing at the school tells me that your children aren't going to grow up that way, as my experience is that the majority of the people there have never even thought about things like that. While the dance studio stuff was malicious, more often we were faced with block party situations where it honestly never even occurred to people that anyone ever did anything different to them because nobody had ever bothered to expose them to the idea.

Thank you for that!

[Veritaserum]

May I say something very gently? It doesn't have anything to do with where you are born and grow up; it has to do with how you are raised and what your life experiences are and your personality. I am a Utah Mormon: I was born here and grew up here, except for four years from ages 4-8. I've lived my entire adult life here except from the 18 months I was a missionary in Austria. Yet, my parents were imports. My mom was a convert, so all her relatives are not LDS. My dad grew up in an inactive family, so most of his relatives weren't practicing LDS. We traveled a lot, read a lot, discussed tolerance and other points of view.

 

It can vary even in the same family, as seen in DH's extended family. He has one sister who is the very epitome of what a "Utah Mormon" is thought to be, yet his parents aren't particularly so, and he and his brother are the exact opposite. (His dad and brother served European missions, though his brother wasn't a "Utah Mormon" even before he left. DH served in the foreign country of "Mizura" :lol: [Missouri].)

 

I had a mission companion from Southern California who had a very narrow, sheltered view of life. She spent the first half of her mission in a constant state of shock: at the Catholic way of doing things; at the more publicly naked culture in Europe; at missionaries who broke rules. Fortunately, she was not narrow-minded, and she did grow and learn, but we "Utah" mormons laughed at her quite a bit for her somewhat arrogant assumption that she was more worldly than us because she grew up outside Utah juxtaposed with her obvious naivete.

 

Yes, there are some Utah natives that fit the "Utah Mormon" stereotype, but not all of us do. And there are many non-natives that also fit it. It is hurtful to those of us born here who have been taught to be otherwise to be lumped in with those who are sheltered as if the circumstances of our birth force us to be that way.

 

Teach your children to be tolerant of other points of view, whether the points of view are outside of your faith or inside of your faith. Teach them that where and to whom you are born are less important than what you do with your life and your self-education. Teach them not to be sneeringly arrogant of a mass group of people without getting to know the individuals.

 

I agree that how you are raised makes a difference. WRT "Utah Mormon" I thought it was clear that I was speaking to the stereotype and not painting all native Utahns who are LDS with the same brush. In earlier posts I made an effort to qualify my comments with "many members here" lest anyone think these behaviors are universal, even though they are pervasive. I'm sorry if I made that unclear. :grouphug: I am very grateful for associations I've had with native Utahns who are open-minded and considerate. :) And yes, there are those who fit the "Utah Mormon" stereotype that have never lived in Utah or who are not natives of this state.

[Maus]

 

I agree that how you are raised makes a difference. WRT "Utah Mormon" I thought it was clear that I was speaking to the stereotype and not painting all native Utahns who are LDS with the same brush. In earlier posts I made an effort to qualify my comments with "many members here" lest anyone think these behaviors are universal, even though they are pervasive. I'm sorry if I made that unclear. :grouphug: I am very grateful for associations I've had with native Utahns who are open-minded and considerate. :) And yes, there are those who fit the "Utah Mormon" stereotype that have never lived in Utah or who are not natives of this state.

It was clear, but using the term â€Utah Mormon†to refer to a â€sheltered Mormon†leaves those of us who love both our state and our religion, but who aren't sheltered, with no identity.

[Butter]

May I say something very gently? It doesn't have anything to do with where you are born and grow up; it has to do with how you are raised and what your life experiences are and your personality. I am a Utah Mormon: I was born here and grew up here, except for four years from ages 4-8. I've lived my entire adult life here except from the 18 months I was a missionary in Austria. Yet, my parents were imports. My mom was a convert, so all her relatives are not LDS. My dad grew up in an inactive family, so most of his relatives weren't practicing LDS. We traveled a lot, read a lot, discussed tolerance and other points of view.

 

You sound like my best friend right down to the dad being from an inactive family not from UT. Her mom's a lifer, though, and from UT. She and I were recently talking about how she is not a typical Utah Mormon (hah... she's inactive-ish herself right now lol) and we decided it's how she was raised. I honestly think it's easier to be a Mormon *outside* of Utah in so many ways. There aren't too many of us (if my kids were in public school Ani'd be one of four Mormons in the entire middle school and Cameron and Fritz would be the only ones in their elementary school) so weird things like not talking to non-members just isn't possible (nor would that be at all okay with us). It's a lot easier in UT to think everyone is the same and "everyone" is Mormon and kind of forget that some people aren't. (FTR, I'd be hesitant to live in UT and my brother quit teaching at BYU before his girls got too big because of some of the UT Mormon culture things he didn't like.)

[LibraryLover]

It would bother me. A general prayer of thnaks would be ok. Kind words beforehand etc. Mentioning a particular diety in a prayer in public school setting doesn't seem right. It's not that I am overly sensitive; it just does not seem appropriate.

[kamom]

Having lived in many places where my religion is not the majority I can say with absolutely no equivocation that I would have NO issue with it.

 

What people here forget is that sometimes the majority do get their own way. It is NOT an infringement of rights that someone might listen to a prayer to something that they do not believe in. It is not illegal, it is not unconstitutional, it is simply part of living in a society.

 

No one is asking you to believe (though in places that I have been {overseas} there IS real pressure to conform) simply to be quiet and listen politely. If that is too much of a burden then then the anti-social and intolerant behavior is yours not the person praying.

:iagree:

[Sneezyone]

The difference for me is that other countries often lack legal separation between church and state. The church and state are essentially one, even if in name only. In those places, one has no right to expect or demand a separation.

[Hannah C.]

The founding fathers did not intend for public officials working in their official capacity such as teachers and principals endorse religion. I suggest going to the National Archives and read the documents there:) Thomas Jefferson is quite clear on separation of church and state.

 

Now if teachers and principals want to pray outside their official duties that is quite fine. If one wants prayer officiated at school then go to a private religious school IMO.

 

The founding fathers had prayers before government meetings - prayers which were deist in nature, if not Christian. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were two founding fathers who advocated strongly for separation of church and state, but there were others (like John Adams IIRC) who disagreed. Before the ratification of the Bill of Rights, multiple states had religious requirements for holding office outlined in their state constitutions. After the ratification of the Bill of Rights, some states *introduced* religious stuff into their constitutions.

 

The fact is, the United States' current position on separation of church and state is pretty recent and been a while in developing. I think we're much better off now than we were back when religion was more present in the public eye, but that doesn't erase the religious history of the US.

[scooby-do]

Public or not, I don't think prayer in any setting should be frowned upon. YOU don't have to pray. This is a problem that has only really made it's showing in the recent past. People may be uncomfortable with it but why should others stop to ease your discomfort when you can easily just NOT pray? Life provides many opportunities to practice tolerance. This is one of those times.

 

I agree.

 

Seperation of church and state. I don't think people really understand what that means.

In a letter, Jefferson is actually responding to a letter he had received from the Danbury Baptists of Danbury, CT. They feared that the government would adopt a state religion and their minority views would be outlawed as they had been in England. Jefferson wrote his letter to reassure them that they would remain free to worship as they wished. He borrowed the term wall of separation from the Baptist minister Roger Williams.

Neither the constitution nor Jeffersons letter suggests that religious expression must be kept out of the public arena.

Edited April 23, 2012 by scooby-do

[dancer67]

I agree.

 

Seperation of church and state. I don't think people really understand what that means.

In a letter, Jefferson is actually responding to a letter he had received from the Danbury Baptists of Danbury, CT. They feared that the government would adopt a state religion and their minority views would be outlawed as they had been in England. Jefferson wrote his letter to reassure them that they would remain free to worship as they wished. He borrowed the term wall of separation from the Baptist minister Roger Williams.

Neither the constitution nor Jeffersons letter suggests that religious expression must be kept out of the public arena.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[NASDAQ]

 

Seperation of church and state. I don't think people really understand what that means.

In a letter, Jefferson is actually responding to a letter he had received from the Danbury Baptists of Danbury, CT. They feared that the government would adopt a state religion and their minority views would be outlawed as they had been in England. Jefferson wrote his letter to reassure them that they would remain free to worship as they wished. He borrowed the term wall of separation from the Baptist minister Roger Williams.

Neither the constitution nor Jeffersons letter suggests that religious expression must be kept out of the public arena.

 

This is irrelevant. Fifty years of judicial decisions are clear that the constitution as currently mandated forbids schools to sponsor prayer. What Jefferson wrote in 1802 is not germane anymore than it is germane to a modern discussion on whether your taxes are due, that it was widely held at one time that the Constitution forbid income taxation.

 

No one suggests that "religious expression must be kept out of the public arena." Instead people are saying that the public schools -- agents of the government -- should not promote a religion. If you want to have your own, private concert, and pray before it, go for it.

[merry gardens]

This is irrelevant. Fifty years of judicial decisions are clear that the constitution as currently mandated forbids schools to sponsor prayer. What Jefferson wrote in 1802 is not germane anymore than it is germane to a modern discussion on whether your taxes are due, that it was widely held at one time that the Constitution forbid income taxation. ...

Umm...The 16th Ammendment of the Constitution addressed concerns of income taxes being unconstitutional by formally ammending the Constitution to allow income tax. However, no one has changed formally changed the Constitution to specifically forbid prayer at public schools, therefore what the founders wrote about the subject is indeed relevant to the discussion.