Grade Inflation for Education Majors (I actually gasped)

[nmoira]

Even after reading the introduction, I still gasped upon seeing the charts.

 

http://www.aei.org/outlook/101072

 

This phenomenon doesn't serve the best interests of prospective teachers.

Edited August 25, 2011 by nmoira

[Jen in PA]

I was shocked by the low standards in my graduate program in elementary and early childhood education. Papers that would have earned a C in my very average high school were considered A papers there, and this was a master's degree program! While I was working on that degree I had a job as a research assistant in the English department, grading undergraduates' papers. The undergrads were graded much more critically than the grad students.

[Mama Geek]

When I was in college in the mid to late 90's engineers usually had lower GPA's than ed majors. I saw some of the work they had to do and it was no wonder...right a book report on See Spot Run (now they had to do hundreds of these in a semester, but come on.) They made collages, colored, made up stories which I realize is a lot of what teachers in school do, but they should have been getting an education in history, math, english, science...rather than this type of stuff.

 

I don't think their higher GPA's are solely due to grade inflation, it also has to do with the lack of rigor. This is a generalization not something that is 100% so if you are a teacher that is well educated please don't take offense. I have friends who have been teachers that are very smart.

[Murmer]

I know for my ed program you where kicked out if you got a C in a class...but none of the classes where curved they were all points based so if you did the work you got the grade, with minor differences as a result of tests or a paper.

[athena1277]

When I was in college in the mid to late 90's engineers usually had lower GPA's than ed majors. I saw some of the work they had to do and it was no wonder...right a book report on See Spot Run (now they had to do hundreds of these in a semester, but come on.) They made collages, colored, made up stories which I realize is a lot of what teachers in school do, but they should have been getting an education in history, math, english, science...rather than this type of stuff.

 

I don't think their higher GPA's are solely due to grade inflation, it also has to do with the lack of rigor. This is a generalization not something that is 100% so if you are a teacher that is well educated please don't take offense. I have friends who have been teachers that are very smart.

 

:iagree:I have a Secondary Education degree. Education classes focus a lot on the "how's" and theories of education and not much at all on the content of those students will soon be teaching.

 

That may be a significant reason why many schools are not doing so well.

[sweetbasil]

A friend who was a solid C student (with a lot of effort) in High School got nearly a 4.0 in her undergrad Ed courses.

 

She asked me to edit her term papers on occasion. They were ATROCIOUS. Even with major help they were still no better than C- work.

 

In her MASTER'S program she had to make a display poster about metamorphosis. I remember her thoughtfully explaining how she had used cotton balls to replicate the cocoon. Seriously??? In a Master's program? She got a 4 point in grad school too!

 

She now teaches at one of the "best" public schools in the country. :001_huh:

[ktgrok]

I think that is partly rigor, and partly that science/engineering classes grade on a bell curve, with the goal to have most students getting Cs. If more than a small portion are getting As the teacher will make the test harder, up to and including putting information on there that has not been taught. It was one of the reasons I changed my major. I was annoyed that I could know all the material taught, but because I wasn't a science prodigy I wouldn't get an A.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

In college, I took Intro to Education, taught by a woman who had taught 1st grade for 31 years. She assigned us all various people to research and give reports on their philosophies of education. I was assigned Plato. When she handed back my paper (which was mediocre at best), it had a huge pink bunny sticker on it that said "Good Report". :confused:

 

It was then that I started thinking education classes might not be for me. It took two more Ed classes with two different professors to drop out of the Ed program.

 

In grad school, I had to take a few language acquisition classes through the education department, and the expectations in those classes were far lower than in my other graduate level classes.

[BarbecueMom]

This is why my college did not offer bachelors degrees in education. If you wanted to be a teacher, you had to pick an academic major, tack on pre-Masters in Education courses, graduate with a 3.0 GPA, apply to the graduate program and finish the degree, thesis, and student teaching before getting your certification. You could emphasize in your subject field or in elementary education, and many students would do dual Masters programs.

 

It was a good program, but I stopped after my BA. I would have to get a Masters if I wanted to get a teaching certification now.

[sassenach]

This is why my college did not offer bachelors degrees in education. If you wanted to be a teacher, you had to pick an academic major, tack on pre-Masters in Education courses, graduate with a 3.0 GPA, apply to the graduate program and finish the degree, thesis, and student teaching before getting your certification. You could emphasize in your subject field or in elementary education, and many students would do dual Masters programs.

 

It was a good program, but I stopped after my BA. I would have to get a Masters if I wanted to get a teaching certification now.

 

What school?

[ElizabethB]

Even after reading the introduction, I still gasped upon seeing the charts.

 

http://www.aei.org/outlook/101072

 

This phenomenon doesn't serve the best interests of prospective teachers.

 

:iagree:

 

Interesting, thanks.

 

Those graphs are quite vivid.

[BarbecueMom]

What school?

 

Truman State University

[nmoira]

Bolding mine.

 

I don't think their higher GPA's are solely due to grade inflation, it also has to do with the lack of rigor. This is a generalization not something that is 100% so if you are a teacher that is well educated please don't take offense. I have friends who have been teachers that are very smart.

But I think the two feed on each other, as to a certain degree we rise to the expectations placed upon us; when when told that what elsewhere would be considered merely adequate is worthy of an "A," well, IME most people aren't inclined to argue unless they have a personal basis for comparison.

[nmoira]

In college, I took Intro to Education, taught by a woman who had taught 1st grade for 31 years. She assigned us all various people to research and give reports on their philosophies of education. I was assigned Plato. When she handed back my paper (which was mediocre at best), it had a huge pink bunny sticker on it that said "Good Report". :confused:

 

I'm guessing it wasn't an ironic pink bunny. :blink:

[kiana]

And this is why we have prospective math majors in tears because they can't get their math GPA over the 2.5 needed for certification saying 'but I have As in all of my education courses!'

[myfunnybunch]

This was my experience in undergrad elementary ed...twenty+ years ago. Eek, I am getting OLD! Anyway, my point is that I could have passed my classes with my eyes closed.

 

I wonder if the requirements are the same or different as they were 20-some years ago. I did not have many education-specific classes, as in "How to teach ____" but we were required to take at least two history classes, a geography class, choose from a list of classes that taught in some way about culture or society (anthropology, for example), literature or linguistics, and so on. I wonder if a part of the expectation is that teachers will get basic instruction in writing, language, culture, history, geography from a sampling of undergraduate courses. (Such high rigor and expectations there, right? :tongue_smilie: ) A little of a rabbit trail, since it doesn't have much to do with grade inflation. But unless we adopt a national curriculum, it would be difficult to tailor an undergrad elementary ed course of study to what teachers will need to teach in elementary school.

 

Cat

[butterflymommy]

In the years my kids were in school, I was shocked by the teacher-written newsletters sent home that were riddled with glaring spelling and grammatical errors. I couldn't understand how someone with such poor writing skills could have obtained a higher degree in education. It makes a little more sense after reading this study. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm also wishing I had gone into education in graduate school. As it was, I burned out quickly because I was in a difficult field. I ended up dropping out. Sounds like I could have gotten a MEd with both hands tied behind my back.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I'm guessing it wasn't an ironic pink bunny. :blink:

 

Nope. She also made us sit in a big circle on the floor. I'm sadly not kidding. I kept trying to ask the others around me if this was ridiculous or not, but they didn't seem to want to stir the pot. The icing on the cake was in another class, I had to observe a six grade science class. I was supposed to take kids out in the hallway and have them roll pieces of clay into shapes and write down my observations. Since it was over 20 years ago, I don't remember what the point of that exercise was, but it was stupid enough (to me) that I dropped out of the education program then and there.

[Hwin]

I used to tutor an El Ed major. Her book reports were on children's books, and she said "fun and interesting" at least fifty times (and we are talking about ONE PAGE book reports!).

 

ex. This is a fun and interesting book! Children will enjoy reading about Sam I Am as he tries to get the other guy to eat green eggs and ham in many interesting ways. The ending is fun! This is an interesting book to read!

... and so forth.

 

She had a 4.0.

 

The kids at the end of Reading Rainbow gave better book reviews...

 

I went to a moderately selective school for a BA and MA... it was always very obvious which students were Ed majors :/

[FairProspects]

Threads like this just encourage the myth "that anyone can teach."

 

It is just not true and varies so much by university and region. Especially after No Child Left Behind, requirements went way, way up in terms of what teachers to do to be Highly Qualified. Most younger teachers (those certified post 2000) do have a degree in their subject matter and even most elementary teachers no longer major in education. My university didn't even offer an undergraduate degree in education. Almost all teachers here now have to get a Masters in addition to a secondary 2-year college re-certification or National Board Certification. These are some of the requirements of NCLB.

 

ETA: There is so much negativity in the media and public perception surrounding teachers lately that I don't know who in their right mind would choose it as a profession!

Edited August 25, 2011 by FairProspects

[UnsinkableKristen]

 

The kids at the end of Reading Rainbow gave better book reviews...

 

:lol:

[mommymilkies]

I'm really not surprised. I won't name the person, but someone close to me can barely read-remedial classes in everything after barely passing high school. She gets so outrageously wasted 2-3 times a week, and still graduated with honors for her Ed degree. This is not a person I would want teaching my children. And she's above average for many of the people I went to school with who went on to teach or that I taught *with* in the past. I will say I find the opposite in Special Ed, though. That is a tough program at my old school and it is very rigorous. I worked with some amazing Sp Ed teachers.

[FO4UR]

I have a BSE Music Ed. The Ed classes were "easy A's." My music classes were challenging. My voice instructor had her reputation at stake when I performed representing the school. The theory teacher - same - and I earned every C+ I received with blood, sweat and tears. My degree is almost like a double major...and there was a distinct difference in quality/atmosphere of the courses in the 2 departments.

 

Honestly, the "straw that broke the camels back" in convincing dh that HSing is the very best option for our family was my asking him, "Do you really want _______ teaching our children how to read? Do you really want _______ teaching our children how to write? Do you really want _______ teaching our children math?" :001_huh: His response, "NO!!!" :lol:

 

I also edited some papers that were unbelievable. Humbly (as a person who knows her grammar kills kitten's and all sorts of other critter's:tongue_smilie:), I am appalled at what slid through the Ed dept when I was in college. I graduated 2002 (Cum Laude).

 

I've seen some recent samples of ps kids' writing, and it's a spittin' image of the stuff I seen in college. (Yes, I seen...:banghead:)

[JennyD]

I know little about education as an academic field, but in general I would hesitant to automatically conclude that grade inflation or deflation has anything to do with actual academic quality. I mean, I've taught at a number of different colleges/universities, and I grade on whatever curve they give me. It doesn't have anything to do with what I actually cover in the course, or even what I put on the final exam.

 

Along similar lines, IME Ph.D. programs across the board generally also grade coursework very generously, way more so than undergraduate programs, but I wouldn't say that doctoral classes are automatically less demanding than undergraduate ones. And top law schools have a way more generous curve than lower-ranked ones; again, it doesn't mean that the classes at Yale Law are necessarily less demanding than those at fourth-tier schools, just that a lot more people get top marks.

 

What I found interesting, though, was this:

 

"The fundamental problem is simple: there is no pressure from competitive markets in education."

 

If education students are all getting As, then how do hiring personnel decide whom to hire? Returning to the law school example above, I think that most people familiar with the scene would agree that the disparity in grading curves has to do with the relative power of the schools vis-a-vis the employers -- employers simply can't/don't pressure top schools to pre-sort students the way they do lower-ranked schools. Why doesn't the education job market exert the same pressures, I wonder? Surely the most desirable jobs must get lots of candidates applying. How do they choose?

[zenjenn]

I can't say I am surprised. One of the proverbial straws that caused me to pull my daughter out of school was the fact that her teachers could not even spell or use correct punctuation. I'm not talking about typos, here, I'm talking bulletin boards, spelling books, and letters to parents. :glare:

[Julie Smith]

I know that writing and everything that goes along with it (Spelling, grammar, ...) isn't my best area. But I plan to out source that to a my cousin a english/history major. I don't plan to outsource it my other family member who has a major in education. Quite frankly it's scary? to hear about how little she knows about writing.

[FriedClams]

In college, I took Intro to Education, taught by a woman who had taught 1st grade for 31 years. She assigned us all various people to research and give reports on their philosophies of education. I was assigned Plato. When she handed back my paper (which was mediocre at best), it had a huge pink bunny sticker on it that said "Good Report". :confused:

 

Seriously, if I had been drinking something my iPad would be swimming right now. The bunny sticker - HYSTERICAL.:lol::lol::lol:

[twoforjoy]

This is why my college did not offer bachelors degrees in education. If you wanted to be a teacher, you had to pick an academic major, tack on pre-Masters in Education courses, graduate with a 3.0 GPA, apply to the graduate program and finish the degree, thesis, and student teaching before getting your certification. You could emphasize in your subject field or in elementary education, and many students would do dual Masters programs.

 

It was a good program, but I stopped after my BA. I would have to get a Masters if I wanted to get a teaching certification now.

 

In some ways, though, I think that's a problem. IME, better (more rigorous, more selective) universities and colleges tend not to offer an undergrad teaching certification program. And, while there may be the benefits you mention, the downside is that, if students at those schools want to go into teaching, they have to get a master's, which they need to pay for. I've got a friend who went to a very good university in my state, and then spent $60K to spend two years in grad school getting her master's in education and teaching certification. On the other hand, students who went to less challenging colleges and universities were able to come out certified.

 

I think the current way things are structured discourages better students from going into education while making it very easy for poorer students to do so. That's not a good system for anybody. I'd love to see either better universities institution more programs to allow undergrads to come out with a teaching certificate or more programs covering the cost of a master's degree for students who did very well as undergrads looking to teach at the K-12 level.

 

The AFT magazine last month was about improving the quality of teacher education.

[Wildiris]

nmoira~ Thanks for the link. A sad but interesting read. I thought this quote telling of the situation:

 

"Education Departments Are Contributing to the Culture of Low Standards for Educators. A superintendent asked a school principal to tell him how many of her teachers were performing well. The principal replied that they were all performing well. Puzzled, the superintendent reminded her that the vast majority of the children at the school were not reading even within a year of grade level, and he asked the question again. The principal's response was unchanged. He then asked the principal which of the teachers at her school would be suitable to teach her own granddaughter. She replied, "Well, if that's the bar, then none of them."

[KS_]

Dh has an El Ed degree and graduated in '98. He went back to college 5 years after high school and wanted to be a teacher, but there were many 18 yo students in the El Ed program because their parents were making them go to college and it was the easiest degree to get. While the older students in his major were there because they truly wanted to get that degree, it was a toss-up with the kids right out of high school. Many had to choose something and that seemed easiest.

[Renee in NC]

Threads like this just encourage the myth "that anyone can teach."

 

It is just not true and varies so much by university and region. Especially after No Child Left Behind, requirements went way, way up in terms of what teachers to do to be Highly Qualified. Most younger teachers (those certified post 2000) do have a degree in their subject matter and even most elementary teachers no longer major in education. My university didn't even offer an undergraduate degree in education. Almost all teachers here now have to get a Masters in addition to a secondary 2-year college re-certification or National Board Certification. These are some of the requirements of NCLB.

 

ETA: There is so much negativity in the media and public perception surrounding teachers lately that I don't know who in their right mind would choose it as a profession!

 

I just looked up what qualifies someone to be "highly qualified" and it didn't include anything near the level you mention. You have to be able to pass the Praxis I and II (in your subject matter), have a bachelor's degree, and a license. I even looked up WA state requirements and didn't find anything beyond bachelor's, licensure, and passing the tests.

 

Licensure requires certain education classes and 24 semester hours in your subject area, but I don't get why that would make someone a "highly qualified" teacher.

 

National Board Certification doesn't require more than a Bachelor's, either.

 

ETA: I wouldn't want to be a teacher, either, though! I am not bashing teachers, just supporting the argument that it doesn't take a lot academically to be a teacher. Who *would* want to be one when the pay is so low and the aggravation so high? My 10yo's teacher last year said she didn't have much time to teach with all the assessing and recording data that she had to do!

Edited August 25, 2011 by Renee in FL

[Mama Geek]

Here is another rabbit hole to consider...why do you even need a college degree to be a teacher teaching anything below maybe high school. Why not just have some sort of evaluation by the schools to see if you know the subject matter for the level you are going to teach and are you good with kids?

[FO4UR]

Here is another rabbit hole to consider...why do you even need a college degree to be a teacher teaching anything below maybe high school. Why not just have some sort of evaluation by the schools to see if you know the subject matter for the level you are going to teach and are you good with kids?

 

 

...b/c then all these teachers with Bach degrees won't be able to get a job...:auto:

[Mama Geek]

...b/c then all these teachers with Bach degrees won't be able to get a job...:auto:

 

:smilielol5:

[twoforjoy]

Just to add, one thing I've noticed is that ed students are, in general, good students. I don't mean by that that they are all the brightest students--I've had some really smart ed students, but many have just been average--but that they are usually good at being students. They tend to hand in their work on time, follow directions, participate in class, and just generally be personable, pleasant, nice people. I don't think we can underestimate how far that can go when it comes to doing well academically.

 

And, honestly, that doesn't bother me. The whole idea that students should be graded solely on the quality of their work has always struck me as kind of silly. People say, "But that's how things work in the real world," but in fact it's not. The only place where people really believe that all that should matter is how you perform is schools and sports. In the real world of work, things like the time you put in, how you respond to authority, how well you get along with others, and things like that absolutely determine your success, just as much if not more than your actual performance. I know that a big part of the reason why I always get teaching sections at the school where I work is not that I'm one of the best teachers or that I get some of the best student reviews--I'm pretty average--but that the woman who does the scheduling really likes me because I'm friendly and personable and always stop to ask her how her grandkids are doing (because I like her and her grandkids are cute, not because I want more teaching).

 

Plus, most ed teachers are people who like teaching and like students, unlike professors in other fields, who often don't particularly enjoy teaching or like students, and may see their teaching work as something they just have to tolerate. So, ed professors might be more likely than many other professors to invest in their students, to think favorably of them, to spend time with them making sure they succeed, and to give them the benefit of the doubt when grading.

 

But, that said, I still think it's a significant problem that the system seems set up to discourage the best students and those with more content knowledge from going into education. I was in a doctoral program, and many of my cohort who finished couldn't find jobs. A number toyed with the idea of going into secondary ed, but they couldn't. Even though they had a Ph.D. and had been teaching at the university-level (at a well-respected university) for years, they would have had to pay for a master's program in order to be certified, and in many cases would have had to have taken a semester or more of undergrad courses just to be able to start the ed program. I think it's ridiculous that a person with a doctorate in English who wants to teach high school English classes should be told that first they need to take a biology class and a course on the history of Michigan in order to be accepted into the teacher certification program. Those kinds of requirements just don't make a whole lot of sense, and I think they create an environment where K-12 teaching becomes impractical or unappealing to people who have advanced degrees in their field.

[KS_]

 

ETA: I wouldn't want to be a teacher, either, though! I am not bashing teachers, just supporting the argument that it doesn't take a lot academically to be a teacher. Who *would* want to be one when the pay is so low and the aggravation so high? My 10yo's teacher last year said she didn't have much time to teach with all the assessing and recording data that she had to do!

 

The low pay is the main reason why dh didn't continue to pursue a job teaching. His first job after college was as a tech guy at a school, which paid more than the starting teacher's salary and combined his interest in computers and technology with teaching. And then he was offered a job totally in the IT field back in his home town a couple years later and took that and hasn't gone back. In a perfect world, he still would love to teach - he's a great teacher, which is why people love him in IT (good with people and technology), but we just couldn't do it financially.

[Julie Smith]

Here is another rabbit hole to consider...why do you even need a college degree to be a teacher teaching anything below maybe high school. Why not just have some sort of evaluation by the schools to see if you know the subject matter for the level you are going to teach and are you good with kids?

 

Funny you should mention this. I just finished reading a book in the little house series. Laura was 16 and had passed her level ? certification test and got a job teaching at a school for 9? weeks. After her contract was up she went back to her old school to study for the next teachers test which would allow her to teach a higher level of school.

[FairProspects]

I just looked up what qualifies someone to be "highly qualified" and it didn't include anything near the level you mention. You have to be able to pass the Praxis I and II (in your subject matter), have a bachelor's degree, and a license. I even looked up WA state requirements and didn't find anything beyond bachelor's, licensure, and passing the tests.

 

Licensure requires certain education classes and 24 semester hours in your subject area, but I don't get why that would make someone a "highly qualified" teacher.

 

National Board Certification doesn't require more than a Bachelor's, either.

 

ETA: I wouldn't want to be a teacher, either, though! I am not bashing teachers, just supporting the argument that it doesn't take a lot academically to be a teacher. Who *would* want to be one when the pay is so low and the aggravation so high? My 10yo's teacher last year said she didn't have much time to teach with all the assessing and recording data that she had to do!

 

The licensing requirements are complex and difficult to decipher, not to mention they change all the time.

 

A Primary Endorsement in WA for the purposes of teacher certification in a teacher education program (post 2000) requires 45 semester hours in the subject you intend to teach. This is equivalent to a major. I'm not sure how this works for Elem. Ed as I am only certified Secondary, but I think they have a breakdown of those requirements into specific subject classes (1 geography, 1 history, 1 lab science, etc.). Once you are already certified, you can add additional endorsements at 24 semester hours or the equivalent of a minor as Secondary Endorsements. Thus, if you want a Primary Endorsement in multiple areas, you must have a major in each to be deemed Highly Qualified. I'm not sure if this is actually written into the NCLB act or if that is just how WA has interpreted it into certification.

 

The original certification you are offered in WA is a Residency Certificate. You are required within 2 years of full-time teaching to upgrade that certificate to a Professional Certificate. This certification can only be obtained through a university program that is 2-3 years long at night, and requires the amount of credits equivalent to a Masters degree. If you were initially certified in a Masters degree program, you must still obtain the Professional Certificate during this time frame in addition to all your Masters degree coursework. National Board Certification requires even more university classes as well as a ton of other requirements too long to list here.

 

A Masters degree is not required, but the way the state has structured the certification & compensation process, most teachers have to complete it initially to get certified or get it as a by product of needing a Professional Certificate.

 

All to say, there is a LOT of school required here in both your subject and educational research/methodology to get certified and stay certified and it is not nearly as easy in real life as anything I've seen described on these boards.

[Mommy22alyns]

nmoira~ Thanks for the link. A sad but interesting read. I thought this quote telling of the situation:

 

"Education Departments Are Contributing to the Culture of Low Standards for Educators. A superintendent asked a school principal to tell him how many of her teachers were performing well. The principal replied that they were all performing well. Puzzled, the superintendent reminded her that the vast majority of the children at the school were not reading even within a year of grade level, and he asked the question again. The principal's response was unchanged. He then asked the principal which of the teachers at her school would be suitable to teach her own granddaughter. She replied, "Well, if that's the bar, then none of them."

 

 

:iagree: Very telling.

[In The Great White North]

The licensing requirements are complex and difficult to decipher, not to mention they change all the time.

 

A Primary Endorsement in WA for the purposes of teacher certification in a teacher education program (post 2000) requires 45 semester hours in the subject you intend to teach. This is equivalent to a major. I'm not sure how this works for Elem. Ed as I am only certified Secondary, but I think they have a breakdown of those requirements into specific subject classes (1 geography, 1 history, 1 lab science, etc.). Once you are already certified, you can add additional endorsements at 24 semester hours or the equivalent of a minor as Secondary Endorsements. Thus, if you want a Primary Endorsement in multiple areas, you must have a major in each to be deemed Highly Qualified. I'm not sure if this is actually written into the NCLB act or if that is just how WA has interpreted it into certification.

 

The original certification you are offered in WA is a Residency Certificate. You are required within 2 years of full-time teaching to upgrade that certificate to a Professional Certificate. This certification can only be obtained through a university program that is 2-3 years long at night, and requires the amount of credits equivalent to a Masters degree. If you were initially certified in a Masters degree program, you must still obtain the Professional Certificate during this time frame in addition to all your Masters degree coursework. National Board Certification requires even more university classes as well as a ton of other requirements too long to list here.

 

A Masters degree is not required, but the way the state has structured the certification & compensation process, most teachers have to complete it initially to get certified or get it as a by product of needing a Professional Certificate.

 

All to say, there is a LOT of school required here in both your subject and educational research/methodology to get certified and stay certified and it is not nearly as easy in real life as anything I've seen described on these boards.

All this shows it that it takes a lot of time and money to be certified in the state of Washington. If these courses, numerous as they may be, are graded on the inflated scale shown in the article, they contribute nothing to the education of Washington state students. I've yet to see any documentation/proof of any resulting benefit to the K-12 students of any teacher certification program.

 

Lacking proof of a benefit to (K-12) students, this onerous teacher certification program is nothing more than a job security program for the education departments of Washington's colleges.

 

FTR, I have a M. Ed.

[FairProspects]

All this shows it that it takes a lot of time and money to be certified in the state of Washington. If these courses, numerous as they may be, are graded on the inflated scale shown in the article, they contribute nothing to the education of Washington state students. I've yet to see any documentation/proof of any resulting benefit to the K-12 students of any teacher certification program.

Lacking proof of a benefit to (K-12) students, this onerous teacher certification program is nothing more than a job security program for the education departments of Washington's colleges.

 

FTR, I have a M. Ed.

 

I definitely agree with the bolded, however, I do think that the initial coursework is of benefit to K-12 students.

 

My point in suggesting the amount of coursework required though, was that the 45 credits needed to gain Primary Endorsements (ETA: Secondary Endorsements as well for that matter) are done in regular university departments, not the College of Education. The trend here at least is away from courses in the College of Ed, at least until the certification or Masters level, and towards classes in the regular College of Arts and Sciences, which would make the grade inflation graph less relevant than it might first appear.

 

FWIW, my anecdotal experience was that my most difficult courses were Latin, Calculus, Molecular Biology, and Educational Research (which was in the College of Education) so I did not find Education to be more grade inflated than other academic departments. I was Secondary Ed. rather than Primary, which is by nature more subject focused, so I never got graded on "See Spot Run" or any of that.

Edited August 25, 2011 by FairProspects
Because I can't get acronyms right!

[WIS0320]

I think our schools have declined considerably since the 70s when women no longer had the three options of teacher, nurse or secretary. A lot of really bright women decided to do something else with their lives instead of teaching children. Of course there are still some really great teachers who are hard working and intelligent but I think they are far more rare.

 

I grew up in a college town and the running joke was always that kids would drop from engineering to business and finally to education as they sought an easier course load. I also think paying teachers crummy salaries and requiring all sorts of extra work that is not part of actually educating children (bus duty, lunch monitoring, coaching, after school clubs, etc.) along with the test mentality have really detracted from education as being an attractive field to go into. Oh, and lets not forget the lack of authority teachers have in their classrooms.

 

My mother was a professor for 5 years at a state university and she was a part of the Education department. She finally retired early because she could not cope with the pressure to plump up grades for students and was never backed up in circumstances regarding plagiarism or denying students passing grades if they had failed to show up consistently for class or complete their coursework. It is really very depressing how low the standards were.

[EKS]

I had this experience in three master's level education courses I took. I figured out that I could actually not answer the question that was asked or speak to the topic and still get an A. I asked around and found out that everyone was getting As on everything. So I quit in the middle of the fourth course.

[amey311]

I had several thoughts as I read this thread. First, I considered my elementary education program to be strong. I didn't just sail through, but I also didn't spend 4 years working as hard as I possibly could and stressing over my GPA. Second, I thought that if I posted that, it might reinforce this idea that education programs aren't rigorous. It's a bit of a catch-22.

 

I graduated from a NYS public high school in the top ten of my class. My grades earned me an academic scholarship equal to half of my tuition/room and board, and that was renewed as long as I maintained a 3.5 GPA. I graduated from a liberal arts college with a double (not dual) major in elementary education and Spanish with a 3.75 GPA.

 

In my Intro to Ed class, both professors who taught it had a policy of not reading a paper past 6 errors. Once you reached that, your paper would be returned to you (ungraded) so that you could revise and resubmit it. The resubmitted paper would automatically start one letter grade lower (so the best you could do was a B ). Two papers broke me of my comma splices (but for message boards? I'm a liberal "comma sprinkler." So sue me.). I found my education classes relatively challenging with similar academic requirements to Intro to Ed. Maybe it helped that it was a smaller school with small departments, so the professors new the students a bit better? I knew I couldn't write fluff work because Kay and Peter and Connie kept high standards. At one point we were told that they graded strictly (strict grammar rules, etc) because we would be TEACHING these things and if we can't write well ourselves, how will we be able to teach other people how to write correctly. We were also reminded that teachers frequently have to write or contribute to grant proposals and that a simple misspelling could lose your school tens of thousands of dollars (or more!), so we needed to be conscientious.

 

As a stupid example, we were required to turn in 3 copies of every paper we wrote. One was graded and returned to us, one the professor kept and one the education department kept (I assume for plagiarism reasons). I turned something in at the last minute, and in my rush, had one page in one of the copies upside down when they were stapled. I lost 10 points or something for carelessness. I was annoyed (they had to pick that one to grade?? argh!), but didn't fight the grade because yeah - I had been careless.

 

I found the required General Education classes I had to take (like Foundations of Modern Math and English 101 and 102) less so, but I was a diligent student.

 

FWIW, I had a friend who was an accounting major who had done well in high school but hadn't memorized the there/their/they're rule, and never knew which one to use.

 

ETA: I passed the NYS Teacher Certification Exam and the one for Connecticut. I never got my permanent certification (which would've required a Masters Degree and other continuing education things) because I wasn't sure I wanted to really teach elementary school once i'd graduated. I did teach preschool which I enjoyed. Now, as a homeschooling mom of elementary aged children I either get "so, do you think you'll EVER use your degree" or "how great that you can use your degree with your own children."

Edited August 25, 2011 by amey311

[Alte Veste Academy]

nmoira~ Thanks for the link. A sad but interesting read. I thought this quote telling of the situation:

 

"Education Departments Are Contributing to the Culture of Low Standards for Educators. A superintendent asked a school principal to tell him how many of her teachers were performing well. The principal replied that they were all performing well. Puzzled, the superintendent reminded her that the vast majority of the children at the school were not reading even within a year of grade level, and he asked the question again. The principal's response was unchanged. He then asked the principal which of the teachers at her school would be suitable to teach her own granddaughter. She replied, "Well, if that's the bar, then none of them."

 

Sad. If I were superintendent, that would kind of make me want to fire that principal.

 

For those who liked the article and want to read more, I highly recommend Who's Teaching Your Children. It is written by teachers. If you ever get down in the dumps, wondering if you are crazy to be homeschooling, it's a real pick-me-up. I keep it on a big shelf of books I'm prepared to hand to naysayers if necessary. :tongue_smilie:

Edited August 25, 2011 by Alte Veste Academy

[Coffeemama]

:iagree:

I can't say I am surprised. One of the proverbial straws that caused me to pull my daughter out of school was the fact that her teachers could not even spell or use correct punctuation. I'm not talking about typos, here, I'm talking bulletin boards, spelling books, and letters to parents. :glare:

[Coffeemama]

I just looked up what qualifies someone to be "highly qualified" and it didn't include anything near the level you mention. You have to be able to pass the Praxis I and II (in your subject matter), have a bachelor's degree, and a license. I even looked up WA state requirements and didn't find anything beyond bachelor's, licensure, and passing the tests.

 

Licensure requires certain education classes and 24 semester hours in your subject area, but I don't get why that would make someone a "highly qualified" teacher.

 

National Board Certification doesn't require more than a Bachelor's

 

I am only familiar with the requirements in MA. They became pretty strict about 12 or 15 years ago. All new teachers have to earn a Master's degree or equivalent within five years of original certification (older ones are grandfathered in). And elementary ed students must double major in undergrad studies.

I am by no means trying to defend the quality of the ed programs,or some of the people who come out of them, but at least some states are attempting to add more requirements in the "hope" of increasing standards. I agree that some form of competition needs to be in place in order to really improve quality. Until then, I am very grateful to be in the position tohomeschool.:001_smile:

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I'm sure things have changed quite a bit since I graduated from college in 1991. I know some dedicated and brilliant teachers who do amazing things every day in their classrooms, but I don't think they got their skills from any education department. I think they are natural teachers. My bff had to get her master's to keep her teaching certificate (she teaches high school English and Drama). I asked her if she was getting it in Education, and she said, "If I'm going to spend the time and money to get my Master's, I'm not going to waste it on something stupid like Education. I'm getting my Master's in Theatre." I didn't really know what to say to that. She's a phenomenal teacher, btw. I've seen her in action. I don't know how she does it, but she gets the remedial and ESL students to LOVE Shakespeare and To Kill A Mockingbird.

[TechWife]

When I was in college (back in the dark ages), it was known that education was an easy major. I am not sure that grade inflation is really the problem. I think a good deal of the problem is that the education courses are not difficult courses that focus on pedagogy, child development, etc..

 

While I, as a business major, was running statistical analyses, watching the NYSE and planning marketing programs, all while analyzing what was happening in the banking industry ('88), my roommate was reading picture books & writing reports on them, cutting out shapes and making folder games. I could easily make an A at that! Even the educational theory classes she took were remarkably easy for me - they just seemed an awful lot like common sense.

 

OK, now I'm off to start an s/o on what a rigorous course of study would be for an elementary ed. major. Come play with me!

[Rosie_0801]

If education students are all getting As, then how do hiring personnel decide whom to hire?

 

Over here, it depends very heavily on how well you interview. Don't use the word "challenge" even when interviewing at a private school, because "the parents won't like that." It also depends where you've worked before. If the only job you could get out of uni was in the country, you are almost certain not to get work in town. If you did your teaching rounds only at private schools, you won't get work at a public school, and you won't get work at the private school either because you don't have enough experience.

 

So I have no idea why they will choose someone, (being female, young, blonde and a little bland seems to help) but I know lots of reasons why they won't!

 

Rosie

Edited August 25, 2011 by Rosie_0801