Gender-free...and homeschooling

[Cindyz]

The jist that I got from the article is that their oldest child seemed to naturally be more feminine and it was causing some problems socially. In reaction to this, they decided to raise their youngest child gender neutral. I don't think the oldest child's issues came about because of the way they are raising him.

[justamouse]

Oh fer cryin out loud.

 

This is going to be a disaster. Let your girls play with trucks. Let the boys play with dolls. Let them wear whatever color they like, but this is so much more than that. This is teaching them that what they are is shameful and needs to be hidden.

[angela in ohio]

This is the part that alarmed me as well. I actually find the idea of eliminating social messages about gender directly to the child interesting. The parents did say they would stop once any of the children wanted to. At the same time, children want to please their parents, and the fact that the little boy feels this way tells ME that he isn't purely dressing this way or going along with it because he is actually comfortable with it. I feel really badly for them because of this. I don't find the original plan in and of itself offensive though.

 

Exactly. The parents may be saying that it is his choice, but the fact that this boy si willing to be unhappy and still make the choice shows that there is pressure coming from the parents.

 

Like a pp, I was raised to be "more than some housewife." I didn't have choices... but in the opposite direction. It sounds like that is what is happening here (except that my mother was trying to do her best for me, because she truly had limited options, and I think these parents are just using their poor dc for psychological experimentation and possible future book material.)

 

These people just sound awful. We had a mom of preschoolers :001_huh: show up at a homeschool meeting one time and lecture us all (with school aged dc) about how we needed to raise gender neutral kiddos, and if our dc chose dolls or trucks it was all our fault. The leader gently tried to tell her that she might wait to write that parenting book until her dc were a bit older. :D

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I agree, and in fact, hiding the gender almost seems to be sending a message that the child SHOULD feel some shame or confusion about it.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense for the parents to model a lack of gender identification by their wearing gender neutral clothing and coming up with a name that didn't reflect maternal or paternal traditional labeling? Mop? Pom?

 

Because it seems like they are putting all of this on the little kid instead of leading the way themselves.

[angela in ohio]

The jist that I got from the article is that their oldest child seemed to naturally be more feminine and it was causing some problems socially. In reaction to this, they decided to raise their youngest child gender neutral. I don't think the oldest child's issues came about because of the way they are raising him.

 

It sounded to me like the child had a normal phase, and the parents latched onto it, even though the ds is over it.

[pqr]

Oh, I'm not looking to start a huge fight :). But don't you see, when you say "I suspect that most people will understand what I mean" you're assuming, by your very statement, a set of societal norms for gender roles the contravening of which is the subject of the discussion at hand?

 

".

 

Well,

 

I suppose at a minimum for most people it includes wearing boy's clothes, playing with guns, soldiers, cars, balls, skateboards (or the like). My son would not be getting an American Girl doll and I would not raise him to ask for one.

 

I would deem it extremely harmful to encourage or allow a boy to wear a dress as it would not only violate my standards but also those of the vast majority of our society.

 

As to telling a boy to "act like a man" yes it is a swipe at being weak. You can bet I would not hesitate to use those words if my son were demonstrating "weakness." I am from the "stiff upper lip school" and make no apologies for it.

 

The world is a hard place and we do our children a disservice when we coddle them.

 

-pqr

Edited May 25, 2011 by pqr

[EKS]

The jist that I got from the article is that their oldest child seemed to naturally be more feminine and it was causing some problems socially. In reaction to this, they decided to raise their youngest child gender neutral. I don't think the oldest child's issues came about because of the way they are raising him.

 

This is what I got as well.

[Cindyz]

This is the part that alarmed me as well. I actually find the idea of eliminating social messages about gender directly to the child interesting. The parents did say they would stop once any of the children wanted to. At the same time, children want to please their parents, and the fact that the little boy feels this way tells ME that he isn't purely dressing this way or going along with it because he is actually comfortable with it. I feel really badly for them because of this. I don't find the original plan in and of itself offensive though.

 

 

I disagree. It seemed to me that the child preferred to wear his hair longer and was possibly more feminine and because of this was often mistaken for a girl or maybe told that boys shouldn't look or act certain (more feminine) ways, and this fact bothered him. They are not keeping this child's gender a secret. It's the 4 month old's gender that is being kept secret which appears to be in reaction to the older child's experiences.

 

Would I do something like this? No. However, it does seem that many here seem to think that the child with the secret gender is the oldest boy and it's not.

[justamouse]

Well,

 

I suppose at a minimum for most people it includes wearing boy's clothes, playing with guns, soldiers, cars, balls, skateboards etc. My son would not be getting an American Girl doll and I would not raise him to ask for one.

 

I would deem it extremely harmful to encourage or allow a boy to wear a dress as it would not only violate my standards but also those of the vast majority of our society.

 

As to telling a boy to "act like a man" yes it is a swipe at being weak. You can bet I would not hesitate to use those words if my son were demonstrating "weakness." I am from the "stiff upper lip school" and make no apologies for it.

 

The world is a hard place and we do our children a disservice when we coddle them.

 

-pqr

 

*sigh*

 

Come now, you're not a drill sergeant to a three year old, are you? Your boy takes a tumble, you set him upright and give him a bandaid for his knee, pat him on the head and send him on his way, no?

[Cindyz]

Well,

 

I suppose at a minimum for most people it includes wearing boy's clothes, playing with guns, soldiers, cars, balls, skateboards (or the like). My son would not be getting an American Girl doll and I would not raise him to ask for one.

 

I would deem it extremely harmful to encourage or allow a boy to wear a dress as it would not only violate my standards but also those of the vast majority of our society.

 

As to telling a boy to "act like a man" yes it is a swipe at being weak. You can bet I would not hesitate to use those words if my son were demonstrating "weakness." I am from the "stiff upper lip school" and make no apologies for it.

 

The world is a hard place and we do our children a disservice when we coddle them.

 

-pqr

 

We also do children a disservice when we try to force them into being something that they aren't. There are boys who prefer to play with dolls and like to have their nails painted and are more feminine by nature. You may be able to stifle it as a child just because you're bigger and more powerful at the moment, but eventually it will come out. I would much rather have my child know that I accepted him for who he is rather than how I thought boys should be. It really has nothing to do with coddling them, but more in letting them be who they naturally are...whoever that may be.

[Mimm]

Well,

 

I suppose at a minimum for most people it includes wearing boy's clothes, playing with guns, soldiers, cars, balls, skateboards (or the like). My son would not be getting an American Girl doll and I would not raise him to ask for one.

 

I would deem it extremely harmful to encourage or allow a boy to wear a dress as it would not only violate my standards but also those of the vast majority of our society.

 

As to telling a boy to "act like a man" yes it is a swipe at being weak. You can bet I would not hesitate to use those words if my son were demonstrating "weakness." I am from the "stiff upper lip school" and make no apologies for it.

 

The world is a hard place and we do our children a disservice when we coddle them.

 

-pqr

 

Would you tell a girl to toughen up? The world is a hard place for girls too. (More so than for boys in many places.)

[angela in ohio]

Wouldn't it make more sense for the parents to model a lack of gender identification by their wearing gender neutral clothing and coming up with a name that didn't reflect maternal or paternal traditional labeling? Mop? Pom?

 

Because it seems like they are putting all of this on the little kid instead of leading the way themselves.

 

I too thought when my dc were little that I could make them be something I wasn't willing to be myself. They'll learn. :001_smile:

[Cricket]

I can't get past this quote from the father: "What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It's obnoxious," adds Stocker, a teacher at an alternative school.

 

I couldn't even read that aloud to my dh without laughing. But it is also so tragic. I agree with a pp--these are children--human beings, not a social experiment.

[pqr]

Would you tell a girl to toughen up? The world is a hard place for girls too. (More so than for boys in many places.)

 

Absolutely.

[texasmama]

Suppressing the knowledge of a child's gender doesn't make it a non issue. It draws attention to it and makes it a larger issue than it should be.

 

There are two sets of parts. We all get one or another (with the exception of hermaphrodites, which is not the point of this article). It doesn't have to be limiting to know and to have others know which set you got.

 

It is the epitome of egocentricity to use your child to further your own agenda. If your agenda is causing your five year old mental distress, then a responsible parent makes adjustments.

 

Studies have shown that people do treat even infants differently depending on what gender they believe the child to be. That is the world we live in. However, it is not 1850. Your parts don't necessarily define your role in life or in larger society. Your parents being weirdos shouldn't define it, either. Poor kids.

[Audrey]

Imagine the living hell those children may eventually face once they actually leave the house.

 

 

Did you read the article? I think at least one of the kids is on the verge of entering "living hell" and he's a long way from leaving the house (age-wise, at least).

 

I don't think you have to beat kids over the head with hard-line definitions of their gender roles from day one, but I think doing the opposite - removing any traces of gender identity -- is just as extreme and damaging.

 

I feel sorry for those kids.

[AngelBee]

This is totally not about long hair on boys. It's about parents who seem to have forgotten that the baby is a child, not a social experiment.

:iagree:

[AngelBee]

Did you read the article? I think at least one of the kids is on the verge of entering "living hell" and he's a long way from leaving the house (age-wise, at least).

 

I don't think you have to beat kids over the head with hard-line definitions of their gender roles from day one, but I think doing the opposite - removing any traces of gender identity -- is just as extreme and damaging.

 

I feel sorry for those kids.

:iagree:

[AngelBee]

I think it's better to teach your girls they can be scientists or whatever, than to teach them they must wear overalls and be androgynous in order to be happy.

Totally.

 

This (the parenting in the article) seems counter productive to me.

[laughing lioness]

Would you tell a girl to toughen up? The world is a hard place for girls too. (More so than for boys in many places.)

 

Ayup. And while I think the world is a hard place for girls, I wouldn't say it's more so than for boys- just different challenges. The world is just a hard place.

[kitten18]

I can't get past this quote from the father: "What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It's obnoxious," adds Stocker, a teacher at an alternative school.

 

 

:001_huh::lol:

[Tap]

All I can say is ¨a storm is a'brew´n¨.....

[cathmom]

Totally unrelated to the merits of the discussion at hand, but can you imagine how stilted and awkward conversations they have about the child will be? Say the mother calls her mom up (the child's grandmother): "Hi mom! How are you? Guess what--Storm just rolled over today. First Storm laid on Storm's belly and wiggled like crazy, and then Storm just flipped over! We are so proud of Storm! Storm is getting to be such a big . . . child!"

 

It would be a relief to talk about the other kids just so you could use pronouns!

 

:lol: LOL

 

Seriously, though, I would be so upset as the grandparent to not be told. I think it would seriously undermine the family's relationship with the grandparents!

 

Wouldn't it make more sense for the parents to model a lack of gender identification by their wearing gender neutral clothing and coming up with a name that didn't reflect maternal or paternal traditional labeling? Mop? Pom?

 

Because it seems like they are putting all of this on the little kid instead of leading the way themselves.

 

Very good point!

 

I can't get past this quote from the father: "What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It's obnoxious," adds Stocker, a teacher at an alternative school.

 

 

 

Yes, it is obnoxious that you are making a choice for your child! :lol:

 

I have met a family like this - school age boy wearing pink, skirts, long hair, barrettes, etc. I assumed the child was a girl because every week he was dressed like that. Then I was chatting with the mom and she said, "he." It just seems to me like doing this makes it MORE of an issue than it would be otherwise.

 

This posted by a woman whose boys specifically ask to watch Barbie movies!

[AngelBee]

Totally unrelated to the merits of the discussion at hand, but can you imagine how stilted and awkward conversations they have about the child will be? Say the mother calls her mom up (the child's grandmother): "Hi mom! How are you? Guess what--Storm just rolled over today. First Storm laid on Storm's belly and wiggled like crazy, and then Storm just flipped over! We are so proud of Storm! Storm is getting to be such a big . . . child!"

 

It would be a relief to talk about the other kids just so you could use pronouns!

:lol:

[AngelBee]

Honestly, I think the kids are going to look back on their childhood and wonder why their parents put them through this. I personally think it can be very damaging to them. Not to mention strange too.

 

I am completely on board with things like toys, colors, etc. I've witnessed parents in a store ordering their little boy to "put down that doll...these are the girls toys...let's go to the boys toys." I tell my girls that there are no such things as girl toys and boy toys. There's no such things as girl colors and boy colors. My girls equally play with dinosaurs, trains, and knights just as much as American Girl dolls and princesses.

 

But....they know they are girls and as they grow, I will teach them how to be a woman according to the Bible.

 

I'm not quite sure what this family is trying to accomplish with being "gender free." I mean, you ARE born a certain gender, whether you like it or not. Only one gender can carry and deliver a child. What are they going to tell their boys when they say they want to have a baby in their belly one day? Are they going to tell them that only girls can do that? Because that would be defeating their whole purpose. Females and males are different whether they like it or not. They have different body parts....different things happen during puberty. Their whole scenario just doesn't make much sense to me.

 

I was a little girl who was a HUGE tomboy. I played with Ninja Turtles, jumped ramps with my bike, dressed up as a ninja, played street hockey, never wore dresses, and even one time tried to change my name to Scott. And you know what? My parents didn't freak out. They never pushed me towards girlie things. Yes, I do remember being teased at times....even called degrading names by an adult that lived in our neighborhood. In my mind, I wasn't "trying to be a boy." I was enjoying the things that I loved. My parents let me be who I was, raised me in a Christian home, and you know what? I'm still a tomboy to this day. I'm a mother, I'm a wife, I'm a God-fearing woman....who still does not wear dresses, who has never had a mani or a pedi, and would rather play a Nerf war than spend a day at the spa. I knew I was a girl....there was never any question or doubt. But I didn't use "things" to separate girls from boys. I was a kid who enjoyed ninjas and GI Joes...nothing wrong with that.

And this is how I want my kids to be raised. :)

[Peela]

They mean well but they are in reaction, not a healthy response, to gender stereotyping. They are trying something, but most people can see it isn't going to have the result they intend.

Hopefully no great harm will be done. We have very cute pictures of my son in a pink fairy costume. When he was little he used to love his sisters dressing him up as a girl and putting his long hair up.

We allowed it. He had long hair till around age 10 or 11. No harm done- you would never consider him anything but mannish now, at age 15, though he is also sensitive.

There is a balance between wanting your child to be totally free- which I see they are attempting- and bringing them up to be well adapted to the society they live in. I personally love being female and embrace it completely- and glad I don't have much testosterone in my system. Even little boys have testosterone though.

[AngelBee]

I keep giggling about Mop and Pom :D

[Greta]

I can't get past this quote from the father: "What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It's obnoxious,"

 

I think people who want to have children without actually becoming parents are rather obnoxious.

[trailofsparks]

I understand where they are coming from. Many aspects of gender are socially learned. But I do not agree with it and think that it may ultimately be detrimental to the child.

 

 

:iagree:most definitely. Can you say CONFUSION??? :confused:

[kolamum]

It's interesting that they want their children to be whomever they choose.

 

Boys can have long hair.

Boys can cook.

Boys can sew.

Boys can do crafts.

 

Girls can fix cars.

Girls can climb trees.

Girls and love snakes.

Girls can have short hair.

 

 

There are plenty of children who are homeschooled & plenty who attend school who fit into these rolls. They are still loved for who they are. I'll also admit that my now 10 year old son once had painted blue & red toe nails. Why? Because his same aged cousin was having her's painted and he wanted to "paint" too. ;) Would he do it now? Not in your life! :lol:

 

Makes you wonder if Mamma was a bit of a Tomboy and distressed with questions her 5 year old was asking and took a desperate measure in a strange direction. After all, her 5 year old doesn't like being mistaken for being a girl. If Mamma told him that cutting his hair and wearing pants would keep people from making that mistake do you think he'd change his mind on what he liked? ;)

 

Ps, I bet it's a boy. ;)

[Diana B]

I keep wondering if these parents would be OK if their child chose to wear / behave in the societal norms for the sex. If the boys chose to wear pants and play with cars, are the parents going to be OK with this?

 

With a baby, who isn't choosing the clothing - do you go completely neutral with color/styles? Do you swap blue overalls on Mondays and pink dresses on Tuesdays? What ever choice you make, you are still making a choice for that baby.

 

And the poor 5 yr old. He doesn't even have the guts to tell his own teacher he's a boy. A pp mentioned what do you do when they ask? Can the 5 yr old not correct people and say 'No, I'm a boy. I just like to wear pink.' If the child is so afraid of either society or his parents that he can't speak up and define who he is, then what the parents want to do is backfiring.

[LittleIzumi]

"They say that kids receive messages from society that encourage them to fit into existing boxes, including with regard to gender. "We thought that if we delayed sharing that information, in this case hopefully, we might knock off a couple million of those messages by the time that Storm decides Storm would like to share," says Witterick."

 

So, do they never allow their kids to watch any TV, DVDs, or see any advertising in any form? Those sure as heck provide some clear (unfortunately extremely polarized) gender messages. I get what they're trying to do but wow, what an extreme. Poor kids. It sounds like the oldest wants to be known as a boy now but he's still stuck in gender-neutral land. :001_unsure:

 

--Faith, whose little girls at various points think they are ninjas, have dissected a frog, tried to adopt slugs, been covered head-to-toe in mud, play surgery, and have cut each other's hair quite short... in between the princess dress-ups and baby doll time.

[nmoira]

Just to clarify, my comments have nothing to do with the original article. I don't find the parents' reasoning to be rational or in their children's best interest.

 

There are two sets of parts. We all get one or another (with the exception of hermaphrodites, which is not the point of this article). It doesn't have to be limiting to know and to have others know which set you got.

But sex and gender identity are not the same thing. For most people they line up, yes, but a child can feel considerable anxiety if the "parts" (even in prepubescence) don't match up with the gender they know they are.

[EthiopianFood]

But sex and gender identity are not the same thing. For most people they line up, yes, but a child can feel considerable anxiety if the "parts" (even in prepubescence) don't match up with the gender they know they are.

 

I really hope I don't regret commenting on this. :001_huh: It's just something I've thought about recently, and it's interesting that you brought it up. I just really wonder how much feeling like you were born the wrong sex is a matter of societal messages on what it means to be a certain sex not aligning with how you are as an individual. Maybe in some extreme situations, there can be no way for the person to reconcile these, so they believe they must "really" be a member of the other sex. This isn't my area of expertise, so maybe exhaustive study has been done on this already that I just haven't read. Right now, I fail to see how feeling ANY way doesn't therefore create another legitimate expression of a person of that sex. Relating to the opposite sex more than one's own doesn't at all automatically mean one IS a member of that sex. It could just be that the individual hasn't seen others of their own sex who are like them.

[nmoira]

I really hope I don't regret commenting on this. :001_huh: It's just something I've thought about recently, and it's interesting that you brought it up. I just really wonder how much feeling like you were born the wrong sex is a matter of societal messages on what it means to be a certain sex not aligning with how you are as an individual. Maybe in some extreme situations, there can be no way for the person to reconcile these, so they believe they must "really" be a member of the other sex.

If I didn't know a child who insisted that "she" was boy from the time she was about four (now ten), I'd be inclined to agree with you. This was a child who was not brought up in a household with rigid gender expectations, but neither was it a consciously gender neutral one. A couple of years ago "he" became he, and much of the anxiety seems to be resolved. The child is very lucky to have an exceptional support system at home and school.

 

I knew very little about transgender before meeting this family and still struggle to fully grasp just how it must feel. I've done some research, but nothing exhaustive.

 

FWIW, many kids go through phases in which they insist they are actually the opposite sex, or a cat or a dog, typical kid stuff. The phase passes, though they occasionally last weeks or months. Transgender is something else: it's a profound disconnect between sex and gender identity. Gender identity may be male, female, none, or both (sometimes called fluid)... not necessarily just the "opposite". Researchers don't know what causes it, though there's ever increasing evidence that it's a biological phenomenon, possibly with developmental roots. Until relatively recently it was still treated primarily as a mental disorder (lately dubbed Gender Identity Disorder).

[lmrich]

Frankly, I would give all the kids short haircuts - who really wants to do "hair" for all those kids. My girls and son had short hair as young uns simply to keep it simple.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

:lol: LOL

 

Seriously, though, I would be so upset as the grandparent to not be told. I think it would seriously undermine the family's relationship with the grandparents!

 

 

 

 

I know that every family is different with different levels of connection with the extended family. But my parents and in-laws were changing baby diapers within the first month, so it's not like I could have kept gender under wraps.

 

I think the whole situation is rather sad and that the children are not in for an easy road on many fronts.

[stripe]

Wow, did this topic take off overnight!

 

I think the lack of a gender neutral pronoun is ultimately going to bring down this plan. Because, let's face it, you just can't say, "We need to change Storm's diaper! He or she just pooped! Then we need to wipe his or her chin and change his or her shirt because we're late for his or her doctor's appointment!" (And then there's the need to alternate "his or her" with "her or his," to not subconsciously promote male superiority.)

 

I have to say, I have kids who have at various points expressed dissatisfaction with their ethnic background. I have read articles about this happening to other parents (such as one in Brain, Child by an African American mother whose mixed daughter wants to be white). I wonder if it's okay for, say, a smart dark-skinned black boy to decide to be a Chinese boy because he's good at math and tired of the stereotypes? Is this different from smart black kids being told they are "acting white" by being grammarphiles? This is an interesting topic for the homeschooling parent. But I digress.

 

I just sort of laughed when I got to the fact that they're unschooling their kids. "Of course you are," I sighed to myself. "Of course you are." These are the people who get interviewed about homeschooling. Especially, as noted, when one kid WANTS to go to school and the kids are under 6.

Edited May 25, 2011 by stripe

[Lizzie in Ma]

If you're going to be an iconoclast, then don't get upset if others don't perceive you the way you think you are projecting.

 

I just liked that sentence. :D

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

It sounds like these parents as extreme as the parents who strictly enforce stereotypical gender roles. Their children are going to suffer in the long run b/c of this. It sounds more like it's for the parents instead of the children. I'm all for letting kids be kids....heck my DD has recently informed everyone that when she grows up, she wants to be a "road painter" (pain the lines on roads). Everyone in the family she has told this to has pretty much told her good on her if that's what she wants to do. On the flip side of this, she's very much into pink and princesses. This to me is healthy as she's coming up w/this on her own. We're not forcing her in either direction. It seems like these parents are forcing (even if it's subconciously) their children in this.

 

:iagree: Generally I believe that a gender should be fostered but not in an overaly rigid way. I remember being a tom boy of sorts but I also loved ballet and princesses:D I don't think boys should be taught to not cry and always be tough and strong as well. OTOH, I think most boys and girls will end up with some of the stereotypical differences of gender IMO.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I know that every family is different with different levels of connection with the extended family. But my parents and in-laws were changing baby diapers within the first month, so it's not like I could have kept gender under wraps.

 

I think the whole situation is rather sad and that the children are not in for an easy road on many fronts.

 

:iagree:

[FaithManor]

Well, I have some feelings on the subject that I'm not going to delve into. But, I'd like to know exactly what they do for pronouns. The English Language is pretty specific...there are male and female pronouns or it. It as a pronoun covers animals, houses, plants.......is the child now not a human?

 

Due to the limitations of most languages as pronouns in the West tend to be gender specific, I think they've relegated the child to a very awkward position and a non-human status. It works until the child acquires langauge, and then the problems of negative self-image within cultural norms begins.

 

At some point, I cannot see how gender cannot be assigned unless this child's school will be required to provide a non-gendered restroom and total privacy for bathroom breaks. Sports, well, that is another can of worms.

 

Faith

[Mimm]

Ayup. And while I think the world is a hard place for girls, I wouldn't say it's more so than for boys- just different challenges. The world is just a hard place.

 

I only asked that to point out that telling a boy to "toughen up" isn't raising a boy as a boy if you do the same for girls. For what it's worth, I think the people in the article are crazy and that children should be able to identify with their gender whenever possible (not talking about transgendered kids here- who are a small minority). I have two girls so I can't say how I would raise a boy differently, and while my kids are told they have a world of possibility in front of them and can be anything they want to be, I can't claim that I don't give off subtle cues as to what's acceptable. They wear their hair long, we shop in the girls clothes section and we have a lot of girl toys around here (aside from blocks and legos and nerf guns).

[Carrie12345]

I only asked that to point out that telling a boy to "toughen up" isn't raising a boy as a boy if you do the same for girls. For what it's worth, I think the people in the article are crazy and that children should be able to identify with their gender whenever possible (not talking about transgendered kids here- who are a small minority). I have two girls so I can't say how I would raise a boy differently, and while my kids are told they have a world of possibility in front of them and can be anything they want to be, I can't claim that I don't give off subtle cues as to what's acceptable. They wear their hair long, we shop in the girls clothes section and we have a lot of girl toys around here (aside from blocks and legos and nerf guns).

 

I have 2 girls and 3 boys, and I would like to be able to say that I'm raising them the same, but it would be a lie.

It is our intent to do so (Well, not to the extreme of hiding their gender!), but we make distinctions simply by pointing out that our girls play with "boy" things and our boys play with "girl" things, or by commenting on how tough are girls are or how sweet and gentle our boys can be (once in a blue moon, lol.) THAT's the part I believe these parents are trying to avoid. And that's what makes it an interested concept to me. The concept, not the reality for these innocent kids.

[Paige]

I expect their experiment will be short lived unless they live in a bubble. The child will start playing with other children and realize all of them identify as boys or girls. He or she will then ask mom and dad who he or she is and where she fits. If the child is kept from other small children, he or she will still read books or watch tv, or hear the brothers talking. He or she may ask what his or her genitals are for, and if she is a girl, she'll realize she looks different than her brothers. He or she will figure it out and I doubt the child will be willing to go along with his or her parents' social experiment past age 3 at the most. I think the parents are nuts. I think they are obnoxious and pretentious. I think the experiment, because that's what it is, could hurt the child if it continues into his or her childhood, but I don't think it will do much harm if they allow it to naturally end when the child starts asserting his or her own personality and asking questions.

[historically accurate]

I read it, and I think I understand what they're trying to avoid. All the "Oh, what a pretty little girl you are!" or "You're such a strong little boy!" as the baby lays on someone's lap. I swear that I've read studies that people treat even infants differently depending on gender. Since they seem so set on having everything be the kids' decisions, I believe that once the child can talk, s/he will let others know whether s/he is a boy or a girl if s/he decides so. Whether that will backfire, I don't know.

 

It seems that the oldest is over this now, but the parents aren't letting him let go of it.:confused:

Edited May 25, 2011 by beckyjo

[Dmmetler]

I think that it's becoming a non-issue. Or, at least, it is among the kids I know IRL. Even the girls (like mine) who prefer frilly dresses don't mind playing in the dirt, driving trucks, catching bugs, and so on. And the boys don't seem to mind playing dress-up. The parents also seem very relaxed-when I pull out the scarves in music class, and a little boy puts one over his head and says "I'm a Bride", the response is favorable, not "Boys can't be brides!". And the most popular color is the bright pink-even in my boy-heavy classes (I had 7 boys to 3 girls in my preschool group this Spring).

 

 

 

I admit that my first response was "I think I know them". There is one family in our local circles who is very "in your face" about the views (to the point that their little girls won't even TOUCH a doll and will go into a tirade about how Polly Pocket is ruining women's lives. A little overwhelming from a 4 yr old!) Their kids are the only children I've ever heard say "I don't want to go to school-I'd be teased there" when they've never set foot in a traditional school.

[Jenny in Florida]

I am completely on board with things like toys, colors, etc. I've witnessed parents in a store ordering their little boy to "put down that doll...these are the girls toys...let's go to the boys toys." I tell my girls that there are no such things as girl toys and boy toys. There's no such things as girl colors and boy colors. My girls equally play with dinosaurs, trains, and knights just as much as American Girl dolls and princesses.

 

We do very much the same things. In fact, it used to drive me out of my mind that it was so difficult to find boy dolls. When he was little, my son wanted a boy baby doll, which I couldn't find. (I did consider buying the Bitty Baby twins, just to give him the male one, but ultimately couldn't justify the cost.) So, I ended up making him one for Christmas one year. A few years later, he wanted to be able to play with his big sister and her American Girl dolls, but he wanted a boy. I finally found one of the Target My Generation dolls that was a boy, and he loved and played with Jack for years and years.

 

He also had longish hair for a few years, but decided to cut it when he was five.

 

And, just to upset strict gender roles that much more dramatically, he took ballet classes for six years and performed (in tights!) in a number of productions.

 

Doesn't seem to have done him any harm.

 

Your comments above remind me of a story, though. I used to work at Disney World (Disney-MGM Studios) in merchandise. I worked the princess store quite a lot, the one where we sold all of the costumes and dolls and light-up wands and crowns and so on. One day, a little boy (maybe seven or eight) came into the store with his father. The boy desperately wanted a couple of the princess dolls. The dad was calmly discussing with the boy which ones he wanted and trying gently to direct the kid elsewhere. (I do really mean gently, by the way. It was clear the dad was a little uncomfortable, but he was really doing his best.) People were staring and pointing at the kid and whispering. It was awful.

 

Finally, the agreed that the boy could have one of the sets that had Beauty and the Beast dolls. I think the dad felt better that he was buying a doll that represented a male, and the boy was so thrilled. I remember really wanting to say something supportive to the father, but not wanting to make a big deal about it.

 

That's a pretty lucky kid.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Jenny in Florida

[Halcyon]

Well,

 

I suppose at a minimum for most people it includes wearing boy's clothes, playing with guns, soldiers, cars, balls, skateboards (or the like). My son would not be getting an American Girl doll and I would not raise him to ask for one.

 

I would deem it extremely harmful to encourage or allow a boy to wear a dress as it would not only violate my standards but also those of the vast majority of our society.

 

As to telling a boy to "act like a man" yes it is a swipe at being weak. You can bet I would not hesitate to use those words if my son were demonstrating "weakness." I am from the "stiff upper lip school" and make no apologies for it.

 

The world is a hard place and we do our children a disservice when we coddle them.

 

-pqr

 

Wow. I don't really know what to say to this. Let's hope, for your sake, your son doesn't turn out to be gay. What would you do then? And really? "extremely harmful" for a boy to wear a dress? Sigh.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Halcyon

[Impish]

Oh fer cryin out loud.

 

This is going to be a disaster. Let your girls play with trucks. Let the boys play with dolls. Let them wear whatever color they like, but this is so much more than that. This is teaching them that what they are is shameful and needs to be hidden.

:iagree:

I think people who want to have children without actually becoming parents are rather obnoxious.

:iagree::lol:

My sons have/played with dolls. My dds love tonka trucks.

 

They also love playing with 'gender appropriate toys' as well...boys and cars, girls and dolls. As long as they aren't beating each other up with said toy, I'm good.

 

Took Wolf a while to adjust though. He still gets a bit twitchy if Tazzie's toenails are painted, but he's let go of that too.

 

To ignore/deny gender roles, is, to me, to deny a part of self. Regardless of how that presents, its a part of who you are, and to attempt to ignore it is not only impossible, but rather ridiculous.