Gender-free...and homeschooling

[mom31257]

:lol: Sorry, but this is ripe with irony.

 

Yes it is, but I'm not referring to us discussing one individual family, but the psychologists and others who try to change a whole society.

 

This is why I normally stay out of these conversations. When will I ever learn? ;) I can never really say what I'm thinking in the right manner. You can see why I'm nervous about getting my dd through writing in high school!

[MelanieM]

Yes it is, but I'm not referring to us discussing one individual family, but the psychologists and others who try to change a whole society.

 

This is why I normally stay out of these conversations. When will I ever learn? ;) I can never really say what I'm thinking in the right manner. You can see why I'm nervous about getting my dd through writing in high school!

 

Amy, I'm sorry if I seemed to be criticizing you there as that wasn't my intent. It was just such an honest statement that summed up human nature, and it really did make me giggle when I read it. :D

[Joanne]

Read the first page.

 

Just posted about this on my Facebook. I am becoming old, cantankerous and (gasp) mainstream because the theories represented in this article annoy me.

 

Being different for the sake of being different is just being another sheeple.

[Halcyon]

but they certainly are not the type of boy who I grew up with.

 

And the boys who you grew up with are the men leading our country today (hi Arnie! hi Dominique Strauss-Kahn!). Given the state of "manhood" today, I can say I'm glad that the boys today are being raised differently than the boys of yesteryear. More sensitivity and less macho bull**** wouldn't hurt.

 

And FYI, my husband has zero problem with his boys wearing dresses, nail polish or pink.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Halcyon

[pqr]

I guess at this point we can agree to disagree. To call another child a "wimp" because he's upset? I don't understand name-calling, particularly towards children.

 

And re a boy wearing a dress? My husband doesn't care one way or another, as long as his boys are happy and not hurting anyone.

 

The boy was a wimp. It may be name calling or as I see it as a simple fact.

 

You honestly would not care if your son was in a sun dress?

[Halcyon]

I guess what I don't get is what overreacting to a scraped knee has to do with gender?

 

 

Because clearly boys aren't supposed to cry and whine, didn't you know? They're supposed to be tough! :glare:

Edited May 26, 2011 by Halcyon

[Joanne]

Wishing the media wouldn't have put this one out there..... and just let them all live gender-free without being in the spotlight.

 

They didn't have to answer, participate or engage. Clearly, they seek to challenge and change culture. Using their kids as the weapons.

[pqr]

And the boys who you grew up with are the men leading our country today (hi Arnie! hi Dominique Strauss-Kahn!). Given the state of "manhood" today, I can say I'm glad that the boys today are being raised differently than the boys of yesteryear.

 

And FYI, my husband has zero problem with his boys wearing dresses, nail polish or pink.

 

 

You see you miss the point completely.

 

The boys I grew up with would NEVER have hit or touched a girl. Gentlemen simply did not do such a thing, today that seems different.

 

The state of manhood as you reference it today has nothing to do with the manner in which the vast majority of men were raised. Using your "argument" then boys today are to be tarred with the brush of gang bangers rapists punks is that your argument? You might actually find a few takers for that assessment.

[Halcyon]

The boy was a wimp. It may be name calling or as I see it as a simple fact.

 

On this, we can agree to disagree. Perhaps the boy was recovering from an illness and was feeling sensitive. Perhaps there's a new sibling in the family leaving him feeling vulnerable. Perhaps he's going through a growth spurt, or not sleeping well. You don't know the back story, so I think to say he's being a "wimp" because he cried longer than you deem appropriate is a bit much.

 

 

You honestly would not care if your son was in a sun dress?

 

 

LOL, no. Not at all.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Halcyon

[Halcyon]

You see you miss the point completely.

 

The boys I grew up with would NEVER have hit or touched a girl. Gentlemen simply did not do such a thing, today that seems different.

 

The state of manhood as you reference it today has nothing to do with the manner in which the vast majority of men were raised. Using your "argument" then boys today are to be tarred with the brush of gang bangers rapists punks is that your argument? You might actually find a few takers for that assessment.

 

 

I think we'll need to agree to disagree on this one. Nuff said.

[nmoira]

Gentlemen simply did not do such a thing, today that seems different.

Really? I would suggest that the major difference is that the household staff is less likely to be cowed in to silence (at least without a substantial payoff) whereas before they were in a position to be left destitute. There have always been cads: it's a potential side-effect of privilege every bit as much as lack thereof. If something, generally speaking of course, has changed character-wise between then and now, it's a tendency towards lack of discretion.

 

ETA: Not every man is a cad... not "then" and not now. I just want to make sure there's no misunderstanding there.

[Halcyon]

Really? I would suggest that the major difference is that the household staff is less likely to be cowed in to silence (at least without a substantial payoff) whereas before they were in a position to be left destitute. There have always been cads: it's a potential side-effect of privilege every bit as much as lack thereof. If something, generally speaking of course, has changed character-wise between then and now, it's a tendency towards lack of discretion.

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree.

[Mommy22alyns]

 

I watched a boy at a soccer game the about a month ago scrape his knee, flop around, cry, whine, tears flowing etc. 10 minutes later he was fine. There was no damage, no broken bones nothing sprained. He was simply a wimp and the cooing from his mother did him no good.

 

Of course when the boys on the team told him to stop being such a "girl" he actually quieted down.

 

Other than being absolutely mortified if a boy of mine behaved like this…..you can bet I would tell him to grow up an act like a man.

 

 

 

:001_huh: Having girls, this really p*sses me off. Is that kind of behavior acceptable from girls? Why do boys/men get to insult each other by calling them "girls"? Does it fly the other way?

 

My girls had their last soccer game last Saturday. My oldest took a hard ball to the forehead and didn't shed a tear. Does that make her a "boy"?

 

PQR, my quibble is not with you. But it just raises my hackles to see "girl" used as an insult.

[kokotg]

Because clearly boys aren't supposed to cry and whine, didn't you know? They supposed to be tough! :glare:

 

Right, and I guess if a girl scrapes her knee, she's supposed to cry for an hour and then go lie down for the rest of the day. Which seems a little backwards to me, actually, given that it's the girls who are likely to grow up and go through childbirth...

[Carpe]

We did not tell people what our 16 month old is until after he'd turned one. (To be honest I'm not even sure my DH knew.) I'd rather not discuss the reasons because they were private, but even if those reasons do not repeat in future children we will likely not disclose the sex of them as infants either.

 

There is a huge difference in the way people treat "a baby boy" (our first) versus "a baby." But there was a significant backlash.

 

The most hostility was from strangers and significantly less so from my incredibly sexist in-laws (though enough to be obnoxious). The cure is to ask them why they're so interested in my child's genitals. It also works to end circumcision debates.

 

We probably would have held out longer except my darling little boy stuck his hands in his pants and said "penis" about as loud as he could while over at my MIL's house. I think within 10 minutes everyone she knows had heard.

[Joanne]

:001_huh: Having girls, this really p*sses me off. Is that kind of behavior acceptable from girls? Why do boys/men get to insult each other by calling them "girls"? Does it fly the other way?

 

My girls had their last soccer game last Saturday. My oldest took a hard ball to the forehead and didn't shed a tear. Does that make her a "boy"?

 

PQR, my quibble is not with you. But it just raises my hackles to see "girl" used as an insult.

 

Thank you. My own dd walks, moves, and lives in pain daily.

 

I wouldn't mind a "suck it up and get back in the game" or "stop the drama, you are ok". But to stereotype girls and imply being like the arbitrary stereotype? To think that is an acceptable thing on any level?

[pqr]

:001_huh: Having girls, this really p*sses me off. Is that kind of behavior acceptable from girls? Why do boys/men get to insult each other by calling them "girls"? Does it fly the other way?

 

My girls had their last soccer game last Saturday. My oldest took a hard ball to the forehead and didn't shed a tear. Does that make her a "boy"?

 

PQR, my quibble is not with you. But it just raises my hackles to see "girl" used as an insult.

 

I agree, it would have been far more appropriate for the child to be told not to be a wimp or a sissy.

 

Some of the most courageous people I have ever known have been females and some of the weakest have been "males."

[Halcyon]

I agree, it would have been far more appropriate for the child to be told not to be a wimp or a sissy.

 

 

 

 

LOL. Far more appropriate. ;)

[sewingmama]

I watched a boy at a soccer game the about a month ago scrape his knee, flop around, cry, whine, tears flowing etc. 10 minutes later he was fine. There was no damage, no broken bones nothing sprained. He was simply a wimp and the cooing from his mother did him no good.

 

Of course when the boys on the team told him to stop being such a "girl" he actually quieted down.

 

Other than being absolutely mortified if a boy of mine behaved like this…..you can bet I would tell him to grow up an act like a man.

 

We seem to be creating a generation of …… well I don’t know…… but they certainly are not the type of boy who I grew up with. To answer your question, yes, I will do all in my power to ensure that mine grow up more like the boys I knew when I was young than some of what I see today.

 

 

 

My DH was raised like this - strict gender lines about what is appropriate for girls and boys. It has caused tremendous problems in our marriage. He refuses to do anything deemed as "women's work" - which means even if I am dying sick in bed I still have to get up and change diapers and make meals and clean up because he won't touch it with a ten foot pole. To him it is "unmanly" to do the dishes for your vomiting wife or make your kids a sandwich so your wife can go to a doctor appointment. He won't take his kids to playgroup because it's "womens business" despite the fact that there are always other Dad's there with their kids. My DH is not macho - he doesn't hit girl's or like sport etc etc - but for him the gender lines are clearly drawn and he won't overstep them.

 

In contrast my brother was raised by a single mom who allowed him to play with dolls and take dance lessons. He is now a full time single parent to a daughter who he takes care of all alone. He takes her to dance class, dresses in tutu's to play with her and has tea parties with her and her friends as well as doing the cooking, cleaning etc - none of which my DH would ever, ever do. If I was to die my poor kids would be living in a world of neglect because my DH has no clue (or desire) how to care for them appropriately.

 

Strict gender stereotypes don't make for good marriages.

[pqr]

LOL. Far more appropriate. ;)

 

 

Yes, and more accurate. Far more accurate.

[Halcyon]

My DH was raised like this - strict gender lines about what is appropriate for girls and boys. It has caused tremendous problems in our marriage. He refuses to do anything deemed as "women's work" - which means even if I am dying sick in bed I still have to get up and change diapers and make meals and clean up because he won't touch it with a ten foot pole. To him it is "unmanly" to do the dishes for your vomiting wife or make your kids a sandwich so your wife can go to a doctor appointment. He won't take his kids to playgroup because it's "womens business" despite the fact that there are always other Dad's there with their kids. My DH is not macho - he doesn't hit girl's or like sport etc etc - but for him the gender lines are clearly drawn and he won't overstep them.

 

In contrast my brother was raised by a single mom who allowed him to play with dolls and take dance lessons. He is now a full time single parent to a daughter who he takes care of all alone. He takes her to dance class, dresses in tutu's to play with her and has tea parties with her and her friends as well as doing the cooking, cleaning etc - none of which my DH would ever, ever do. If I was to die my poor kids would be living in a world of neglect because my DH has no clue (or desire) how to care for them appropriately.

 

Strict gender stereotypes don't make for good marriages.

 

 

Your brother sounds like a great father. Hats off.

[MSNative]

Your brother sounds like a great father. Hats off.

 

I think it has more to do with raising gentlemen and ladies than boys and girls. Men who will only do "manly" things have not been raised right. (Men who assault women or anyone else are criminals.)

My father was raised with very strict gender roles, served in the military and is about as manly as you could want. However, he does not fight, curse, tell crude jokes or pal around with those who do. He builds water features for my mom, fixes whatever needs to be fixed in the house, does the laundry, weeds the garden, cooks dinner and does pretty much whatever needs to be done. My mother was raised with very strict gender rules. She was raised to work hard, to behave like a lady (no cursing or crude jokes, dress appropriately, etc.) She now teaches technology, coaches robotics, programs, build fences, builds stone walls, etc. She also does housework and likes to look pretty. Basically, they both work hard and do what has to get done.

 

I have three boys. I am working hard to raise them to be gentlemen - hard workers, caring, loving, faithful, persistent, honorable and courteous. They are sensitive and thoughtful (heck one even writes some rockin' poetry)- but do not wear dresses or paint their nails. I don't think you have to make your boy dress like a girl to make him sensitive. I don't need to dress a girl up like a boy to make her strong. I can instill those values in each of them and still stay true to gender norms.

 

As far as the whining - ugh, I hate whining from anyone of any gender - or age for that matter. I don't tell my sons to man up, but I do tell them that they are not behaving properly and need to straighten up. When I watch my friend's girls I tell them the same thing. Whining doesn't get you anywhere. Yikes, didn't mean to get that riled up. I really can't stand whining. :)

[Plucky]

My DH was raised like this - strict gender lines about what is appropriate for girls and boys. It has caused tremendous problems in our marriage. He refuses to do anything deemed as "women's work" - which means even if I am dying sick in bed I still have to get up and change diapers and make meals and clean up because he won't touch it with a ten foot pole. To him it is "unmanly" to do the dishes for your vomiting wife or make your kids a sandwich so your wife can go to a doctor appointment. He won't take his kids to playgroup because it's "womens business" despite the fact that there are always other Dad's there with their kids. My DH is not macho - he doesn't hit girl's or like sport etc etc - but for him the gender lines are clearly drawn and he won't overstep them.

 

In contrast my brother was raised by a single mom who allowed him to play with dolls and take dance lessons. He is now a full time single parent to a daughter who he takes care of all alone. He takes her to dance class, dresses in tutu's to play with her and has tea parties with her and her friends as well as doing the cooking, cleaning etc - none of which my DH would ever, ever do. If I was to die my poor kids would be living in a world of neglect because my DH has no clue (or desire) how to care for them appropriately.

 

Strict gender stereotypes don't make for good marriages.

 

I don't think your dh's attitude stems from strong gender stereotypes. My dh was also raised with very strong gender stereotypes. He changes diapers, cooks, cleans, is very involved with our kids, takes over when I'm sick, and also delivered one of our kids unexpectedly and much more. Caring for his wife and family are what makes a strong man manly. :001_smile:

[historically accurate]

:001_huh: Having girls, this really p*sses me off. Is that kind of behavior acceptable from girls? Why do boys/men get to insult each other by calling them "girls"? Does it fly the other way?

 

My girls had their last soccer game last Saturday. My oldest took a hard ball to the forehead and didn't shed a tear. Does that make her a "boy"?

 

PQR, my quibble is not with you. But it just raises my hackles to see "girl" used as an insult.

 

 

As the mom of 3 girls, I wholeheartedly agree!

[KristinaBreece]

I think it has more to do with raising gentlemen and ladies than boys and girls. Men who will only do "manly" things have not been raised right. (Men who assault women or anyone else are criminals.)

 

:iagree:

 

My father was raised with very strict gender roles, served in the military and is about as manly as you could want. However, he does not fight, curse, tell crude jokes or pal around with those who do. He builds water features for my mom, fixes whatever needs to be fixed in the house, does the laundry, weeds the garden, cooks dinner and does pretty much whatever needs to be done. My mother was raised with very strict gender rules. She was raised to work hard, to behave like a lady (no cursing or crude jokes, dress appropriately, etc.) She now teaches technology, coaches robotics, programs, build fences, builds stone walls, etc. She also does housework and likes to look pretty. Basically, they both work hard and do what has to get done.

 

Which should be the goal of every parent for their child(ren), IMO.

 

I have three boys. I am working hard to raise them to be gentlemen - hard workers, caring, loving, faithful, persistent, honorable and courteous. They are sensitive and thoughtful (heck one even writes some rockin' poetry)- but do not wear dresses or paint their nails. I don't think you have to make your boy dress like a girl to make him sensitive. I don't need to dress a girl up like a boy to make her strong. I can instill those values in each of them and still stay true to gender norms.

 

I don't have an issue with gender norms-- I buy girl clothes for my girl & boy clothes for my boy. Both of them will learn to cook, clean, balance a checkbook, and change the oil in a car. They share toys-- DS has a doll, and DD likes to play super heroes, and vice versa. But I don't make DS take off the princess dress if they're playing dress up & he opts to put it on. Neither do I make DD take off the firefighter's uniform or the knight's shield.

 

As far as the whining - ugh, I hate whining from anyone of any gender - or age for that matter. I don't tell my sons to man up, but I do tell them that they are not behaving properly and need to straighten up. When I watch my friend's girls I tell them the same thing. Whining doesn't get you anywhere. Yikes, didn't mean to get that riled up. I really can't stand whining. :)

 

:iagree:

Whining is the thing I hate the most. And DS tends to the whiny side. This can make for long days, because I have to constantly help him find constructive ways to convey irritation and frustration.

[zaichiki]

And the poor 5 yr old. He doesn't even have the guts to tell his own teacher he's a boy. A pp mentioned what do you do when they ask? Can the 5 yr old not correct people and say 'No, I'm a boy. I just like to wear pink.' If the child is so afraid of either society or his parents that he can't speak up and define who he is, then what the parents want to do is backfiring.

 

I don't know if the boy is afraid of society or his parents -- he's 5. My current 5 y.o. is a bit shy and would ask me to talk to adults *for* him. My dd, at 5, WOULD have spoken up for herself. Kids' personalities are just different.

[DarlaS]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110524/ts_yblog_thelookout/parents-keep-childs-gender-under-wraps

 

I have observed a fair number of homeschoolers on their blogs and on this forum mention their boys who have long hair and/or wear dresses. Is it really a growing phenomenon?

 

I must not be paying much attention to have missed THAT! :blink:

 

Or are you talking about little kids playing with their sister's dress up clothes?

Edited May 26, 2011 by darlasowders

[pqr]

I don't think your dh's attitude stems from strong gender stereotypes. My dh was also raised with very strong gender stereotypes. He changes diapers, cooks, cleans, is very involved with our kids, takes over when I'm sick, and also delivered one of our kids unexpectedly and much more. Caring for his wife and family are what makes a strong man manly. :001_smile:

 

Very well put.

[zaichiki]

I will admit (and somewhat to my dismay) that I did not allow my oldest to buy a dress. He asked for one in the store when he was younger because he thought it was so pretty. I just couldn't go that far with it.

 

I also told my ds he couldn't have the nightgown he thought he wanted. (My dh isn't the type that would be okay with that.) However, I explained it this way:

In American culture right now, boys don't wear dresses. When my grandfather was a boy, a long time ago, *little* boys *did* wear dresses. In some other countries, *right now*, boys *do* wear dresses and skirts. (Then we went to the National Geographic magazines and found some pictures of Scottish men in kilts, African and Arabian men wearing robes, etc. I also showed him the picture of my grandfather, at 2, in a dress.)

 

I think it's important to let kids know what our culture values. *They* don't have to value it, but it's important, like this pp said, not to blindside them.

 

(If my dh would have allowed it, I would have purchased the nightgown for ds to wear at home at night. I would not have purchased a dress, however, even if my dh was the type that would be okay with that.)

 

My boys have both painted their nails and played dress up with their sister's dresses, my dresses, and ladies' high heels. My oldest was very fond of blue nail polish until he was made fun of twice in one month. He was 6. It was hard for him. He was ostracized by a cousin and teased by a playmate. Now he is really upset that I allow his 5 year old brother to have painted nails. He keeps telling me (and his brother) that boys aren't supposed to paint their nails and "some people will make fun of you." To the little brother's credit, he is strong and brave and isn't caving to his older brother's pressure: he's still wearing the nail polish. I'm cherishing it for now b/c I suspect he'll be more interested in conforming to society's views in the near future.

[zaichiki]

I'm sure my family is not the only one with such exceptions to 'gender stereotyping' during a time long before the concept was identified.

 

Real people are far more intelligent, flexible and adaptable than the lobby for 'political correctness' would have us believe.

 

:iagree: One of my grandfathers was very stereotypically masculine. He would go out on the deck with a cigar to listen to the ballgame on the radio every evening after dinner. But he's also the one that cooked the dinner. Every night.

[lmkzbcb]

Suppressing the knowledge of a child's gender doesn't make it a non issue. It draws attention to it and makes it a larger issue than it should be.

 

There are two sets of parts. We all get one or another (with the exception of hermaphrodites, which is not the point of this article). It doesn't have to be limiting to know and to have others know which set you got.

 

It is the epitome of egocentricity to use your child to further your own agenda. If your agenda is causing your five year old mental distress, then a responsible parent makes adjustments.

 

Studies have shown that people do treat even infants differently depending on what gender they believe the child to be. That is the world we live in. However, it is not 1850. Your parts don't necessarily define your role in life or in larger society. Your parents being weirdos shouldn't define it, either. Poor kids.

 

:iagree:

[stripe]

I must not be paying much attention to have missed THAT! :blink:

 

Or are you talking about little kids playing with their sister's dress up clothes?

No, I'm not talking about dress up. I have just sort of noticed it, especially in threads about how great homeschooling is because kids can be individuals.

 

I think it IS really complicated to negotiate gender roles. However, I think suggesting, for example, that feminine activities are weak and pathetic and/or that masculine activities are brutish and stupid, sets both sexes up for confusion. And actually heavily reinforces gender stereotypes. Being female is not the same as being unsuited for deep thought, and men really can do other things than spread their seed and hunt.

 

Additionally, I've seen quite a few things lately (for example, on NPR's Talk of the Nation in Feb.) about declines in male achievement, and large swathes of the young male population sitting around their mothers' houses playing video games, uninterested in a career or a wife/family. I am sure pqr would be interested! :)

[Cassy]

My DH was raised like this - strict gender lines about what is appropriate for girls and boys. It has caused tremendous problems in our marriage. He refuses to do anything deemed as "women's work" - which means even if I am dying sick in bed I still have to get up and change diapers and make meals and clean up because he won't touch it with a ten foot pole. To him it is "unmanly" to do the dishes for your vomiting wife or make your kids a sandwich so your wife can go to a doctor appointment. He won't take his kids to playgroup because it's "womens business" despite the fact that there are always other Dad's there with their kids. My DH is not macho - he doesn't hit girl's or like sport etc etc - but for him the gender lines are clearly drawn and he won't overstep them.

 

In cases like this I think 'gender stereotyping' can cover a host of other sins. Your DH sounds very much like my FIL. MIL attributes his behaviour to the fact that 'women's work' is outside his comfort zone, it's something he almost fears (and of course, she's very happy to run around after him). His sons, on the other hand, are fairly convinced that he's just plain bone idle.

[fairfarmhand]

My DH was raised like this - strict gender lines about what is appropriate for girls and boys. It has caused tremendous problems in our marriage. He refuses to do anything deemed as "women's work" - which means even if I am dying sick in bed I still have to get up and change diapers and make meals and clean up because he won't touch it with a ten foot pole. To him it is "unmanly" to do the dishes for your vomiting wife or make your kids a sandwich so your wife can go to a doctor appointment. He won't take his kids to playgroup because it's "womens business" despite the fact that there are always other Dad's there with their kids. My DH is not macho - he doesn't hit girl's or like sport etc etc - but for him the gender lines are clearly drawn and he won't overstep them.

 

In contrast my brother was raised by a single mom who allowed him to play with dolls and take dance lessons. He is now a full time single parent to a daughter who he takes care of all alone. He takes her to dance class, dresses in tutu's to play with her and has tea parties with her and her friends as well as doing the cooking, cleaning etc - none of which my DH would ever, ever do. If I was to die my poor kids would be living in a world of neglect because my DH has no clue (or desire) how to care for them appropriately.

 

Strict gender stereotypes don't make for good marriages.

 

 

my dh was raised with gender stereotypes. He was raised with 2 brothers, no sisters. He never played house or dolls. Growing up, he preferred cutting the grass to helping his mom with the housework. He thinks dance is silly. He got in a few fights as a teen boy. He is a manly man...a farmer....plays ball and much prefers his "manly" work to other more domestic pursuits. His favorite fragrance is bacon. He drives a diesel truck (at least till diesel went up to $4 a galllon) and wrestles calves for fun.

 

but he will change a diaper. He will cook and clean if he needs to. He can cook better breakfasts than me. He will cut my hair and fix our girl's hair. He is a better landscape painter than me. :glare:(he volunteered to join me for an art class I'd wanted to take forever and I found that out) He is gentle and kind to me and all of our kids and a source of strength when we need it as well. But he has a brain as well. He won a full scholarship to engineering school and works as a civil engineer.

 

 

A Manly man can step outside of his defined roles if needed. Just like I can cut grass, check the oil in my car, and run a tiller and still be a lady!

 

I think a more accurate statement would be "people who are too fearful/lazy to step out of their own preconceived roles are not good partners. " This goes for men and women.

[Cindyz]

We did not tell people what our 16 month old is until after he'd turned one. (To be honest I'm not even sure my DH knew.) I'd rather not discuss the reasons because they were private, but even if those reasons do not repeat in future children we will likely not disclose the sex of them as infants either.

 

There is a huge difference in the way people treat "a baby boy" (our first) versus "a baby." But there was a significant backlash.

 

The most hostility was from strangers and significantly less so from my incredibly sexist in-laws (though enough to be obnoxious). The cure is to ask them why they're so interested in my child's genitals. It also works to end circumcision debates.

 

We probably would have held out longer except my darling little boy stuck his hands in his pants and said "penis" about as loud as he could while over at my MIL's house. I think within 10 minutes everyone she knows had heard.

 

Interesting. Do you feel that it made your child's life better or happier? It sounds like there were some obvious negative effects (relationship with your in-laws, etc). Do you think it made a difference or impact on your child's life?

 

On another note, your husband didn't help change diapers? :confused:

[cathmom]

Circumcision debates? I've got 5 boys and I don't think anyone has ever asked me about that. :confused:

[DarlaS]

Circumcision debates? I've got 5 boys and I don't think anyone has ever asked me about that. :confused:

 

 

Only my mom seems to have an opinion on that (and everything else). She has even stopped bringing it up.

[AnthemLights]

my dh was raised with gender stereotypes. He was raised with 2 brothers, no sisters. He never played house or dolls. Growing up, he preferred cutting the grass to helping his mom with the housework. He thinks dance is silly. He got in a few fights as a teen boy. He is a manly man...a farmer....plays ball and much prefers his "manly" work to other more domestic pursuits. His favorite fragrance is bacon. He drives a diesel truck (at least till diesel went up to $4 a galllon) and wrestles calves for fun.

 

but he will change a diaper. He will cook and clean if he needs to. He can cook better breakfasts than me. He will cut my hair and fix our girl's hair. He is a better landscape painter than me. :glare:(he volunteered to join me for an art class I'd wanted to take forever and I found that out) He is gentle and kind to me and all of our kids and a source of strength when we need it as well. But he has a brain as well. He won a full scholarship to engineering school and works as a civil engineer.

 

 

A Manly man can step outside of his defined roles if needed. Just like I can cut grass, check the oil in my car, and run a tiller and still be a lady!

 

I think a more accurate statement would be "people who are too fearful/lazy to step out of their own preconceived roles are not good partners. " This goes for men and women.

 

:iagree: My husband is about as "manly" as you can get...(hunting, driving a souped up diesel, works in construction, loves guns and even bought me one for a recent birthday, etc.)........but he is also the best daddy and hubby in the world. I usually do the "woman work" in the house, but if he sees that I am sick, tired, or just plain stressed he is quick to step it. That's part of what being a real "man" is all about.

[lionfamily1999]

I thought being a good father was manly?

 

My dad is quiet, he's a manly man (and short, so he tries harder :lol:). He was tougher on us than Mom in some regards (no crying!), but it always felt like he loved us more.

 

He says that just because he doesn't run around wringing his hands and squeeling doesn't mean he doesn't feel. It means he feels too much to express.

[StaceyinLA]

Really, why? Why in the world does every. single. thing. have to be psychoanalyzed? Seriously. You were born with the genitalia God gave you. You are either male or female (99% of the time). The sexes ARE different and unique (probably for a reason like marriage, procreation, etc.)

 

My girls dressed my son up, painted his nails, etc. But not telling him he's a boy? Sorry. Just too freaking strange.

[Jenny in Florida]

And the boys who you grew up with are the men leading our country today (hi Arnie! hi Dominique Strauss-Kahn!). Given the state of "manhood" today, I can say I'm glad that the boys today are being raised differently than the boys of yesteryear. More sensitivity and less macho bull**** wouldn't hurt.

 

And FYI, my husband has zero problem with his boys wearing dresses, nail polish or pink.

 

I don't do smilies, but I agree wholeheartedly.

 

Heck, my husband is the proud father of a ballet dancing boy who used to love glitter and sequins on his costumes.

[KatDilan]

What happens if Jazz hits teenage rebellion and decides he's a conservative Christian with an interest in guns and possibly joining the Marine corps? Hmm, I wonder if those parents will be "Jazzed" by his independent choices then?:lol:

 

Further, being oneself requires overcoming social barriers and learning to be yourself and stand up for what you believe in IN SPITE OF EXISTING SOCIAL PRESSURES! Changing how they raise their children will not change the world their children will face when they become adults, so if they are looking to raise little revolutionaries, they are on the wrong track. Even if those kids share their parents beliefs, they must be prepared to face and defend themselves in a world that doesn't. Otherwise they become nothing more than a utopian dream with no practicals means.

[ereks mom]

I don't think you have to beat kids over the head with hard-line definitions of their gender roles from day one, but I think doing the opposite - removing any traces of gender identity -- is just as extreme and damaging.

 

I feel sorry for those kids.

 

:iagree:

[Carpe]

Interesting. Do you feel that it made your child's life better or happier? It sounds like there were some obvious negative effects (relationship with your in-laws, etc). Do you think it made a difference or impact on your child's life?

 

On another note, your husband didn't help change diapers? :confused:

 

I'll start at the end first. My husband is squeemish of pretty much all bodily fluids. He passes out when they take his blood, he only poops before he takes a shower so he doesn't have to wipe just in case he gets his hand dirty. It's quite ridiculous. But I'd rather do all the diaper changes than to have him throw up every time. We negotiated a deal so he did his fair share of work.

 

As for it affecting my son's life. He was given freedom to be a baby that I don't think people gave my older son. No one said anything disparaging about him crying and generally being miserable after having his vaccinations, or if he hurt himself, or if he wanted to cuddle.

 

He's noticably less feminine than my older son, but no one ever hinted that it would be wrong for him to do anything because they didn't have a gender based prejudice for him. My older son on the other hand was frequently told to stop being a wuss when he would fall when he first learned to walk. Among other things. My MIL yelled at my husband for three hours straight because I made a newborn-sized cloth doll for our son while I was pregnant with #2.

 

Not telling them until my son told them himself was great for my son. He knew what he was insomuch as any one year old knows. But he was not limited to be what other people thought that meant.

 

Both my boys love the colour pink because it's white and red at the same time ;)

 

And am I the only one who had to endure circumcision debates?

[Haiku]

I tell my girls that there are no such things as girl toys and boy toys.

 

Let me preface my comments with the statement that I don't have any gender identity issues. I know that I am a woman, and I am fine with that. I'm a mom and a wife and a daughter and that's totally cool.

 

However, I was raised by a dad who wanted boys. When my sister and I were born, my parents had to scramble for names because they'd assumed we'd be boys (my mom wanted girls but my dad insisted we'd be boys). My dad loved us very much and I think he raised us well. But somewhere along the line I got the idea that being a girl was not all that great. I don't know whether the idea came from my dad or from society. Professional sports are men's sports; college professors tend to be men; my pediatricians were men, the nurses were women; my dentist was a man, the hygienest was a woman; the boys' sports at school got more attention/attendance. I was never a girly girl; I was very tomboyish and my dad seemed proud of this. (Btw, he always told me that girls were smarter than boys.) I always wore gender-neutral clothing and nondescript hairstyles. Femininity was something I looked on with some derision.

 

It was important to me to raise my kids to be relatively free of gender stereotypes. We have always done the "there are no such things as girl toys and boy toys" thing; my son has, in the past, worn a sparkly rainbow halter top he dug out of a dress-up box when we've gone out of the house; we've encouraged the kids to play with kids of both sexes.

 

My ds has always been very boyish; he came to us at two, and his favorite activity was crashing cars together. He's big into sports. He likes comic books. My dd has always been rather tomboyish, until recently. Being a girl has recently become very important to her. When I told her recently that there are no such things as boy/girl toys, she said impatiently, "I know you always say that, but boys tend to like to play with legos and girls tend to like unicorns." When a friend with three boys offered to babysit, dd said, "What about girls to play with?" When I reminded her that she likes those three boys, she said, "I know, but I'm more into playing with girls these days." Ds, who is 8, was happy last year to play dress-up with dd and the neighbor girl. This year he came home and told dh in disgust, "They're playing GIRL things." My dh pointed out to me the other day that girls seem to go through a horse-loving phase that boys generally don't.

 

I honestly do not believe that all of this is a cultural construct. I think there ARE differences between boys and girls. I think the parents in the article are misguided and foolish. I think they are making things harder for their children than if they just said, "Our kids can do what they like, and we won't comment on it." It sounds like they have had a few too many conversations with their son about gender. I think what they are doing with the baby is pointless. They don't live on an island. Gender messages will reach their kids regardless of what they do, and I think they run the risk of making their kids ashamed of having gender preferences, whatever those preferences are. It sounds like they want perfectly balanced kids, not kids with any distinct preferences.

 

My dh spent a long time convincing me that I can dress in a way that flatters the fact that I am a woman without making me look trampy. Somewhere along the line I picked up the idea that figure-flattering clothes are trampy. In my late 30s, I can finally put on a fitted t-shirt and shapely jeans and feel good about myself. And although getting male attention is not my goal, I do find that I get a lot more compliments than I did when I dressed more androgynously.

 

I like that there are are boys and girls, men and women in the world, and just like we are supposed to celebrate diversity in the cultural and racial sphere, I think we should do so in the gender sphere as well.

 

I'm sure that was long and pointless. :D

 

Tara

[twoforjoy]

I honestly do not believe that all of this is a cultural construct. I think there ARE differences between boys and girls.

 

I think it's a bit of both. I do think there are some general, inherent differences between boys and girls. However, I also think human diversity is such that whatever group differences there may be between males and females are probably going to be outweighed by individual differences.

 

Men are generally taller than women. But that doesn't tell you much about how tall any individual man or woman is. I'm 5'8" and there are many men that I'm taller than. It doesn't negate the fact that men in general are taller than women in general, and that's probably useful to know if you want to make a broad generalization, but it's not very useful for knowing anything about the height of an individual person.

 

I think other gender differences are the same. I do think that, in general, men are more aggressive than women and women are more nurturing than men, but I don't know that that gives us any insight into what any particular, individual woman or man we encounter will be like, because individuals are so varied, and there are plenty of women who are more aggressive than the average man and plenty of men who are more nurturing than the average woman, even if the group generalizations hold true.

 

I do completely agree with you about these parents not have the best approach, though, and that just letting their kids like what they like without making a big deal of it either way would be better. My DS naturally gravitated more toward playing with cars, and I had to give up my "no gun play" stance because it was just such a losing battle, and my DD naturally gravitates towards playing with the stuffed animals my DS never had any use for. But, my DS also sometimes enjoys having tea parties with his sister, and my DD likes pushing cars around with DS sometimes. I don't see a need to make an issue of either choice, for either of them.

 

I also think that kids go through a stage where they get really rigid in their thinking about gender. DS's seemed to be when he was maybe 5, and suddenly everything was "for boys" or "for girls" and he didn't want to play with girls. In the last year or so he's kind of let that go, and now he plays nicely with his girl friends and doesn't get all uptight about what's "for girls" and "for boys." My DH, who studies psychology and knows more about this kind of thing than I do, assured me that it was a totally normal phase of development, and it would pass, which does seem to be the case.

[cathmom]

I'll start at the end first. My husband is squeemish of pretty much all bodily fluids. He passes out when they take his blood, he only poops before he takes a shower so he doesn't have to wipe just in case he gets his hand dirty. It's quite ridiculous. But I'd rather do all the diaper changes than to have him throw up every time. We negotiated a deal so he did his fair share of work.

 

As for it affecting my son's life. He was given freedom to be a baby that I don't think people gave my older son. No one said anything disparaging about him crying and generally being miserable after having his vaccinations, or if he hurt himself, or if he wanted to cuddle.

 

He's noticably less feminine than my older son, but no one ever hinted that it would be wrong for him to do anything because they didn't have a gender based prejudice for him. My older son on the other hand was frequently told to stop being a wuss when he would fall when he first learned to walk. Among other things. My MIL yelled at my husband for three hours straight because I made a newborn-sized cloth doll for our son while I was pregnant with #2.

 

Not telling them until my son told them himself was great for my son. He knew what he was insomuch as any one year old knows. But he was not limited to be what other people thought that meant.

 

Both my boys love the colour pink because it's white and red at the same time ;)

 

And am I the only one who had to endure circumcision debates?

 

:grouphug: It sounds like you have very challenging family circumstances that seemed to suggest a different course of action for your situation. I would not equate it with the story that we are discussing.

 

I cannot imagine anyone calling a just-walking toddler a "wuss" for crying when he fell down. I'm so sorry.

[Carpe]

:grouphug: It sounds like you have very challenging family circumstances that seemed to suggest a different course of action for your situation. I would not equate it with the story that we are discussing.

 

I cannot imagine anyone calling a just-walking toddler a "wuss" for crying when he fell down. I'm so sorry.

 

I think my situation is more extreme than most, but I understand the desire to avoid that for your kids whether they're 11 months or 11 years old.

 

Honestly, I couldn't imagine it either before it happened.

 

Thank you for the hugs :) sometimes I wonder how DH turned out normal at all.

[twoforjoy]

The boys I grew up with would NEVER have hit or touched a girl. Gentlemen simply did not do such a thing, today that seems different.

 

Do you honestly believe this? You really believe that spousal abuse and rape did not exist until this generation? I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that, because it demonstrates a level of willful ignorance of history and reality that is just staggering.

 

Rape has been around since people have been around. And the abuse of women has been, too. If anything, "this generation" is one of the first to take both seriously as problems that affect women, as opposed to seeing them as property crimes against men.

[pqr]

Do you honestly believe this? You really believe that spousal abuse and rape did not exist until this generation? I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that, because it demonstrates a level of willful ignorance of history and reality that is just staggering.

 

Rape has been around since people have been around. And the abuse of women has been, too. If anything, "this generation" is one of the first to take both seriously as problems that affect women, as opposed to seeing them as property crimes against men.

 

 

I did not say that. I said the boys I grew up with. None of them have ever been in prison those I still know are still married.

 

No one denies the existence of rape, simply that I grew up with boys who would NEVER hit a girl.