stripe Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110524/ts_yblog_thelookout/parents-keep-childs-gender-under-wraps I have observed a fair number of homeschoolers on their blogs and on this forum mention their boys who have long hair and/or wear dresses. Is it really a growing phenomenon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I have observed a fair number of homeschoolers on their blogs and on this forum mention their boys who have long hair and/or wear dresses. Is it really a growing phenomenon? Heaven forbid!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoxcell Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I don't think this story has anything to do with their kids having long hair. These parents have much larger issues than that. Seriously the only one making a big deal out of gender in their kids life is them. I highly doubt a 5, 2, and 4 month old would care at all about the topic if their parents were not making such a huge deal over it. I see some serious therapy in these boys future.:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 :lurk5: I almost posted this the other day. It is being discussed on another board where I am a member and I got curious about what The Hive would say. I just never got around to posting. :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I don't think this story has anything to do with their kids having long hair. :iagree: I think the kids will learn plenty quick. Unless they are kept wrapped in a box. :) I'm certainly not a child psychologist, but sex and race came out of my boy's mouth before I thought he'd even been introduced to them. These parents sound tedious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wabi Sabi Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 This is totally not about long hair on boys. It's about parents who seem to have forgotten that the baby is a child, not a social experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) I think the parents in the article are misguided IMO even though I sympathize with the sentiment of letting people be people to a degree. I think boys and girls are definitely different but still equal humans;) OTOH I think boys and girls have many similarities as well but IMO men are from mars and women are from venus usually;) I think it is important to foster a gender except when there is possible transgender issues and then it should be done carefully if at all from what I little I know. I agree that some people are born transgendered or gay and I respect that. I think of male and female as being on a continuum biologically in that some people are a little of both. These individuals, of course, should be free to be who they are since forcing a gender on them could be the wrong choice as as happened to some:(. Edited May 25, 2011 by priscilla spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 I just laughed because I remember some book I had as a child with the story about X. I think it's better to teach your girls they can be scientists or whatever, than to teach them they must wear overalls and be androgynous in order to be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicAnn Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I just don't understand this whole gender thing. Neither the story, nor the almost vicious posts (on another board I'm on) about boys who wear dresses or girls who play with trucks. I don't understand the focus on gender. I am empowered by being my gender. I feel complete now that, at age 24, I've embraced my feminine side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Heaven forbid!!! What is this comment supposed to mean? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 In my Human Development psychology class (just finished - yaaay!), textbook and teacher emphasized the research that shows the most well adjusted members of society have the most androgynous tendencies. There seems to be a big movement in modern psychology to eliminate parent-initiated gender identification and socially forced conformity to traditional gender roles. These parents seem to be taking that research waaaaay too seriously. But folks, the notion is out there. It's what many students in our mainstream universities are being taught in their psych classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne J Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote=kalanamak;2758567... These parents sound tedious. :iagree:In the extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 :iagree: I think the kids will learn plenty quick. Unless they are kept wrapped in a box. :) Are you saying kids will learn what "typical" gender markers are early on from their peers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I think it's better to teach your girls they can be scientists or whatever, than to teach them they must wear overalls and be androgynous in order to be happy. :iagree: And of cours,e the same goes for boys. What I don't understand is how they think the kids won't, themselves, say something to other people??? Are they going to have to tell their kids to lie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhgillil Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I understand where they are coming from. Many aspects of gender are socially learned. But I do not agree with it and think that it may ultimately be detrimental to the child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 In my Human Development psychology class (just finished - yaaay!), textbook and teacher emphasized the research that shows the most well adjusted members of society have the most androgynous tendencies. There seems to be a big movement in modern psychology to eliminate parent-initiated gender identification and socially forced conformity to traditional gender roles. These parents seem to be taking that research waaaaay too seriously. But folks, the notion is out there. It's what many students in our mainstream universities are being taught in their psych classes. I would like to hear more about this research. What exactly does that mean, "androgynous tendencies"? How are they measuring who is most well-adjusted? Do you think this science was well done or hogwash? It sounds like the latter category to me, :D but I would like to find out more. :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Geek Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I do think the big issue here is that it will likely be detrimental to the child as well. Why would you do such a thing to a kid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I think it would be an absolutely fabulous way to be... ...if the rest of the world were on the same page. Unfortunately, I think more damage is going to be done by virtue of being so "out there" than would be done by the actual "experiment". (ETA - I have a boy with relatively long hair who is happy to play dress up with his sisters, and girls who play with bugs and build things. That's nothing new!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wabi Sabi Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I do think the big issue here is that it will likely be detrimental to the child as well. Why would you do such a thing to a kid? Exactly. I'm sympathetic to the issue (heck, my own ds has longish hair and as a toddler wanted to be a ballerina when he grew up) but taking it to such an extreme just cannot be healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amey311 Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I saw that article on facebook (and didn't read it). First, i'm not sure I would classify someone with children under 5 has "homeschoolers." I mean, wear that label if you want, but when your child is not school age, you're living with your children. Second, I was reminded of a storyline from "Rick and Steve - The Happiest Gay Couple in All the World." Two women have a baby and they name it "Echinacea" and refuse to learn the gender of the baby so that s/he can discover that for her/himself. Yes, the show is an irreverent cartoon. It was on the Logo network. When others baby sat, they were also supposed to avoid finding out the child's gender (just how do you do that with diaper changes?? :) ), but one couple does find out and then has to try to keep it a secret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmkzbcb Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 "Though Jazz likes dressing as a girl, he doesn't seem to want to be mistaken for one. He recently asked his mother to let the leaders of a nature center know that he's a boy. And he chose not to attend a conventional school because of the questions about his gender. Asked whether that upsets him, Jazz nodded." This is when I as a mother would say "OK, experiment over." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraGB Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Dh sent me this earlier via the "email a friend" feature - I thought it was spam :lol: Honestly, I feel these parents are doing a huge disservice to both the child and the family from whom they are keeping the information. I'm not suggesting getting the little fella plastic guns and overalls, or the little girl Bratz and pink dresses, but come on; there are substantial hormonal differences between male an female, and I think it might be comforting to have parents who understand and nurture that. The world is confusing enough for a new person (or an old one) without adding personal gender identity to the pile on purpose. If the parents' point is gay acceptance, they are certainly going about it in, what I feel, is a detrimental manner to their own family. :( There are so many other ways to make their point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) I would like to hear more about this research. What exactly does that mean, "androgynous tendencies"? How are they measuring who is most well-adjusted? Do you think this science was well done or hogwash? It sounds like the latter category to me, :D but I would like to find out more. :bigear: I sent my textbook back yesterday, or I'd pull out some quotes for you. (It was a rental.) It really is truly mostly about giving kids the freedom to express themselves, including not redirecting them when the girls say they want to be firemen when they grow up, or when boys want to play with dolls. Basically, don't interfere. I think the goal is to stop forcing traditional gender roles (mostly girls feeling they must be homemaker wives and mothers). I did not see anything that advocated this sort of restrictive parenting, with denying any gender at all. That's radical, and, in my opinion, a misinterpretation of the concept. I'll go back into my class account and see if there are still any studies posted that I can share. ETA - Also, normally adjusted young children *strongly* identify with their own gender and the characteristics thereof. I cannot imagine what they're going to do when this child gets to be 3 or 4. Even if they keep it from outsiders, they have to tell the child, or at least acknowledge his/her observations. Otherwise that poor kid is going to be supremely confused. Edited May 25, 2011 by AuntieM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I sent my textbook back yesterday, or I'd pull out some quotes for you. (It was a rental.) It really is truly mostly about giving kids the freedom to express themselves, including not redirecting them when the girls say they want to be firemen when they grow up, or when boys want to play with dolls. Basically, don't interfere. I think the goal is to stop forcing traditional gender roles (mostly girls feeling they must be homemaker wives and mothers). I did not see anything that advocated this sort of restrictive parenting, with denying any gender at all. That's radical, and, in my opinion, a misinterpretation of the concept. I'll go back into my class account and see if there are still any studies posted that I can share. Thanks for explaining. I don't think there's any doubt that people can take traditional gender roles too far. (I know of a man who insisted on no gender-neutral clothing for his wife's baby shower because he found it creepy :001_huh:). But this couple seems to be taking it to new extremes in the other direction. Weird stuff. Anyway, I appreciate the offer, but don't go to too much trouble. Maybe I can find something online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 If the parents' point is gay acceptance, they are certainly going about it in, what I feel, is a detrimental manner to their own family. :( There are so many other ways to make their point. I really don't think it has anything at all to do with homo- or heterosexuality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarfoot Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 In my Human Development psychology class (just finished - yaaay!), textbook and teacher emphasized the research that shows the most well adjusted members of society have the most androgynous tendencies. There seems to be a big movement in modern psychology to eliminate parent-initiated gender identification and socially forced conformity to traditional gender roles. These parents seem to be taking that research waaaaay too seriously. But folks, the notion is out there. It's what many students in our mainstream universities are being taught in their psych classes. Yes, my undergrad. degree is in psychology, (so is my grad. degree) and we took all of the gender- type of "inventories" in our classes. I always scored "high feminine" and "high masculine" tendencies, meaning, according to my professors, I'm interesting.:lol: I really have no idea how this plays out in life. It seems to me just a matter of personality as opposed to something that can be forced on a child. I had all of the normal "girly toys," etc. I just played with the boy stuff, too, just as much if not more. My oldest DD is very much like me in this way. My younger DD is less so. I'm all for letting kids be who they're going to be, but I don't think hiding their gender from other people is the way to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) Not a link, and I'm not sure you can access the full study without registering for something, but this should give you the gist of the theory. This is not a link, just cut-n-paste. www.jstor.org/pss/352476 ETA Hey, it did make a link! Fancy that! Edited May 25, 2011 by AuntieM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraGB Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I really don't think it has anything at all to do with homo- or heterosexuality. Okay - at the risk of sounding completely stupid (again :rolleyes:) - what would be the point? (So not being snarky - genuinely curious because I just can't think of another reason to go this extreme.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I'm all for letting kids be who they're going to be, but I don't think hiding their gender from other people is the way to do it. I agree, and in fact, hiding the gender almost seems to be sending a message that the child SHOULD feel some shame or confusion about it. The comment that their five year old was having gender identity issues tells me that these parents are doing a lot more harm than good. All I remember about being five is planting a garden with my mom, being excited about starting school the next year, and how incredibly thrilled I was when my Dad would bring home a surprise toy for me after his long day at work, and trying not to get in trouble for being too squirmy and bored at the incredibly long church services we attended. :) What makes a five year old have a gender identity crisis? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaichiki Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I do think the big issue here is that it will likely be detrimental to the child as well. Why would you do such a thing to a kid? I wonder if the child will be understanding a message the parents may not intend to send: my gender is something to hide/there's something "wrong" with being male (or female). I think truly well-adjusted children are just happy with who they are, whether it's male or female, and don't think twice about it most of the time. My own 9 y.o. dd had two pictures taken of her over the weekend. In one, she is wearing all purple, with a purple tu-tu/frilly skirt, and hair in pigtails. In the other, she is wearing a bike helmet and aiming a nerf dart gun (very well, I might add). She can be macho and strong and hold her own against her brothers. She can be twirly and giggly and wear lots of jewlery and paint her nails and play with her dollies. She has no problem with being female. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kchara Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 This is totally not about long hair on boys. It's about parents who seem to have forgotten that the baby is a child, not a social experiment. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punchie Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 It sounds like these parents as extreme as the parents who strictly enforce stereotypical gender roles. Their children are going to suffer in the long run b/c of this. It sounds more like it's for the parents instead of the children. I'm all for letting kids be kids....heck my DD has recently informed everyone that when she grows up, she wants to be a "road painter" (pain the lines on roads). Everyone in the family she has told this to has pretty much told her good on her if that's what she wants to do. On the flip side of this, she's very much into pink and princesses. This to me is healthy as she's coming up w/this on her own. We're not forcing her in either direction. It seems like these parents are forcing (even if it's subconciously) their children in this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 What makes a five year old have a gender identity crisis? :confused: Perhaps it's not a "crisis" as you or I might categorize it. What about a boy who loves pink, barbies, dresses, long hair, and ballerinas, and is teased about it...a lot? What about a girl who hates dresses, "looking pretty", prefers hockey to gymnastics? (to be honest, I think the boy has it harder in our culture) Might that induce a bit of a "crisis" for lack of a better term in a 5 year old child? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Okay - at the risk of sounding completely stupid (again :rolleyes:) - what would be the point? (So not being snarky - genuinely curious because I just can't think of another reason to go this extreme.) For the chance to discover and define oneself without any gender-biased ideas. Clothing, hobbies, interests, abilities, friendships, studies, careers... Whether or not we care (or even realize it) gender roles do influence us, even if by making us consciously turn away from expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaichiki Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Perhaps it's not a "crisis" as you or I might categorize it. What about a boy who loves pink, barbies, dresses, long hair, and ballerinas, and is teased about it...a lot? What about a girl who hates dresses, "looking pretty", prefers hockey to gymnastics? (to be honest, I think the boy has it harder in our culture) Might that induce a bit of a "crisis" for lack of a better term in a 5 year old child? Makes me wonder if the couple "finally" has the girl. You know -- the question that strangers always ask -- "So, you're done now that you have the girl, right?" Maybe, if their son was feeling criticized for his preference for things our society may consider feminine, they didn't want him to hear people being "happy" that the family had a girl (therefore implying that girls are more valuable to a boy who already has what society might term "girl envy). It seems like something like the above could induce parents to consider a non-gender experiment with a new baby girl. They might want to consciously prevent sending their sons a message... But it seems they're sending a message however you slice it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Perhaps it's not a "crisis" as you or I might categorize it. What about a boy who loves pink, barbies, dresses, long hair, and ballerinas, and is teased about it...a lot? What about a girl who hates dresses, "looking pretty", prefers hockey to gymnastics? (to be honest, I think the boy has it harder in our culture) Might that induce a bit of a "crisis" for lack of a better term in a 5 year old child? Ah, yes, I see what you mean. My gender was something I don't remember being particularly concerned about at that age, but then again, I didn't have anyone around me making an issue of it or picking on me about it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirch Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Totally unrelated to the merits of the discussion at hand, but can you imagine how stilted and awkward conversations they have about the child will be? Say the mother calls her mom up (the child's grandmother): "Hi mom! How are you? Guess what--Storm just rolled over today. First Storm laid on Storm's belly and wiggled like crazy, and then Storm just flipped over! We are so proud of Storm! Storm is getting to be such a big . . . child!" It would be a relief to talk about the other kids just so you could use pronouns! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EthiopianFood Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 "Though Jazz likes dressing as a girl, he doesn't seem to want to be mistaken for one. He recently asked his mother to let the leaders of a nature center know that he's a boy. And he chose not to attend a conventional school because of the questions about his gender. Asked whether that upsets him, Jazz nodded." This is when I as a mother would say "OK, experiment over." This is the part that alarmed me as well. I actually find the idea of eliminating social messages about gender directly to the child interesting. The parents did say they would stop once any of the children wanted to. At the same time, children want to please their parents, and the fact that the little boy feels this way tells ME that he isn't purely dressing this way or going along with it because he is actually comfortable with it. I feel really badly for them because of this. I don't find the original plan in and of itself offensive though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Ah, yes, I see what you mean. My gender was something I don't remember being particularly concerned about at that age, but then again, I didn't have anyone around me making an issue of it or picking on me about it either. And not every child is like you were :) Many children, particularly boys, experience discrimination from both adults and other children if they veer too far from socially acceptable gender norms. It's not necessarily the parents making an issue of it. And it can cause a crisis of some sort--perhaps minor in the eyes of an adult with bigger fish to fry, but not to the child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 What is this comment supposed to mean? Just curious. It is supposed to demonstrate the fact that I am stunned that any parent would do this to a child that they supposedly love. To raise a male child to be anything other than a man or a female to be anything other than a woman should be an anathema. I am not speaking of those children who are born as hermaphrodites but of the vast majority who are born with a sexuality that matches their "parts." Imagine the living hell those children may eventually face once they actually leave the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I don't see how this can be healthy for the kids. It is one thing to let your child develop outside of the box, and another to not even know what the box is. :confused: I hope this blows over and the kids are happy. The comments made by Jazz don't sound like he is happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 To raise a male child to be anything other than a man or a female to be anything other than a woman should be an anathema. What does it mean to "raise a male child to be anything other than a man" really mean, though? How are you defining "man"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EthiopianFood Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Makes me wonder if the couple "finally" has the girl. This is interesting, although I thought of something completely different than what you said after this point. :lol: I wonder if they see a girl as more suseptible to societal messages. They have two boys who "act like girls," so they can feel that they aren't being pressured (although they don't seem to recognize that they themselves could be the ones sending the messages to which the boys are responding). I wonder if they have this same confidence with a girl. Pure speculation on my part, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdalley Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 And not every child is like you were :) Many children, particularly boys, experience discrimination from both adults and other children if they veer too far from socially acceptable gender norms. It's not necessarily the parents making an issue of it. And it can cause a crisis of some sort--perhaps minor in the eyes of an adult with bigger fish to fry, but not to the child. Interesting. When I grew up every time I expressed a desire to be in a 'traditional' female role when I grew up I was yelled at and told I had the responsibility to be more than a 'baby maker'. And I was a tomboy who got along better with boys and to this day I'm more comfortable talking to men than women. I don't do subtle well. Yet here I am, happy and content to fulfill a 'traditional' female role. It cuts both ways. For what it's worth my boys have never been told to 'act like a man'. They've been told to control themselves until they get home and then they can express their emotions in a safe environment. This would be the case even if we'd had a girl. I wouldn't have been upset if they'd wanted to have long hair or wear pink or dresses as a younger child. They didn't - they were pretty traditional in their ways without DH or I suggesting or steering them in any direction. We basically have just loved them and accepted them as they are. I'm not sure what to think about this couple. Sounds like they embrace TCS - Taking Children Seriously - which in my limited knowledge is radical unparenting where the child is treated equal to an adult in regards to decision making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 What does it mean to "raise a male child to be anything other than a man" really mean, though? How are you defining "man"? Without starting a huge fight, I suspect that most people understand what I mean and before I get accused of it I am not speaking on the issue of sexual preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Without starting a huge fight, I suspect that most people understand what I mean and before I get accused of it I am not speaking on the issue of sexual preference. Oh, I'm not looking to start a huge fight :). But don't you see, when you say "I suspect that most people will understand what I mean" you're assuming, by your very statement, a set of societal norms for gender roles the contravening of which is the subject of the discussion at hand? For me, personally, I don't really know what you mean. I do know what our society and culture expects of men, broadly speaking. But I don't think that defines what "being a man" means. And no, I don't have a definition for what it means to "be a man", either. I do have one, however, for what kind of person I'd like each of my sons to grow up to be. Personally, I abhor it when I hear people chastize young men to "act like a man" or "be a man". It seems to be a thinly veiled swipe at behavior that seems "weak" or "feminine". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbeyej Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I had a friend who raised her children similarly. She did let us know her son was a boy and her daughter was a girl, but she was very concerned about not restricting them to gender-specific clothing. (She said she went with "gender-neutral" clothing -- but the other children didn't think that leggings with bows on them were particularly "neutral".) She also never cut her son's hair, and because it was so long, they put colorful barrettes in it to keep it out of his face. Again, the other kids assumed this meant he was really a girl, even when we said, "No, so-and-so is a boy." He found it upsetting when people thought he was a girl and the other kids were confused. *shrug* His mother was very loving and kind. She didn't go quite so far as the family in this story -- her kids grew up more like the two preschoolers mentioned in the story. But I do think her children experienced confusion because of her choices. Not confusion over their gender -- they knew what they were and seemed comfortable being that -- but confusion over the ways other people responded to their mother's unusual choices. I haven't seen them in a few years now. The oldest will be 12 this summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I think that this is a chance for the parents to use their children as a social experiment and, quite possibly, subtle activism for whatever their point is. As an experiment, then, these kids ARE being told what is acceptable and the parents are mixing it up gender-wise so that their kiddos don't know which way is up or what society OR their own minds accept as "right". The parents want the attention for this. In a successful experiment, there is some accountability to remain objective, but I refuse to believe that when mom and dad buy dresses and pants (to, I'm sure, just "be available") for their boys that at NO time have they ever given a look, gesture, or repeated the question, "What do you REALLY want to wear?" or given preference in some manner some of the time for the *opposite* of what is socially gender-accepted in order to LEAD these children's responses. It's a flawed experiment, whatever the point is, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristusG Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) Honestly, I think the kids are going to look back on their childhood and wonder why their parents put them through this. I personally think it can be very damaging to them. Not to mention strange too. I am completely on board with things like toys, colors, etc. I've witnessed parents in a store ordering their little boy to "put down that doll...these are the girls toys...let's go to the boys toys." I tell my girls that there are no such things as girl toys and boy toys. There's no such things as girl colors and boy colors. My girls equally play with dinosaurs, trains, and knights just as much as American Girl dolls and princesses. But....they know they are girls and as they grow, I will teach them how to be a woman according to the Bible. I'm not quite sure what this family is trying to accomplish with being "gender free." I mean, you ARE born a certain gender, whether you like it or not. Only one gender can carry and deliver a child. What are they going to tell their boys when they say they want to have a baby in their belly one day? Are they going to tell them that only girls can do that? Because that would be defeating their whole purpose. Females and males are different whether they like it or not. They have different body parts....different things happen during puberty. Their whole scenario just doesn't make much sense to me. I was a little girl who was a HUGE tomboy. I played with Ninja Turtles, jumped ramps with my bike, dressed up as a ninja, played street hockey, never wore dresses, and even one time tried to change my name to Scott. And you know what? My parents didn't freak out. They never pushed me towards girlie things. Yes, I do remember being teased at times....even called degrading names by an adult that lived in our neighborhood. In my mind, I wasn't "trying to be a boy." I was enjoying the things that I loved. My parents let me be who I was, raised me in a Christian home, and you know what? I'm still a tomboy to this day. I'm a mother, I'm a wife, I'm a God-fearing woman....who still does not wear dresses, who has never had a mani or a pedi, and would rather play a Nerf war than spend a day at the spa. I knew I was a girl....there was never any question or doubt. But I didn't use "things" to separate girls from boys. I was a kid who enjoyed ninjas and GI Joes...nothing wrong with that. Edited May 25, 2011 by ChristusG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Heaven forbid!!! I keep getting stuck on the flippant observations that it sounds rather like what various European monarchies used to do with young sons. Wasn't it rather a big deal when an English son finally got to wear "breeches"? But I wonder what sort of reaction there would be for a family that chose to dress a daughter in boy's clothing and keep her hair close shorn, because they believed that it would help acclimatize her to postions of power traditionally held by men. Sounds horribly manipulative on the part of the parents. And I think the family in the story is not doing the great service to their children that they think they are. If the boys are bothered by the fact that people mistake them for girls, I would think that a parent would be willing to take them aside and mention that they are presenting an outer image that is difficult for others to interpret. If you're going to be an iconoclast, then don't get upset if others don't perceive you the way you think you are projecting. (NB: I was into short hair, trench coats and military berets in high school. I often heard my mom complimented on what a nice son she had, meaning me.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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