3 year old suspended from school for having potty-training accidents

[Laurie4b]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/29/AR2011012904520_pf.html

 

Another reason to be grateful for the homeschooling option!

[mo2]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/29/AR2011012904520_pf.html

 

Another reason to be grateful for the homeschooling option!

 

Wow. Poor baby. I don't think I'd let my child go back to that school.

[UnsinkableKristen]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/29/AR2011012904520_pf.html

 

Another reason to be grateful for the homeschooling option!

 

 

Lord, I'm glad we homeschool. It's nice to not have to push on things like this that just don't matter.

[teamturner]

I wonder if something was happening at that school that was upsetting the girl or making her put off going. Especially after it became such a big issue. She hasn't had a single accident at the new school.

 

And $835 a month for preschool? Potty training school? I've never heard of such a thing. Wow!

[Jamee]

I don't know. The pre-schools we've looked into in the past all required the child to be potty trained before they'd be admitted. Considering this is a Montessori school where children are taught to be pretty independent, maybe it was becoming too much for her teachers. I also agree that something must have been happening for the girl to regress, but I'm sure making a big deal about the accidents didn't help any.

[Stacy in NJ]

Yes. In defence of the school, if their policy is that the child be potty trained then that's the policy. Why can't the parents find a pre-school able to accomodate their kiddo? Many schools are less strict on this issue. It seems as if the parents are the ones putting their child in a stressful situation that she's not quite ready for, not the school.

[SonshineLearner]

I think that if she's not "fully trained" that she should be in pull-ups. I had one child trained at 20 months... easy peasy.. and one child trained at 3 years and 3 months... (not so easy) BUT, I never would have sent him to preschool without pull-ups... Preschools don't want to clean up urine or worse... and ... well... that's how it goes. NOW, if they were using pull-ups.. then this wouldn't be a problem, right? (Or, perhaps no pull-ups allowed??)

Hmmm

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that if she's not "fully trained" that she should be in pull-ups. I had one child trained at 20 months... easy peasy.. and one child trained at 3 years and 3 months... (not so easy) BUT, I never would have sent him to preschool without pull-ups... Preschools don't want to clean up urine or worse... and ... well... that's how it goes. NOW, if they were using pull-ups.. then this wouldn't be a problem, right? (Or, perhaps no pull-ups allowed??)

Hmmm

 

In the article, the principal states that they had a "no pull up" policy at the school.

[courtney.byrum]

When we were looking for a preschool for my son at age 3 every school but one required him to be potty trained. He was very late being potty trained without accidents - in fact at 6 1/2 he has a few accidents a month still. Last year when he was at school for K I think he had 6 accidents through the year (and it was only half day...)

 

It was amazing to me that ALL the schools required him to be potty trained. The one we went with did not and was the only one that did not AND it was the one we wanted anyways so it all worked out. I wanted a learn through play type school not academic as he could have gone to K at 3 academic wise.

 

The only other option we had if we wanted him in preschool and not be potty trained was Kindercare and he would have to be in the 2 yr old room until potty trained....

 

 

ETA: It sounds very much like something else was going on there though - she had very few accidents at home and none so far at her new school but so many at the old one.

[Mabelen]

It looks to me that the school's policy was pretty clear. I don't think the the girl was ready to go to a school with such a policy. After all, the parents took her out of the first preschool because of potty training accidents and she had just "graduated" from potty training summer school!

 

For some kids it takes time, and I don't think this girl was given that time before she was placed at a school where she was expected to be fully potty trained. A Montessori classroom is multiage, with 3 year olds being the youngest and 5 and 6 year olds being the oldest. They are really not equipped to handle kids who are not fully potty trained. That is a very standard policy across primary Montessori schools. Some schools have pre primary classrooms that are staffed adequately to handle kids who are not potty trained.

[Kirch]

It looks to me that the school's policy was pretty clear. I don't think the the girl was ready to go to a school with such a policy. After all, the parents took her out of the first preschool because of potty training accidents and she had just "graduated" from potty training summer school!

 

For some kids it takes time, and I don't think this girl was given that time before she was placed at a school where she was expected to be fully potty trained. A Montessori classroom is multiage, with 3 year olds being the youngest and 5 and 6 year olds being the oldest. They are really not equipped to handle kids who are not fully potty trained. That is a very standard policy across primary Montessori schools. Some schools have pre primary classrooms that are staffed adequately to handle kids who are not potty trained.

 

I totally agree with this. If that's the policy, that's the policy, and it's definitely understandable--and no one is forced to send their child to this preschool. The thing that bothers me, though, is that it seems to have been handled more as a *discipline* issue rather than a *development* issue. Even if they had to ask the parents to take the girl out of the preschool, the way it comes across in the article is that there was a high "shame factor" (announcing at pick-up time in front of everyone how many accidents she'd had that day) and the description of the principal's involvement again sounds disciplinary rather than just sitting down with the parents and explaining the policy and what they'd have to do. Much too much pressure for such a young child who is already having a hard time meeting the potty requirements!

[mo2]

I agree that the policy is clear. But I don't think the principal needed to make a big deal out of announcing it in front of everyone and probably embarrassing the child.

[gardening momma]

Even if they had to ask the parents to take the girl out of the preschool, the way it comes across in the article is that there was a high "shame factor" (announcing at pick-up time in front of everyone how many accidents she'd had that day)

I think that was the first school, before she transferred to the Montessori school.

 

Also, I don't think they were telling everyone how many accidents each child had, but that they were telling the parents at pick-up, and it was in an area where everyone could hear.

[Kirch]

I think that was the first school, before she transferred to the Montessori school.

 

Also, I don't think they were telling everyone how many accidents each child had, but that they were telling the parents at pick-up, and it was in an area where everyone could hear.

 

Ah, you're right about it being the first school. Missed that the first time through the article.

[Audrey]

Yes, poor girl -- not for being suspended for potty accidents, but for having to be sent away to school at 3 years old.

 

I dislike the concept of pre-school. They're barely out of babyhood. IMNSHO, that's what parents are for, not "schools."

 

Flame away. :D

[Lolly]

Sign of the times? What on earth? Daycare doesn't usually have a potty trained policy. Preschools normally do. If you are not potty trained, you are not generally allowed in a preschool setting (at least here). It isn't like it is mandatory schooling or anything. If the kid isn't potty trained, don't send them to a school that requires it. Preschools are typically not set up to deal with diaper changing. The student to teacher ratio and activities are not such that stopping to change diapers or assist in potty training is feasible. (Yes, they deal with an occasional accident; it isn't a normal part of their day.) I think the mother needs to quit worrying so much about losing out on the time from work and start reading the requirements of the schools before signing her dd up for them.

[LidiyaDawn]

Yes, poor girl -- not for being suspended for potty accidents, but for having to be sent away to school at 3 years old.

 

I dislike the concept of pre-school. They're barely out of babyhood. IMNSHO, that's what parents are for, not "schools."

 

Flame away. :D

 

:iagree:

 

 

and -- There are folks trying to potty train their three month old BABIES??

 

Rosso's fight comes as a new movement, called "elimination communication," is pushing to have infants as young as three months begin potty training. "Fast track," another controversial early training method in which a child is saturated with drinks and then placed on the pot, is also growing in popularity.

:001_huh:

[angela in ohio]

Sign of the times? What on earth? Daycare doesn't usually have a potty trained policy. Preschools normally do. If you are not potty trained, you are not generally allowed in a preschool setting (at least here). It isn't like it is mandatory schooling or anything. If the kid isn't potty trained, don't send them to a school that requires it. Preschools are typically not set up to deal with diaper changing. The student to teacher ratio and activities are not such that stopping to change diapers or assist in potty training is feasible. (Yes, they deal with an occasional accident; it isn't a normal part of their day.) I think the mother needs to quit worrying so much about losing out on the time from work and start reading the requirements of the schools before signing her dd up for them.

 

:iagree:

[Princess Peach]

Yes, poor girl -- not for being suspended for potty accidents, but for having to be sent away to school at 3 years old.

 

I dislike the concept of pre-school. They're barely out of babyhood. IMNSHO, that's what parents are for, not "schools."

 

Flame away. :D

 

I agree with you.

[angela in ohio]

:iagree:

 

 

and -- There are folks trying to potty train their three month old BABIES??

 

Rosso's fight comes as a new movement, called "elimination communication," is pushing to have infants as young as three months begin potty training. "Fast track," another controversial early training method in which a child is saturated with drinks and then placed on the pot, is also growing in popularity.

:001_huh:

 

I thought it was odd to include that in the article. It seems the issue at hand is the trend to potty train later meeting the trend to start preschools at 3 instead of 4.

[MelanieM]

 

and -- There are folks trying to potty train their three month old BABIES??

 

Rosso's fight comes as a new movement, called "elimination communication," is pushing to have infants as young as three months begin potty training. "Fast track," another controversial early training method in which a child is saturated with drinks and then placed on the pot, is also growing in popularity.

:001_huh:

 

Elimination communication is not at all the same thing as potty training. Rather, it is a practice of looking for signs that a baby needs to go to the bathroom and facilitating that rather than simply letting them soil themselves. Babies are capable of clearly communicating their potty needs, just as they are capable of letting you know when they need to eat. Also, while this is a relatively new movement in North America, it is an age old practice in many cultures around the world; there's nothing "new" here.

[mom2denj]

Fast track potty training?? Starting at 3 months old, really?

 

Potty training school??

 

I am speechless! (This doesn't happen often) =)

[susankenny]

I don't think it's a big deal. The school is simply saying, "Take a month. Potty train your kid". It's a reasonable policy. If the mom doesn't like it, she should have chosen a different preschool, although I do believe that's a policy to be potty trained by that age in most schools.

 

Susan

[Tammyla]

One more reason they should still call it child-care or day-care as it was for years, and not school. Poor kid is only three and punished for being a kid.

[LidiyaDawn]

and -- There are folks trying to potty train their three month old BABIES??

 

Rosso's fight comes as a new movement, called "elimination communication," is pushing to have infants as young as three months begin potty training. "Fast track," another controversial early training method in which a child is saturated with drinks and then placed on the pot, is also growing in popularity.

:001_huh:

 

 

 

Elimination communication is not at all the same thing as potty training. Rather, it is a practice of looking for signs that a baby needs to go to the bathroom and facilitating that rather than simply letting them soil themselves. Babies are capable of clearly communicating their potty needs, just as they are capable of letting you know when they need to eat. Also, while this is a relatively new movement in North America, it is an age old practice in many cultures around the world; there's nothing "new" here.

 

"facilitating that" = what? holding a 3 month old baby over a plastic potty?

 

I'm trying to picture this playing out and... it just ain't happening.

[jplain]

If the kid isn't potty trained, don't send them to a school that requires it. Preschools are typically not set up to deal with diaper changing. The student to teacher ratio and activities are not such that stopping to change diapers or assist in potty training is feasible.

Around here, it is a licensing issue. They'd have to have different staffing ratios if the teachers are helping children with toileting. So all of the preschools around here require potty training before enrollment, no pullups allowed.

[MelanieM]

"facilitating that" = what? holding a 3 month old baby over a plastic potty?

 

I'm trying to picture this playing out and... it just ain't happening.

 

Yes, over a potty or bowl. Usually with very little ones (some people practice starting in the first days/weeks) Mama or Daddy will hold baby against their chest with a cloth diaper or bowl beneath. In my family, we start when baby has good head control (usually about 2 months) and use a Baby Bjorn potty. (We also diaper as back-up, but some families don't diaper at all, or only when out, etc.)

 

Babies, even infants, *will* signal to you when they need to go to the bathroom. I have very fond memories of my daughter signing "potty" to me when she was only 7 mos old.

 

It isn't training them to take them to the potty... in fact, we train them to go in a diaper by not acknowledging that they know when they need to go. Then a couple years later we have to train them again to listen to their body again after years of not really paying attention.

[Laura Corin]

The school Calvin went to was not fazed by children of five having potty accidents: when children are stressed or engrossed it can happen.

 

Laura

[bettyandbob]

The school had a policy the children needed to be potty trained. The child was not. The mother should not have enrolled her child. She should have kept her home or in a more traditional daycare while the child transitioned to be being fully trained.

 

There are lots of montessori preschools in this area. It would be highly unusual to find one that permitted untoilet trained children. The fees quoted are not unusual. This is an expensive area.

 

Pull ups are diapers and a facility has to have licensing for diapers to allow them. When my oldest was 3 and not quite toilet trained he went to a daycare that transitioned him to their preschool program, they were able to do this because their facility had previously been licensed for diapers for a toddler program. The toddler program was no longer in the preschool building, but they had the license already. I have heard of part time preschools with written toilet trained policies making exceptions. However, all the programs I've known to do this also had mother's day out programs for non toilet trained toddlers--so they had the licensing and staffing.

 

The mom pushed her kid into the wrong program. Shame on mom.

[Farrar]

Dh wrote about this for his local column this morning:

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local-beat/Three-Year-Old-Suspended-Over-Potty-Issue-114978879.html

 

I basically agree that the school clearly had the right to kick her out. It sounds like they could have handled it SO much better though. My guess is that someone - whether the teachers or the parents - were probably saying things like, "You can't have another accident or you'll be kicked out of school!" to this poor kid. No wonder she kept wetting her pants.

[kalphs]

The "academic pre-schools" (not daycare) in our area require the children to be potty trained before they attend.

When I asked one of the faculty why the pre-school she taught at had this policy her reply was, "It is so the parents will take responsibility for their children."

[Mejane]

I get it, but it still makes me sad. Three is still a baby, imo.

[UnsinkableKristen]

The thing that bothers me, though, is that it seems to have been handled more as a *discipline* issue rather than a *development* issue.

 

 

:iagree: And I think the applies to both the school AND the parents. While the entire thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth (because it was things like this that made us decide to homeschool in the first place), it's mostly that neither the school nor the parents seem to acknowledge that children have accidents and it's just a part of life. The school's policy, while pretty normal, seems to have been upheld much more stringently than others. And the parents seem to be unable to see that their child just. isn't. ready.

[ReneTL]

Having worked in a Montessori classroom for 3-6 year olds, I completely understand the school's policy. Our school had the policy that all 3 year olds be trained and we had many arrive that were still in the "maybe" category. As a result, we had several accidents the first few weeks. However, most children settled into the routine and the accidents waned. We still had a few, but we learned the children that needed to be prompted more than others. 8 accidents in one month is way more than teachers should have to deal with, given the structured environment. I feel for them all, but the child needs to be with her parents for a while.

 

Peace,

Rene

[PiCO]

I don't think it's a big deal. The school is simply saying, "Take a month. Potty train your kid". It's a reasonable policy. If the mom doesn't like it, she should have chosen a different preschool, although I do believe that's a policy to be potty trained by that age in most schools.

 

I agree. I think allowing 8 accidents in a month is not an unreasonable policy for kids that are supposed to be potty trained.

[PiCO]

I get it, but it still makes me sad. Three is still a baby, imo.

 

I agree, but I think the mother should not have put the child into a situation she was not ready for.

[astrid]

It looks to me that the school's policy was pretty clear. I don't think the the girl was ready to go to a school with such a policy. After all, the parents took her out of the first preschool because of potty training accidents and she had just "graduated" from potty training summer school!

 

For some kids it takes time, and I don't think this girl was given that time before she was placed at a school where she was expected to be fully potty trained. A Montessori classroom is multiage, with 3 year olds being the youngest and 5 and 6 year olds being the oldest. They are really not equipped to handle kids who are not fully potty trained. That is a very standard policy across primary Montessori schools. Some schools have pre primary classrooms that are staffed adequately to handle kids who are not potty trained.

 

I agree.

 

astrid

[PiCO]

Here are some (I think) telling quotes from the article:

 

Erdos said county practice is to remove a child who has eight accidents in a month. "Once it gets to that point," she said, "it disrupts the class."

 

I think 8 accidents is quite a bit of leway.

 

Zoe's story

Rosso went through a potty-training class in the summer. By the end of July, Zoe was using the toilet regularly. But when she started a new preschool program in September, the change threw her off. At pickup time, Zoe's teacher announced in front of everyone how many accidents the child had that day, Rosso said.

Two weeks later, when a slot opened up at the Claremont Montessori program, the Rossos gratefully transferred Zoe.

 

She went to a potty-training CLASS? Talk about stressing a kid out. Then she had more awefulness thrown at her by a teacher humiliating her in front of everyone. So her mom puts her in a school with a strict potty policy? This girl needs some love and patience, not more academic pushing.

 

After frantic calls, the parents found a spot for Zoe in a program that works with children who are being potty-trained.

"We told Zoe that we want her to go to a school where people aren't going to get mad at her for having accidents," Rosso said.

Since she started at the new school on Jan. 11, her mother said, Zoe has made it to the toilet every time.

 

Problem solved. All the parent had to do was get her child into a program that was appropriate for her. (I wonder how Tiger Mom would have handled this?;))

[Laurie4b]

Dh wrote about this for his local column this morning:

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local-beat/Three-Year-Old-Suspended-Over-Potty-Issue-114978879.html

 

I basically agree that the school clearly had the right to kick her out. It sounds like they could have handled it SO much better though. My guess is that someone - whether the teachers or the parents - were probably saying things like, "You can't have another accident or you'll be kicked out of school!" to this poor kid. No wonder she kept wetting her pants.

 

This part of your husband's article is what sticks out to me:

"The issue is about more than a mess. Potty training is a complex issue in fragile early childhood psychological development, and forcing a child to learn the task too quickly can result in neurosis. That was clear in Zoe’s case. During her month away from Claremont, Zoe had few accidents. But in her first days back at the school this month, she had five. Now at a new school with a less restrictive mentality, she’s had none."

[LibraryLover]

Slow news day? Moutains and molehills? I think Tiger Mom would have told the kid to suck it up, and get her arse on the toilet. No flunking out of preschool!

 

Not that I would agree with that, of course.

[Heatherwith4]

Yes, poor girl -- not for being suspended for potty accidents, but for having to be sent away to school at 3 years old.

 

I dislike the concept of pre-school. They're barely out of babyhood. IMNSHO, that's what parents are for, not "schools."

 

Flame away. :D

This.

[Laurie4b]

Yes, poor girl -- not for being suspended for potty accidents, but for having to be sent away to school at 3 years old.

 

I dislike the concept of pre-school. They're barely out of babyhood. IMNSHO, that's what parents are for, not "schools."

 

Flame away. :D

 

:iagree: I hate the academic pressure such that kids need to be in preschool at all. Then to have failed at school at age 3 because she's not potty trained...

 

I am glad that we homeschooled!

[LibraryLover]

I'll be a dissenter. :D I don't consider preschool school. I think a lot of hs'd tots would be happy partime in preschool. I read about too many 3 yr olds getting into trouble/ being bored/getting punished while their bigs sibs are being taught by mom. A fun little part time program can be a perfect compromise.

 

Just don't pick the school in the article. ;)

[cin]

Wow. Poor baby. I don't think I'd let my child go back to that school.

 

 

And if my child were attending that school, I'd pull them out. that is just ridiculous. Heck, I didn't even start training my kids until they were almost 3. (Strongwilled girls). Actually, both of them wore diapers at their 3rd birthday party. I just figured that was the best way to avoid a scene. Not that accidents were EVER considered SCENES around here.

[Dmmetler]

Licensing can also work both ways. My DD effectively trained herself really young (I'm convinced SID worked for us here-she hated being wet, and apparently taught herself to hold it and release all at once very, very young, so as soon as she had a little potty and could pull her pants down, she was trained. I wish I could take credit, but I can't!) , but was in an MDO program which wasn't set up for toilet training in the room she was in due to age. I don't think the teachers were deliberately trying to torture my DD, but they simply weren't set up for a toilet trained child in a room where all the kids were in diapers-and even if there had been a toilet where DD could get to it, she couldn't take off diapers by herself. The 2s teacher took it upon herself to take DD to the bathroom from the playground when both classes were outside (and there were enough adults to meet ratio), because she could see the signs of a child who NEEDED to go-but the director not only refused to move DD up, but gave me a lecture about "expecting toilet training too young".

 

I found a different program, one with a wider age range in the toddler room, that was thrilled to have a child who, as long as she knew where the bathroom was, was toilet trained!

[lamamaloca]

Sign of the times? What on earth? Daycare doesn't usually have a potty trained policy. Preschools normally do. If you are not potty trained, you are not generally allowed in a preschool setting (at least here). It isn't like it is mandatory schooling or anything. If the kid isn't potty trained, don't send them to a school that requires it. Preschools are typically not set up to deal with diaper changing. The student to teacher ratio and activities are not such that stopping to change diapers or assist in potty training is feasible. (Yes, they deal with an occasional accident; it isn't a normal part of their day.) I think the mother needs to quit worrying so much about losing out on the time from work and start reading the requirements of the schools before signing her dd up for them.

 

Absolutely!! Most standard preschools aren't set up to deal with non-potty trained kids, period. An occasional accident is far different from daily issues.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Several things about this article annoyed me. One thing that bothered me was their mention of Elimination Communication. First of all, the way they brought it up as if one is pressuring a 3 month old to "go potty" shows a complete misunderstanding of what EC is all about. Second, it has no relevance to the article. Nowhere did they mention EC in reference to the girl in this controversy.

 

Elimination Communication is not about "forcing a child to potty train" but it is about parents recognizing the signals babies give when they are about to eliminate. If parents pay attention to these signals and take the child to eliminate. I can't remember the timing, but at a certain point, if the signals are habitually ignored, the child learns to ignore their own body signals Many cultures that do not have access to clean water use this instead of diapers. It is common in Africa. It only works if children are very close to their parents so that they can catch the signals. It is often impractical in cultures where babies are not worn most of the day and slept with at night.

 

Another aspect ... all the preschools around here are very clear that a child must be "completely toilet trained" in order to enroll. What that means is no accidents or very infrequent accidents. As much as I am sympathetic to parents of children who train late (I had 2 that did), as someone who worked with small children, it was very difficult to provide adequate supervision of the group of I had to deal with lots of accidents. Plus, it was a pain to clean up every surface the child had been on because we often did not discover the accident right away. In our case, it was moms who wanted their children in that program to take advantage of carpooling and to have regular tennis dates.

 

While I think nearly $1000 a month for preschool is simply outrageous, I sympathize with parents who have children who train late, but are ready for something more than colors and songs. My son was reading before he was potty trained. He would be correcting children playing with dinosaurs that they were playing wrong - they had put the meat eaters with the plant eaters and that they had dinos from different periods together. The kids in diapers were not his academic peers. His late potty training was the reason we investigated homeschooling in the first place.

[LibraryLover]

LOL He sounds like my brother who also counts pixels! He notices when they are out. He's an awesome person who always has something interesting to offer! My brainiac has a fliter, and I've thanked him, because pixel kids are not easy to keep up with! I remember my mother trying to to! :) My ds' preschool teacher didn't even know he could read at first. I asked ds why he didn't read at school and he said "Why would I need to read at preschool? I go there to play, I can read at home any time."

 

 

 

While I think nearly $1000 a month for preschool is simply outrageous, I sympathize with parents who have children who train late, but are ready for something more than colors and songs. My son was reading before he was potty trained. He would be correcting children playing with dinosaurs that they were playing wrong - they had put the meat eaters with the plant eaters and that they had dinos from different periods together. The kids in diapers were not his academic peers. His late potty training was the reason we investigated homeschooling in the first place.

Edited February 1, 2011 by LibraryLover