S/O parenting these kids (or “kids”) these days

[Soror]

Sounds like CBT could be effective for him if he will go.  I have a young adult with different issues. I try very hard to keep in mind there are many paths and some take longer to reach maturity. I replay in my head what the NP told us about brain maturation with neurodiversity. I try hard not to compare others that don't have similar struggles. Some days I succeed and some days I don't! It's very hard to see our young adults struggle. 

[freesia]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think housing expenses are incredibly high compared to incomes and I see why these kids are discouraged, but I don’t think they understand the hours of overtime and drudgery GenXer were willing to put in to pull it off. I also don’t think they quite grasp how much we were willing to lower our living standards to make it work. Many of them cannot imaging living in a less desirable area and never eating out or going out for a few years to make it work. They think they NEED work-life balance in their childless twenties when there’s no better time to work ridiculous hours or go all in with your personal goals. If you are just prioritizing dining out, concert tickets, and travel, that’s perfectly fine but it’s a choice. The sheer amount of physical hustle that existed pre-internet can be viewed as impossible. I’ll bet a lot of people who say they don’t have time for a second job spend 5+ hours a day on the internet. I’m not sure losing hours of your life every day to a screen is giving anyone balance. (I’m talking about recreational use, not computer time at work)

I think this is something we need to keep reminding our kids of. Remind them not in a kids these days way, but in a this is the way it works for most people way. They don’t. Necessarily know that.  I lived in a big city HCOL area as a young adult. I happened to have grown up there, but didn’t live with my parents. In my early 20’s I  had 2 roommates for several years until I moved into a tiny studio apartment. I did not own a car. I rarely went out to eat. That was how most of my friends were living. Dh and I did not buy a house until our 30’s. ( and that was not in the city I grew up in) Maybe bc I’m from a HCOL area I see this as normal. Dh and I could never ever afford to live where I grew up now. That makes me sad, but it’s reality and I need to live in reality. We have recently moved to a LCOL area and we love it here. Making it work may mean not living in your dream location or even a preferred location, but you need to accept that. The young need to hear us say and normalize that—not join the media refrain of how awful it is. Many of us Gen X era also graduated into a bad economy. We have also lived through downturns. We need to model acceptance of reality and contentment and courage. 

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think housing expenses are incredibly high compared to incomes and I see why these kids are discouraged, but I don’t think they understand the hours of overtime and drudgery GenXer were willing to put in to pull it off. I also don’t think they quite grasp how much we were willing to lower our living standards to make it work. Many of them cannot imaging living in a less desirable area and never eating out or going out for a few years to make it work. They think they NEED work-life balance in their childless twenties when there’s no better time to work ridiculous hours or go all in with your personal goals. If you are just prioritizing dining out, concert tickets, and travel, that’s perfectly fine but it’s a choice. The sheer amount of physical hustle that existed pre-internet can be viewed as impossible.

This is what a lot of people mean when they talk about entitlement, I think.

That said, my kids may not be able to do the side hustle thing, and I could not (at least not once I had a real job). Some of us are not energetic or physically capable even when young. I did the frugal thing and am still doing it, so my kids at least see that we’re very careful. My kids are both neurodivergent, and they need more downtime than is typical. One has serious medical issues that cause fatigue (and has sleep issues to boot).

I worry about them not having this extra avenue for funds at that stage of life, but they both work hard and make good choices. My older one will probably always be underemployed relative to IQ because of his 2e ASD, but he is choosing/trying a career path in line with what he is good at and enjoys. He has the option for more schooling, but he just does not do well with a job that doesn’t require movement, and college majors that he’d potentially be good at require higher math (clearly math capable but his IQ likely masks a math disability or else his language issues make the instruction too circuitous). The other struggles to make up his mind, but he’s 16, so NBD. 

[kathyl]

nm         

Edited May 30 by kathyl

[Janeway]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:59 PM, Frances said:

Are you talking about your own children? Because this is not at all what I’m seeing in my life. I’m regularly in awe of how hard working, motivated, open to challenges, etc most of the young adults I know are. Not to mention that most are far more accepting of a wide variety of people and ways of doing things, compared to the older generations.

 

On 12/29/2023 at 8:49 PM, Corraleno said:

The "punctuation" tattoo comes from Project Semi-Colon, which was started by a rape survivor whose father committed suicide and who struggled with depression, addiction, and other mental health issues. The organization's slogan is "Your story isn't over," and the tattoo is often used by people who survived assault, severe depression, eating disorders, cutting and other self-harm behaviors, and suicide attempts. It symbolizes that what happened in the past was a pause not an end — that part of their lives ended with a semi-colon, not a period.

Dismissing people who have survived depression, rape, abuse, and suicide attempts as a bunch of entitled twits who are butthurt they haven't been handed everything on a platter and who should avoid therapy and just get over it is pretty insensitive. It comes across like "Back in my day we didn't whine about being raped or wanting to kill ourselves and we didn't need any stupid therapists, we just shut up and got over it" (except of course for the ones who didn't "get over it"). As if that was better or stronger or healthier. 

 

On 12/29/2023 at 8:29 PM, regentrude said:

How many people of that age group do you get to observe closely in person?

Don't y'all feel that there's a lot of doom and gloom on part of the older folks in this thread?

Such a general statement does not mesh with my experience with 20somethings. I am surrounded by college age kids. I talk with a lot of students, and most of them are quite optimistic and proactive.

Yes, there are "survivors" and they are proud of it - survivors of child abuse, of sexual abuse, of chronic illness, of foster care. Of crappy circumstances they are trying to change for the better.

Just this semester alone, I met a girl with a congenital brain malformation who fights tooth and nail for her education; an 18 year old boy who moved all alone from another continent and is navigating an very different culture; a young woman who spent her first sixteen years as an invalid because there was no diagnosis and medication for her mystery condition and who is now about to graduate; a first-generation student from a small rural town who works nights at UPS before heading to class; a young woman who raises a baby with a serious medical condition and is the sweetest, most dedicated student...  For every whiner, I see many more motivated, ambitious kids. I see a lot of determination and hope. "Kids these days" aren't all tiktok watching victims. They design rockets and solar cars for competitions, spend evenings in bio labs, tutor, write poetry, put up fundraisers for the homeless shelter. And have job offers in hand before graduation. I have hope.

Everyone, humans, through all of history, have been through stuff. But the mantra these days is to compete over who is the biggest victim and needing "safe spaces" because they cannot cope. Then their entire identity becomes all about how rough their lives have been. Not everyone from any generation IS whatever it is that their generation has been marked by. The current "thing" in society is creating an entire identity being all about victimhood and ableism. There has always been people who want to sit around and blame everyone else and everything else for their woes. Just that this particular generation coming up right now is particularly marked by this. Quite frankly, this board is not a good sampling of what general society is going through, as an overall or average. I have seen some on this board that think that most of the country is full of wealth that was inherited. That notion floored me. 

I kind of don't care much about the list of the one single parent whose child has a medical condition or the first generation student working their way through school. This is all stuff that was the norm. This was all just what made people. Now days though, it is the thing to harp on, as if they are the first ever to go through this and all past generations has had everything handed to them. I am well aware that there is a particularly large number of people on this board that has had life just handed to them, but THAT is not the norm. I am glad when people jump in and work hard and live their lives. I think it is mind numbing when the 24 yr old has posted another picture in a bikini with her duck mouth or tongue sticking out and tattoos labeling her a victim and claiming she cannot more forward in life because she once had a bad relationship, but it has nothing to do with the fact that she refuses to keep a job because she was asked to work an extra few minutes on day or more than 3 hours on another day. Not everyone of this generation does this and those who do will just eventually either move on or be left behind in life.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

 

 

Everyone, humans, through all of history, have been through stuff. But the mantra these days is to compete over who is the biggest victim and needing "safe spaces" because they cannot cope. Then their entire identity becomes all about how rough their lives have been. Not everyone from any generation IS whatever it is that their generation has been marked by. The current "thing" in society is creating an entire identity being all about victimhood and ableism. There has always been people who want to sit around and blame everyone else and everything else for their woes. Just that this particular generation coming up right now is particularly marked by this. Quite frankly, this board is not a good sampling of what general society is going through, as an overall or average. I have seen some on this board that think that most of the country is full of wealth that was inherited. That notion floored me. 

I kind of don't care much about the list of the one single parent whose child has a medical condition or the first generation student working their way through school. This is all stuff that was the norm. This was all just what made people. Now days though, it is the thing to harp on, as if they are the first ever to go through this and all past generations has had everything handed to them. I am well aware that there is a particularly large number of people on this board that has had life just handed to them, but THAT is not the norm. I am glad when people jump in and work hard and live their lives. I think it is mind numbing when the 24 yr old has posted another picture in a bikini with her duck mouth or tongue sticking out and tattoos labeling her a victim and claiming she cannot more forward in life because she once had a bad relationship, but it has nothing to do with the fact that she refuses to keep a job because she was asked to work an extra few minutes on day or more than 3 hours on another day. Not everyone of this generation does this and those who do will just eventually either move on or be left behind in life.

Where are you getting the information to make your sweeping generalizations both about society in general and this board? Where is the proof that  the “current thing in society is creating and en entire identity being all about victim hood and ableism.” It sounds like something one would hear on right wing talk radio or cable news. If instead you’re relying on social media posts from 24 year olds, then I don’t think you’re understanding how social media works and why people might post outrageous things in order to get clicks and likes.

And who are all of these people on this board who have had life just handed to them? You’ve roused my curiosity about all of these mystery people.

[Frances]

On 12/30/2023 at 9:30 AM, kbutton said:

This is what a lot of people mean when they talk about entitlement, I think.

That said, my kids may not be able to do the side hustle thing, and I could not (at least not once I had a real job). Some of us are not energetic or physically capable even when young. I did the frugal thing and am still doing it, so my kids at least see that we’re very careful. My kids are both neurodivergent, and they need more downtime than is typical. One has serious medical issues that cause fatigue (and has sleep issues to boot).

I worry about them not having this extra avenue for funds at that stage of life, but they both work hard and make good choices. My older one will probably always be underemployed relative to IQ because of his 2e ASD, but he is choosing/trying a career path in line with what he is good at and enjoys. He has the option for more schooling, but he just does not do well with a job that doesn’t require movement, and college majors that he’d potentially be good at require higher math (clearly math capable but his IQ likely masks a math disability or else his language issues make the instruction too circuitous). The other struggles to make up his mind, but he’s 16, so NBD. 

Some of this describes one of my relatives who I’m trying to help. It’s one of the reasons I posted about the appeal of things like co-op housing in another thread. If one can lower living expenses, then additional income isn’t always necessary. For example, my relative would make an amazing roommate for any elderly person with a house. She’s great with older people and is a hard worker who would be happy to clean, run errands, etc, plus she’s a medical professional. She is desperate to get out of her parent’s house (and for her mental health needs to be out), but due to a combo of relatively low wages and bad spending habits, can’t currently afford it. I’m trying to get her to consider alternatives to renting an apartment on her own.

[freesia]

2 hours ago, Janeway said:

 

 

Everyone, humans, through all of history, have been through stuff. But the mantra these days is to compete over who is the biggest victim and needing "safe spaces" because they cannot cope. Then their entire identity becomes all about how rough their lives have been. Not everyone from any generation IS whatever it is that their generation has been marked by. The current "thing" in society is creating an entire identity being all about victimhood and ableism. There has always been people who want to sit around and blame everyone else and everything else for their woes. Just that this particular generation coming up right now is particularly marked by this. Quite frankly, this board is not a good sampling of what general society is going through, as an overall or average. I have seen some on this board that think that most of the country is full of wealth that was inherited. That notion floored me. 

I kind of don't care much about the list of the one single parent whose child has a medical condition or the first generation student working their way through school. This is all stuff that was the norm. This was all just what made people. Now days though, it is the thing to harp on, as if they are the first ever to go through this and all past generations has had everything handed to them. I am well aware that there is a particularly large number of people on this board that has had life just handed to them, but THAT is not the norm. I am glad when people jump in and work hard and live their lives. I think it is mind numbing when the 24 yr old has posted another picture in a bikini with her duck mouth or tongue sticking out and tattoos labeling her a victim and claiming she cannot more forward in life because she once had a bad relationship, but it has nothing to do with the fact that she refuses to keep a job because she was asked to work an extra few minutes on day or more than 3 hours on another day. Not everyone of this generation does this and those who do will just eventually either move on or be left behind in life.

I think those types have always been around. Certainly my 50 year old Sister in law fits the bill—even though she doesn’t post bikini pics. I think social media and the media hype it as a thing. While I do find the situation with the younger teens concerning in terms of how parents are dealing with emotions and boundaries, among the actual young adults I know, I don’t see this. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

 

Everyone, humans, through all of history, have been through stuff. But the mantra these days is to compete over who is the biggest victim and needing "safe spaces" because they cannot cope. Then their entire identity becomes all about how rough their lives have been. Not everyone from any generation IS whatever it is that their generation has been marked by. The current "thing" in society is creating an entire identity being all about victimhood and ableism. There has always been people who want to sit around and blame everyone else and everything else for their woes. Just that this particular generation coming up right now is particularly marked by this. Quite frankly, this board is not a good sampling of what general society is going through, as an overall or average. I have seen some on this board that think that most of the country is full of wealth that was inherited. That notion floored me. 

I kind of don't care much about the list of the one single parent whose child has a medical condition or the first generation student working their way through school. This is all stuff that was the norm. This was all just what made people. Now days though, it is the thing to harp on, as if they are the first ever to go through this and all past generations has had everything handed to them. I am well aware that there is a particularly large number of people on this board that has had life just handed to them, but THAT is not the norm. I am glad when people jump in and work hard and live their lives. I think it is mind numbing when the 24 yr old has posted another picture in a bikini with her duck mouth or tongue sticking out and tattoos labeling her a victim and claiming she cannot more forward in life because she once had a bad relationship, but it has nothing to do with the fact that she refuses to keep a job because she was asked to work an extra few minutes on day or more than 3 hours on another day. Not everyone of this generation does this and those who do will just eventually either move on or be left behind in life.

This is so much BS. This is propaganda spread by certain sectors of the media in order to demonize young people and dismiss their very valid complaints about the way things are heading. You want to dismiss all the stories of young adults working their asses off despite the odds stacked against them, but then take a ridiculous caricature of a 24 yr old influencer in a bikini and generalize it to an entire generation?

The cost of college has increased 8 times faster than wages, and the cost of housing has increased 4 times faster than household income. But we have politicians — who themselves had hundreds of thousands of dollars of PPP loans forgiven — yelling about the whiny entitled babies who were hoping to have 10K of student debt forgiven.

Ask yourself who benefits from demonizing an entire generation of hard-working but angry kids as whiny woke babies who just want everything handed to them. 

[Happy2BaMom]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:54 PM, regentrude said:

Not necessarily- there are markets where rent has forever been crazy high. But owning a house isn't the only worthwhile goal or hallmark of success. In some markets, renting makes more sense financially. 

I agree, *especially* given the condition a not-insignificant percentage of houses are in (or will be in in a certain # of years) in many/most places of the US. Dh & I just spent ungodly amounts of money basically rebuilding (not that we planned on that) our 100-yo farmhouse. Many houses in my area are old(er) and need that kind of input at this point. OTOH, when we were renting near Columbus, OH not that long ago (during a 2-yr stay for DH's job), we lived in a lovely-looking suburban home that was built in the mid-90s. It was a tract home. While it looked nice, it was cheaply built and it would not be a house I would want to own, particularly if I had to pay a steep(er) price for it and was planning to stay in it. It will also need major financial input to keep it truly livable over the long haul.

Dh & I have talked many times about what a financial mess a young couple could be in if they had purchased either house, or the many, many, many others like them.

(side note: not that renting is that great...I totally get the desire to have some financial security. Unfortunately, the older generations have pushed seemingly an unfair amount onto the younger ones in terms of financial upkeep on houses, systems, etc).

[freesia]

Just now, Corraleno said:

This is so much BS. This is propaganda spread by certain sectors of the media in order to demonize young people and dismiss their very valid complaints about the way things are heading. You want to dismiss all the stories of young adults working their asses off despite the odds stacked against them, but then take a ridiculous caricature of a 24 yr old influencer in a bikini and generalize it to an entire generation?

The cost of college has increased 8 times faster than wages, and the cost of housing has increased 4 times faster than household income. But we have politicians — who themselves had hundreds of thousands of dollars of PPP loans forgiven — yelling about the whiny entitled babies who were hoping to have 10K of student debt forgiven.

Ask yourself who benefits from demonizing an entire generation of hard-working but angry kids as whiny woke babies who just want everything handed to them. 

Yes. Among my 23 year old ds’s friends:he just paid off his school loans living frugally, two of his friends have just saved enough to buy houses, one moved jobs and to home to pay off his loan more quickly. Only one friend that I can think of is spinning her wheels and she has pretty severe ADHD. She is trying, her parents are supporting her and progress is being made. I see no laziness around me—lots of hustling to make things work and be responsible. I see this among the many millennials in our church—many are struggling under financial issues, but all I see is creativity and a ton of hustling and side jobs. Honestly, most of these families are working and hustling more than I ever did. I don’t think there are very many of these victim/woke/safe space slackers around. I think they get clicks and outrage. 

[Pawz4me]

18 minutes ago, Frances said:

 

And who are all of these people on this board who have had life just handed to them? You’ve roused my curiosity about all of these mystery people.

I'm pretty sure she's misconstruing (or perhaps she legitimately misunderstood) the thread where inheriting was discussed. As I recall some of us pointed out that it's not exactly unusual for people to inherit something from their parents or grandparents. I don't recall anyone insisting that "most" people had done so. As most of us understand, there's a lot of territory between "not unusual" and "most." But I'm also going on my own recollection, which I admit could be wrong.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Pawz4me

[Katy]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:48 PM, teachermom2834 said:

My point is just that if dh and I had followed his advice and not bought a house until we were out of debt and had a big down payment and an emergency fund and only had a mortgage that was 25%  of our take home pay for a 15 year mortgage we would not be where we are today. And while I get the fiscally conservative advice I am also glad I didn’t follow it. 
 

So…this isn’t Dave Ramsey specific it is just an observation that based on my own life we did better to just take some leaps rather than listen to all the expert advice. And our young people are just bombarded by influencers and advice in a way that dh and I were not. And that is a mixed bag.

But even DR says his advice isn’t for most people. It’s for the people who are stupid about money and addicted to spending. His program can stop that. But his investment advice is TERRIBLE and is directly designed to make him more money and cost his listeners thousands in fees. Thousands becomes hundreds of millions at that volume. 

The advice on Reddit’s FIRE boards is far more practical. 

[Terabith]

Just want to point out that you literally can’t work an extra job in most places because almost all employers require 24/7 availability and will not work with you on hours for another job. 

[frogger]

I see a lot of hustle among my teens and friends but I also do see high expectations of work/life balance etc among others in extended family etc.

Gen Z isn't homogenous anymore than any other generation. There are both extremes and a few moderates.

I am working locally to get our local government to allow for more and varied housing and better public transit. If we could lower the cost of housing and healthcare (in both time and mental energy and $$$) the younger generations would probably be much better off regardless of where they are on the stress hustle scale. 

[regentrude]

10 hours ago, Janeway said:

 I am well aware that there is a particularly large number of people on this board that has had life just handed to them, but THAT is not the norm. 

Huh? Where on earth did that come from? Sounds pretty insulting.

[Scarlett]

11 hours ago, Frances said:

Some of this describes one of my relatives who I’m trying to help. It’s one of the reasons I posted about the appeal of things like co-op housing in another thread. If one can lower living expenses, then additional income isn’t always necessary. For example, my relative would make an amazing roommate for any elderly person with a house. She’s great with older people and is a hard worker who would be happy to clean, run errands, etc, plus she’s a medical professional. She is desperate to get out of her parent’s house (and for her mental health needs to be out), but due to a combo of relatively low wages and bad spending habits, can’t currently afford it. I’m trying to get her to consider alternatives to renting an apartment on her own.

I hope she finds a situation like my young friend! 

[katilac]

On 12/31/2023 at 9:39 AM, Janeway said:

I am well aware that there is a particularly large number of people on this board that has had life just handed to them, but THAT is not the norm.  

What the what now?? 🤣

How did you arrive at this conclusion? 

[KungFuPanda]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

What the what now?? 🤣

How did you arrive at this conclusion? 

I’m glad you asked. I was wondering the same thing. 

[Faith-manor]

On 12/31/2023 at 12:55 PM, Corraleno said:

This is so much BS. This is propaganda spread by certain sectors of the media in order to demonize young people and dismiss their very valid complaints about the way things are heading. You want to dismiss all the stories of young adults working their asses off despite the odds stacked against them, but then take a ridiculous caricature of a 24 yr old influencer in a bikini and generalize it to an entire generation?

The cost of college has increased 8 times faster than wages, and the cost of housing has increased 4 times faster than household income. But we have politicians — who themselves had hundreds of thousands of dollars of PPP loans forgiven — yelling about the whiny entitled babies who were hoping to have 10K of student debt forgiven.

Ask yourself who benefits from demonizing an entire generation of hard-working but angry kids as whiny woke babies who just want everything handed to them. 

100% spot on.

[Laura Corin]

On 12/31/2023 at 11:13 PM, Terabith said:

Just want to point out that you literally can’t work an extra job in most places because almost all employers require 24/7 availability and will not work with you on hours for another job. 

Yes. 'Hobbes' is working retail whilst looking for a graduate job. He was offered a job at a toy shop chain that guaranteed 6 hours a week but suggested that he would probably average 20 hours. He asked for regular days or times off so that he could get a second job. The store said that the job counted as full time and there could be no set schedule.  

He called us for advice and was luckily offered another job that guaranteed 24 hours a week with weekends free, which he took. He has picked up lots of overtime during Christmas and is now looking for a second job. He lives in a big city and post-Brexit/pandemic there is a shortage of staff, so he was able to be picky.

He wrote a polite email explaining why he could not take the first job, but I would bet the manager still rants about not being able to get good, experienced staff. Hobbes said that the toy shop interview was very perfunctory,  which suggests high staff turnover and little care for staff or customers. 

[Terabith]

Many employers will only schedule people for 39 hours a week, so they can be denied benefits, even if they are promised full time employment.  
 

Late stage capitalism hates employees. 

[Pawz4me]

55 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Many employers will only schedule people for 39 hours a week, so they can be denied benefits, even if they are promised full time employment.  
 

Late stage capitalism hates employees. 

I believe under the ACA 30 hours a week is considered full time and requires employer provided health insurance. But I could be wrong. 

[Faith-manor]

47 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Many employers will only schedule people for 39 hours a week, so they can be denied benefits, even if they are promised full time employment.  
 

Late stage capitalism hates employees. 

Hate is a good word for it. I also feel there is some sort of capitalist notion that any business is OWED employees, and when the pathetic terms the business offers are rejected, they feel like their rights have been violated. It is really just bizarre and very concerning.

Middle ds is working a Sam's Club job part time while in grad school. The manager refuses to post the schedule for the week, which he runs as Monday-Sunday, until midnight Monday morning. He expects employees to stay up until midnight to find out if they are supposed to be at work that morning, and Monday morning for stockers and openers is 6 am start of shift. Twice ds has gone to bed so he could be properly rested, and then didn't find out he was supposed to work Monday. His boss was furious. He told him to stuff it, and reminded him that retail jobs are a dime a dozen so it isn't like he can't go to work somewhere else. Three times the dolt, who knows ds's grad school schedule, has tried to make him work when he is supposed to be on campus, and again, ds has shrugged him off. So far he has not been fired because that place is desperate for employees, and can't keep them. (Well duh!!!!!!🙄) 

I swear management thinks they are the lords of the land, and employees are their serfs.

I can't wait for both of my sons to get through grad school and find employment in their respective fields.

I also feel that we need a wake up call as a nation, and especially as consumers about how abused many folks are in order for us to have our convenience.

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I believe under the ACA 30 hours a week is considered full time and requires employer provided health insurance. But I could be wrong. 

That is only for businesses employing 50 people or more. So one of the things we see locally is that businesses will employ more than 50, but schedule everyone 29.5. This way they never have to offer insurance. They also do not offer any sick days, paid vacation days, or anything else. Many full time jobs of the past are filled by two part time people. It is also another excuse to keep wages low. If everyone is part time, then that is just one more reason that no pay raises are ever forth coming.

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Many employers will only schedule people for 39 hours a week, so they can be denied benefits, even if they are promised full time employment.  
 

Late stage capitalism hates employees. 

Every Gen Z kid (young adult) that I know would die for 30-39 hours a week, at any pay rate.  They’re all lucky to get scheduled 15 hours a week. Talking about them needing to work overtime is a literal joke when 10 hours a week is the norm.   
 

We’re so conditioned to blame the individual but the problem is clearly the employers. 

Edited January 2 by Heartstrings

[Heartstrings]

On 12/31/2023 at 5:13 PM, Terabith said:

Just want to point out that you literally can’t work an extra job in most places because almost all employers require 24/7 availability and will not work with you on hours for another job. 

They won’t even work around college.  If you have ANYTHING other than fully open availability most places won’t even interview you.  This is at places most would think of as being good places for college kids to work like a movie theater or store in the mall.  

[Corraleno]

When DD worked retail (clothing store in the mall), they kept everyone well under 30 hrs, plus schedules were posted the night before, and then they rarely followed the schedule anyway. She had to resort to doing Instacart & Door Dash for extra income, because there was no way to have a second job with how random and last-minute the retail schedule was. She would constantly get called in for just 2-3 hours, or she'd be asked to open for one hour, then come back an hour before closing and close out. Add nasty managers jerking them around plus obnoxious customers (including sexual harassment from creepy men), and it was just not worth the misery for 15-20 hours/week. They had incredibly high turnover and I'm sure the manager whined about all the lazy entitled "kids these days" with no work ethic.

And yet when my "lazy, entitled" kid left there, she got a full time job working the 3 AM shift in a warehouse, and the managers there loved her because she was always on time, would volunteer to stay late when they had an unusually heavy workload, and could outwork many of her middle-aged male coworkers. She left that job in September to start full-time classes, but they told her she could come back any time she wanted, even for short stints, so she's been working there again over winter break. No duck-face bikini photos or claims of being a victim, she just works her butt off and studies hard and is trying to make a good life for herself — just like 99% of the other young adults I know.

Edited January 2 by Corraleno

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

She had to resort to doing Instacart & Door Dash for extra income, because there was no way to have a second job with how random and last-minute the retail schedule was

All of those have waiting lists to start working where I am.  Every single one.  They have so many people doing them that they aren’t taking new people.  I was just floored when I found that out.  

It doesn’t mesh well with the idea that  “no one wants to work” or “kids these days have no hussle”.   

[Corraleno]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

All of those have waiting lists to start working where I am.  Every single one.  They have so many people doing them that they aren’t taking new people.  I was just floored when I found that out.  

And those are really crappy jobs for low pay! So many people are just jerks, it was really common for customers to place an order promising a large tip, and then take the tip away once the order was delivered. Sometimes people would claim the food was tampered with or they never received it so they'd get it for free, and then DD would get a mark against her account in addition to getting stiffed for a tip. The last straw was when a woman placed a $60 Sephora order + $20 tip, DD delivered it, and then the woman claimed she never received it so she got it for free and DD got totally screwed.

Plus when she sat down and did the math, looking at the cost of gas plus wear and tear on the car, she really wasn't making much at all. But it was also the only option for additional income when she never knew when (or if) she'd be scheduled for the mall job.

[Sneezyone]

For high school and college kids with math skills, there are some good options. In part b/c of COVID learning loss, a lot of Mathnasium and Kumon centers are in desperate need of employees. They pay decent wages and are only open when K-12 kids are out of school (evenings and weekends). I agree with the typical teen job roulette wheel tho. DD almost immediately left a grocery chain to work at a restaurant while in high school because the pay was so much better and the scheduling more reliable.

[frogger]

Just curious if anyone has knowledge of house cleaning jobs. I have seen $20-$35 an hour. I am curious if that is eaten up by travel as you only actually work a couple hours here and there. If you add in travel time do you end up in the low wage category again?  I know people who make decent money but they are typically working for connections (friends or family that have air b&bs, etc.). They do it between classes for school etc but it might be one of those things where you make the most if you know someone rather then going through a service of some type. 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, frogger said:

Just curious if anyone has knowledge of house cleaning jobs. I have seen $20-$35 an hour. I am curious if that is eaten up by travel as you only actually work a couple hours here and there. If you add in travel time do you end up in the low wage category again?  I know people who make decent money but they are typically working for connections (friends or family that have air b&bs, etc.). They do it between classes for school etc but it might be one of those things where you make the most if you know someone rather then going through a service of some type. 

Not direct knowledge, but I live in an area with a lot of services/jobs posted on social media. 
It’s typically lower pay per hour through a service, but more steady work and less overhead if an actual employee.

1099 through a service or independently needs to hold back more for taxes and should really at least be bonded.  
We’re kind of flooded with established services here, so it can be hard for independents to find clients at a good pay rate.

[KSera]

On 1/2/2024 at 8:38 AM, Heartstrings said:

Every Gen Z kid (young adult) that I know would die for 30-39 hours a week, at any pay rate.  They’re all lucky to get scheduled 15 hours a week. Talking about them needing to work overtime is a literal joke when 10 hours a week is the norm.   

Yes. The pattern with mine has been they get good hours the first few weeks after they start, and then gradually get less and less (all while being told what excellent employees they are, so it’s not a matter of job performance—everyone they work with has the same issue with hours going steadily down). Yet still I hear all around about the problem being that young people aren’t willing to work and just want things handed to them. 

1 hour ago, frogger said:

Just curious if anyone has knowledge of house cleaning jobs. I have seen $20-$35 an hour. I am curious if that is eaten up by travel as you only actually work a couple hours here and there. If you add in travel time do you end up in the low wage category again?  I know people who make decent money but they are typically working for connections (friends or family that have air b&bs, etc.). They do it between classes for school etc but it might be one of those things where you make the most if you know someone rather then going through a service of some type. 

People who clean independently typically make way more than those working for services. They have the overhead of buying their own supplies and paying taxes, but still come out much better. The services I’m familiar with keep the lion’s share and employees aren’t well paid. A lot of driving back and forth across the service area, which didn’t end up being paid, even though they said when hiring that travel time was covered. They would have people meet somewhere near the house to be cleaned and THEN start the clock for travel time. Sometimes the meeting place was a longer drive than going straight to the house to be cleaned would have been. Some companies are better than others though. 

[Frances]

18 minutes ago, KSera said:

People who clean independently typically make way more than those working for services. They have the overhead of buying their own supplies and paying taxes, but still come out much better. The services I’m familiar with keep the lion’s share and employees aren’t well paid. A lot of driving back and forth across the service area, which didn’t end up being paid, even though they said when hiring that travel time was covered. They would have people meet somewhere near the house to be cleaned and THEN start the clock for travel time. Sometimes the meeting place was a longer drive than going straight to the house to be cleaned would have been. Some companies are better than others though. 

They don’t necessarily need their own supplies though. Many people are like us and prefer to hire an independent cleaner and provide the supplies. I think almost all of my neighbors who use cleaners are similar. When we were shopping for a new vacuum cleaner, the salesperson said she is always surprised by people being ok with a vacuum being used in their house and many others.

One need I see locally is transport for seniors. I know several elderly people who would love to have a young adult they could call and pay for transportation to appointments and shopping. While they know about things like Uber, they’d rather have the same person consistently.

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

They don’t necessarily need their own supplies though. Many people are like us and prefer to hire an independent cleaner and provide the supplies. I think almost all of my neighbors who use cleaners are similar. When we were shopping for a new vacuum cleaner, the salesperson said she is always surprised by people being ok with a vacuum being used in their house and many others.

Yeah, I would have a hard time with that as well (shared germs/bacteria I mean). Back when we had cleaning help for awhile, the tax advice we received was that making sure they bring their own supplies was important for establishing that you’re working with an independent contractor and not hiring an employee (in which case we would be the one needing to take care of all the tax withholding, which sounds complicated enough it wouldn’t have been worth it for us). 

[Condessa]

I can't comment on young adults, but the victim mentality among teens in our area is something my dd has brought up a number of times about girls at her high school.  Not in those words, but she is frustrated that "the thing" for many of her peers is to have problems/issues/unique challenges and complain about them endlessly.  She says that they will cycle through different problems and issues, and a new problem will be trendy every few months.  At one point it was transgenderism, and many of the girls decided they were transgender, but several months later they had all changed their minds and the trending issue was depression.  Then it was homosexuality, then asexuality, then anxiety.  Each of these fads have gone through her peer group in the last year and a half.  None of them included actual diagnoses.  And girls who don't participate in the complaining about the current trending issue have been mocked for being "so perfect" and for having "such an easy life".  

[Frances]

5 hours ago, Condessa said:

I can't comment on young adults, but the victim mentality among teens in our area is something my dd has brought up a number of times about girls at her high school.  Not in those words, but she is frustrated that "the thing" for many of her peers is to have problems/issues/unique challenges and complain about them endlessly.  She says that they will cycle through different problems and issues, and a new problem will be trendy every few months.  At one point it was transgenderism, and many of the girls decided they were transgender, but several months later they had all changed their minds and the trending issue was depression.  Then it was homosexuality, then asexuality, then anxiety.  Each of these fads have gone through her peer group in the last year and a half.  None of them included actual diagnoses.  And girls who don't participate in the complaining about the current trending issue have been mocked for being "so perfect" and for having "such an easy life".  

I’m not sure being homosexual is a problem/issue/unique challenge unless one also considers being heterosexual as such.

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

I’m not sure being homosexual is a problem/issue/unique challenge unless one also considers being heterosexual as such.

You don't get bullied or threatened or kicked out of the house for being hetero.

[Frances]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:45 PM, regentrude said:

You don't get bullied or threatened or kicked out of the house for being hetero.

 

Edited January 6 by Frances

[Condessa]

12 hours ago, Frances said:

I’m not sure being homosexual is a problem/issue/unique challenge unless one also considers being heterosexual as such.

 

10 hours ago, Frances said:

But that doesn’t happen to many who are not heterosexual. I just find it troubling that not being straight is automatically assumed to be an issue/problem/unique challenge. I certainly don’t think my son approached it that way or found it to be the case. In fact, if you asked him, I think he would say that overall it was easier, at least in comparison to his friends who were straight. Now granted he was lucky enough to be born into an accepting family, grew up in a pretty liberal area, and was not part of any religion that considered it sinful, and I know many kids are not that fortunate. But I still don’t think the default position should be that it’s an issue or problem. It’s just one part of who someone is, the same as being heterosexual is.

 

These kids certainly treated it like a unique challenge that made them different, that no one understood what they were going through, oh how would their families react, the world is just designed to be set up against people like them, etc.  Until it became old hat and they switched to a new "problem" that they perceive as something that makes them have a uniquely difficult life.

[KungFuPanda]

On 1/5/2024 at 12:58 AM, Frances said:

But that doesn’t happen to many who are not heterosexual. I just find it troubling that not being straight is automatically assumed to be an issue/problem/unique challenge. I certainly don’t think my son approached it that way or found it to be the case. In fact, if you asked him, I think he would say that overall it was easier, at least in comparison to his friends who were straight. Now granted he was lucky enough to be born into an accepting family, grew up in a pretty liberal area, and was not part of any religion that considered it sinful, and I know many kids are not that fortunate. But I still don’t think the default position should be that it’s an issue or problem. It’s just one part of who someone is, the same as being heterosexual is.

I think you missed the point entirely. It seems these kids are exploring all types of identities, which is normal for teens, but they’re cycling through them as a group and deciding that they are oppressed because of this identity they assumed for a season. Nobody suggested that wonderful groups of well-adjusted gay teens isn’t the norm. 
 

Group support is great when it enriches your life and furthers your goals. Some groups, however, are less positive and bring you down. That’s not a toxic positivity thing. It’s a thing where the company you keep matters and can encourage or stunt your personal growth. It’s about learning to form healthy relationships with your peers.