S/O parenting these kids (or “kids”) these days

[Carrie12345]

I think it all ties in, but I didn’t want to totally derail.

25yo ds (w/ what I’m guessing is level 1 autism these days? Childhood Asperger’s dx) did NOT like our conversation last night.   20yo dd was present. Both are struggling to find their way as young adults with varying degrees of success. *My* definition of “success” in this particular context is degree of effort toward goals of whatever kind.

Both have rather negative views of their future success in let’s say traditional measurement. Economic, social, political, etc. I can’t blame them. So dh and I steered a light conversation toward mindset, goals, planning, etc. Dd started out contributing, but escaped to her room when the rest of us started trying to break down a brick wall with our heads.

ANYWAY, ds is really trapped in a victim mindset with the combination of world/generational circumstances plus neurodivergence. That includes blaming being labeled as a gifted child. There was a whole lot of “nobody can understand” despite the fact that dh, dd, and I can very much relate closely to, though obviously not 100% each,  as we’re 4 different individuals but with many overlapping experiences. And while we can try to put ourselves in his shoes, he isn’t as able to recognize the similarities.

ANYWAY-ANYWAY, I’ve asked him to seek out therapy to help work through this negative mindset and open himself to finding some drive. He’s not an anti-therapy guy, but he doesn’t have a lot of follow through, so who knows?

I feel like this… ennui? Stuckness? Negativity? Big picture reality vs. individual possibility? is a common young adult thing, with or without neurological brain differences. Dd20 has been struggling with this for years, but is currently making slow but measurable progress toward important goals. Dd21 is also very “the world sucks and I’m never going to get the American Dream” but she’s ferocious and busts her hump to make a life for herself.

All 3 have DSM dxes, and the girls were practically raised as twins, so the differences in attitude are kind of astounding. Ds, however, was raised across two households with very different values.

I’m not entirely sure what I’m trying to get at. Maybe I’m still processing. I’m worried that 3 of my 5 kids (the third being my 16yo) don’t really “get” the power of mindset + effort. The other two have the ability to be cranky, negative, complainy people (believe me, they’re emotional handfuls!) and then turn around and do what they’ve got to do to get what they want. I acknowledge that they got the poop end of the societal stick, but one (especially ones with resources and parental support) must move forward at some point.

How does one nudge these young people without breaking them???

 

(Background: 25yo has lived w/bio dad far away for around 5 years and was parentified. His teen years were split between two households. He currently works a little bit from home and schools a little bit from home for a degree that will be hard to pay off. Our alternative suggestions were seen as negative judgment. He’s a terrific and interesting young man. But the young is running out!)

[Rosie_0801]

I suspect the nudge has to come from someone who isn't one of his adults.

I wish I knew how to work that magic. A loved one (not my kid) is toying with the idea of having another go at adulting after sitting in his room for two years, and he'll turn 27 next week.

[Laura Corin]

What I see with the young people around me is a) a realisation that the world has changed and e.g. home ownership may be impossible, b) a willingness to follow their own goals that may not fit clearly within my generation's criteria.  These might include working enough to support themselves but prioritising personal relationships and interests.

[Carrie12345]

47 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I suspect the nudge has to come from someone who isn't one of his adults.

I wish I knew how to work that magic. A loved one (not my kid) is toying with the idea of having another go at adulting after sitting in his room for two years, and he'll turn 27 next week.

I never like that I can’t like your posts!

44 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

What I see with the young people around me is a) a realisation that the world has changed and e.g. home ownership may be impossible, b) a willingness to follow their own goals that may not fit clearly within my generation's criteria.  These might include working enough to support themselves but prioritising personal relationships and interests.

With ds, I fear he won’t be able to support himself with his current mindset. Dh and I have intentionally positioned ourselves to make sure our kids always have a soft backup, but it’s definitely not meant to be their Plan A. We won’t always be here, and our “estate” split 5 ways isn’t going to get any of them through life, lol. 
I worry about my other kids too, but they are/show signs of supporting themselves despite big challenges, and by means that they find rewarding. For ds, that may be where a big part of the difficulty is. His interests don’t align with many jobs/careers and his patience for uninteresting labor is close to zilch. On one hand, isn’t everyone’s? On the other, everyone has to eat.   
(And he is not of the Grow Your Own Food type, literally or metaphorically.)

[Ginevra]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

His interests don’t align with many jobs/careers and his patience for uninteresting labor is close to zilch. On one hand, isn’t everyone’s? On the other, everyone has to eat.   
(And he is not of the Grow Your Own Food type, literally or metaphorically.)

I see this with one of my YAs (though they are making their way). This kiddo at one time worked in fast food like millions of teens and then, a couple years ago, was all, “Ugh! I *cannot* work one more minute in food service again!” And I, saying nothing, thought, “Well…unless you have to anyway!” 
 

I have told my YAs that I think their generation has much more of a belief that their perfect work-life balance job/side hustle is just waiting for them to stumble onto it. In contrast to my generation, much more informed by It’s a Wonderful Life - you do what you’ve gotta do. It bugs me that one of my YAs is not really putting their prodigious mental power behind making money and building career, at least, not at the moment. I feel like it’s a waste of opportunity. I want to say, “This is *the time* when it’s easiest to make that progress! No kids! No mortgage! No huge responsibilities!,” yet I know that would be as welcome as a hair in the macaroni salad. I think some of it is what the wider culture has “told” them. Tim Ferris/4-hr workweek and Instagram influencer culture. Like, “Don’t settle for the grind of a 40-50 hr office job! Find your digital nomad dream and live in a van!” *rolleyes* 

[teachermom2834]

My 3 young adult men are super hard workers and making their way. They are really scrappy and frugal and I think to some degree they feel mildly traumatized by not having alot growing up and are determined to do better. So they aren’t in the particular funk many of you are discussing. 
 

However, I think the negativity of messaging and doom and gloom about the future takes such a toll. My 25 yo and his girlfriend make really good money for their ages. They are both on the partner tracks at their firm and don’t live together but combined they make probably $250,000 already and their earnings are about to really take off. The other night sitting here he said something about never being able to afford to own a home. Thats just not true. Home ownership has gotten more difficult, for sure, but he and his girlfriend, if they marry or combine households, can absolutely own a home. They don’t live in California. So if my very balanced and successful and mentally healthy young adult is allowing that kind of thinking to creep in I can only imagine how hopeless things feel to regular young people still searching or who make normal incomes for young people. 
 

I struggle to balance the reality of it being so much harder for this generation (my dh and I had nothing when we married and had kids right away but our rent was also $290) with optimism and encouragement. It doesn’t do any good to just tell them they can do it because we did it but getting down in the doom and gloom is counter productive as well. 

[HomeAgain]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

With ds, I fear he won’t be able to support himself with his current mindset. Dh and I have intentionally positioned ourselves to make sure our kids always have a soft backup, but it’s definitely not meant to be their Plan A. We won’t always be here, and our “estate” split 5 ways isn’t going to get any of them through life, lol. 
I worry about my other kids too, but they are/show signs of supporting themselves despite big challenges, and by means that they find rewarding. For ds, that may be where a big part of the difficulty is. His interests don’t align with many jobs/careers and his patience for uninteresting labor is close to zilch. On one hand, isn’t everyone’s? On the other, everyone has to eat.   
(And he is not of the Grow Your Own Food type, literally or metaphorically.)

I think you're doing all you can, really.  Keep steering the conversation toward personal growth and don't let the negativity take it over.  Kids have to branch out and see how they're connecting to others.

FWIW, I tell my kids to find a job they're good at, not necessarily one they're interested in.  We can be good at a lot of things, and skill confidence brings in interest.  But we save our true interests for hobbies and downtime.  Oldest ds lucked into finding a career after a while that is interesting enough to him (I'd pluck my eyes out) and offers growth. 

[Katy]

I’d push them towards the FIRE Reddit, and encourage them to read the books recommended there. The economy has made it more difficult, but it’s not impossible to choose a higher paying field, work, live frugally, and still do better than your parents. 

I have two nephews in their 20’s who lived at home, saved every dollar, and managed to buy trucks and starter homes in 3-5 years, without spouses. It helped that they’re in a medium cost of living area (Florida), and that their parents let them live at home as long as they saved money. 

When they got full time jobs they went in and talked to their banker about what they needed to do to qualify for mortgages.  A banker, not a dude on TikTok. The banker said they needed to build credit. They deposited a few thousand in an account they could access for a few years, where the money went to automatic payments towards a secured loan. They also got one credit card, which they used for gas and groceries, and paid off every month. And put money in an IRA every month. After 6 months they qualified for a car loan. At 3 years they qualified for a mortgage with a large down payment, a first time homebuyer’s credit, and they both still had over $10k in the bank for emergencies. 

Neither finished college. They both chose the (hardest), highest-paying construction jobs in their area, and their parents were both willing to let them live at home in exchange for $200/month towards groceries and showing them their bank account balances were growing each month. 

[Bambam]

One of mine was in a holding pattern, she has so much potential and also so many interests/abilities it is hard to choose/and has trouble focusing/deciding what direction to actually go (because the holding pattern was okay - no real reason to push/change/make decisions). Then a younger sibling was working on masters decree (that was was driven by her interests which correspond nicely with a very profitable career path), and I think that sorta kick-started older into thinking. And then she became stuck in a decision which way to go (choice of schools - masters/PhD/etc), and to me the answer was pretty obvious, but much of her issue seemed to be that now she felt 'behind' because younger sister was 'ahead' of her. I pointed out you cannot undo/redo past so forget it, and you just have to make best decision for now and go forward. To my intense surprise, she actually listened to this, agreed with me (WOW!!! so heart warming!!!), and decided that this was correct - you cannot do anything about past decisions, so you just move forward from where you are now.  So, the 'push' to do something I think really came from the slightly (okay more than slightly) competitive nature with sister, and sister provided that push without being aware that she was doing so. 

I see other young adults struggling to decide/move forward/make a plan/etc. Some get stuck in that loop for years, others come unstuck/focused when very interesting attractive potential mate shows up, some just find that job/opportunity that seems to lead to a plan. 

But it is hard. I'm glad my oldest found the motivation from her younger sister's path, but that was just luck in many many ways. 

[Eos]

39 minutes ago, Bambam said:

young adults struggling to decide/move forward/make a plan/etc. Some get stuck in that loop for years, others come unstuck/focused when very interesting attractive potential mate shows up,

Hmmm, I think that younger ds might be doing the opposite of this: he seemed to be on more of a track and then interesting, attractive potential mate showed up and he seems to have lost all motivation to do anything other than just hang out with her.  She is an artist and follows a philosophy of prioritizing "rest" that she thinks is very radical but looks like some classic slackerism to this gen x mama ... 

Oldest ds set out to not live so close to the margin as we did when he was young and so designed his life to be as different from my and dh's as he could. But he was one of only a few engineers in his graduating class to get a job right out of college after the recession so it's been easier for him than other young people of his cohort.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Eos

[Carrie12345]

59 minutes ago, Katy said:

I’d push them towards the FIRE Reddit, and encourage them to read the books recommended there. The economy has made it more difficult, but it’s not impossible to choose a higher paying field, work, live frugally, and still do better than your parents. 

I have two nephews in their 20’s who lived at home, saved every dollar, and managed to buy trucks and starter homes in 3-5 years, without spouses. It helped that they’re in a medium cost of living area (Florida), and that their parents let them live at home as long as they saved money. 

When they got full time jobs they went in and talked to their banker about what they needed to do to qualify for mortgages.  A banker, not a dude on TikTok. The banker said they needed to build credit. They deposited a few thousand in an account they could access for a few years, where the money went to automatic payments towards a secured loan. They also got one credit card, which they used for gas and groceries, and paid off every month. And put money in an IRA every month. After 6 months they qualified for a car loan. At 3 years they qualified for a mortgage with a large down payment, a first time homebuyer’s credit, and they both still had over $10k in the bank for emergencies. 

Neither finished college. They both chose the (hardest), highest-paying construction jobs in their area, and their parents were both willing to let them live at home in exchange for $200/month towards groceries and showing them their bank account balances were growing each month. 

My adult kids all have impeccable credit since we added them to some of our cards after finally getting ours squeaky clean. 21yo is worried about how much worse pricing may be by the time she has enough savings, 20yo is currently convinced she’ll have a mini-farm in 5 years (??? She and her SO are both currently working on their educations and working sporadically), but 25yo has nearly no savings after time “in between jobs”. It makes my tummy hurt.

All have been given very highly rated (by others and by me) financial books. All are skeptical. 🫤 

[Katy]

19 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

My adult kids all have impeccable credit since we added them to some of our cards after finally getting ours squeaky clean. 21yo is worried about how much worse pricing may be by the time she has enough savings, 20yo is currently convinced she’ll have a mini-farm in 5 years (??? She and her SO are both currently working on their educations and working sporadically), but 25yo has nearly no savings after time “in between jobs”. It makes my tummy hurt.

All have been given very highly rated (by others and by me) financial books. All are skeptical. 🫤 

I’d still recommend they talk to a banker, because they probably need a credit history with a mix of credit types in order to qualify for a mortgage. The boys needed a bank loan and a car loan at their bank, in addition to a credit card. 
 

I know a couple who did buy a farm shortly after getting married. They still had full time jobs. I think he did some kind of truck driving and she worked for Farm Bureau or something like that. Helping with crop insurance. They didn’t have enough for a down payment for property but they talked to every farmer they knew. Through networking, they found a farmer whose kids didn’t want to farm, and they leased the land and the house from him for a few years. I don’t remember the terms, but they set it up through their lawyer so the owner got a portion of the profits, and that lowered the balance owed on the land over several years until the land was 30% undervalued and then they could qualify for a loan as if they had a 30% down payment. I’m sure it’s complicated and involved lawyers and incorporation because it wasn’t a mini farm, it was a farm in Iowa, which is probably worth more than a million today. But crop formers often work full time jobs AND farm too. 

[BusyMom5]

It's not just young adults- I think there is way too much gloom and doom on the internet.   I've told my 18-20 year Olds to pick a career and get started.  The key is to just move forward, not stagnate at one place.  Everyone will move forward at a different pace, but they need to be moving forward.  One was wanting to rent in a HCOL area, stressing about the cost of an apartment and never being able to buy.  I told her she was being ridiculous.   Yes, rent is high, but this is temporary.  We built right at the housing bust in 2008.  Lots of my friends did, too.  You just make it work!  

[Eos]

6 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

rent is high, but this is temporary. 

I'll be curious to see if this is true. 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, BusyMom5 said:

 One was wanting to rent in a HCOL area, stressing about the cost of an apartment and never being able to buy.  I told her she was being ridiculous.   Yes, rent is high, but this is temporary.  We built right at the housing bust in 2008.  Lots of my friends did, too.  You just make it work!  

Not necessarily- there are markets where rent has forever been crazy high. But owning a house isn't the only worthwhile goal or hallmark of success. In some markets, renting makes more sense financially. 

[SKL]

That age group was when I realized how much I'd need to earn in order to pay all of my bills.  On one hand, I had mounting student loans with high interest, and I hadn't realized how much it would add up until I was halfway through grad school.  On the other hand, my confidence level for getting a job that would pay that much after tax was about zero.  It was a truly scary time.

Well, apparently it all worked out.  It wasn't easy, but here I am on the other side of debt.  😛

For young folks these days, I would take the following from my experience:

• A grown-up understanding of personal finance may not come until late adolescence, even for NT individuals.
• Keep options open.  Be creative.  Don't burn bridges.  Share and collaborate.  Don't be too proud to admit you can't do it alone right now.
• The world isn't going to let you starve to death.
• Every dollar you spend on unnecessary stuff is pushing your goal farther out.  Every dollar you save makes your goal more possible.
• As a parent, my house is open as long as my kids need it, so they can save for a stronger start.  BUT this requires that they know how to act in my house.
• Owning your own awesome house doesn't have to be a goal in order for you to be a success.

None of that touches employment success much.  But, I think that if young people could just focus on being their best vs. making enough money, that would go pretty far in preparing them to eventually make enough money.  And they would probably pick up good friends, connections, and ideas along the way.

[bookbard]

I don't think it's 'kids these days' - I was the same in my 20s. Had no aspirations to buy a house, was quite sure work would fall my way forever and I'd write the great Australian novel and be rich. By 30 I owned nothing, not a car, not a bike lol! Everyone is different - my 2 sisters were married and babies in early 20s - but I wasn't ready for anything till 30s. I did however have my degree and lots of varied experience in my field (and very low living costs, not drinking/smoking/having expensive tastes). I am going to do whatever I can to ensure my kids have a marketable degree of some sort in something they're interested in. But if they're like me, they might job hop and do all sorts of weird things in their 20s. If they have to return home a few times, well we've got the back shed they can live in if necessary! 

[Sneezyone]

My YA is champing at the bit to be a fully independent adult, is dating one, and feels behind as a non-self supporting collegian. She called during finals week panicked that she’d be broke and homeless unless she could transfer to an eng program ASAP. We’ve had a lot of talks over this break in re: being fully independent at 19 is also, often, a trauma response and leaning on her resources and parents to help nav/achieve goals while in school is appropriate. She’s starting a job in the spring to have more financial independence. We’re 100% ok with that. She wants more/different and is willing to work for it. I don’t feel like it’s kids these days at all.

My autistic kiddo, younger, by the same token is getting a swift kick too but in the opposite direction. He doesn’t need to be told help is ok and to reign in the strike out on your own impulse, he needs to be shoved past his comfort zone. They’re all different.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

8 hours ago, Katy said:

I’d still recommend they talk to a banker, because they probably need a credit history with a mix of credit types in order to qualify for a mortgage. The boys needed a bank loan and a car loan at their bank, in addition to a credit card. 
 

I know a couple who did buy a farm shortly after getting married. They still had full time jobs. I think he did some kind of truck driving and she worked for Farm Bureau or something like that. Helping with crop insurance. They didn’t have enough for a down payment for property but they talked to every farmer they knew. Through networking, they found a farmer whose kids didn’t want to farm, and they leased the land and the house from him for a few years. I don’t remember the terms, but they set it up through their lawyer so the owner got a portion of the profits, and that lowered the balance owed on the land over several years until the land was 30% undervalued and then they could qualify for a loan as if they had a 30% down payment. I’m sure it’s complicated and involved lawyers and incorporation because it wasn’t a mini farm, it was a farm in Iowa, which is probably worth more than a million today. But crop formers often work full time jobs AND farm too. 

Yes. DD and partner want to set up house, which is admirable, but intermediate steps/goals like full-time professional employment for DD (post-degree) and a car loan are necessary. It’s a process and isn’t overnight. I’m more concerned about the lack of planning/a plan or goal than where a kiddo is in that process.

[Rosie_0801]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Yes. DD and partner want to set up house, which is admirable, but intermediate steps/goals like full-time professional employment for DD (post-degree) and a car loan are necessary. It’s a process and isn’t overnight. I’m more concerned about the lack of planning/a plan or goal than where a kiddo is in that process.

Oh yes. I'm worried about my loved one launching right into something they're not capable of/will choose to sabotage/both. I'd rather they sat in their room for another year and came out the other side with a plausible plan than jumped into something without the pre-requisites in place, flunked out again and spent another two or three years in their room. The parent they lived with holds the opposite view, however, so *sigh*

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Oh yes. I'm worried about my loved one launching right into something they're not capable of/will choose to sabotage/both. I'd rather they sat in their room for another year and came out the other side with a plausible plan than jumped into something without the pre-requisites in place, flunked out again and spent another two or three years in their room. The parent they lived with holds the opposite view, however, so *sigh*

Ugh! That’s so hard, when there’s a lack of shared values.

From the time our kids were 13+/middle school age? we have annual goal-setting/course planning conversations. I really don’t care what they want to pursue, ya know? I just want to know that THEY know and are in touch with their own preferences. I listen and then make suggestions based on what they say. They change course— dd did, ds has too. Sometimes it’s formal, sometimes not, it’s just a time for us to level set, plan and be thoughtful about what the future might look like for them.

It’s something I wish my parents, anyone really, had done for me—substituting their control/edicts for how-to lead my own life lessons.

[katilac]

When I hear the world is so terrible now, I helpfully point out how terrible it's always been. 

 

[katilac]

11 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

However, I think the negativity of messaging and doom and gloom about the future takes such a toll. My 25 yo and his girlfriend make really good money for their ages. They are both on the partner tracks at their firm and don’t live together but combined they make probably $250,000 already and their earnings are about to really take off. The other night sitting here he said something about never being able to afford to own a home. Thats just not true. Home ownership has gotten more difficult, for sure, but he and his girlfriend, if they marry or combine households, can absolutely own a home. They don’t live in California.   

That's bananas.

They can absolutely own a house in California as well, with that kind of joint income.

They could buy a median-priced home in San Francisco or San Jose with that amount of money. You could make half of that or less and buy a home in Fresno, Sacramento, and many other California cities. 

Could they buy their dream home, or exactly where they want to buy? Probably not, but who can? Very few people. 

I would not be able to refrain from showing them how to use a mortgage calculator, lol. 

[teachermom2834]

7 minutes ago, katilac said:

That's bananas.

They can absolutely own a house in California as well, with that kind of joint income.

They could buy a median-priced home in San Francisco or San Jose with that amount of money. You could make half of that or less and buy a home in Fresno, Sacramento, and many other California cities. 

Could they buy their dream home, or exactly where they want to buy? Probably not, but who can? Very few people. 

I would not be able to refrain from showing them how to use a mortgage calculator, lol. 

Hahaha. I know! And he knows too because we’ve discussed it and we have always talked about money all the time since they were young. It’s just the drumbeat of negativity coming from everywhere all the time.

Now…I do think it is possible he and his girlfriend look at houses that the partners at their firm currently live in or that her family that comes from money own and and that seems like a reach. And it is…he’s 25!!! 
 

 

[Rosie_0801]

41 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Ugh! That’s so hard, when there’s a lack of shared values.

From the time our kids were 13+/middle school age? we have annual goal-setting/course planning conversations. I really don’t care what they want to pursue, ya know? I just want to know that THEY know and are in touch with their own preferences. I listen and then make suggestions based on what they say. They change course— dd did, ds has too. Sometimes it’s formal, sometimes not, it’s just a time for us to level set, plan and be thoughtful about what the future might look like for them.

It’s something I wish my parents, anyone really, had done for me—substituting their control/edicts for how-to lead my own life lessons.

I did much the same with mine for the same reason.

This other loved one is a non-relative though, and I only came into their life 5 years ago. I have spent the last few breaking down the autism taboo in their parent's head. It's not healthy to have an autism taboo in a household where both inhabitants are autistic. 

[katilac]

46 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

 And he knows too because we’ve discussed it and we have always talked about money all the time since they were young.  

Isn't that the best? 

Me to adult kid: You know this, we taught you this and talked about it all the time! 

Adult kid: What is "this"? I've never heard of "this" . . . 

🤪

[KSera]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

They could buy a median-priced home in San Francisco or San Jose with that amount of money.

Not for anything, but using the mortgage calculator, it looks to me like they could only do that if they had a giant down payment. With a $200,000 down payment and spending 30% of their income on the mortgage, they’re way, way short of being able to afford a San Francisco median price home (median price is currently $1.4 million which would make the monthly payment $9,500 a month and 30% of their income would only cover a $6000 mortgage payment). It’s so expensive! I agree there are certainly other areas in California where they could find some thing though (just checked Zillow, and there’s actually a ton of things under $400,000 if they don’t have to stay in an expensive city). For other young people who aren’t making the high salaries they are though, even that may feel out of reach. 
 

Several of my kids feel similar doom and gloom about not thinking they will ever be able to afford housing. 

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, katilac said:

When I hear the world is so terrible now, I helpfully point out how terrible it's always been. 

True, but people were not aware of all the terribleness in all the parts of the world because there was no global communication. You knew about your small portion of the world; maybe rumors from distant lands. Later in the 20th century, curated radio reports. 

Nowadays with modern media, images and videos of terrible things everywhere intrude on people, and one has to make a conscious effort to detach and not be drawn into the news cycle. It does create a different feeling - all the wars aren't just "far away" when you see the atrocities in your daily newsfeed.

[teachermom2834]

I think for my own kids the constant information overload maybe just isn’t helpful. I think back to when dh and I graduated from college and got married and started having kids shortly thereafter. We were broke and dumb and didn’t have family around. But we didn’t have constant social media and news telling us how doomed we were or constant pictures of peers doing amazing things that we weren’t. We just did stuff. One foot in front of the other. We made alot of mistakes that perhaps we wouldn’t have made if we had more information but we didn’t suffer paralysis by analysis either. When we wanted to buy a  house we went and talked to a mortgage broker and a realtor and figured out if it would work for us. We didn’t subject ourselves to years of reading about real estate and market watching and getting a hundred opinions on it. We just did it. And I’m sure we did all kinds of things that were ill advised but at least we were doing things and moving forward or sideways and making decisions and not stuck in an endless loop of information overload and negativity.  
 

We just did stuff without needing it to be perfect. But when you have constant influencers and media personalities telling you the secrets to success or the rules of finance or whatever I think maybe it just gets harder to just act. 

[Carrie12345]

9 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

 

I think for my own kids the constant information overload maybe just isn’t helpful

 

I do believe that’s an issue. We could also say we were living in a degree of ignorance/delusion before that.
Either way, these kids still know how much food, healthcare, education, cars, and housing options cost, and they know what they make. There is no hiding that from anyone who can do basic math.

[teachermom2834]

13 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I do believe that’s an issue. We could also say we were living in a degree of ignorance/delusion before that.
Either way, these kids still know how much food, healthcare, education, cars, and housing options cost, and they know what they make. There is no hiding that from anyone who can do basic math.

Yeah I agree there is some balance to be struck there somewhere. I’m not suggesting my kids strike out impulsively or be delusional about their situations and I totally agree that things really are difficult for young people starting out today. 
 

But I still wouldn’t own a home if I was following all of Dave Ramsey’s rules that are all over the internet. And sure anyone that gives you advice about buying a home is wise to advise you of all the expenses that will come up. All of that is wise and prudent. But I also know dh and I would have been no where if we had not done anything ever until we had six months of an emergency fund saved up. So no arguing that it is good advice but we sure didn’t follow it and we lived to tell. 

But obviously the cost of education and housing and healthcare and everything is just so high. I don’t know how to reconcile all of that. I think for my family I hope to be able to help out some with my kids when they need it and always have a place in my home for people to return to in crisis. 
 

 

[Carrie12345]

4 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

Yeah I agree there is some balance to be struck there somewhere. I’m not suggesting my kids strike out impulsively or be delusional about their situations and I totally agree that things really are difficult for young people starting out today. 
 

But I still wouldn’t own a home if I was following all of Dave Ramsey’s rules that are all over the internet. And sure anyone that gives you advice about buying a home is wise to advise you of all the expenses that will come up. All of that is wise and prudent. But I also know dh and I would have been no where if we had not done anything ever until we had six months of an emergency fund saved up. So no arguing that it is good advice but we sure didn’t follow it and we lived to tell. 

But obviously the cost of education and housing and healthcare and everything is just so high. I don’t know how to reconcile all of that. I think for my family I hope to be able to help out some with my kids when they need it and always have a place in my home for people to return to in crisis. 
 

Agreed.

Heck, when I was 18, I rented a crappy apartment in an old house in a crappy neighborhood and slept on an egg crate mattress thingy. My roommate and I just assumed we’d have rent and bill money somehow at the end of the month. We nuked Ramen in the microwave instead of having the gas turned on. We didn’t have a care one the world with our $7.xx jobs.   
But even in 1995, it wasn’t sustainable for long and it didn’t get us anywhere.

Dd rents a semi-crappy apartment in a semi-crappy neighborhood and works real hard to sustain it. But there’s no room for upward mobility, which is something I think we as a society need to contemplate a whole heck of a lot more than we’ve EVER been known to do.

My personal stance is that I don’t want my children to grow up to still be living in crappy places forever. And yet, there are and always have been people living their whole lives in crappy places with little to no money and we (me and general) don’t think much about it. Unless it’s our kid.

As that segment of population that I’ve so casually labeled as in “crappy places” grows, do we accept that as how the world works, or do we address it? And do we address it for just our kids, or for everyone?

We need some change. Maybe, just maybe, when it’s enough of “our” kids, we’ll finally demand it.

 

[Janeway]

I do not think therapy helps. From my recent experiences and observations, the current mindset is that everyone is a victim and there is no joy in just being okay. Even Hallmark movies are based on victimhood. My husband and I were just talking last night about how with the younger set (college age and through 20's and maybe further) seems to be falling all over themselves with a competition as to who is the biggest victim. They even put on tattoos with "meaning" to the effect of "balance" and "survivor" and various punctuation marks. These people are bored and constantly watching TikTok and whatevever else to build up this mindset and it is all around them. I am not sure if they could even relate to each other otherwise. 

I am not sure what to do about it. But until you can find therapists who are not feeding in to this mindset, it won't help. It is a fight against modern culture to put an end to this. There has always been something that the younger culture does that the older culture is not okay with and this is today's mentality. Media (which is generally run by trolls and politicians) have built up this culture of "I am a victim" "I am a survivor" "I have not been handed enough" "everyone else is handed everything" "entitled entitled entitled butthurt."

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Dd rents a semi-crappy apartment in a semi-crappy neighborhood and works real hard to sustain it. But there’s no room for upward mobility, which is something I think we as a society need to contemplate a whole heck of a lot more than we’ve EVER been known to do.

My personal stance is that I don’t want my children to grow up to still be living in crappy places forever. And yet, there are and always have been people living their whole lives in crappy places with little to no money and we (me and general) don’t think much about it. Unless it’s our kid.

As that segment of population that I’ve so casually labeled as in “crappy places” grows, do we accept that as how the world works, or do we address it? And do we address it for just our kids, or for everyone?

We need some change. Maybe, just maybe, when it’s enough of “our” kids, we’ll finally demand it.

 

Are you saying specifically there is no room for upward mobility for your daughter or speaking more generally? At a holiday gathering I was recently reminded of how far some people go career wise, even without a college education. I met a woman in her 40s who as a young single mom started the lowest level seasonal temp job in a government agency and today manages an entire division in the same agency with a salary in the mid $100ks and great benefits, including eventually a nice pension. 

I think the more current pressing need is for everyone to be housed, then maybe we can focus on getting people out of crappy living arrangements. I do think lots more shared housing arrangements of all types would help with both loneliness (and the related physical and mental health problems) and making better use of limited $ to address housing needs.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Frances

[Carrie12345]

13 minutes ago, Frances said:

Are you saying specifically there is no room for upward mobility for your daughter or speaking more generally? At a holiday gathering I was recently reminded of how far some people go career wise, even without a college education. I met a woman in her 40s who as a young single mom started the lowest level seasonal temp job in a government agency and today manages an entire division in the same agency with a salary in the mid $100ks and great benefits, including eventually a nice pension. 

I think the more current pressing need is for everyone to be housed, then maybe we can focus on getting people out of crappy living arrangements. I do think lots more shared housing arrangements of all types would help with both loneliness (and the related physical and mental health problems) and making better use of limited $ to address housing needs.

More general, but obviously I have stronger feelings when it comes to my own child.

The thing with many success stories is that they’re limited opportunities. Dh started his career at like $10/hr as a temp laborer. Now we’re well off. But he occupies 1 position. 100 temps cannot expect to secure that 1 position, or even the 10-12 positions on the path to that position. But they still deserve adequate resources for living life in exchange for working full time. And the more we streamline corporations (or similar) the fewer well paid opportunities there are. The head honchos are not representative of average possibility. Hard work? I’m sure. Good fortune, of course. But the funnel chucks most to the side. 

[Frances]

37 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

More general, but obviously I have stronger feelings when it comes to my own child.

The thing with many success stories is that they’re limited opportunities. Dh started his career at like $10/hr as a temp laborer. Now we’re well off. But he occupies 1 position. 100 temps cannot expect to secure that 1 position, or even the 10-12 positions on the path to that position. But they still deserve adequate resources for living life in exchange for working full time. And the more we streamline corporations (or similar) the fewer well paid opportunities there are. The head honchos are not representative of average possibility. Hard work? I’m sure. Good fortune, of course. But the funnel chucks most to the side. 

True, there are limited opportunities, all the more reason why we have to guide our young people strategically. Personally, if I had a young adult who was not both well educated and highly motivated, I wouldn’t be steering them toward any job with a corporation unless it was one specifically known for upward mobility. At least in my state, I believe every government job pays a living wage with excellent benefits and they have tons of openings. Certainly people can make more, often significantly more, in the private sector, but there are often downsides. And people may have to move to where the jobs are. My husband and I moved several times for education and then ultimately 2k miles away from everyone for a job and it sucked for along time, but it eventually really paid off.

[Clarita]

9 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

But I still wouldn’t own a home if I was following all of Dave Ramsey’s rules that are all over the internet. And sure anyone that gives you advice about buying a home is wise to advise you of all the expenses that will come up. All of that is wise and prudent. But I also know dh and I would have been no where if we had not done anything ever until we had six months of an emergency fund saved up. So no arguing that it is good advice but we sure didn’t follow it and we lived to tell. 

I took an in-person Dave Ramsey class. The recommendations were/are altered for HCOL areas. I think most of the internet addressing the Dave Ramsey stuff doesn't address the stuff after you've gotten out of the massive credit card debts. Additionally if you get to the investment stage of Dave Ramsey you should be looking to another program to further your assets.  

[teachermom2834]

19 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I took an in-person Dave Ramsey class. The recommendations were/are altered for HCOL areas. I think most of the internet addressing the Dave Ramsey stuff doesn't address the stuff after you've gotten out of the massive credit card debts. Additionally if you get to the investment stage of Dave Ramsey you should be looking to another program to further your assets.  

My point is just that if dh and I had followed his advice and not bought a house until we were out of debt and had a big down payment and an emergency fund and only had a mortgage that was 25%  of our take home pay for a 15 year mortgage we would not be where we are today. And while I get the fiscally conservative advice I am also glad I didn’t follow it. 
 

So…this isn’t Dave Ramsey specific it is just an observation that based on my own life we did better to just take some leaps rather than listen to all the expert advice. And our young people are just bombarded by influencers and advice in a way that dh and I were not. And that is a mixed bag.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:

My point is just that if dh and I had followed his advice and not bought a house until we were out of debt and had a big down payment and an emergency fund and only had a mortgage that was 25%  of our take home pay for a 15 year mortgage we would not be where we are today. And while I get the fiscally conservative advice I am also glad I didn’t follow it. 
 

So…this isn’t Dave Ramsey specific it is just an observation that based on my own life we did better to just take some leaps rather than listen to all the expert advice. And our young people are just bombarded by influencers and advice in a way that dh and I were not. And that is a mixed bag.

With the tightening of mortgage lending that happened after the great recession, I think most people today who qualify for a mortgage, given the combination of high prices and relatively high invested rates, are probably fine buying. At least among people I know, most just bought when they qualified and were generally planning on staying somewhere for awhile. They weren’t looking to experts or influencers for advice or trying to have so much in an emergency fund or savings or whatever. To me the biggest difference today is that right now the housing market is so wonky in some areas that it actually makes more sense to rent, even if one can buy. I mean when less than 10% of household in some areas can qualify to buy the median priced home, rents have to stay low enough for people to be able to afford them.

[regentrude]

11 hours ago, Janeway said:

My husband and I were just talking last night about how with the younger set (college age and through 20's and maybe further) seems to be falling all over themselves with a competition as to who is the biggest victim. They even put on tattoos with "meaning" to the effect of "balance" and "survivor" and various punctuation marks. These people are bored and constantly watching TikTok and whatevever else to build up this mindset and it is all around them. 

How many people of that age group do you get to observe closely in person?

Don't y'all feel that there's a lot of doom and gloom on part of the older folks in this thread?

Such a general statement does not mesh with my experience with 20somethings. I am surrounded by college age kids. I talk with a lot of students, and most of them are quite optimistic and proactive.

Yes, there are "survivors" and they are proud of it - survivors of child abuse, of sexual abuse, of chronic illness, of foster care. Of crappy circumstances they are trying to change for the better.

Just this semester alone, I met a girl with a congenital brain malformation who fights tooth and nail for her education; an 18 year old boy who moved all alone from another continent and is navigating an very different culture; a young woman who spent her first sixteen years as an invalid because there was no diagnosis and medication for her mystery condition and who is now about to graduate; a first-generation student from a small rural town who works nights at UPS before heading to class; a young woman who raises a baby with a serious medical condition and is the sweetest, most dedicated student...  For every whiner, I see many more motivated, ambitious kids. I see a lot of determination and hope. "Kids these days" aren't all tiktok watching victims. They design rockets and solar cars for competitions, spend evenings in bio labs, tutor, write poetry, put up fundraisers for the homeless shelter. And have job offers in hand before graduation. I have hope.

Edited December 30, 2023 by regentrude

[Corraleno]

12 hours ago, Janeway said:

I do not think therapy helps. From my recent experiences and observations, the current mindset is that everyone is a victim and there is no joy in just being okay. Even Hallmark movies are based on victimhood. My husband and I were just talking last night about how with the younger set (college age and through 20's and maybe further) seems to be falling all over themselves with a competition as to who is the biggest victim. They even put on tattoos with "meaning" to the effect of "balance" and "survivor" and various punctuation marks. These people are bored and constantly watching TikTok and whatevever else to build up this mindset and it is all around them. I am not sure if they could even relate to each other otherwise. 

I am not sure what to do about it. But until you can find therapists who are not feeding in to this mindset, it won't help. It is a fight against modern culture to put an end to this. There has always been something that the younger culture does that the older culture is not okay with and this is today's mentality. Media (which is generally run by trolls and politicians) have built up this culture of "I am a victim" "I am a survivor" "I have not been handed enough" "everyone else is handed everything" "entitled entitled entitled butthurt."

The "punctuation" tattoo comes from Project Semi-Colon, which was started by a rape survivor whose father committed suicide and who struggled with depression, addiction, and other mental health issues. The organization's slogan is "Your story isn't over," and the tattoo is often used by people who survived assault, severe depression, eating disorders, cutting and other self-harm behaviors, and suicide attempts. It symbolizes that what happened in the past was a pause not an end — that part of their lives ended with a semi-colon, not a period.

Dismissing people who have survived depression, rape, abuse, and suicide attempts as a bunch of entitled twits who are butthurt they haven't been handed everything on a platter and who should avoid therapy and just get over it is pretty insensitive. It comes across like "Back in my day we didn't whine about being raped or wanting to kill ourselves and we didn't need any stupid therapists, we just shut up and got over it" (except of course for the ones who didn't "get over it"). As if that was better or stronger or healthier. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Corraleno

[Frances]

12 hours ago, Janeway said:

I do not think therapy helps. From my recent experiences and observations, the current mindset is that everyone is a victim and there is no joy in just being okay. Even Hallmark movies are based on victimhood. My husband and I were just talking last night about how with the younger set (college age and through 20's and maybe further) seems to be falling all over themselves with a competition as to who is the biggest victim. They even put on tattoos with "meaning" to the effect of "balance" and "survivor" and various punctuation marks. These people are bored and constantly watching TikTok and whatevever else to build up this mindset and it is all around them. I am not sure if they could even relate to each other otherwise. 

I am not sure what to do about it. But until you can find therapists who are not feeding in to this mindset, it won't help. It is a fight against modern culture to put an end to this. There has always been something that the younger culture does that the older culture is not okay with and this is today's mentality. Media (which is generally run by trolls and politicians) have built up this culture of "I am a victim" "I am a survivor" "I have not been handed enough" "everyone else is handed everything" "entitled entitled entitled butthurt."

Are you talking about your own children? Because this is not at all what I’m seeing in my life. I’m regularly in awe of how hard working, motivated, open to challenges, etc most of the young adults I know are. Not to mention that most are far more accepting of a wide variety of people and ways of doing things, compared to the older generations.

[freesia]

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

Are you talking about your own children? Because this is not at all what I’m seeing in my life. I’m regularly in awe of how hard working, motivated, open to challenges, etc most of the young adults I know are. Not to mention that most are far more accepting of a wide variety of people and ways of doing things, compared to the older generations.

All my young adults and their friends are doing great. I don’t see victimhood as a theme, either. 

[Corraleno]

17 minutes ago, Frances said:

Are you talking about your own children? Because this is not at all what I’m seeing in my life. I’m regularly in awe of how hard working, motivated, open to challenges, etc most of the young adults I know are. Not to mention that most are far more accepting of a wide variety of people and ways of doing things, compared to the older generations.

Same here. All but one of my kids' friends are in college, working hard, or juggling both at the same time, and in the case of the one entitled/victim/slacker kid I know, that is just basically his personality — I knew plenty of guys like that, who just wanted to sit around smoking weed and complaining about life, way back in the 70s. There are always people like that in every generation, in every culture.

Ironically, I don't think it's "kids these days" who are being brainwashed by media that they are victims, I think it's more Boomers being brainwashed by their media that "kids these days" all act like victims.

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Same here. All but one of my kids' friends are in college, working hard, or juggling both at the same time.

Same here.

Here's a funny. One of DS' best friends had a serious case of rebellion against his parents and upbringing. How do you rebel when you're raised by hippies homesteading in the woods? Move to the city and become a financial advisor and make money ;) It's still cracking me up. Btw, no college degree needed for this.

[Frances]

56 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Ironically, I don't think it's "kids these days" who are being brainwashed by media that they are victims, I think it's more Boomers being brainwashed by their media that "kids these days" all act like victims.

Nailed it!

[Bootsie]

I was highly motivated and goal-oriented in my early 20's with a clear career path in an area in which I excelled and enjoyed.  My children have not been as highly focused as I was and I am very careful not to fall into the "when I was your age..." conversation  They are doing fine; their path is just looking very different from mine.  DH and I were talking the other day and he did start the "when I was their ages..."  and then I reminded him what he WAS doing at their ages; he was pursing a masters degree, not because he had a career goal he was following--his goal was to stay out of Vietnam.  His cousin who has had a successful career as a pediatrician did not even start thinking of medical school until she was 30; she had a liberal arts undergraduate degree and was busy with her anti-war protest marches in her 20s.   My cousin who has been a successful business owner was an "artist" until well into his 30s; he didn't want to work because he didn't want to pay taxes to support an evil government once he had kids his motivation changed.  My cousin who is a nurse practitioner who is in charge of a major NICU didn't get her first nursing degree until she was in her late 30's.  She spent her 20s and 30s going to at least 6 different universities, going to massage school, going to embalming school, becoming a real estate agent, being a DJ--almost anything you name she tried.  I also know a lot of people who have drifted and fallen into a job that they have supported themselves with and they have been very happy with their lives.  "Success" can look very different to different people.  

[Carrie12345]

Just a note/thought - my original use of “victim mentality” wasn’t intended to mean some of the things that have been brought up as the conversation evolved. I might have been able to be clearer about that. We tend to use that term to mean different things in different contexts. In my original context, it was more about a general sense of defeatism than entitlement or persecution.   
Which isn’t to say those topics aren’t relevant to the overall conversation. I just don’t want to leave the impression that ANY of my kids think they deserve to be loaded by 30 for sitting on their butts! 

[DawnM]

40 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Just a note/thought - my original use of “victim mentality” wasn’t intended to mean some of the things that have been brought up as the conversation evolved. I might have been able to be clearer about that. We tend to use that term to mean different things in different contexts. In my original context, it was more about a general sense of defeatism than entitlement or persecution.   
Which isn’t to say those topics aren’t relevant to the overall conversation. I just don’t want to leave the impression that ANY of my kids think they deserve to be loaded by 30 for sitting on their butts! 

I think that is a good distinction.   And one we tend to toss around labels that may not be completely accurate.

My ASD child has not launched and it isn't looking too promising that he ever will.   We applied for SSI and were denied, but we plan to try again with a lawyer.  However, we dont' know if it will ever happen.

Mine has been to therapy for years and no real changes.   He is on medication.   Some change.   

At this point we are talking to the siblings about future years and how to help him and we are setting up a trust so that he will receive some funds monthly after we are gone.   I have also set up my retirement so that once I die, he will receive that monthly amount.   It is a nice benefit in NC.   I have to take a lesser amount each month of my life but he will get that same amount until he dies.   My CA retirement system funds don't allow that.

But housing for him in the future?   I have no idea.

All that to say, I feel your frustration and angst.   I have it too.   It is overwhelming at times.

[KungFuPanda]

I think housing expenses are incredibly high compared to incomes and I see why these kids are discouraged, but I don’t think they understand the hours of overtime and drudgery GenXer were willing to put in to pull it off. I also don’t think they quite grasp how much we were willing to lower our living standards to make it work. Many of them cannot imaging living in a less desirable area and never eating out or going out for a few years to make it work. They think they NEED work-life balance in their childless twenties when there’s no better time to work ridiculous hours or go all in with your personal goals. If you are just prioritizing dining out, concert tickets, and travel, that’s perfectly fine but it’s a choice. The sheer amount of physical hustle that existed pre-internet can be viewed as impossible. I’ll bet a lot of people who say they don’t have time for a second job spend 5+ hours a day on the internet. I’m not sure losing hours of your life every day to a screen is giving anyone balance. (I’m talking about recreational use, not computer time at work)