Drag Story time

[Ginevra]

Can we discuss this? I want to understand what the purpose of this is. I view myself as moderately open-minded and for sure, do not think any group or culture of people should be shunned by society. 
 

However. Why have a Drag Queen presenting story time to young children at a public event? What is the goal? 
 

Along the same vein, an elementary school teacher friend said they have been instructed to read from a selection of “Pride books” before school ends for summer. What is the purpose of reading “Pride books” specifically? 
 

I am asking this in good faith and hope to discuss it in a rational manner. 
 

PS: these are things in my community within my direct experience; they are not news headlines or internet hear-say. 

[MEmama]

Fun. Drag is fun. 🙂 

Kids love characters, and that's all drag is. People dressed outrageously because it's fun and silly.

A "Pride" book is likely to discuss inclusivity, accepting oneself for who they and others even if they are different than you. It's about celebrating our individuality and differences, rather than being frightened of them. Books allow space for conversations to begin, allow for discussions that might not otherwise happen. They help us understand ourselves and be less afraid (or even excited!) to ask and learn about others. 
 

Thank you for asking in good faith. This might be a fun conversation. 🙂 

[Laura Corin]

I don't know anything about drag story time.

As a child growing up between a father living with a new woman and a mother also living with a new woman, I would have welcomed hearing stories occasionally that reflected my family relationships. 

[Ginevra]

4 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I don't know anything about drag story time.

As a child growing up between a father living with a new woman and a mother also living with a new woman, I would have welcomed hearing stories occasionally that reflected my family relationships. 

It seems a bit manufactured of a concept to me. I guess it makes me wonder why “we” have to choose a month of the year to read books with characters that spend eleven other months aware that their family isn’t usual. Also, don’t most kids think their own family is weird? 😃 Like, I could have benefited from a “Religious people month” growing up. Then I would have known mine wasn’t the only weird religious family! 

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Ginevra said:

It seems a bit manufactured of a concept to me. I guess it makes me wonder why “we” have to choose a month of the year to read books with characters that spend eleven other months aware that their family isn’t usual. Also, don’t most kids think their own family is weird? 😃 Like, I could have benefited from a “Religious people month” growing up. Then I would have known mine wasn’t the only weird religious family! 

It’s not manufactured solely by rates of suicide. If pride month helps people feel grace snd empathy for themselves and others, and helps alienated people identify people who will make them feel accepted and loved, it’s a good thing. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

A good friend of ours owns a bar that routinely hosted drag shows until about 2020. The shows were for charity. I took my kids a couple times but they thought it was weird.  I finally realized that it wasn’t anything to do with gender, but that they don’t know anyone in real life who wears much makeup. I don’t wear any day to day and neither do their aunts or most of the other women they came in contact with.  The characters weren’t anything they recognized, and my kids kind of thought it was just weird.

For the drag performers I know it’s really just a character they enjoy getting into and that character has fun reading to kids.  That’s all.  There’s a drag queen who routinely does a reading at a local library and predictably people are always upset about it. I know him and he’s happily married to a woman with a couple kids. He’s not even gay. He just loves dressing up in character. I always wonder what all the people yelling about him performing and reading to kids would say if they knew that.

It does annoy me that our library system goes all out for their drag queen story time, but won’t allow requests from others to come in and hold a special story time. That includes religious people wanting to read Bible stories to kids, Indigenous people wanting to come read the local Indigenous tribes myths to kids, a historian who wanted to come read Mark Twain tales.  They wouldn’t allow any of that, so to me the drag queen story time feels more virtue signaling than true inclusivity.

[KSera]

I'm not sure if you're saying Pride month seems manufactured or drag story hour. They are two different categories to me. I find the current banning and vilification of drag anything to be totally wrong and ridiculous and am 100% against it. At the same time, drag story hour makes little sense as a concept for children to me. It seems more made for the adults, as drag doesn't usually have anything to do with children (a child dressing in gender non-conforming ways isn't in "drag"). So, while they have drag story time here, it's not something I take my kids to, but I think it's stupid for people to be going out of their way to ban it. Just don't go if it's not your thing.

[MEmama]

3 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

It seems a bit manufactured of a concept to me. I guess it makes me wonder why “we” have to choose a month of the year to read books with characters that spend eleven other months aware that their family isn’t usual. Also, don’t most kids think their own family is weird? 😃 Like, I could have benefited from a “Religious people month” growing up. Then I would have known mine wasn’t the only weird religious family! 

Yes, it's a shame we have to continually fight for being seen as "not unusual". Were there no make believe controversy surrounding queer people, we wouldn't need a Pride month. But here we are, just as we need to celebrate other things because they aren't (yet) widely accepted. Pride raises awareness, it celebrates love and acceptance and joy. Why are those controversial? Idk, but if they weren't we wouldn't "need" a month to highlight how damn hard it is to merely exist in this world. 

[maize]

Drag seems to me to be nothing more than a man dressed as a hypersexualized caricature of a woman.

I see zero merit to it. The fact that some men think it is fun to dress as a caricature of a woman only adds extra weight to the cons side of the tally sheet. 

I'm thoroughly perplexed by people who think that promoting such caricature to children is wise, healthy, or of value to society. Women have worked hard to escape objectification and stereotyping.

Guess we're supposed to turn a blind eye now.

[Ginevra]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

I'm not sure if you're saying Pride month seems manufactured or drag story hour. They are two different categories to me. I find the current banning and vilification of drag anything to be totally wrong and ridiculous and am 100% against it. At the same time, drag story hour makes little sense as a concept for children to me. It seems more made for the adults, as drag doesn't usually have anything to do with children (a child dressing in gender non-conforming ways isn't in "drag"). So, while they have drag story time here, it's not something I take my kids to, but I think it's stupid for people to be going out of their way to ban it. Just don't go if it's not your thing.

I’m saying reading particular books to groups of kids because it’s June seems manufactured  to me. 
 

But the rest of your post is pretty close to my feelings about the drag story time. I don’t understand the uproar against it but it’s hard for me to see why kids would find it fun. 

[Ginevra]

10 minutes ago, maize said:

Women have worked hard to escape objectification and stereotyping.

Well, that’s a good point. 
 

Im over here doing my best to counteract the idea that women must wear high heel dress shoes to be considered feminine and attractive. Hell if I know why a man would wear them! 😆

[YaelAldrich]

7 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I’m saying reading particular books to groups of kids because it’s June seems manufactured  to me. 
 

But the rest of your post is pretty close to my feelings about the drag story time. I don’t understand the uproar against it but it’s hard for me to see why kids would find it fun. 

Do you feel the same way about February being Black history awareness month,  or May being Asian and Pacific Islander month? Or the other myriad months for this and that minority group?  

I kind of agree it's kind of odd that men dressing up as hypersexualized women is the thing to represent  LGBTIA(etc)  people.  Why not butch lesbians, or gay 'bears' or just people? 

[Ginevra]

Just now, YaelAldrich said:

Do you feel the same way about February being Black history awareness month,  or May being Asian and Pacific Islander month? Or the other myriad months for this and that minority group?  

I kind of agree it's kind of odd that men dressing up as hypersexualized women is the thing to represent  LGBTIA(etc)  people.  Why not butch lesbians, or gay 'bears' or just people? 

I do not love Black History Month because I live for the day when we just say, “This was an amazing human in history,” and not having to fit them into February because of BHM. 
 

In Pete Buttegiege’s book, “The Long Way Home”, he said something about longing for the day when there is no need to “come out” as gay. When you just show up at the office picnic with your partner or spouse and everyone goes, “Well hello, Mr Whoever; it’s nice to meet you.” And then they have some more pasta salad.
 

I think that way. 

[Amethyst]

Does anyone remember Bosom Buddies? It’s the first show I ever saw Tom Hanks in. Premise was two guys couldn’t find cheap apartment so they dressed up as women to get into an all-women living situation. It was drag. It was funny. Anyone remember Radar O’Reilly from MASH. It was drag. It was funny. That’s all drag is. It’s outrageously funny. 
 

[Melissa in Australia]

I find it disturbing that a person is dressed up in drag, with a short dress, sitting with legs opened at eye level of small children who are sitting on the floor. 

Every image I have ever seen of a drag library reading has this. 

Maybe they are completely clueless on how to sit in a short dress when kids are sitting on the floor looking at you or maybe they are doing it on purpose to get their jollies

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I do not love Black History Month because I live for the day when we just say, “This was an amazing human in history,” and not having to fit them into February because of BHM. 

But BHM is an important step on the journey to that day.  

It's not an end point, and pride isn't either.  But right now, it's appropriate for where we, as a society, are in the journey.

3 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

 

In Pete Buttegiege’s book, “The Long Way Home”, he said something about longing for the day when there is no need to “come out” as gay. When you just show up at the office picnic with your partner or spouse and everyone goes, “Well hello, Mr Whoever; it’s nice to meet you.” And then they have some more pasta salad.
 

I think that way. 

 

[ktgrok]

20 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I’m saying reading particular books to groups of kids because it’s June seems manufactured  to me. 

It is manufactured - it's basically a "reminder" to talk about certain issues and read books by and about LGBTQI people. Because the vast vast vast majority of time and attention and books and materials and shows and such are by and about straight people. And therefore it is REALLY easy to just avoid or forget to include or not come across materials the rest of the year. So, we take some time in June to remember to do that. To have the conversations, learn about people's experiences, discuss the issues, etc. Because frankly, in most places, that isn't happening the rest of the year. If it was, sure, no need to do it in June specifically. 

 

[ktgrok]

I look at drag as similar to cosplay. That said, some do it more respectfully than others, and some costumes, be they drag or cosplay, reinforce stereotypes I am not happy about. There are jerks who cosplay. There are jerks who are drag queens. And there are a ton of really nice people that do either/both. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, Amethyst said:

Does anyone remember Bosom Buddies? It’s the first show I ever saw Tom Hanks in. Premise was two guys couldn’t find cheap apartment so they dressed up as women to get into an all-women living situation. It was drag. It was funny. Anyone remember Radar O’Reilly from MASH. It was drag. It was funny. That’s all drag is. It’s outrageously funny. 
 

Radar was not in drag. It was Max Klinger. And he was trying to be sent home for being mentally ill. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

1 minute ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I find it disturbing that a person is dressed up in drag, with a short dress, sitting with legs opened at eye level of small children who are sitting on the floor. 

Every image I have ever seen of a drag library reading has this. 

Maybe they are completely clueless on how to sit in a short dress when kids are sitting on the floor looking at you or maybe they are doing it on purpose to get their jollies

My friend doesn’t. He wears a long dress and sits in a chair. He kind of resembles a heavily made up mother goose.

But the drag shows I’ve been to, taking out the two I brought my children to that were advertised as family friendly, were men dressing as hypersexualized women doing hypersexualized and exaggerated moves while badly lip syncing. There were some performers that I definately felt were making fun of female stereotypes and others that gave me the vibe they were just having fun.  It’s hard to explain.

[Ginevra]

4 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

Does anyone remember Bosom Buddies? It’s the first show I ever saw Tom Hanks in. Premise was two guys couldn’t find cheap apartment so they dressed up as women to get into an all-women living situation. It was drag. It was funny. Anyone remember Radar O’Reilly from MASH. It was drag. It was funny. That’s all drag is. It’s outrageously funny. 
 

Isn’t part of why we thought those characters were funny *was* because we knew they were guys. We always laughed at men in women’s clothes but that’s not really the thing to do anymore. (I thought…) 

And, was it Radar? I thought it was Clinger or something. I thought Radar was the short guy. 

[KSera]

11 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I do not love Black History Month because I live for the day when we just say, “This was an amazing human in history,” and not having to fit them into February because of BHM. 
 

In Pete Buttegiege’s book, “The Long Way Home”, he said something about longing for the day when there is no need to “come out” as gay. When you just show up at the office picnic with your partner or spouse and everyone goes, “Well hello, Mr Whoever; it’s nice to meet you.” And then they have some more pasta salad.
 

I think that way. 

That would/will be lovely. We're not there yet, and just pretending we are when we aren't isn't going to get us there.

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I look at drag as similar to cosplay. That said, some do it more respectfully than others, and some costumes, be they drag or cosplay, reinforce stereotypes I am not happy about. There are jerks who cosplay. There are jerks who are drag queens. And there are a ton of really nice people that do either/both. 

I've noticed cosplay can have a big issue with really hypersexualizing female charcters, as does anime (and the cross section of cosplay and anime has that a ton). I have a lot of (interesting, to me, lol) thoughts on that but probably not a good time or place for it.

[MercyA]

9 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

Does anyone remember Bosom Buddies? It’s the first show I ever saw Tom Hanks in. 

I remember it every time I hear Billy Joel's "My Life," which was the theme song. "I don't need you to worry for me 'cause I'm alright..."

[KSera]

I actually have wondered to myself how drag became part of the pride movement as of late, because they don't really seem very related to me. People in drag are typically not trans, but seem to blur that line in a way that's not really helpful to trans people. Because the whole point with drag is usually that they are men wearing women's clothing, and that's what makes it a whole thing. Which seems really opposite to me of not having rigid ideas surrounding gender stereotypes. Drag is quite often the opposite of that. So, it is actually something I have wondered sometimes lately.

[BusyMom5]

My comment is strictly for the Drag Story Hour.  I feel like Drag makes fun of women, in a demeaning way.  It's a hyper-sexualization of women's bodies, which feels icky to me- its the equivalent of Black Face.  I can't believe anyone thinks it's okay to market this to kids. As a woman, it offends me.  Same for sexualization of other characters in anime for example, ir even p*rn.  

I don't think everyone who likes to dress in Drag is offensive, but the names chosen, movements performed- yeah, it's hyper-sexualization of women's bodies.  You don't have to be a conservative to feel that way.  I think lots of feminists feel this way, but we are told to be quiet and be inclusive. 

If this were race-related, Drag would be considered offensive by all.  Think for a minute about dressing up as a "Poor black man" and making fun of his stereotype.  Exaggerating language differences,  making him look stupid, making fun of his clothes.  I see no difference at all.

  

[Amethyst]

12 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Radar was not in drag. It was Max Klinger. And he was trying to be sent home for being mentally ill. 

You’re right. Klinger. But it was funny. 

[SKL]

People in my world who are LGBT+ do not appreciate stereotyping, which is what drag queen events do.

It seems to work pretty hard against the idea that LGBT+ people are just people first and foremost.

I also would like to know why it's always a man dressed as a woman, and not the other way around.

I honestly think their purpose is to get sensational attention.

I don't think this kind of thing deserves priority where many other groups are essentially banned.  For example, would that same public library or school host a purity storytime?

Not that it takes up a bunch of space in my head.  But if my kids saw that, they would not come away thinking "LGBT+ people are just like you and me!"  Because nobody IRL does themselves up that way.  In the media, women who look like that are not "just like you and me."

There are just so many better ways to spend our  kids' time.

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

My comment is strictly for the Drag Story Hour.  I feel like Drag makes fun of women, in a demeaning way.  It's a hyper-sexualization of women's bodies, which feels icky to me- its the equivalent of Black Face. 

I had never drawn the black face equivalence, but you raise an interesting point there. I've been assuming that the people doing drag story hour are not doing it in the way an adult oriented drag show would be done. Again, not our thing, so I've not seen it, but are these actually being done by people dressing and behaving in a hypersexualized way? Just a man in a dress wouldn't make it sexualized to me in any way.

[Idalou]

51 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

A good friend of ours owns a bar that routinely hosted drag shows until about 2020. The shows were for charity. I took my kids a couple times but they thought it was weird.  I finally realized that it wasn’t anything to do with gender, but that they don’t know anyone in real life who wears much makeup. I don’t wear any day to day and neither do their aunts or most of the other women they came in contact with.  The characters weren’t anything they recognized, and my kids kind of thought it was just weird.

For the drag performers I know it’s really just a character they enjoy getting into and that character has fun reading to kids.  That’s all.  There’s a drag queen who routinely does a reading at a local library and predictably people are always upset about it. I know him and he’s happily married to a woman with a couple kids. He’s not even gay. He just loves dressing up in character. I always wonder what all the people yelling about him performing and reading to kids would say if they knew that.

It does annoy me that our library system goes all out for their drag queen story time, but won’t allow requests from others to come in and hold a special story time. That includes religious people wanting to read Bible stories to kids, Indigenous people wanting to come read the local Indigenous tribes myths to kids, a historian who wanted to come read Mark Twain tales.  They wouldn’t allow any of that, so to me the drag queen story time feels more virtue signaling than true inclusivity.

I haven't heard of any libraries around here doing drag story time the past 3 years, they've just recently started holding them at local bookstores. What reason does the library give for not allowing any other outsiders in your town? I find that highly unusual.

[katilac]

46 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

It seems a bit manufactured of a concept to me. I guess it makes me wonder why “we” have to choose a month of the year to read books with characters that spend eleven other months aware that their family isn’t usual. Also, don’t most kids think their own family is weird? 😃 Like, I could have benefited from a “Religious people month” growing up. Then I would have known mine wasn’t the only weird religious family! 

America is overwhelmingly religious, with the vast majority being Christian. 

Children's books that reference families being religious are not unusual in the least, and never have been. 

I consider that a ridiculous comparison. 

1 hour ago, Ginevra said:

I view myself as moderately open-minded and for sure, do not think any group or culture of people should be shunned by society. 

However. Why have a Drag Queen presenting story time to young children at a public event? What is the goal? 

Along the same vein, an elementary school teacher friend said they have been instructed to read from a selection of “Pride books” before school ends for summer. What is the purpose of reading “Pride books” specifically? 

Thinking that certain types of people should not be shunned by society is really scraping the bottom of the open-minded barrel. 

Drag Queen Story Hours are a mix of increasing awareness that drag queens are just, y'know, people, and providing queer role models. Don't like Drag Queen Story Hour, don't go to Drag Queen Story Hour. It's true that you might not be able to completely avoid ever catching a glimpse of them, just like I can't manage to completely avoid every catching a glimpse of street corner preachers. Such is life. 

The Pride books question seems blindingly obvious to me: representation. 

38 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

 It does annoy me that our library system goes all out for their drag queen story time, but won’t allow requests from others to come in and hold a special story time. That includes religious people wanting to read Bible stories to kids, Indigenous people wanting to come read the local Indigenous tribes myths to kids, a historian who wanted to come read Mark Twain tales.  They wouldn’t allow any of that, so to me the drag queen story time feels more virtue signaling than true inclusivity.

That seems like an extraordinarily odd and rare strategy for a library system to take. Drag queens only are allowed to have story hour? They are refusing to allow historians and Indigenous people to have story hours? Have you asked them why? Have you objected? Have you contacted your local representative? How many drag queens do you have in your lil rural town? 

If they are not being inclusive (to the point of absolute ridiculousness), then they should be called out on that. Public libraries are generally government agencies with government employees, so there are many, many rules and regulations about these things. Make the call. 

29 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I’m saying reading particular books to groups of kids because it’s June seems manufactured  to me. 
 

But the rest of your post is pretty close to my feelings about the drag story time. I don’t understand the uproar against it but it’s hard for me to see why kids would find it fun. 

Yes, it is manufactured, because otherwise these books would, in most places, never be read. Or even available - I'm sure you are aware that banning books from schools is back in vogue. 

If kids don't find it fun, they don't have to go. Or maybe they do have to go, if their parents make them, but my parents made me go to church and I certainly didn't consider that fun. 

12 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I do not love Black History Month because I live for the day when we just say, “This was an amazing human in history,” and not having to fit them into February because of BHM. 
 

In Pete Buttegiege’s book, “The Long Way Home”, he said something about longing for the day when there is no need to “come out” as gay. When you just show up at the office picnic with your partner or spouse and everyone goes, “Well hello, Mr Whoever; it’s nice to meet you.” And then they have some more pasta salad.
 

I think that way. 

We can all long for that day, but it isn't here. Hence the books, Hence the representation. 

I'm sure you know that many achievements of black people were actively suppressed for an incredibly long time. There is a reason Hidden Figures, released as a book in 2014 and a movie in 20-frakking-17, has the title it does. Black women did absolutely amazing things at NASA in the 1960s, but were relegated to being, yep, hidden figures. 

I'm astonished that you are asking why black and queer people need specific representation. 

[Idalou]

Kids are smarter than we give them credit for. They can enjoy a storyteller as much as the story itself. And let's face it, who understands drag, which is just dressing up crazy like, better than a little kid?  

Some people just enjoy looking for boogie monsters in every single space now. Drag queens are not the enemy. They're not groomers or predators or degenerates. They read classic tales and tales of -Gasp!! All these scary woke things like diversity, friendship, funny animals, trains with faces, etc.

[maize]

14 minutes ago, KSera said:

I had never drawn the black face equivalence, but you raise an interesting point there. I've been assuming that the people doing drag story hour are not doing it in the way an adult oriented drag show would be done. Again, not our thing, so I've not seen it, but are these actually being done by people dressing and behaving in a hypersexualized way? Just a man in a dress wouldn't make it sexualized to me in any way.

Just a man in a dress isn't drag. 

If you call it drag, you're pulling the whole culture of drag in to the thing you are promoting to children at a public library, even if The Specific Presentation at the library leaves out the more offensive aspects of that culture.

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by maize

[Mona]

40 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I do not love Black History Month because I live for the day when we just say, “This was an amazing human in history,” and not having to fit them into February because of BHM. 
 

I once heard Morgan Freeman say he disliked Black History Month because black history is just American History. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Mona

[Dmmetler]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

People in my world who are LGBT+ do not appreciate stereotyping, which is what drag queen events do.

It seems to work pretty hard against the idea that LGBT+ people are just people first and foremost.

I also would like to know why it's always a man dressed as a woman, and not the other way around.

I honestly think their purpose is to get sensational attention.

I don't think this kind of thing deserves priority where many other groups are essentially banned.  For example, would that same public library or school host a purity storytime?

Not that it takes up a bunch of space in my head.  But if my kids saw that, they would not come away thinking "LGBT+ people are just like you and me!"  Because nobody IRL does themselves up that way.  In the media, women who look like that are not "just like you and me."

There are just so many better ways to spend our  kids' time.

Drag kings are absolutely a thing. 

 

I am very, very glad that S and L benefitted from being able to do Shakespeare classes with "Bella DuBalle"-for many years, the TN Shakespeare company did an outreach to schools, including a weekly class for middle and high school homeschoolers. They're an amazing educator, and an amazing person. 

 

https://www.npr.org/2023/03/16/1163815547/tennessee-drag-law-queen-bella-duballe

 

And this woman doesn't feel threatened or insulted or mocked by drag in any way, shape, or form. Femininity isn't pie. It doesn't get consumed. 

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, KSera said:

I've been assuming that the people doing drag story hour are not doing it in the way an adult oriented drag show would be done. Again, not our thing, so I've not seen it, but are these actually being done by people dressing and behaving in a hypersexualized way?

Well, now that I've looked up pictures from various drag story hours, I'm just kind of confused. They're all over the place. Some of just men dressed as things like mermaids or other fantasy creatures with lots of makeup (is that really drag?) while many are people made up with makeup in a way that I'm pretty sure would have been scary to any of my young kids, whether the person was a man or a woman. (I don't want to post pics from the web, so here's an example link: https://texasscorecard.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/drag-queen-scaled-1.jpg, https://jacksonheightspost.com/council-members-host-drag-queen-story-hour-in-jackson-heights-celebrate-programs-funding) So, I really don't know what to think of what the point or message is. If they're just people dressed up in fun ways, how is that drag, and if they're men dressed as super exaggerated stereotypes of women, I don't see that as a high point of breaking down gender stereotypes. Nonetheless, I don't see anything about them that means the government should in any way be involved in banning them. Just don't go if it's not your thing. It's not ours and we don't go. Easy.

6 minutes ago, maize said:

Just a man in a dress isn't drag.

Agree with you there

[rebcoola]

We dont have a drag queen story hour as of now I think mostly because all our queens have day jobs. Their is often people coming in to do a story hour from firemen to idengious people they read stories about people like them so the kids would learn about different kinds of people. 

Drag is away for people to explore and play with gender. While drag shows are typically funny and raunchy many queens participate in other types of performances and pagenants. Their are Drag kings and female Drag Queens.   

We have a monthly drag brunch thats all ages and the queens usually dress up as Disney princess or similar fun charaters the reason people go is it is fun or to support people they know. Pretty much the same reason anyone goes to any show

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

26 minutes ago, Idalou said:

I haven't heard of any libraries around here doing drag story time the past 3 years, they've just recently started holding them at local bookstores. What reason does the library give for not allowing any other outsiders in your town? I find that highly unusual.

vetting. The drag performer is a former library system employee with a background check.   So it makes sense in that way, but the library system isn’t really interested in running background checks on non employees.

The whole way it is advertised and dealt with just feels peformative, but kids do seem to enjoy it. 
They have a special drag queen story hour about twice a year. It’s heavily advertised and generates great media attention due to the controversy because all the people complain on social media.

I took my kids to the Frozen drag queen story hour they did prior to Covid and frankly I found it kind of dumb. Just have a Frozen themed story hour with Elsa reading. Why do you need to advertise it’s Drag Queen Elsa? Is there really a kid  who cares what’s under Elsa’s clothing? And even for my own son who likes to wear dresses, that isn’t going to make him feel included because he doesn’t grasp that Elsa is a guy in cosplay.  I’d rather have the guy from the local fast food drive through who wears a beautiful manicure and well done makeup every day come read to the kids.  He’s a genuinely lovely man who makes my son feel included every time we see him.  If he came and read a story to kids because and just happens to have the lovely fake nails he wears every day, that would make my son in his dress feel less strange in the world than a man dressed up as Elsa.

This isn’t my small town, it’s the larger library system in a nearby city.  But perhaps surprisingly, we do have a number of drag queens here.  I know this because I used to help my friend coordinate the drag shows at his restaurant and I got to know many of the performers personally.  But most of these people live completely ordinary lives with families and jobs, and many of the people they know only in passing don’t know that they’re drag queens in weekend shows. I assume this is true just about everywhere.  Drag queens don’t dress up in drag to go grocery shopping and the vast majority are not transgender. It really is just cosplay, but I think it’s worth teasing out if some of it can perpetuate harmful stereotypes of women, just as some anime does.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Ginevra]

@katilac

Why do kids need role models of being queer, though? Is it aspirational? 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I don’t think you can talk about the appropriateness of drag story hour within an inclusive community without knowing the history of drag. 
 

Drag likely started in the 1880s as a way of exploring gender and celebrating diversity of gender expression. By the 1960s, drag performance was one of the limited ways trans women could earn money since so many were shunned by society.

While performers may be anything from men with cis-het backgrounds to something else…drag is culturally relevant to an inclusive community and not just some “weird thing”.

[prairiewindmomma]

2 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

@katilac

Why do kids need role models of being queer, though? Is it aspirational? 

 

Why do you think all children are straight? I know a number who do not neatly fit into a binary world. Shouldn’t they have some space to be accepted for who they are? The fact that you think that representation isn’t important shows me you have largely felt safe and accepted by the world. 

[MEmama]

3 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

@katilac

Why do kids need role models of being queer, though? Is it aspirational? 

 

Turn the question around. Why must only  "straight" be the default? 
 

[livetoread]

3 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

@katilac

Why do kids need role models of being queer, though? Is it aspirational? 

 

It's not aspirational to be queer, but it's not wrong either. Queer kids or kids who will question later will benefit from learning early on that there is nothing shameful or wrong about being queer and non queer kids benefit from learning the same thing. Our society in the past and to a large extent still does give the message that it's sinful and shameful. Insisting that kids are too young to know anything about "queerness" implies it is something undesirable. Why shouldn't kids see queer people living their lives, holding hands with their partners, reading stories in libraries, etc?

[katilac]

28 minutes ago, KSera said:

That would/will be lovely. We're not there yet, and just pretending we are when we aren't isn't going to get us there.

I've noticed cosplay can have a big issue with really hypersexualizing female charcters, as does anime (and the cross section of cosplay and anime has that a ton). I have a lot of (interesting, to me, lol) thoughts on that but probably not a good time or place for it.

It's very common in cosplay to cross-dress in both directions. Maybe we'll have that thread one day. 

24 minutes ago, KSera said:

I actually have wondered to myself how drag became part of the pride movement as of late, because they don't really seem very related to me. People in drag are typically not trans, but seem to blur that line in a way that's not really helpful to trans people. Because the whole point with drag is usually that they are men wearing women's clothing, and that's what makes it a whole thing. Which seems really opposite to me of not having rigid ideas surrounding gender stereotypes. Drag is quite often the opposite of that. So, it is actually something I have wondered sometimes lately.

Drag has a long and complicated history. Yes, it is an exaggeration of gender stereotypes, but also often has the purpose of subverting those gender stereotypes. 

Drag and trans are two completely different things. People who participate in drag are most often gay, which is why they are part of the Pride movement. 

18 minutes ago, SKL said:

People in my world who are LGBT+ do not appreciate stereotyping, which is what drag queen events do.

It seems to work pretty hard against the idea that LGBT+ people are just people first and foremost.

I also would like to know why it's always a man dressed as a woman, and not the other way around.

I honestly think their purpose is to get sensational attention.

I don't think this kind of thing deserves priority where many other groups are essentially banned.  For example, would that same public library or school host a purity storytime?

Not that it takes up a bunch of space in my head.  But if my kids saw that, they would not come away thinking "LGBT+ people are just like you and me!"  Because nobody IRL does themselves up that way.  In the media, women who look like that are not "just like you and me."

There are just so many better ways to spend our  kids' time.

What do you think is wrong with wanting sensational attention? I don't know anyone who ever claimed that drag queens were generally wallflowers, and many performers of various types seek sensational attention. 

Purity person story hour - sure, why not? Not in the sense of you should all be pure just as the drag queen story hour is not you should all be drag queens or LGBT+. But representing yourself as a person who believes in purity (which is a word with too many meanings, but we'll roll with it for now) or acts out purity, and you'd like to read them a story about a character who is similar, in hopes that they recognize that character as a person with feelings, who is worthy of respect even though they may be different from you? Absolutely. Read the books about queer people, about purity-minded people, about Muslims, about immigrants. Read about all the people. 

3 minutes ago, Mona said:

I once heard Morgan Freeman say he disliked Black History Month because black history is just American History. 

With all due respect to Mr. Freeman, black history should just be American history, but it is not.  Representation is critically important, and we cannot rely on diverse representation without these artificial markers. 

[Ginevra]

8 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Why do you think all children are straight? I know a number who do not neatly fit into a binary world. Shouldn’t they have some space to be accepted for who they are? The fact that you think that representation isn’t important shows me you have largely felt safe and accepted by the world. 

Do drag queens represent not being straight? 

[Ginevra]

12 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Turn the question around. Why must only  "straight" be the default? 
 

Why is that the only two choices? A drag Queen story time leader or a regular person who is straight but the kids won’t know that anyway? 
 

I dont think straight has to be the default. But the opposite of straight is not drag. Right?

Edited June 15, 2023 by Ginevra

[Clarita]

Our library is just trying to get children and people into the library to read books. It is as much marketing or who's willing as it is anything else. Some Drag Queens do dress as characters kids love like mermaids, Elsa, etc. and some little girls love anyone in glitter, and color.

My library has a bunch of things going on like bubble man, balloon artists, clowns, unicyclists so I wouldn't even be phased if there was a Drag story time. Unless they are in a super mini skirt where I'd be concerned if it was a cis-woman as well.

[rebcoola]

3 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Do drag queens represent not being straight? 

Their is definitely a strong connection with not being straight. At the least non conforming.  I mean the majority are gay men performing in gay spaces.

 

[maize]

Re: "it's funny" as an explanation for promoting something--demeaning and offensive stereotypes are absolutely things that many people laugh over.

That doesn't make them either harmless or worthy of promotion.

[prairiewindmomma]

4 hours ago, Ginevra said:

Do drag queens represent not being straight? 

 

To me, drag queens represent acceptance in society for anyone—even if they are crazy and outlandish. If there is a place for someone that crazy and outlandish then maybe there is a place for my family and friends who are not so crazy and outlandish but a little bit extra beyond what has been traditionally accepted….a boy who wears nail polish or a girl who wears a suit and takes a girl to prom or someone who doesn’t identify strongly with being male or female but wants a space in between.

Edited June 16, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[katilac]

22 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

vetting. The drag performer is a former library system employee with a background check.   So it makes sense in that way, but the library system isn’t really interested in running background checks on non employees.

You have a library system that doesn't allow outside speakers unless they've been through a background check? I think that library system needs to talk to, like, every other library system in existence. 

It's also a bit disingenuous to first state that they only allow drag queens and not historians or anyone else, only to come back and say, oh, it's bc the drag queen has been background checked. That is not at all what you were implying in the other post. 

16 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

@katilac

Why do kids need role models of being queer, though? Is it aspirational? 

 

Everyone needs role models and representation.  Queer kids, minority kids, disabled kids, all the kids need to see themselves reflected in the world. 

You are honestly surprising the hell out of me with this thread. 

2 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

Do drag queens represent not being straight? 

For the most part, yes.