Anyone waiting for this docuseries? Shiny Happy People

[Ting Tang]

This is why they try to break the kids as babies first. Any feisty personalities are subdued early on. I grew up in Wheaton (church town) and Naperville. We went to a Lutheran school for a few years (we even ran the track at Wheaton College), and I don’t remember hearing about IBLP, either.   I’ve been to a few Chicago area mega churches and never got weird vibes, but I think IBLP would’ve called them satanic for the music. 

[Lecka]

I grew up in a conservative Baptist church and then a conservative non-denominational church.

 

My husband grew up going to cult-like churches.

 

Things he heard routinely and grew up thinking were normal and the way churches were everywhere, I truly never heard in my entire life, and would he abhorrent to people in the churches I grew up in.  
 

My mother-in-law also believes the large, conservative, Baptist, but not cult-like church my sister-in-law and her family attends now preaches false doctrine and is so angry.  She has been angry at me for years.  It is not rational.  
 

A lot of the reason is she is drawn to charismatic pastors who “tell people the answers” and who will also tell people all about the problems with the other Baptist church down the street.

 

Never in my life have I attended a church where the pastor trash talk all the other churches in town, and especially the ones that are the closest denominationally.  But those are the closest competition for a cult-like pastor!   

 

Stuff from my husband’s church is so strange and unbelievable that it’s like you can’t even talk to people about it, it’s too weird to be believable.  But it’s all true!

 

Edit:  yes my husband’s church had a Bob Jones influence for sure.  The college in Pensacola was the only acceptable college.  Stuff like that.  They were influenced by the other groups.  But his pastor was just in charge of his little church, to an extreme degree.  Their pastor was the one who knew God’s will, not like the pastors at all the other churches. It is truly bizarre.  
 

There has turned out to have been a lot of sexual abuse, as well.  Several people are in prison now, or went to prison but have gotten out by now.  
 

People could have glaring red flags, but they were so assumed to be the kind of church where bad things wouldn’t happen, full of special people who understood this was the right church to attend, that it would be unthinkable to say they should look out for sexual predators or anything like that.  It would he offensive to say something like that could happen in their special church.  
 

My husband has said to his mom, we go to churches that have policies about who can work with kids, and can kids be alone with an adult, and things like that.  We care about that.  
 

His mom’s response is how horrible it is we go to a church where we have to worry about things like that, these must be bad churches, if we are worried about bad people in the church.  
 

It’s just something we look at so differently.  
 

Something else with his church, I have asked my husband how many of the adults there he would say seemed like fairly regular, normal people, and it’s a small number.  I think many of the people there were susceptible to this kind of pastor.  And then that is its own problem.  My in-laws had a lot of problems apart from this church, but that’s part of why they picked to go to a church like this, out of all the churches they could have attended.  They visited and thought this one was the best!  

Edit:  actually, maybe they liked the Abeka people and not the  Bob Jones people?  Are they different groups?  Lol.  I can’t keep track of it.  I think Pensacola Christian College was the approved college.  

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Lecka

[Dmmetler]

16 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I think it's one of those things where the veins run so deep, it's hard to disentangle.

I see it more as: how much influence did Gothard (et al) have on peripheral Christian materials and how did those influence the churches? And I mean everything: conventions, seminars, homeschooling curriculum, those abominable Statements of Faith/group rules that are so focused on $*x and "modesty" that it runs through every part of it.......

Everything.

I still shudder thinking about the resurgence of Elsie Dinsmore that took place over a decade ago, where they were "acceptable" literature that taught godly values - or child abuse, grooming, pro-slavery, etc. in the name of obedience.  I came across one of the volumes at the thrift store yesterday that looked well read and I felt so sad for the child who was saddled with it.  But it's the little things like this, the little outliers that you wouldn't connect with Gothard until you realize the two are very compatible and promote the same thing - just in a friendlier way.  And these were the things that were absorbed into churches that didn't promote ATI or IBLP.

I definitely see it in almost ALL the homeschool events, groups and ministries here. It's something I've been pushing back against since I started homeschooling-and which ai might not have been so sensitized against had I not had prior experience with being hurt and abandoned by people I thought I was friends and sisters in Christ with over the crime of losing a baby-and realized that the reason these "experienced moms" had taken me under their wing was my fertility, and without that, I was nothing. 

 

 

 

[TechWife]

Another source pointed out this statement from IBLP. Classic.

https://iblp.org/a-statement-on-recent-media-coverage/
 

[Farrar]

27 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I think it's one of those things where the veins run so deep, it's hard to disentangle.

Yes. Several people in this thread have also mentioned some of the other influences in Christianity that were compatible, but not part of the same financial and influence structure. There were a lot of different people all pushing for similar approaches. I mean, prosperity gospel is not just Gothard.

[Faith-manor]

17 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I should clarify---I'm reading comments in various places other than here that I do feel point to this.  My faith isn't the strongest right now, also, which makes me prone to wondering what is right or wrong.  We do not go to church and haven't been in a very long time; we listen to Christian music, read the Bible, and we consider ourselves Christians.  Sometimes I wonder if my belief system is even "conservative," but I am not sure how else to describe it.  It's certainly not Duggar, and it is certainly not, "sure kids---have sex in my house!"  LOL    

I think that the proper term really for the belief system that leads to things like IBLP is not really conservative Christianity but fundamentalism, and there is a definite difference between these two things. Many conservative Christians do not fall into the camp of defining their faith by all the things they are against, considering everyone who does not believe as their enemies, see demons lurking around every corner like in rock music, drums, and cabbage patch dolls (hallmarks of IBLP), consider women to have no agency, advocate spiritual authority by force, and want to establish a theocracy for everyone, etc. Fundamentalists often advocate FOR abuse and call it love. Doug Phillips - whose father Howard Phillips ran for president on a "empty the prisons by executing everyone" platform - , Bill Gothard, JimBob Duggar, R.C. Sproul Jr., Doug Wilson, and many others have openly proposed the death penalty for LGBTQ persons, for those who commit adultery, for well pretty much anyone who does not bow the knee to their beliefs. JimBob ran an entire campaign for state senate on the pledge that LGBTQ people, adulterers, and pedophiles should be executed all the while hiding his own son from authorities who would go on to become a user of Ashley Madison, beat up a prostitute, and then a pedo consumer of CSAM ending in prison. This is exactly the kind of stuff that fundamentalists of any religion do. Rules for thee, not for me! Oppression and fear is the name of the game. Most conservative Christians are NOT for that. However some will fall for this politically in a failed attempt to try to vote for conservatives in general. But it is a false conservativism, religious fundamentalism being used by a group to get elected into high places for nefarious purposes. This makes some moderates and progressives begin to conflate two which is from where the discomfort comes.

One of the key elements I see is the lack of Jesus in it all. They trot him out when convenient. "Get saved you lousy sinners." But then ignore literally everything in the gospels because they prefer a rather medieval approach to religion in modern life. Old Testament gone radical really and with NO actual understanding of the book they claim to follow. One cannot take the gospels, study them, and then make a case for fundamentalism. Fundamentalism and Jesus are not compatible.

[Faith-manor]

46 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I definitely see it in almost ALL the homeschool events, groups and ministries here. It's something I've been pushing back against since I started homeschooling-and which ai might not have been so sensitized against had I not had prior experience with being hurt and abandoned by people I thought I was friends and sisters in Christ with over the crime of losing a baby-and realized that the reason these "experienced moms" had taken me under their wing was my fertility, and without that, I was nothing. 

 

 

 

I had the exact same experience. The link between homeschooling and quiverful, fertility cults is pretty scary in a lot of places. I have watched my mother's rather moderate, love Jesus feed the poor church go from rather Jesusy looking stances on issues to fundamentalism cult in the last 10 years, and the number one culprit in this has been the church being dominated by a take over of quiverful home schoolers some of whom are Gothardites, but also other similar religious movements/leanings. My experience though dates back to 34 years ago while living in an area known for fundamentalism churches who ignored medicine and science. My baby could not survive, no way no how, and I was on the edge of beginning to die when I had a D&C, but the condemnation was absolutely astounding. Baby murderer was the term used by so many local christians. I was not in a good place emotionally, and when asked if we would have more, at the time I could not imagine the horror of going through it again and said NO. Bam, baby murderer unwilling to produce "arrows for god". Write.her.off. was the mantra. Apparently, I have had my one way ticket to hell bought and paid for ever since. That's fine with me. Better that and have my integrity and moral fiber intact than bow the knee to such a god.

I am so sorry you experienced it! You went through so much more than I did. It hurts my heart thinking of what you endured. Hugs from me. You have always been a true, online friend on this forum.

[Farrar]

I'm further into it this morning (bad Farrar, get back to work!) but one, it's a sign of how I've been in the homeschool world for too long that I feel like other Americans should have heard of Generation Joshua. And two, I'm having a hard time getting a handle on the real success/failure of that initiative. Because on the one hand, we see that fundamentalists have been more successful in influencing government in a variety of ways, especially all the way to the top. But on the other hand, by most measures (and the series hasn't covered this yet in my viewing) Generation Joshua was a failure. A lot of the shining lights left the church, political participation by former homeschoolers is on the low side from what people can measure... it's just not what they wanted it to be.

[Faith-manor]

58 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I grew up in a conservative Baptist church and then a conservative non-denominational church.

 

My husband grew up going to cult-like churches.

 

Things he heard routinely and grew up thinking were normal and the way churches were everywhere, I truly never heard in my entire life, and would he abhorrent to people in the churches I grew up in.  
 

My mother-in-law also believes the large, conservative, Baptist, but not cult-like church my sister-in-law and her family attends now preaches false doctrine and is so angry.  She has been angry at me for years.  It is not rational.  
 

A lot of the reason is she is drawn to charismatic pastors who “tell people the answers” and who will also tell people all about the problems with the other Baptist church down the street.

 

Never in my life have I attended a church where the pastor trash talk all the other churches in town, and especially the ones that are the closest denominationally.  But those are the closest competition for a cult-like pastor!   

 

Stuff from my husband’s church is so strange and unbelievable that it’s like you can’t even talk to people about it, it’s too weird to be believable.  But it’s all true!

 

Edit:  yes my husband’s church had a Bob Jones influence for sure.  The college in Pensacola was the only acceptable college.  Stuff like that.  They were influenced by the other groups.  But his pastor was just in charge of his little church, to an extreme degree.  Their pastor was the one who knew God’s will, not like the pastors at all the other churches. It is truly bizarre.  
 

There has turned out to have been a lot of sexual abuse, as well.  Several people are in prison now, or went to prison but have gotten out by now.  
 

People could have glaring red flags, but they were so assumed to be the kind of church where bad things wouldn’t happen, full of special people who understood this was the right church to attend, that it would be unthinkable to say they should look out for sexual predators or anything like that.  It would he offensive to say something like that could happen in their special church.  
 

My husband has said to his mom, we go to churches that have policies about who can work with kids, and can kids be alone with an adult, and things like that.  We care about that.  
 

His mom’s response is how horrible it is we go to a church where we have to worry about things like that, these must be bad churches, if we are worried about bad people in the church.  
 

It’s just something we look at so differently.  
 

Something else with his church, I have asked my husband how many of the adults there he would say seemed like fairly regular, normal people, and it’s a small number.  I think many of the people there were susceptible to this kind of pastor.  And then that is its own problem.  My in-laws had a lot of problems apart from this church, but that’s part of why they picked to go to a church like this, out of all the churches they could have attended.  They visited and thought this one was the best!  

Edit:  actually, maybe they liked the Abeka people and not the  Bob Jones people?  Are they different groups?  Lol.  I can’t keep track of it.  I think Pensacola Christian College was the approved college.  

 

Yes, Bob Jones and Pensacola compete with each other both in the homeschool and Christian school curriculum business, but also for their own piece of the fundamentalist pie.

[Ting Tang]

Yes, I'd never heard of Generation Joshua, either.  Maybe it has to do with your motivations or reasons for homeschooling.  We are not homeschooling for religious reasons; being able to insert anything Christian is a little perk for us.  But we're homeschooling because we do not like the shortcomings of our local public school and are not ready to spend the money on a private school---not to mention we do not want to have to attend church every Sunday in order for our children to be comfortable attending a school somewhere.  ETA:  We started with Abeka and still use some of the products.  I do think the phonics is good.  We hadn't gotten too far into much or the videos to see anything that has been criticized.  

Edited June 6, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Faith-manor]

Just now, Farrar said:

I'm further into it this morning (bad Farrar, get back to work!) but one, it's a sign of how I've been in the homeschool world for too long that I feel like other Americans should have heard of Generation Joshua. And two, I'm having a hard time getting a handle on the real success/failure of that initiative. Because on the one hand, we see that fundamentalists have been more successful in influencing government in a variety of ways, especially all the way to the top. But on the other hand, by most measures (and the series hasn't covered this yet in my viewing) Generation Joshua was a failure. A lot of the shining lights left the church, political participation by former homeschoolers is on the low side from what people can measure... it's just not what they wanted it to be.

I agree. And one of the most "famous" Generation Joshua leaders, Joshua Harris, is now a pro -LGBTQ atheist, divorced, and sharing custody of his kids all after years of pastoring fundamentalist SGM churches, and sweeping sex abuse in those churches under the rug. Not exactly the outcome they hope for. However, there are definitely others.

The thing is, Millenials - Generation Joshua - have not grown up and then just towed the party line of their parents as hoped. They began the growing "nones" movemen, many of whom would say they believe in the Apostles Creed but not organized Christianity because of the corruption. They might have entered adulthood ready to be the take over kids, but their young adult experiences were pretty tough out in the real world compared to the promises made to them in their fundamentalist churches, and they seem to be falling away. Gen Z is REALLY falling away. Gen Alpha may end up just about unaffiliated for the majority. As a religious entity, Christianity in any form is slated to be in the minority of the population by 2050, and some estimates put it closer to 2040. That is pretty major. Fundamentalism is gutting the religion.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

How much of an impact do folks think Gothard had on turning mainline Protestant churches in his direction? Obviously lots of smaller unaffiliated churches were involved and the entire Baptist world was infected with this nonsense. (Well, not the entire Baptist world -- I grew up Baptist, but my church was kicked out of the SBC when I was a young teen.) But how much do people think other denominations were impacted? When I look at mainline Protestant churches now, it feels like so many of them have dramatically lost membership and/or have turned toward a particularly right-wing ideology. American Christianity has long been pretty conservative along a number of lines, but there used to be more wiggle room and less open political talk in my experience. Do folks feel like the Gothardites themselves or just the Gothard model of having people attend seminars and then go back and sway their churches has been a part of this shift?

I think that it is less that fundamentalists influenced the theology of various denominations directly, and more that they spread ideas to church members, via books/conventions/radio shows/etc. It was more an astroturf movement...I'd say grassroots but there was a TON of money and effort put into it. They sidestepped the pastors and theologians and went after the people in the pews, and often the people who were nominally Christian but not in any pew at all. 

Also, there was a lot that had to do with politicians and political organizations realizing that religion was a good way to spread a message and gather followers. 

in toher words, I'd say a lot or most came from outside the mainline churches, but infiltrated in via commercial means and political means. 

[MrsMommy]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

This is why they try to break the kids as babies first. Any feisty personalities are subdued early on. I grew up in Wheaton (church town) and Naperville. We went to a Lutheran school for a few years (we even ran the track at Wheaton College), and I don’t remember hearing about IBLP, either.   I’ve been to a few Chicago area mega churches and never got weird vibes, but I think IBLP would’ve called them satanic for the music. 

Totally off topic, but I think we maybe went to the same school.

[Clemsondana]

I saw Ezzo being used as a guide with a friend and also a relative.  Both were in mainline churches - one Presbyterian, the other Methodist.  I don't know that it was a big church-wide push - in both cases, I think that maybe a small group/Sunday School class read the book and the families did it.  I don't know how strictly the families followed all of it the beginning, and for various reasons neither family continued with this approach as the kids got older.  Their kids are now mostly grown and their families seem to be in a very different place.  It didn't seem to correlate with political ideology - one of these is fairly conservative, while the other had 'resist' posted the day after the 2016 election.  Both worked part-time from the time that their kids were fairly young (maybe 6 months - 1 year?) so they had some day care or mothers helper/sitter interactions so there's no way that they could have followed all of it strictly. 

But, with that being said, I had never heard of Gothard, IBLP, Ezzo, etc from my own circles (relative and friend were not in the same state as me) until I saw criticisms on message boards when I was pregnant.  I had heard of Dobson but hadn't read much.  Churches that I was involved in (multiple states) were more likely to be 'Love and Logic' places.  I never got into any particular philosophy.  I was fortunate to be in a church where I was adopted by a lot of grandparent-age people, and I took whatever snippets of advice seemed applicable.  Some of the best advice that I ever got was 'Unless it's a safety issue, don't invest much time in dealing with a behavior that they'll outgrow quickly'.  In other words, limit how much time you spend teaching them to not pull out all of the tupperward, since that phase will be over in a few months.  Focus on not running into the road - that's both a safety problem and a long-term issue.  

Edited June 6, 2023 by Clemsondana

[Pam in CT]

re religiosity as marketing strategy / profit center

14 hours ago, ktgrok said:

...I am listening to Jesus and John Wayne and an early revelation to me was how this idea of evangelical conservatism was a culture, NOT based in any particular church or theology. It was based in consumerism and marketing, not actual religion, so easy to spread via Christian bookstores and Christian radio, no church required. That made SO much sense to me!

That is really interesting.  I'll be mulling over that for a while.

(I don't think the implications of the concept are limited to Christian fundamentalism.)

 

re "Generation Joshua"

48 minutes ago, Farrar said:

... I feel like other Americans should have heard of Generation Joshua. And two, I'm having a hard time getting a handle on the real success/failure of that initiative. Because on the one hand, we see that fundamentalists have been more successful in influencing government in a variety of ways, especially all the way to the top. But on the other hand, by most measures (and the series hasn't covered this yet in my viewing) Generation Joshua was a failure. A lot of the shining lights left the church, political participation by former homeschoolers is on the low side from what people can measure... it's just not what they wanted it to be.

Well. Count me among those who only first heard of GenJ... mmm, about six minutes ago.

[~~ rapid rabbit trail break ~~]

 

Well, that sure puts Madison Cawthorn in a different frame.  Huh.

(Love these boards...)

[Faith-manor]

Update on Bobye and Jim Holt:

On May 8, 2023, a judge extended the temporary protection rider for Bobye and their remaining minor children to a 10 year protection order. The 10 year is not common. So though the trial for whatever he did to Sam, an adult son, any has not occurred yet, it is clear to me that the domestic violence Bobye accused Jim of has to be pretty bad.

I hope she and the children are safe. My guess is that since Sam pressed charges against his father, he may be helping out with that, however, that is pure speculation. I just know that IBLP nuts can be very dangerous when they face permanent loss of control of the women and children in their "umbrella of authority". Separation and restraining order eras in relationships these days seem to be very fraught with danger.

[Danae]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

I think that the proper term really for the belief system that leads to things like IBLP is not really conservative Christianity but fundamentalism,

 

It’s not even fundamentalism.  Fundamentalism is much more concerned with traditional doctrines and sticking to “the fundamentals.”  IBLP et. al’s preoccupation with hierarchies of authority and reproduction and theocratic government is its own thing.  Dominionism plus sex cult.

[Indigo Blue]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

But we're homeschooling because we do not like the shortcomings of our local public school and are not ready to spend the money on a private school-

 

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

We started with Abeka and still use some of the products. 

My son has long graduated, but this was also us. We used some A Beka products along with a mix of others. I have to admit, at the time, I was pretty ignorant of all things fundamentalist. I just wanted excellent curriculum to get us through. It did the job well and then some. Far better than any alternative in public school. That is, in OUR public schools which were pretty lacking. When I compared it to my own education from public school, I was impressed. 
 

I still don’t know how BJU and A Beka (colleges) compare to the flavor of the awful Gothard fundamentalism described in this thread. And I didn’t need to know at the time. I scoured the curriculum over before using, and it seemed excellent. We ignored what didn’t serve us. All the private schools in my area use these. I realized, at that time, there were biases in the curriculum. We were aware. 
 

 

 

[Harriet Vane]

2 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

This is why they try to break the kids as babies first. Any feisty personalities are subdued early on. I grew up in Wheaton (church town) and Naperville. We went to a Lutheran school for a few years (we even ran the track at Wheaton College), and I don’t remember hearing about IBLP, either.   I’ve been to a few Chicago area mega churches and never got weird vibes, but I think IBLP would’ve called them satanic for the music. 

Small world moment here. I lived for years in Wheaton, and my first apartment when I married dh was in Naperville. My school used the track at Wheaton College for practicing. (I have vivid memories of running those stairs!!)

[Kidlit]

I haven't  read the whole thread, so excuse if it's answered above, but what's the relationship between TeenPact and all this?  (I mean, I get the political stuff, but is there more?). I ask because while I only know this other stuff peripherally, I do know people who've sent their teens to TeenPact. 
 

it didn't feel like it at the time, but now I see it was a good thing my older kiddos went to school.  I could never follow all the extreme conservative stuff (it was never why we homeschooled), and providing enough social and academic opportunities for my older kids got to be more than I could do.  I see now that maybe we dodged that bullet. I still miss homeschooling , though. 

[thatfirstsip]

When I first started homeschooling I was a little unschooly and I loved the idea of project-based learning. I found this blog, with a pretty decent following - I think called fun in my backyard (fimby). They lived in a cabin in Vermont or something; she made soap; the kids were really into art and stem, it was neat. I was pretty jealous of their life and their homeschool. I'm not religious; they were, but not in any obviously conservative way, and it didn't get in the way of my jealousy.

Then one day I read a brief post she made on the blog, about how her kids always obeyed immediately, the first time, and with a smile - and about how she would absolutely never be willing to disclose how she'd gotten them to do that, because she knew it would create some controversy among her readers and she didn't want to argue about it. She was quite pleased, almost braggy, about the obedience, though.

I had read enough here to know how she'd likely achieved this, and I was sickened. My jealousy immediately transformed into schadenfreude; I wanted her to fail, to be shown for a monster, etc. I checked every now and then for years hoping for this to happen, and when it did, I was gleeful.

This was all many years ago, while I was in a severely abusive marriage myself, in which I allowed my own children to be abused by their father out of fear for my own safety. 

I just remembered her today, and the jealousy is gone, along with the schadenfreude. I just feel sorry for all of them, her included, and for me. Bring caught in a patriarchal cult of abuse is hard for women. We have to do better. But also, the men who perpetuate these systems have to be held to account.

[Ting Tang]

3 hours ago, MrsMommy said:

Totally off topic, but I think we maybe went to the same school.

I went to St. John Lutheran from 3rd through 5th grade.  I think it shut down a while ago!  I then went back to public school, but my family moved to Naperville when I was in middle school.

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

Small world moment here. I lived for years in Wheaton, and my first apartment when I married dh was in Naperville. My school used the track at Wheaton College for practicing. (I have vivid memories of running those stairs!!)

Very small world!  I now live in La Salle County.  Talk about a culture shock!  

[Pam in CT]

(( @thatfirstsip ))

I am so glad for you that you and your kids are in a better place now.

And proud of you.

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

 

My son has long graduated, but this was also us. We used some A Beka products along with a mix of others. I have to admit, at the time, I was pretty ignorant of all things fundamentalist. I just wanted excellent curriculum to get us through. It did the job well and then some. Far better than any alternative in public school. That is, in OUR public schools which were pretty lacking. When I compared it to my own education from public school, I was impressed. 
 

I still don’t know how BJU and A Beka (colleges) compare to the flavor of the awful Gothard fundamentalism described in this thread. And I didn’t need to know at the time. I scoured the curriculum over before using, and it seemed excellent. We ignored what didn’t serve us. All the private schools in my area use these. I realized, at that time, there were biases in the curriculum. We were aware. 
 

 

 

We used only their updated curriculum for the lower grades, but I started to read things about racist and anti-Catholic rhetoric later on n the curriculum.  When we started, I had no clue about all the curriculums that existed--I honestly thought Abeka was one of very few!  I do see why some stick with it.  Everything is laid out and scripted for you.  When I used to hear the word Fundamentalist, though, I do not think I quite understood all it entailed.  

[rebcoola]

3 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I have watched my mother's rather moderate, love Jesus feed the poor church go from rather Jesusy looking stances on issues to fundamentalism cult in the last 10 years, and the number one culprit in this has been the church being dominated by a take over of quiverful home schoolers some of whom are Gothardites, but also other similar religious movements/leanings. 

Our old church changed similarly but it was driven by the Classical Christian school moving into the building more and more of the members were sending kids there.  Its super influeced by the Wilsons and so strict and just weird.  They are at least getting a good education in english and math.  They are all so proud when someone gets into Wilsons college like its Harvard l.

 

[Calm37]

3 hours ago, MrsMommy said:

Totally off topic, but I think we maybe went to the same school.

And the church I attended was a block away from that school. 🙂 But in the 70s. That church/school, I believe, now owns that church building! 

[Sneezyone]

15 hours ago, Farrar said:

That is nuts. I mean, in general, a lot of this stuff is stuff that if it weren't for the victims, I'd laugh because it's so absurd. My friends and I used to collect Chick Tracts and do silly dramatic readings of them in high school, and I think that's about where my head is on some of this. Except, as completely silly as it sounds, it was part of stuff that hurt all these people.

If hadn’t moved to a hotbed of the movement, I’d probably do likewise.

[MrsMommy]

36 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I went to St. John Lutheran from 3rd through 5th grade.  I think it shut down a while ago!  I then went back to public school, but my family moved to Naperville when I was in middle school.

Yep, that's the place! I went there pre-K through 8th grade, and my mom is still a member of the church. Now I'm wondering if I knew you at any point!

[MrsMommy]

16 minutes ago, Calm37 said:

And the church I attended was a block away from that school. 🙂 But in the 70s. That church/school, I believe, now owns that church building! 

You're correct...they've changed it quite a bit!

[Sneezyone]

This feels like a good moment to recommend The Sum of Us by Heather McGhee. It’s a quick, easy read (probably a gateway drug for some), but if you’re interested in how animosity toward ‘progressive’/‘mainstream’ values was weaponized to harm us all, it connects all the dots. Pls. Don’t be put off by the subtitle! It’s not a book about blame/fault but cause/effect, and VERY gentle.

I’m recommending it b/c one of the things the series hints at but doesn’t explain (and some folks noticed/mentioned) is the lack of ethnic diversity and the animating principles that drove the creation of the religious right in America. It’s not just me saying it either. Find another Amazon book on this topic with a 4.8 rating and over 4500 reviews!? If you REALLY want to understand the pervasive impact of this ideology, not just on subsets of Americans/global citizens but on all of us, read the book.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[El...]

Well, I finished the series. I'm deciding to view this show as cathartic experience, I guess.

As I told dh while watching it, I got a perm for those people. 

I'm not ok with that decade of our lives. I tell myself I wasn't seriously abused (some people's experiences were much worse). But I'm not ok. 

[kbutton]

8 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

All I can really speak to on that is being very glad my kids were so darn feisty that they would not have complied with that strict training without so much of a fight that I would have known what I was doing was too much. Because I was a young mom without much support and I desperately wanted good children. I still consider myself strict and joke about being a law and order kind of mom but I didn’t have a kid that would have blanket trained without being seriously beaten. Thank God. If my kids were more compliant I might have thought those were amazing principles for first time obedience. I hope not but it is possible. If I had a weakness for this sort of thing it would have been a desire for obedient children. 

Me too! This is exactly my experience--my kids made me realize how extreme a lot of this crap is.

15 hours ago, TechWife said:

I watched all of the episodes on Saturday. Does anyone else see the similarities between IBLP and Growing Kids God's Way? 

Yes. Add to the list, Shepherding A Child's Heart. That's the book in the Reformed camp that does a lot of damage.

8 hours ago, Farrar said:

How much of an impact do folks think Gothard had on turning mainline Protestant churches in his direction?

...

When I look at mainline Protestant churches now, it feels like so many of them have dramatically lost membership and/or have turned toward a particularly right-wing ideology. American Christianity has long been pretty conservative along a number of lines, but there used to be more wiggle room and less open political talk in my experience. Do folks feel like the Gothardites themselves or just the Gothard model of having people attend seminars and then go back and sway their churches has been a part of this shift?

I get the impression that it's creating more Nones and Dones at the moment, but I couldn't say for sure about the past.

6 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I think that the proper term really for the belief system that leads to things like IBLP is not really conservative Christianity but fundamentalism, and there is a definite difference between these two things.

QFT. Your whole reply was spot on.

5 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I had the exact same experience. The link between homeschooling and quiverful, fertility cults is pretty scary in a lot of places. I have watched my mother's rather moderate, love Jesus feed the poor church go from rather Jesusy looking stances on issues to fundamentalism cult in the last 10 years, and the number one culprit in this has been the church being dominated by a take over of quiverful home schoolers some of whom are Gothardites, but also other similar religious movements/leanings.

There is a segment of this sort of people in just about every kind of church we've tried to find (and yes, we're on the more conservative side, and that matters). Churches that would never seem legalistic (as in worried about "the world" and things like music preference, hemlines, etc.) at all have some version of authoritarian garbage +/- homeschool crowd buying into it even if they are not authoritarian about the same things. The SBC, the reformed world (PCA and other similar denominations), and even the Anglican Church in North America. We found a church that doesn't seem to be like this, but we cannot find a denomination that is not dealing with it. 

5 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

That is pretty major. Fundamentalism is gutting the religion.

Absolutely!

4 hours ago, Danae said:

It’s not even fundamentalism.  Fundamentalism is much more concerned with traditional doctrines and sticking to “the fundamentals.”  IBLP et. al’s preoccupation with hierarchies of authority and reproduction and theocratic government is its own thing.  Dominionism plus sex cult.

That's old-school fundamentalism as the original movement, but evangelicalism is fraught with fundamentalism of all kinds right now--general authoritarianism, dominionism, Gothard crap, political authoritarianism, etc. are fundamentalist movements in the sense that we'd think of religious fundamentalism in the context of other extremist movements. Old-school fundamentalism is still out there, but it is also going to be pulled apart by the new kind of fundamentalism if those churches aren't careful what they let in. 

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

This feels like a good moment to recommend The Sum of Us by Heather McGhee. It’s a quick, easy read (probably a gateway drug for some), but if you’re interested in how animosity toward ‘progressive’/‘mainstream’ values was weaponized to harm us all, it connects all the dots. Pls. Don’t be put off by the subtitle! It’s not a book about blame/fault but cause/effect, and VERY gentle.

I’m recommending it b/c one of the things the series hints at but doesn’t explain (and some folks noticed/mentioned) is the lack of ethnic diversity and the animating principles that drove the creation of the religious right in America. It’s not just me saying it either. Find another Amazon book on this topic with a 4.8 rating and over 4500 reviews!? If you REALLY want to understand the pervasive impact of this ideology, not just on subsets of Americans/global citizens but on all of us, read the book.

I have been hearing more about how this played out historically, but not specifically this book. IIRC, White Too Long talks about this more overtly.

https://www.amazon.com/White-Too-Long-Supremacy-Christianity/dp/1982122870/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=580696445728&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9015643&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12911701375972978006&hvtargid=kwd-935662012795&hydadcr=22569_13493349&keywords=white+too+long+robert+p+jones&qid=1686080906&s=books&sr=1-1

 

[CindyH in NC]

I am on my second viewing of the series, and have been so overwhelmed by my emotions.  I was raised in an independent, fundamental Baptist church and private school.  My parents were not as extreme as many of the families in this particular church.  For example, I was allowed to listen to music of my choosing (more or less) and wear shorts at home.  But over the years, I have come to consider the church I grew up in as cult-lite (I think I saw this term on here once, but can't credit to any particular member) .  It has taken so many years to truly see and overcome those teachings.  I feel that our church controlled us with brainwashing and fear.  (I am not commenting on any other churches, just the coalition I was involved in along with a church of the same denominational leanings in the area we live in currently that we attended briefly many years ago.)

My children were homeschooled for many reasons, and I hope they don't end up regretting it.  I hope that people don't lump all of us homeschoolers into this movement because of this documentary.  So many thoughts and unexpected feelings after watching this.  

I have never watched the Duggar shows, and most of my info about them came from this site and articles online or in magazines.  I have to admit to finding them fascinating in a train wreck type of way.  

 

[ktgrok]

On 6/6/2023 at 10:34 AM, Pam in CT said:

re religiosity as marketing strategy / profit center

That is really interesting.  I'll be mulling over that for a while.

(I don't think the implications of the concept are limited to Christian fundamentalism.)

 

Nope. It explains a lot of the MAGA movement as well - more about branding and selling hats and merch than about actual political ideals. Then once everyone has (literally) bought in, you can shift the beliefs without much trouble. MAGA hats, WWJD bracelets, it is all commercialism profiting off of and using our primate desire to be part of a tribe. 

On 6/6/2023 at 2:20 PM, Sneezyone said:

This feels like a good moment to recommend The Sum of Us by Heather McGhee. It’s a quick, easy read (probably a gateway drug for some), but if you’re interested in how animosity toward ‘progressive’/‘mainstream’ values was weaponized to harm us all, it connects all the dots.

Yup. When I learned that the whole push for "family values" and such started as a reaction to segregation academies being disbanded, it made a LOT more sense. Because truly, the movement never really lined up with the ideals of Christianity. Lines up perfectly with the ideals of racism and political power though. 

[Ellie]

We were in and out of Gothard so quickly that we didn't know most of this stuff was going on. When ATI became a thing, we saw a number of leaders in the homeschool community disappear from public view (because you know, you shouldn't let your dc associate with dc who are not being reared "properly" as they might be a bad influence); several of them even moved to a small mountain community together.

There's an organization that does annual conferences; I advertise it on my FB group because I don't have anything specific I can say as to why I'm not, and I'm not going to be the conference police. But I cringe every time it comes around.

[Lostinabook]

On 6/2/2023 at 11:08 AM, catz said:

Jill seems meek.  I do feel awful for her, she is certainly a victim.  Her comment about brain washing at public schools made me roll my eyes after what she went through.  As someone who was raised kind of Catholic, has only attended a UU church (not Christian) sporadically as an adult, and has only homeschooled in secular circles, it is interesting and alarming.  

The Exec Prod answered a question about this in her AMA on Reddit: 

 

[Eos]

On 6/6/2023 at 10:34 AM, Pam in CT said:

Well, that sure puts Madison Cawthorn in a different frame.

-snort-

[Kidlit]

Am I the only person who sees Bob-eye when she reads Bobye? 😂

[wisdomandtreasures]

A lot of people have said they thought it was pronounced Bob-yay like Kanye. 🤣🤣🤣

[Faith-manor]

10 hours ago, Kidlit said:

Am I the only person who sees Bob-eye when she reads Bobye? 😂

Every time I see it, I think Bob Eye. This is just where my brain goes. I really do not know what some people are thinking when they choose these weird spellings for common names.

[Kidlit]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Every time I see it, I think Bob Eye. This is just where my brain goes. I really do not know what some people are thinking when they choose these weird spellings for common names.

Glad to know I'm not the only one!

[Drama Llama]

How is it pronounced?  I have only read it.  In my head it is either Bob eye or Boe Bee.  Is it Bobby?  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

13 minutes ago, BandH said:

How is it pronounced?  I have only read it.  In my head it is either Bob eye or Boe Bee.  Is it Bobby?  

It’s Bobby.

 

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

It’s Bobby.

 

How boring.

[Kidlit]

Crystal Paine shared her thoughts about it in her latest podcast.  I admit to being not an enthusiastic fan of hers (I once heard her say VERY adamantly and repeatedly  "STRESS IS A CHOICE"  at a homeschool conference, which was NOT what I needed to hear, and if memory serves me, I got up and walked out).  But she has personal experience with IBLP (any later Vision Forum) and I will say that she has changed a lot since that fateful conference 15+ years ago. 

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Kidlit said:

Crystal Paine shared her thoughts about it in her latest podcast.  I admit to being not an enthusiastic fan of hers (I once heard her say VERY adamantly and repeatedly  "STRESS IS A CHOICE"  at a homeschool conference, which was NOT what I needed to hear, and if memory serves me, I got up and walked out).  But she has personal experience with IBLP (any later Vision Forum) and I will say that she has changed a lot since that fateful conference 15+ years ago. 

Is she from the Money Saving Mom?  She had given up homeschooling before I stopped reading her blog.  I’ll have to listen that podcast episode, I didn’t realize she had grown up IBLP.  

Edited June 19, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Kidlit]

4 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Is she from the Money Saving Mom?  She had given up homeschooling before I stopped reading her blog.  I’ll have to listen that podcast episode, I didn’t realize she had grown up IBLP.  

Yes.  She said she had been to something like 20 conferences by the time she was a young adult.  (I don't remember details--something like that.)

[fairfarmhand]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/13/opinion/shiny-happy-people.html?searchResultPosition=10

 

Just sharing this article I read by David French about this serioes.

[dirty ethel rackham]

48 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/13/opinion/shiny-happy-people.html?searchResultPosition=10

 

Just sharing this article I read by David French about this serioes.

Bummer that I've used up all my free NYT reads for the month.